Mark Reason does not support England

First topic message reminder :

ENGLAND DO NOT DESERVE YOUR SUPPORT

What does team mean? Half a century and a world ago, the men who played for the local soccer team were a part of the community. You had a beer with them down the local pub. You might even have a job working alongside a few of them. Some sold insurance, some worked down the pits. But you knew them.
More recently rugby supporters would still have a beer with the players on a Saturday night after the game. It made them feel closer to the team and the players less remote. But then professionalism came along and the players were hauled off to schmooze the sponsors.
Less and less is the team part of the community. More and more is it an adjunct of business. I am not sure that this is what sport should be about. I am not sure why supporting a football team full of ridiculously paid foreign mercenaries should still fulfil a primitive tribal urge.
But at least playing for your country still seemed to mean something. The All Blacks are an important part of New Zealand and the Springboks have been a huge force in South African culture. But it is hard to say the same about England. They have become opportunist to a shameful degree.
Manu Tuilagi is a Samoan who came to England on a holiday visa and stayed illegally. Thomas Waldrom is a New Zealander who realised he would not play for his country while Keiran Read was No 8 and so became an economic migrant. He thought he would have to wait three years to fulfil the ludicrous residency rule, but then he discovered a grandmother.
Martin Johnson has said he will pick anyone so long as they are good. Once upon a time the RFU would never have allowed such a nonsense, but now they would sell their own grandmothers into slavery if it meant Daniel Carter could play for England and put a few more million on the bottom line.
I have no doubt that modern sport has saved many a man from a grim working life. But it has also become tarnished over the years.
And I hope Scotland win by eight points this weekend. This is an unlovely England side of mixed nationality that does not deserve your support.
From Mark Reason in Dunedin

Now I know this has been done to death but I just wondered about peoples opinions. I can see what he's on about and I think that this is one of the worst aspects of professionalism. Just thought I'd share it for anyone who doesn't get these...

screamingaddabs wrote:It's been covered SO MANY TIMES. This is not a slight on you McKay, I just find it astounding that the same argument keeps going over and over.

Someone will point out that actually only Hape and Waldrom have no genuine tie to the nation and say MJ should always pick the best available because otherwise he is being racist.

Someone else will antagonise the kiwis by saying they pillage the PIs

The kiwis will respond by saying actually the PIs pillage us.

Everyone will forget Australia and the fact they have had many a player form foreign shores.

Soon the English will invoke granny gate and point out that Budge Poutney was born in Southampton and qualified for Scotland by having a gran from the channel Isles so he could choose any home nation.

Then the Welsh will talk about how they have to due to being a small nation, then the NZers will say "well we don't".

Someone will then bring up that English guy who played full back for NZ ages ago and say they're as bad as the rest.

Then Everyone will pile on England because they have the most high profile cases and lots of people love to English bash.

It will end with a couple of posters getting week long bans or some such like and no one having changed their opinion.

Come on people, we can do it!

All we need is the "small nations need to do it", actually, we've had that too! So just the mention of the English guy playing for NZ and a couple of bans and I can shout BINGO!

Your choices are: Abbott, Tait, Allen, Farell, Erinlie, Hipkiss, Cipriani (apparently played a game there), Flutey, Tom May, Vesty, or Hape.

Add to that Jamie Noon, Farrell Snr and Ollie Smith. I remember the days when we all presumed that Abbott and Smith would be the partnership that took England to glory. Then the idiot Robinson took over and put the form OC in the prem (Smith) on the wing, Abbott got injured and we had a centre combination of Noon and Tindall. I'm suprised Hodgson didn't try to slit his wrists seeing as he was told to abandon his flat gain line attack (not that there was a lot of point fizzing flat passes to Noon and Tindall) and just to kick and play for penalties.

Yes You can quote players from Wales who weren't Welsh but I think Shanklin is probably ok being as his Dad played for Wales too....

Didn't his dad also play for London Welsh whilst living in England?

Our English youngsters are actually very good.

There has been great strides in this area but it wasn't always the case, the RFU have managed to set up a far superior youth system in recent years and have finally started to provide funding to clubs that bring through youngsters into their first team. It wasn't always the case though and certainly before 2003 the participation levels in youngsters and relevent success of our youth rugby wasn't as good as it is now.

They couldnt deport Tuilagi wover the visa issue, he wasnt here when it came to light...but I suppose that nitpicking.

What about that "Italian" lad who qualifies through a grandparent who renounced his citizenship so he could become Australian.

And so we go on ......

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:They couldnt deport Tuilagi wover the visa issue, he wasnt here when it came to light...but I suppose that nitpicking.

What about that "Italian" lad who qualifies through a grandparent who renounced his citizenship so he could become Australian.

And so we go on ......

Did you not read the rules? Everyone must forget about the Aussies!

screamingaddabs wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:They couldnt deport Tuilagi wover the visa issue, he wasnt here when it came to light...but I suppose that nitpicking.

What about that "Italian" lad who qualifies through a grandparent who renounced his citizenship so he could become Australian.

And so we go on ......

Did you not read the rules? Everyone must forget about the Aussies!

But hes Italian, he plays for Italy! Like Castro (The Argentinain resident of England)

Surely you can't mean the same Castro who turned down a return to his 'home' of Italy due to the fact that he now runs a successful chain of restaurants in Leicester....

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

But hes Italian, he plays for Italy! Like Castro (The Argentinain resident of England)

Fair enough - Can someone now question Paul Derbyshire. I mean he sounds like he was born in, well, Derbyshire.

What's that? He's actually Italian born?

screamingaddabs wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

But hes Italian, he plays for Italy! Like Castro (The Argentinain resident of England)

Fair enough - Can someone now question Paul Derbyshire. I mean he sounds like he was born in, well, Derbyshire.

What's that? He's actually Italian born?

Where was Nero " The Chin" Dayglo born, Wasperhampton surely ?

I think there are too many examples of so called foreigners for numerous countries for anyone to specifically criticise England.

True England shouldn't pick the likes of Hape and Waldrom. Not because they are foreign. They simply aren't that good and keep out young more talented players.

Manu Tuilagi is there on merit. He is also youthful. He's the best outside centre we have.

Wales are desperate to get hold of Englishman Ben Morgan so it would be pot calling the kettle black.

You could debate George North,Tom Shanklin,Toby Faletau but there is no doubt about Ben Morgan.

beshocked wrote:I think there are too many examples of so called foreigners for numerous countries for anyone to specifically criticise England.

True England shouldn't pick the likes of Hape and Waldrom. Not because they are foreign. They simply aren't that good and keep out young more talented players.

+1

Thanks aslongasbut100.

Also another point who is Mark Reason? Who cares?

It would be much more interesting if a famous celebrity like Lady Gaga,Sean Connery, Boris Becker or even Deborah Meaden from the Dragon's Den gave their thoughts.

Taffineastbourne wrote:I am happy for Welsh folk to represent me.I am unhappy when non-Welsh folk are selected to represent me.If I was English I would be hopping mad!

What about foreign-born people who have immigrated into the country and become an integral part of their communities? Do they not deserve representation?

mckay1402 wrote:Mark Reason is English so I can't see how this is either racist or Xenophobic. Perhaps rather than getting on the defensive you might be more concerned about how your RFU is failing to bring through players who are better than journeymen from the other side of the world.

Yes You can quote players from Wales who weren't Welsh but I think Shanklin is probably ok being as his Dad played for Wales too...

It's racial discrimination against people who qualify for England based on their place of birth: Flutey, Hape, Waldrom etc.

beshocked wrote:Thanks aslongasbut100.

Also another point who is Mark Reason? Who cares?

It would be much more interesting if a famous celebrity like Lady Gaga,Sean Connery, Boris Becker or even Deborah Meaden from the Dragon's Den gave their thoughts.

I would love if Lady Gaga commented on the number of foreign-born players in the England squad. Can we agree that if she ever does, whatever she says goes!

Hes the guy whos job it is to write stupid artciles when Stephen Jones is sedated

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/6440945/I-dont-want-my-son-to-play-rugby-union-...-its-too-violent.html

wrfc1980 wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:I am happy for Welsh folk to represent me.I am unhappy when non-Welsh folk are selected to represent me.If I was English I would be hopping mad!

So are you happy that Falatue represents wales? (no different to Tualagi
Or North represents Wales (No different to Shaw)
Or Shankling, Horseman, Charvis etc represented Wales?

If you are happy with the above you have no right to criticise England

Not many objective-minded people disputing Tuilagi or Shaw playing for England. Faletau has lived in Wales since he was seven and North lived in England up until the ripe old age of 12 weeks before growing up in Anglesey where his family is from. Shanklin and Charvis both have Welsh parents I believe.

It's cases like Waldrom that I think people dispute the most.

Knowsit17 wrote:

wrfc1980 wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:I am happy for Welsh folk to represent me.I am unhappy when non-Welsh folk are selected to represent me.If I was English I would be hopping mad!

So are you happy that Falatue represents wales? (no different to Tualagi
Or North represents Wales (No different to Shaw)
Or Shankling, Horseman, Charvis etc represented Wales?

If you are happy with the above you have no right to criticise England

Not many objective-minded people disputing Tuilagi or Shaw playing for England. Faletau has lived in Wales since he was seven and North lived in England up until the ripe old age of 12 weeks before growing up in Anglesey where his family is from. Shanklin and Charvis both have Welsh parents I believe.

It's cases like Waldrom that I think people dispute the most.

But the Celtlanders should be happy the useless fat lump is clogging up the England squad and the EDL racial purity crowd should be glad hes f'ffed off home. Everyones a winner.

Knowsit17 wrote:
Not many objective-minded people disputing Tuilagi or Shaw playing for England.

How are Shaw and Tuilagi in the same bucket? Was Shaw an illegal overstayer on a 6 month holiday visa too?

TheGreyGhost wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:
Not many objective-minded people disputing Tuilagi or Shaw playing for England.

How are Shaw and Tuilagi in the same bucket? Was Shaw an illegal overstayer on a 6 month holiday visa too?

No one said they were in the same bucket. If I said that no one objects to people eating chewing gum or to them eating leeks then that doesn't mean that both are types of vegetable. It just means people don't object to them, for different reasons.

TheGreyGhost wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:
Not many objective-minded people disputing Tuilagi or Shaw playing for England.

How are Shaw and Tuilagi in the same bucket? Was Shaw an illegal overstayer on a 6 month holiday visa too?

Has anyone checked GGs visa?

Will someone please mention that English guy who played for NZ, I need to complete the set. I would've thought with GG here someone would've mentioned it by now. Where's Hersh when you need him?

What I'm saying is that by putting Tuilagi and Shaw together you're trying to sneak Tuilagi in under the radar of the more legitimate Shaw.

Tuilagi is very contentious. For starters he's outed by the rest of his immediate family playing for Samoa, and the fact that he is in England as an illegal overstayer.

It makes a mockery of both England's selection policy and the home office's ability to track migrants.

Can't help but notice that illegal overstayers were thrown out of three English instant-celebrity TV programmes last year when their questionable status emerged. Can't believe that a lower standard has been applied to a national representative sports team.

beshocked wrote:I think there are too many examples of so called foreigners for numerous countries for anyone to specifically criticise England.

True England shouldn't pick the likes of Hape and Waldrom. Not because they are foreign. They simply aren't that good and keep out young more talented players.

Manu Tuilagi is there on merit. He is also youthful. He's the best outside centre we have.

Wales are desperate to get hold of Englishman Ben Morgan so it would be pot calling the kettle black.

You could debate George North,Tom Shanklin,Toby Faletau but there is no doubt about Ben Morgan.

Ben Morgan doesn't play for Wales and isn't even qualified so how can you even mention him?

TheGreyGhost wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:
Not many objective-minded people disputing Tuilagi or Shaw playing for England.

How are Shaw and Tuilagi in the same bucket? Was Shaw an illegal overstayer on a 6 month holiday visa too?

I never said they were, I was responding to somebody else comparing Tuilagi to Faletau and Shaw to North.

mckay1402 wrote:

beshocked wrote:I think there are too many examples of so called foreigners for numerous countries for anyone to specifically criticise England.

True England shouldn't pick the likes of Hape and Waldrom. Not because they are foreign. They simply aren't that good and keep out young more talented players.

Manu Tuilagi is there on merit. He is also youthful. He's the best outside centre we have.

Wales are desperate to get hold of Englishman Ben Morgan so it would be pot calling the kettle black.

You could debate George North,Tom Shanklin,Toby Faletau but there is no doubt about Ben Morgan.

Ben Morgan doesn't play for Wales and isn't even qualified so how can you even mention him?

Because Gatland told him he would play for Wales if he turned down the Saxons perhaps?

TheGreyGhost wrote:What I'm saying is that by putting Tuilagi and Shaw together you're trying to sneak Tuilagi in under the radar of the more legitimate Shaw.

Tuilagi is very contentious. For starters he's outed by the rest of his immediate family playing for Samoa, and the fact that he is in England as an illegal overstayer.

It makes a mockery of both England's selection policy and the home office's ability to track migrants.

Can't help but notice that illegal overstayers were thrown out of three English instant-celebrity TV programmes last year when their questionable status emerged. Can't believe that a lower standard has been applied to a national representative sports team.

Yesterday didn't you say you would have taken Tomasi Cama to the World Cup as back-up for Carter? Where was he born again? And who did his dad play for?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:Surprise, surprise. A Scotsman belly aching about England just before an Eng v Sco match. This topic is so passée. I can't believe any right minded person would have the nerve to raise it yet again.

Oh dear, he's actually English-born. But at least the rest of what you said is right - v v passé

Sorry to confuse things. I have no clue to the nationality of 'Mark Reason'. The Scotsman I was eluding to was McKay the OP.

Ah right Furr-ee m-uff

englandglory4ever wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:Surprise, surprise. A Scotsman belly aching about England just before an Eng v Sco match. This topic is so passée. I can't believe any right minded person would have the nerve to raise it yet again.

Oh dear, he's actually English-born. But at least the rest of what you said is right - v v passé

Sorry to confuse things. I have no clue to the nationality of 'Mark Reason'. The Scotsman I was eluding to was McKay the OP.

O Apologies, I wasn't intending to give the impression that I care who plays for England. I just thought it was interesting to hear an English man say what so many others have said.

My part of the world, anybody gobbs off about their own folk gets a reet scuddin'.

Blokes due for a good howkin.

Where does he live?

(bet its in London)

he lives in New Zealand...crack on son

I've no problem with Tuilagi etc - we've been an immigrant country for a loooong time - but think the rules are too lax when the likes of Waldrom get to play the system.

But the rules are as they are, and MJ has to work within them and pick those he feels are the best. If he feels it's Waldrom, then he has to pick him. It doesn't mean I have to like it.

However, it also seems to put gg's blood pressure up a notch or two, so it isn't all bad.

mckay1402 wrote:

beshocked wrote:I think there are too many examples of so called foreigners for numerous countries for anyone to specifically criticise England.

True England shouldn't pick the likes of Hape and Waldrom. Not because they are foreign. They simply aren't that good and keep out young more talented players.

Manu Tuilagi is there on merit. He is also youthful. He's the best outside centre we have.

Wales are desperate to get hold of Englishman Ben Morgan so it would be pot calling the kettle black.

You could debate George North,Tom Shanklin,Toby Faletau but there is no doubt about Ben Morgan.

Ben Morgan doesn't play for Wales and isn't even qualified so how can you even mention him?

Wales are actively looking at Ben Morgan as a prospect for Wales even though he is English through and through. He isn't Welsh qualified.

Agree with Peter Seabiscuit wheeler

http://www.thisissouthwales.co.uk/Morgan-urged-wait-Wales/story-12390236-detail/story.html

Martin Johnson might have picked Hape and Waldrom but he didn't actively encourage them to play for England before Waldrom found his granny or when Hape was play for NZ in rugby league.

Gatland is bending over backwards to make Ben Morgan a honourary Welshman. Will it work? We'll see.

he lives in New Zealand...crack on son

Any idea which number bus you can get from Newcastle Haymarket that goes down that way?

wrfc1980 wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:I am happy for Welsh folk to represent me.I am unhappy when non-Welsh folk are selected to represent me.If I was English I would be hopping mad!

So are you happy that Falatue represents wales? (no different to Tualagi
Or North represents Wales (No different to Shaw)
Or Shankling, Horseman, Charvis etc represented Wales?

If you are happy with the above you have no right to criticise England

Faletau - Born in Tonga has lived in Wales since he was 5 went to school in wales and played for Wales throughout the age groups a product of the welsh system - Tuilagi been in England 3 years educated in tonga has not played for England at any level other than senior international.

North born in England to mixed welsh English parents returned to Anglesy as a young child, is welsh speaking educated in wales and a product of the welsh system - Shaw born in Nairobi educated in Madrid did not play for any England sides until senior international but is at least a product of the English club system.

Shanklin, born in Harrow to welsh parents, father won 4 welsh caps played for wales' junior teams and is a product of the welsh system

Horseman is the only one of the guys you mention who is not a product of the welsh system and welsh?

not since grannygate in the 90s have wales played fast and loose with national qualification.

Charvis born in Sutton Coalfield to parents from Cardiff played for wales, youth, exiles, sttudents u21 started his club career at london welsh is a product of the welsh system.

"Tuilagi been in England 3 years educated in tonga has not played for England at any level other than senior international."

Wrong, he's been here about six years, he would have been educated both in Samoa and here, he played rugby here from Under 14s and played Saxons before getting a full call-up.

"Shaw born in Nairobi educated in Madrid did not play for any England sides until senior international but is at least a product of the English club system."

Nothing about his parents being English? He also received at least part of his education in England and didn't take up rugby seriously until he moved to England.

"not since grannygate in the 90s have wales played fast and loose with national qualification."

It's not about "playing fast and loose" with national qualification. Shaw, Tuilagi, Hartley, Flutey, Hape and Waldrom all qualify for England under current IRB regulations.

And it's a regulation that needs changing. Now that the game has gone professional there will be far more players following the money.
I think the residency ruling should be at least 5 years that would then give the home grown talent a chance of breaking through.

Charvis doesn't have Welsh parents. Played for Wales after claiming a Welsh grandparent that didn't exist. Another 'honest' mistake at the time.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-109692524.html

Seriously TycroesOsprey did you just guess and make some of it up? Or have you deliberately lied?

Also Shaw went to an English school in Spain. He's at least as English as Shanklin in Welsh