Kallis, da maan

Four years ago, I viewed Jacques, the batsman, as a one-trick pony. That he knew how to accumulate runs in a non-exciting manner.

When RCB loaded its IPL team with Dravid, Kallis, Chanderpaul, and Jaffer, I thought the team owner must have been in a drunken stupor to create what looked like a test team.

Since he got a new rug on his head, Kallis has transformed himself and adapted his technique and temperament to suit all forms of cricket.

In the ongoing Champs trophy league, Kallis leads his team in batting stats: 5 matches, 2 not outs, 192 runs, ave 64, SR 116. His 47-ball unbeaten 64 won today's game.

Kallis' stats in the past 2 years:

Tests - 14 matches, 1670 runs, 83 ave, 9 centuries
ODIs - 20 matches, 899 runs, 50 ave, 1 century
T20Is - 7 matches, 231 runs, 33 ave

I have a new-found admiration for Kallis, the versatile batsman.

What do others think of Kallis?

Great cricketer, no doubt about that. But he always lacked something for me. Maybe just the personality in his cricket, the flair or the swagger of a Richards or a Sobers. In terms of pure stats he is undoubtedly a great of the game but I think he will be remembered an echelon below those players.

Kallis is not flashy. Gets the job done without much hoopla.

When most people talk about the best batsmen in the past decade or so, the names that pop up are Tendulkar, Ponting, and Lara, but not Kallis. Not sure why his name doesn't register in memory.

Probably doenst help him that whilst hes been in some good sides SA have never really been a champion side. Sobers and Richards wre in colourful legendary sides.

Kallis may not be quite in the same bracket as TPL as a batsan, but when you add in his bowling he desrves to be up there as one of the greats of the current game.

Doing it in all three formats is the mark of true class. That at his age hes still bothered to adapt his game for a silly format in a foriegn domestic competition and bust a gut for his team is a mark of the guy. Sure hes payed well there but theres plenty who are hhappy to take the money and coast through.

Talking about Kallis as a batsman only, how is he not quite in the same bracket as Ponting, especially in test cricket?

Ponting: 154 tests, 12487 runs, 53 ave, 39 centuries
Kallis: 145 tests, 11947 runs, 57 ave, 40 centuries

Kallis is a great batsman but nobody apart from Lara has betted better than Ponting did in the middle part of the last decade.
Kallis has often played anchor in a team where IMO he should have maybe taken lead like Ponting and that's why Ponting is the better player.

Lara was a free-spirited batsman, but more often than not, he failed when his team needed him the most. His highest score of unbeaten 400 in Antigua came in the 4th and final test after West Indies had already lost the series 0-3, and Mr. Lara averaged 18 runs in 6 innings. Even the match in which Lara scored 400 ended as a draw. Of course, there were some memorable knocks by Mr Lara during his career, he was not a grafter like Kallis or Dravid, but he wasn't as dominating as Viv Richards.

Ponting is a well-rounded batsman with powerful pull strokes albeit a weakness against spinners early in his innings. He is a run accumulator, so is Tendulkar, and so was Bradman.

Every team needs an anchor. Kallis does it for SA, Dravid for India, Mahela for SL, and Barrington did so well for England.

Every team needs an anchor. Kallis does it for SA, Dravid for India, Mahela for SL, and Barrington did so well for England.

--------------------------------

But the other three had attacking stroke players around them. Kallis, certainly up until De-Villiers came to the fore, was the South Africa's best player who had/has all the shots and shouldn't have played anchor on so many occasions, IMO.
Great player though.

I cant see how Kallis being an anchor and not a quick scorer be held against him in Test Cricket.Kallis more reliable than Punter.So what if he scored slower?He was more reliable which is more important in Test Cricket IMO.
Kallis>Punter for me.Not saying Punter wasnt great.He certainly was but I would rather have Kallis.

Always preferred Ponting, but no denying both are true greats of the game.

I preferred watching Punter bat but I would rather have Kallis playing for my team.

OK whilst its clear the late career Ponting stats have dented his figures I was suprissed to see Kallis is in fact ahead of him in most departments. Maybe its the capatincy and the iconic sides that Ponting ahs been a part of plus the high profile big innings hes nmmade versus Kallis' dependability.

Its certainly hard to question that Kallis is anything other than one of the greatest players in the time Ive followed cricket.

What if Kallis and Ponting ended their test careers with the following batting averages?

Ponting 51 (2 runs less than current)
Kallis 59 (2 runs more than current)

Kallis seldom gets the popular vote.

Ponting has played his whole career amongst great batsmen and a bowling attack that could defend almost any total.

Kallis had to be the anchor of an SA batting line up and could seldom just go out there and dominate bowlers.

Two totally different roles for two quality batsmen.

Also Kallis is a back ground personality, maybe his new hair will give him a higher profile if not a lower hairline.

I think Shanky and Biltong have suimmed it up well.

Kallis is a fairly quiet character who has simply gone about having the best career his talent has allowed. Ponting has been a bit louder and more brash and is a more flamboyant player - Punter's probably the one who draws in more punters, but if you needed someone to perform reliably for your team, you'd take Kallis.

A bit similar to the comparisons between Lara and Tendulkar a few years ago - Sachin was the more reliable and statistically better, but somehow Lara was the one who could get your pulse racing.

biltongbek wrote:Kallis seldom gets the popular vote.

Ponting has played his whole career amongst great batsmen and a bowling attack that could defend almost any total.

Kallis had to be the anchor of an SA batting line up and could seldom just go out there and dominate bowlers.

Two totally different roles for two quality batsmen.

Also Kallis is a back ground personality, maybe his new hair will give him a higher profile if not a lower hairline.

I'd put Kallis' job as a good deal harder, though, given that he didn't have as much quality as Ponting around him to ease his load. And then add in the fact that for much of his career he was also serving as a front-line bowler.

A bit like Boycott, Kallis is under-rated because he's not flashy. He's a player you grudgingly respect, rather than admire.

Counter argument to that is that Ponting may well have better stats if he wasn't playing in as good a team, as I daresay there was many an occasion where he had to try and force the pace of a match in order to set up a declaration, something which Kallis would seldom have had to do for the majority of his career.

Fists
mate sorry but thats daft.Look at his numbers since the retirement of the greats.its clear that he was stronger when the greats were around.So the argument that he would have performed better in an inferior team is slightly baseless.

Ponting is also getting older. Some players like Kallis and Tendulkar seem to go on and on and there are some like Ponting and Viv Richards who lose it a little as they get older.
Blaming the loss of great players is to easy.

Stella wrote:Ponting is also getting older.

Are there any players who arent?

Kallis has lost his bowling but his batting has improved despite him being "past it". Measured over a full career his individual acheivements may well eclipse those of Ponting, but Ponting will always be remebered as a key memeber of the most dominant team in history.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Stella wrote:Ponting is also getting older.

Are there any players who arent?

Kallis has lost his bowling but his batting has improved despite him being "past it". Measured over a full career his individual acheivements may well eclipse those of Ponting, but Ponting will always be remebered as a key memeber of the most dominant team in history.

We all are, aren't we?

Maybe that's the reason he is not as good as he was rather than just losing his mates.

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:Fists
mate sorry but thats daft.Look at his numbers since the retirement of the greats.its clear that he was stronger when the greats were around.So the argument that he would have performed better in an inferior team is slightly baseless.

It isn't daft at all. Ponting is now past his best, that is why he isn't scoring as many runs as he was in his prime. My point is a relevant one.

Fists of Fury wrote:

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:Fists
mate sorry but thats daft.Look at his numbers since the retirement of the greats.its clear that he was stronger when the greats were around.So the argument that he would have performed better in an inferior team is slightly baseless.

It isn't daft at all. Ponting is now past his best, that is why he isn't scoring as many runs as he was in his prime. My point is a relevant one.

To much common sense from you fists

kalls is a world class all rounder, one of the best all rounders to ever play the game, if not the best. It staggers me when people question him, or say he isnt a great, he must be one of the most underrated cricketers ever, with both bat and ball, he has got south africa out of so many sticky situations in the past and still would, if they ever played a test match. and he can turn a game when on song with the ball.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Stella wrote:Ponting is also getting older.

Are there any players who arent?

Kallis has lost his bowling but his batting has improved despite him being "past it". Measured over a full career his individual acheivements may well eclipse those of Ponting, but Ponting will always be remebered as a key memeber of the most dominant team in history.

I think that really highlights Kallis' quality. Now that he's not bowling so much his batting has picked up. That despite the fact that he's nearing the twilight of his career. I have to wonder if the fact that he doesn't have the big scores of some of his peers is largely to do with the workload he's had.

Had he solely been a batsman I suspect he'd have scored more runs, more big scores, and there wouldn't be any debate as to who was the greater of him or Ponting.

cricketfan90 wrote:kalls is a world class all rounder, one of the best all rounders to ever play the game, if not the best. It staggers me when people question him, or say he isnt a great, he must be one of the most underrated cricketers ever, with both bat and ball, he has got south africa out of so many sticky situations in the past and still would, if they ever played a test match. and he can turn a game when on song with the ball.

I don't think anyone is questioning whether he is a great cricketer because he is. One of the best ever, IMO.
I just think Ponting was a better batsman.
I've seen Kallis come in two down with 150-200 on the board on a couple of occasions and he has always played in a conservative manner when the situation needed otherwise. He has the skills but for some reason never took on the challenge.
This is why I rate Ponting as the better bat.
Again, I do think Kallis is a great batsmen and allround player.

Kallis 40 centuries - SA lost 3 matches
Ponting 39 centuries - Australia lost 4 matches

It's not that SA ends up losing when Kallis scores a century.

Indeed, Ponting scores faster than Kallis, but it must be kept in mind that often Ponting batted after Hayden bulldozed the bowlers. Hayden's scoring rate was slightly higher than Ponting's.

Scoring rates of test batsmen who made at least 8000 runs.

Viv Richards 69
Lara 60.5
Hayden 60
Ponting 59
Sangakkara 55
Tendulkar 54
Inzy 54
Sobers 54
Mark Waugh 52
Mahela J 52
Gower 51
Laxman 49
Gooch 49

Leff wrote:Kallis 40 centuries - SA lost 3 matches
Ponting 39 centuries - Australia lost 4 matches

It's not that SA ends up losing when Kallis scores a century.

Indeed, Ponting scores faster than Kallis, but it must be kept in mind that often Ponting batted after Hayden bulldozed the bowlers. Hayden's scoring rate was slightly higher than Ponting's.

But Ponting's main aim was to put the Aussies into a position where they could WIN.
Kallis like I said has never really some out of his shell when he could have.

IMO, Australia's success was more due to the wicket-taking abilities of McGrath and Warne although Ponting made important contributions at times with the bat.

Stella, Can you back up your comment that Kallis has not come out of shell when he could have? Were there a pattern of him unable to score fast enough and thus contributed to failure of his team to win? Any examples?

Leff
I said in an earlier post that I've seen Kallis come in at 2 down with a few on the board and still bat in a almost sedate manner.
Whereas I've seen Ponting come in early and take the attack on in the name of the team.
Again, I'm not knocking Kallis as he's one of the best bats of his era, I just rate Ponting higher.

Stella wrote:Leff
I said in an earlier post that I've seen Kallis come in at 2 down with a few on the board and still bat in a almost sedate manner.
Whereas I've seen Ponting come in early and take the attack on in the name of the team.

When you say "take the attack on in the name of the team," it comes across that Ponting plays for his team's success and Kallis selfishly for his personal records.

I am not aware of many instances when Kallis came to the crease at 2 down with a many runs on the board and still batted in a sedate manner.

Leff
I seem to remember Kallis batting in a sedate manner against England in 2004.
Even some of the Saffer and English commentators were a bit bemused.

btw
I'm not saying Kallis is selfish but maybe lacked the confidence of a Ponting?

I recall that Kallis' slow scoring was a problem in ODIs and T20Is. For example, he couldn't accelerate scoring in the T20 WC match vs SL.

It's my sense that Kallis is underrated as a batsman in test cricket, perhaps because he lacks the charisma of former players like Viv Richards and the fanatic fan following of Tendulkar.