England v France pre-match debate

Well France were absolutely rubbish against Tonga.

And England dogged out a win against the sweaties on top of the Argies.

France are reportedly in near mutiny over the Manager (like in the last footy WC).

England yet to play convincingly against ant senior opposition.

France are always the les unpredictables.

England know how to play KO rugby at the very top level.

Personally I'm more worried about facing France than I ever was before the Scotland game (not during though).

I genuinely don't know which way this match will go, its been said many times before that France are France etc and on their day etc etc.

BUT under Lievremont they have been nothing shortof shambolic and his selections border on plain lunacy.

England have won their games but have struggled in 3 of them, yes winning is winning but will they be able to cope if France decide to play for a change.

After the Puma game everyone said (me included) that Johnny wouldn't kick that bad again but he did, if not worse. Scotland had two clear cut chances which France and Ireland/Wales are capable of taking.

So can France put in a preformance to rectify their sinking ship?

If France get two or more scores ahead have England got it in them to snatch victory when playing bad against a better team.

Time will tell.

England just need to start with their best team, it isn't hard. The best XV did not start today.

Stevens got mullered today, Cole just about coped, I'd like to see Corbisero start against France with Stevens on the bench.

Haskell is not good enough to play 8 against France, Moody has shown little except for enthusiasm, Bring back Easter and shift Haskell to 7.

Lawes is not good enough in the lineout, and as England need to secure every bit of their own ball, Palmer has to come back in with Lawes being an impact option.

The half-back pairing of Youngs and Wilkinson isn't working, it just isn't clicking and England look pedestrian at times.

Here there are a few options, drop Youngs for Wigglesworth and keep Wilkinson where he is. The positive to this is that JW brings a lot more to the game than kicking points - he was excellent today in every other facet of the game, the negative is that it could be a big ask for Wigglesworth to combat France in the WC QF.

Dropping Wilkinson and starting Flood is another option bringing the two Leicester boys back together and hopefully kick-starting a return to form for them both as they were in the first three games of the 6N. The negative with that one is that Flood is not the fastest and he's not the best tackler, playing with Old Man Tindall outside him that could open up the 10/12 channel for a bit of a pounding, that threat could be negated by switching Tindall for Hape, but that could leave England light on WC experience.

I'd keep the back three as they are but would like to see Armitage and Ashton coming in off the wings and looking interested in a bit more graft.

Who knows which teams are going to turn up for the QF, we know what they're called but that's about it.

I'm not full of confidence and felt after the warm-up games that England were QF standard this time out, I may be wrong, but only if France turn up and play the way they did against Tonga today.

It's not looking good.

Neither team has impressed during the pool games, however it would be england I would fancy for the win, France having lost 2 matches all ready has not built a habit of winning where as England have learnt how to grind wins against Scotland and Argentina.

biltongbek wrote:Neither team has impressed during the pool games, however it would be england I would fancy for the win, France having lost 2 matches all ready has not built a habit of winning where as England have learnt how to grind wins agaqinst Cotland and Argentina.

Thanks for the support Biltong Been to the pub?

Hi Pj, man look at my typing it is horrendous.

biltongbek wrote:Neither team has impressed during the pool games, however it would be england I would fancy for the win, France having lost 2 matches all ready has not built a habit of winning where as England have learnt how to grind wins agaqinst Cotland and Argentina.

Ever seen Germany in a footy WC ?

It's not the way you start, It's the way you finish Biltong. In the the meantime NH leagues are being reduced to rubble and a lottery. No more RWCs during a senior domestic season.

Hi boss, I did wonder with the combination of your confidence in England and inability to type......

Both our teams have had a tough final pool game, it does knock you back a bit going into the knockout stage doesn't it?

Still, I'm more confident in SA's chances of knocking out the Aussies than I am England's in beating France.

Potnoy, I feel a nearty debate coming on between me and you tonight.

Johnny and england will beat france.

Even though france can beat anyone on their day, this has been their worst performance in pool matches yet. Prior to this RWC they had a draw in the pool rounds in 1987 vs scotland.

We all know about thier loss to argentina in 2007 pool round.

Having lost vs NZ and Tonga today, I cannot see the French mentally pulling themselves together for this one.

PJHolybloke wrote:Hi boss, I did wonder with the combination of your confidence in England and inability to type......

Both our teams have had a tough final pool game, it does knock you back a bit going into the knockout stage doesn't it?

Still, I'm more confident in SA's chances of knocking out the Aussies than I am England's in beating France.

PJ nowhere on the internet can I find a bookie or "reputed" pundit or journalist that believes we are favoured to beat OZ next week.

My concerns are that frans Steyn has provided us with much needed go forward.

Jean de villiers for the past year has not achieved this for the stromers or the springboks.

And my biggest concern is Morne Steyn, in 2010 we lost two Tri Nation tests at home when leading both in the last 20, both times he did exactly what he did yesterday. he simply just kicks the ball away without any tactical idea on why he is kicking apart from just getting it away from the line.

No accuracy or tactical reason. I know in our last 6 tests vs OZ, NZ, WAL, FIJI, SAM and NAM we have only conceded 4 tries, but hell you cannot continue to defend for most of the second half.

Bog eared if I know.

France are plumbing new depths and surely the players are about to take matters into their own hands. If they do we will be in biiiiiiiig trouble. Man I almost want to see it!

England...well, I think the problems are not such as can truly be sorted in a week. It comes down to being perhaps a year behind where we'd like to be and THAT's down to the board over the last decade or so.

...the years the locusts on the board ate...

I think MJ played what he thought might be his 1st XV today. The Scots made things very difficult for much of the game and were very cute in the tight, always playing games on the opposite side from the ref. There's no side in the world that knows how to disrupt us better. Some of MJs picks looked good, others didn't. Delon is absolutely back to his best, I think!

So either side could win but England is more likely to as things stand at present. If we hear the French have revolted then I think France will have the edge.

biltongbek wrote:

PJHolybloke wrote:Hi boss, I did wonder with the combination of your confidence in England and inability to type......

Both our teams have had a tough final pool game, it does knock you back a bit going into the knockout stage doesn't it?

Still, I'm more confident in SA's chances of knocking out the Aussies than I am England's in beating France.

PJ nowhere on the internet can I find a bookie or "reputed" pundit or journalist that believes we are favoured to beat OZ next week.

My concerns are that frans Steyn has provided us with much needed go forward.

Jean de villiers for the past year has not achieved this for the stromers or the springboks.

And my biggest concern is Morne Steyn, in 2010 we lost two Tri Nation tests at home when leading both in the last 20, both times he did exactly what he did yesterday. he simply just kicks the ball away without any tactical idea on why he is kicking apart from just getting it away from the line.

No accuracy or tactical reason. I know in our last 6 tests vs OZ, NZ, WAL, FIJI, SAM and NAM we have only conceded 4 tries, but hell you cannot continue to defend for most of the second half.

You wouldn't have found any backing Ireland either Biltong

I'm picking England. Seems like France get far more motivated by playing SA and NZ than they do opponents they are familiar with, and despite England struggling they are still there. I'd expect them to grind out a victory over a French side that will still be misfiring next week.

biltongbek wrote:Potnoy, I feel a nearty debate coming on between me and you tonight.

Johnny and england will beat france.

Even though france can beat anyone on their day, this has been their worst performance in pool matches yet. Prior to this RWC they had a draw in the pool rounds in 1987 vs scotland.

We all know about thier loss to argentina in 2007 pool round.

Having lost vs NZ and Tonga today, I cannot see the French mentally pulling themselves together for this one.

Anyone. Just anyone who feels that any game against France is a foregone conclusion is a nutter and should be sent to a padded cell for rehab.

This is England against a traditional NH enemy. And this IS France.

I am hesitant to call it. I've only got hope.

Any EvNH rivals is sure to be close. And England going into any game as favourites against France is a bookie's dream.

To say Flood isn't the best of tacklers is very harsh. Despite his gangly, slight frame, he is a very good defender. Rarely see him miss a tackle, and rarely gets knocked around. He isn't the quickest, but isn't exactly slow either. (Is Wilkinson the quickest???). But that isn't in his game. He likes to challenge the defensive line, and make half breaks, looking for the offload and pop pass, as well as inviting on the strike runners over the gainline.

I feel that Wilko has lost his mojo, and that when the player who 'keeps the scoreboard ticking' doesn't keep the scoreboard ticking, its time for a change. Flood I feel would offer the team much more at the moment, particularly in attack. He also appears to be able to strike the bleedin' ball without the problems Wilko is having.

Youngs had a mare, but I think is unlikely to play that badly again, especially with his Leicester mucker outside him. Still a main threat if England can unleash him.

Stevens looked to be struggling, and I feel Corbs deserves a shot at the shirt, with Stevens returning back to super sub, as he covers both sides, and can add his loose game off the bench.

Lawes I feel is a luxury player, who isn't putting in the graft that is needed. Needs more work on that area of his game. Deacon has to do the donkey work for the both of them a lot of the time. Palmer in for Lawes, as I think Deacon/Palmer is our best 2nd row partnership, with Lawes adding impetus off the bench.

Other than that, there is a case for Hape at 12 over Tindall, as he can't really offer less than Tindall offensively, and won't shirk the defensive role. Can't see Johnno dropping Tins though. Likewise Moody, who needs to up his game. Haskell still doesn't have the full No8 skill set that a top international 8 should do, and he didn't threaten so much in attack this match, so is under pressure from both Easter and Waldrom. England could use Easters control and graft, and Waldrom's dynamism.

Good to see Croft growing back into his role, and putting himself about. Ashton, the consummate finisher as usual. With Armitage justifying his selection with a busy outing. And Manu Tuilagi had another excellent match. Where we would be without him is scary to think about.

Never know what you will get with the French, but I think England have enough to see them off. Need to improve the overall performance though. The crunch games start here.

Portnoy wrote:
Anyone. Just anyone who feels that any game against France is a foregone conclusion is a nutter and should be sent to a padded cell for rehab.

I have booked myself in for the week, the Doctor however doesn't have much hope, he reckons I should have come to him right after birth.

Neither France nor England IMHO know what their best team is,England seem to be keeping faith with Wilkinson but Wilkinson keeps missing kicks at goal. Now i am not saying that the kicks that Wilkinson missed was simple and easy, but any other time he would be hauled off and Flood brought on and the game seem to change for the better.

France, Well what can you say about France especialy after todays game?

Will they get better most likely, will they up their game against England, you bet they will.


Both teams will hav to play better in the next game if they want to move on to the semi finals. England are looking a better team than France at the moment but that could change with the blink of an eye if France play their best team with their best players Trindoc instead of Para at FH for example.

So looking forward to a great game, and to hopefully an England win.

maverickmak wrote:To say Flood isn't the best of tacklers is very harsh. Despite his gangly, slight frame, he is a very good defender. Rarely see him miss a tackle, and rarely gets knocked around. He isn't the quickest, but isn't exactly slow either. (Is Wilkinson the quickest???). But that isn't in his game. He likes to challenge the defensive line, and make half breaks, looking for the offload and pop pass, as well as inviting on the strike runners over the gainline.

It was really a comparison I was making Flood and Wilkinson maverick, JW is a better tackler and as they are both about as quick across the pitch, I was suggesting Flood and Tindall doesn't give me as much confidence defensively as Wilkinson/Tindall or Flood/Hape.

Flood offers the better attacking threat off front foot ball but we have to field a team that will get that element right to be sure Flood is the best option.

PJHolybloke wrote:

maverickmak wrote:To say Flood isn't the best of tacklers is very harsh. Despite his gangly, slight frame, he is a very good defender. Rarely see him miss a tackle, and rarely gets knocked around. He isn't the quickest, but isn't exactly slow either. (Is Wilkinson the quickest???). But that isn't in his game. He likes to challenge the defensive line, and make half breaks, looking for the offload and pop pass, as well as inviting on the strike runners over the gainline.

It was really a comparison I was making Flood and Wilkinson maverick, JW is a better tackler and as they are both about as quick across the pitch, I was suggesting Flood and Tindall doesn't give me as much confidence defensively as Wilkinson/Tindall or Flood/Hape.

Flood offers the better attacking threat off front foot ball but we have to field a team that will get that element right to be sure Flood is the best option.

This is the nub of the Jonny/Toby debate. I sort of make the analogy with wicket-keepers in cricket.

Jonny I'd compare with a great specialist WK who can restrict the opposition's score whereas Toby does most of those things but not quite as well but bats a lot stronger.

It was really a comparison I was making Flood and Wilkinson maverick, JW is a better tackler and as they are both about as quick across the pitch, I was suggesting Flood and Tindall doesn't give me as much confidence defensively as Wilkinson/Tindall or Flood/Hape.

Given Wilko is still a defensive rock, even if his tackling isn't as destructive as it was, and Tindall is imo there for his defensive and organisational capabilities not his erm attacking ones, then any combo we've got that replaces Wilko is weaker defensively. Flood threw the pass that put Ashton in...

I suspect very strongly that the reason Wilko was taking the kicks from way out was to give him practice with the ball. It still meant the opposition were playing from their 22 if he missed. And yes, he's worth it.

He's a fantastic player. His defence and defensive game management were very important in keeping the Scots out today. But I think the kicking is becoming a monkey on his back, and he and Youngs don't quite seem to know where eachother is (if you see what I mean)... I'm starting to think that Youngs-Flood should be our 9-10. We don't have the time to experiment with Wigglesworth-Wilkinson. Intriguing though it would be.

Quite simply I would like to see this team:

Corbs
Thompson
Cole
Lawes
Palmer
Croft
Moody
Easter

Youngs
Flood (Kicker)

Ashton
Wilko
Tuilagi
Armitage
Foden

Listening to the pundits Sean Fitzpatrick,Max Evans(or tom)Lawrence Daliho, they all said Wilkimnson should start against the Frence, because the Frence dispise Wilkinson.

The Frence may dispise Wilkinson but is that a good enough reason to star Wilkinson against France, or should Johnson be better off with Flood and youngs combo? And when Wilkinson went off he was holding his arm a bit gingerly, will he (Wilkinson) be fit enough to start?

Abit of an headache for Johnson i think.

Majestic, this is where Johnno will earn his dollar, me? I can tinker with the team for nothing.

Portnoy wrote:

PJHolybloke wrote:

maverickmak wrote:To say Flood isn't the best of tacklers is very harsh. Despite his gangly, slight frame, he is a very good defender. Rarely see him miss a tackle, and rarely gets knocked around. He isn't the quickest, but isn't exactly slow either. (Is Wilkinson the quickest???). But that isn't in his game. He likes to challenge the defensive line, and make half breaks, looking for the offload and pop pass, as well as inviting on the strike runners over the gainline.

It was really a comparison I was making Flood and Wilkinson maverick, JW is a better tackler and as they are both about as quick across the pitch, I was suggesting Flood and Tindall doesn't give me as much confidence defensively as Wilkinson/Tindall or Flood/Hape.

Flood offers the better attacking threat off front foot ball but we have to field a team that will get that element right to be sure Flood is the best option.

This is the nub of the Jonny/Toby debate. I sort of make the analogy with wicket-keepers in cricket.

Jonny I'd compare with a great specialist WK who can restrict the opposition's score whereas Toby does most of those things but not quite as well but bats a lot stronger.

Yeah, good analogy Portnoy.

I'm not a big fan of Hape's - mostly because I doubt his motivation in terms of playing for England, but outside Flood and inside Tuilagi he's a round peg in a round hole.

It's down to the management and coaching staff ultimately, whatever we all think wont matter a damn but I can't see Johnno dropping Tindall, Moody and Wilkinson for France. They'll all play and England will either win or lose, if they win they'll limp into the semis and have two games left, if they lose they'll be packing their bags and coming home and everyone and his dog will have an opinion on where it went wrong.

Hey-ho.