Who has the mental fortitude and the big game players?

Temperament is most likely the biggest singular factor when it comes to one off matches, teams with less talent, less depth and often weaker packs have managed to win important games in the past with sheer single mindedness and unwavering determination.

In fact there is no need to look far back, as this weekend have provided us with a prime example of when a team like Tonga takes on a team that they haven’t beaten since 1999.

France is consistently a “Big Five” member in world rugby and Tonga consistently ranked outside the top ten in the world rankings, yet this is the second time in their history of 4 tests against France that they manage to put one over them.

France have won two test matches against Tonga with an average points differential of 32 points, but yet Tonga have managed their two wins by beating France within a score. The only explanation I have is that mental fortitude was the deciding factor in those wins for Tonga.

The teams who will meet in the quarter finals are very closely matched and to start speculating on whether Pocock will get one over Brussow or Warburton over O’Brien or whether O’Gara will get one over Priestland is for all intents and purposes speculation at best, simply because an individual cannot easily out perform his opposition as an individual, a collective team effort is needed for any individual to shine on the day.

So the question for me is which team has the better mental fortitude for these knock out matches and who are their players with big Match temperament in other words their go to guys.

Wales vs Ireland
Ireland surely has the experience in their squad but Wales has the exuberance of youth. Will the experience of the Irish players with all their success in the club competitions pull them through?

South Africa vs Australia
Since the last world cup South Africa has won 2 Super VX competitions, a Lions series and a Tri Nations where as Australia has only this year won their first Tri Nation and super XV competition for 10 years. Will the experience from 17 players winning the last RWC still carry more mental fortitude than the recently confidence building wins for Australia? Have Ireland shown up Australia’s inexperience of their still very young team?
Argentina vs New Zealand
Will Argentina have any belief that they can beat the best team in the world? Surely New Zealand should not even be bothered mentally about Argentina, and surely the loss of Dan Carter is unlikely to affect them in this match?

England vs France
Can France’s players find within themselves the ability to rock up for this match? For me the biggest question about this clash. Surely England will feel confident in their abilities to outmuscle the French?

What do you guys think, forget about game plan structures etc. Who do you think will have the attitude and determination to bring back the team from the death when you are down by 10 with ten minutes to go? Can a team based on only a few recent successes have the belief to go all the way?
I am very interested to hear what you guys think.

south africa and england are both proven to be pretty tough comepetitors- so both fo them

We would have to say that ireland may have the edge against wles when it comes to temperament- they have competed better in biger gameds recently- wales form has only just arrived.

Nz will smash argentina, its a mismatch . They will win anyway

Sheer bloody mindedness can win sides matches... but I will add to that the caviat... if they can turn that attitude into tries.

I suppose the obvious example, as an England fan, is our RWC 2007. We got the final because of the squads sheer defiance of everyone else lambasting them at every turn, but then lost the final because we didn't produce any tries.

Another example is this weekends battle royal between Scotland & England. An utterly compelling slice of hard core battling rugby in a traditional NH trench warfare match up (actually that seems to happen a lot in England v Scotland games) but whilst the Scottish threw everything including the kitchen sink, the out house and would have happily clothes-lined their grannies to beat England, they couldn't turn the pressure into tries. Or they would have won.

But theories are theories and like rusty bullet holes, most folk have one.

Based on singlemindedness alone....

England to beat France.

Ireland to beat Wales.

SA to beat Australia.

Argentina have guts in spades but they're not going to get close to NZ.

NZ won't need much fortitude until the semi final. I think SA will edge a great match with the Aussies and their experience will tell. I wouldn't bet against SA being the first to successfully defend the cup.

Even an out of form England should beat this French side and they do have a sense of belief in their own ability. Yes, in the past French sides have shown the capability to surprise and turn peformances around quickly. This time I think the French are so out of sorts it can't happen.

Wales v Ireland is difficult to call. THe Irish have the experience and have shown the mental fortitude and they also have momentum. Wales are finding form and improving with each game but can they edge the Irish in an old fashioned scrap?? Maybe not. I want to dream of a Wales V NZ final and Warburton lifting the cup, but my head tells me I'll be watching NZ or SA running all over England.

SA vs Aus

When I look at the Aus team I don't see a team that has poor mental strength... rather one that has key deficiencies which allows so called lesser sides to compete & sometimes win. This deficiency is obviously their front five.

Against IRE, ENG in 07 etc they both lost out to teams who beat them upfront and Aus were physically unable to compete for the ball to get themselves in the game.

Matches like the 3N decider this year showed they have the bottle to put in the performances when it matters... as long as they have the personnel up front which allows them to play.

In terms of SA... lots of leaders, lots of cool heads, came back well against Wales and the lions 2nd test in 09.... but sometimes rudderless without Smit & Matfield.. given Smit will probably have to come off for SA to obtain victory, the alternative leadership will be severely tested.

Eng vs. FRA

England have it in droves..... they should have lost to both Argentina & Scotland and in both instances were down with minutes left.

The French can't mentally beat England out of the RWC, to win they have to literally blow ENG off the park. Can they do this... against ENG I can't see it esp. with a divided camp and the coach questioning the abilities of most of his players.
The French hate ENG yet they know that when it comes to KO rugby, ENG always have the upper hand. Even though JW hasn't been on top form, if the French see his name on the starting line up they will probably say its destiny to lose and not fight for it.

Metal Tiger wrote:
I suppose the obvious example, as an England fan, is our RWC 2007. We got the final because of the squads sheer defiance of everyone else lambasting them at every turn, but then lost the final because we didn't produce any tries.

Dont let Cueto read that



The team many people sem to be forgetting here is Ireland. They really see to have some agression and fire about them, and as we all know if they can picture its the English they are playing they raise their gam to another level.
You could colour me amazed if an NH team won the cup, but in terms of putting in big game performances and playing well above thir usual level Ireland are a team well capable of doing that in the tough games.
Wales we hear all the time about how on their day they can narroly lose to anyone, one thing thats often cited for that is a mental state of panic when they think they might actually win a game.
France are just a mess, I dont know about big game attitude but they certainly dont have the mentality to tough out a fight against a side with a 5th division player in it. Against New Zealand they came out storming and should have got an ealry lead but fell apart when they failed to ocnvert the pressure to points...a sign of ability but lack of charachter perhaps.
England, I dont know where this idea that they are a gbig game team comes form. Its the same as teh myth of Jonnys unerring nerve. The drop goal that singlefootedly won the world cup was only needed because hed had such a poor game up till then. The two tough games theyve had in teh pool stages were only hard because the team wasnt playing to its potential, when the pressure was on they struggled but in the end the gap in class showed. I see England as a team whos struggling when sides take it to them, just look at the Ireland game in the 6 nations. When sides sit back and let them play without pressure they can cut loose and bee dangerous, but it seems pretty easy to put them off their game. Its only because they have some real quality in the backs they got this far, not because they have a superhuman pack of battle harderened warriors and a kicker with nerves of steel.

As we all know though New Zealnders are chokers and cant cope with the pressure of referees or dodgy curries

There are two sides in world rugby that regularly play badly and win through sheer attitude, in my opinion: England and South Africa.

I think this is shown by the impression I have that though both Wales and Ireland are playing much better than England at the moment, a good many SH pundits still seem more worried by England.

nb that this is an impression, not a cast iron certainty.

Bokke bloodymindedness is practically a tautology... No further evidence required.

Cowshot wrote:There are two sides in world rugby that regularly play badly and win through sheer attitude, in my opinion: England and South Africa.

I think this is shown by the impression I have that though both Wales and Ireland are playing much better than England at the moment, a good many SH pundits still seem more worried by England.

nb that this is an impression, not a cast iron certainty.

Bokke bloodymindedness is practically a tautology... No further evidence required.

My argument would be that in playing badly though sides are showing a lack of mental fortitude, it they were menatly strong theyd be playing to the best of their abilities in the big games. Instead England get their knickers in a twist and make it hard for themsleves.
Ireland are showing the can bring their A game when it matters.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Cowshot wrote:There are two sides in world rugby that regularly play badly and win through sheer attitude, in my opinion: England and South Africa.

I think this is shown by the impression I have that though both Wales and Ireland are playing much better than England at the moment, a good many SH pundits still seem more worried by England.

nb that this is an impression, not a cast iron certainty.

Bokke bloodymindedness is practically a tautology... No further evidence required.

My argument would be that in playing badly though sides are showing a lack of mental fortitude, it they were menatly strong theyd be playing to the best of their abilities in the big games. Instead England get their knickers in a twist and make it hard for themsleves.
Ireland are showing the can bring their A game when it matters.

ermm i dont know. surely its about being able to adapt in game and get over the line when things arnt going great.

Rugby is a game about styles, certain teams have better styles against others, some opposition play to counter your threat(as scotland do against england) others play to there strengths in certain games.

I am not going to devalue irelands performance- but groups dont really matter as long as you top it. knock outs are when they really matter.

well see what happesn, ireland will and should have bags of confidence. England will if they can get past france.

if france beat england then irelnads confidence i am sure will drop, because they have a shocking record against france.

Good points biltong. For those reasons im picking england to come through but would much prefer wales or ireland in the final. A new finalist has got to be good for the game.

For the same reasons i should be picking SA over oz. Reason im not is for these reasons;
- oz have key players back with the key 6 players- pocock through to beale- all now playing
- theyve been beaten and have their backs to the wall
- SA have predictability and the defensive frailties that oz of any team can expose

The match will be as youve said. One of a battle of experience and temperament- something SA have in bucketloads... Versus one of outrageous cockiness and sublime skills.

The normal world cup template would have SA winning this but the brisbane effort against the ab's in the first half had a glimpse of what this team is capable of. The intensity was so powerful nz were taken by complete surprise and took until the second half to regain parity.
I think SA will get that this week in a way that SA will be reeling at the start.

Without the brisbane effort i wouldnt have thought this.

SA have had better pool play than oz but not a lot better and just may be feeling it after samoa a bit.

Either way and provided we beat argie, im looking forward to us meeting the winners and will gladly admit im wrong should SA win this.

mystiroakey wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Cowshot wrote:There are two sides in world rugby that regularly play badly and win through sheer attitude, in my opinion: England and South Africa.

I think this is shown by the impression I have that though both Wales and Ireland are playing much better than England at the moment, a good many SH pundits still seem more worried by England.

nb that this is an impression, not a cast iron certainty.

Bokke bloodymindedness is practically a tautology... No further evidence required.

My argument would be that in playing badly though sides are showing a lack of mental fortitude, it they were menatly strong theyd be playing to the best of their abilities in the big games. Instead England get their knickers in a twist and make it hard for themsleves.
Ireland are showing the can bring their A game when it matters.

ermm i dont know. surely its about being able to adapt in game and get over the line when things arnt going great.

Rugby is a game about styles, certain teams have better styles against others, some opposition play to counter your threat(as scotland do against england) others play to there strengths in certain games.

I am not going to devalue irelands performance- but groups dont really matter as long as you top it. knock outs are when they really matter.

well see what happesn, ireland will and should have bags of confidence. England will if they can get past france.

if france beat england then irelnads confidence i am sure will drop, because they have a shocking record against france.

Which side played well in the 6 nations "final"?
Which sides club teams won the HC finals against English ones recently?
Magners playoff finals?

Irleand have big game players.

I wouldnt like to predict a winner of either of the QF's or the semi on that side of the draw though.

On the other side although SA have a tough path I still think with the injury crisis the all blacks are suffering they could go and win the whole torunament.

what 6n's final?


but all the same i have mentioned that ireland have doen wvery well recently in the 'bigger games'

My argument would be that in playing badly though sides are showing a lack of mental fortitude, it they were menatly strong theyd be playing to the best of their abilities in the big games.

I see your point. And certainly I have less hair than I might if I did not watch England

But to me the real mental toughness shows when you aren't playing to the best of your abilities, for whatever reason, and you dog out the win.

Ireland and Wales are producing A games at present. Ireland in particular are a very tough outfit. Perhaps the toughest in the competition. But they haven't yet had the time to gain a reputation in the way I'd suggest England and SA have. Though they look as though they are laying a damn good foundation in this World Cup!

mystiroakey wrote:what 6n's final?


but all the same i have mentioned that ireland have doen wvery well recently in the 'bigger games'

"final" as in teh grand slam decider, a massive game for england in which they flumped utterly. "" marks denoting taht its not actually a final, I woudlnt have though that needed explaining.

Which side played well in the 6 nations "final"?
Which sides club teams won the HC finals against English ones recently?
Magners playoff finals?

Well, Ireland. But the mental toughness is shown when POC goes down out cold and BOD tears a hammy when ten points down and they go on and win. Otherwise they are just better and especial mental toughness isn't required.

It's possible that NZ's problem is that they are generally so much better than everyone else they never develop that special mental toughness needed when the poo hits the prop(ellor)...