What would make Vettel one of the greats?

Bonjourno!

2007 saw the arrival of one of the Formula Ones most talented drivers on the grid. His over taking prowess and ability to drive a car to the limit were obvious to the watchers of F1. Not only that there was a maturity and consistency that has grown within this driver. In such a short space of time he has risen from the back row of the grid where he proved himself and seized an opportunity at the front row of the grid and has ever since dominated the sport.

Now, Sebastian Vettel is ONE point from being crowned as the Youngest Double World Drivers Champion of all time. An amazing feat for somebody so young, but this Formula One superstar has been breaking records as long as he has been in the sport. The youngest point scorer, youngest fastest lap, youngest pole position, youngest winner and youngest WDC are just a few records that he holds in the short time he has been in F1. His place in F1 history amongst the greats is a certainty, but there is mass debate among the masses, especially here on 606v2, about whether or not he should be held in such high esteem with the likes of Senor Diaz, Senna and Prost.

Knockers to Vettel say that this driver was always going to win the WDC in THAT car due to it being the best car on the grid. Maybe so, but the way he has obliterated Mark Webber this year shows he has really raised the bar inside Team Red Bull Racing. First and foremost, you must beat your team mate. Vettel has done that handsomely. If the car was THAT good then Webber should be a comfortable 2nd. Only last year Webber was pushing for the title only to have it snatched away by 'King Vettel' at the last race.

Before Red Bull, Vettel won a GP in the Torro Rosso car at Monza in 2008 and it was then that people really started to take note of him. Baby Schumi' was his nickname because at that point it seemed the sky was the limit for this young talent. He earned his place in a front running Red Bull Racing Team with that performance in Monza alone. I would be surprised if either of the current Red Bull Reserve Teams managed to win a race now.

He defies belief in qualifying over one lap to extract the maximum from his car to set the perfect lap every time. He is the strongest qualifier on the grid right now as his raw pace knows no limits. This has led to some people calling him unfairly 'the lapper.' Especially in the race when he is lapping in clean air.

What people fail to see is this guy after he makes a pit stop and has to fight through the field to maintain position, it is clear that his race craft is up to scratch as he cuts through the field like a knife through hot butter. He has learned from the mistakes which earned him the title last year as 'the crash kid'. Other drivers contest the position as the 'crash kid' now as Vettel’s maturity has shone through. His overtake at Monza this year with wheels on the grass versus Senor Diaz is one of the bravest of the season. He is now considered one of the best over takers on the grid by many experts.

He has got it all, Tyre Management, Qualifying Superiority, Over Taking Skills, Maturity, Raw Pace, Drivers Intuition, Track Awareness, Consistency and many more attributes that will make him one of F1's top 5 greatest drivers.

The point of this whole article is one question: -

What would make Vettel one of the greats?

Well, if he stays at Red Bull and wins 12 championships then people will just say its the car. I believe he needs to do what Senor Diaz is doing at Ferrari, and take a team in mediocre limbo back to the top and win successive championships with another team. If Vettel does this then his claim to greatness will never be questioned.

This is only my opinion. What do others here think Vettel has to do to prove himself as one of the greats?

Forza Alonso!

Vettel has shown he is a very quick driver, both in qualifying and over the length of the race. He has though had the benefit of being in a car that has clearly been better than its rivals (at least in clear air) for most of the last two seasons - he has though taken the opportunities well to win the WDC in both years (it's only in the realms of mathematical possibility that he isn't already Champion 2011).

Last year there were several criticisms - appeared to be a bit of a car breaker, and his overtaking record was none too clever. Has been much improved this year, although there have still been some issues in races, such as his mistake in Canada allowing Button to take that win, but he has usually shown good sense in his overtaking moves in a car that is not ideally set up for passing (RB generally have a higher downforce and drag setup compared with other front running teams, allied with not the fastest engine - makes the car optimised for fast laps but not for working through traffic).

To go from a very good driver of this era to one considered an all time great? Mainly just needs time and consistent results. If he stays at RB and they keep giving him competetive cars, he will win races and titles. One thing is almost certain though - the advantage Red Bull have had this year won't stay as big in the next few seasons, so he'll get the opportunity to work for a title. If he can take a title in the way that (for example) Schumacher did at Benetton, then his status by comparison with the greatest will definitely improve.

Fairly simple for me.

I don't think any rational person would doubt Seb's qualities as a driver. He seems to have got over his "Crash Kid" phase and has proven himself a very capable racer. His sheer speed (particularly during qualifying) and his ability to look after his car and tyres during important phases of races has led to him converting a lot more pole positions into wins.

He has undoubtedly been one of the best drivers on the grid for the last two seasons and the only thing that really counts against him is the fact he has been driving the best car on the grid by some margin.

I think to be considered a true great, I think he'd have to become a triple world champion with Red Bull, or else go to a lesser team and turn them into winners, as Michael Schumacher did with Benetton and Ferrari.

dyrewolfe wrote:Fairly simple for me.

I don't think any rational person would doubt Seb's qualities as a driver. He seems to have got over his "Crash Kid" phase and has proven himself a very capable racer. His sheer speed (particularly during qualifying) and his ability to look after his car and tyres during important phases of races has led to him converting a lot more pole positions into wins.

He has undoubtedly been one of the best drivers on the grid for the last two seasons and the only thing that really counts against him is the fact he has been driving the best car on the grid by some margin.

I think to be considered a true great, I think he'd have to become a triple world champion with Red Bull, or else go to a lesser team and turn them into winners, as Michael Schumacher did with Benetton and Ferrari.

What a sensible post. I salute you sir

Agree with the vast majority of what's been said but until he actually has to compete 'on an equal footing' with Alonso & Hamilton week in week out then I still have my doubts. Also the failure & consistantly poor performances from his teammate Mark Webber have 'enhanced' Vettel's untouchable reputation to a level where people are comparing him to Senna, which inn my opinion is quite frankly ridiculous. He is talented, no doubt, and on his way to forming a quite magnificant CV within F1, however in this sport things change and as Murray Walker once said, ''Anything can happen in Formula 1, and it usually does''.

if we wins at least another championship especially in car that is not the best on the grid like schumacher did in the benetton in 94 and 95

I think most people would agree that Vettel is clearly a very talented driver and a very good driver, and everyone accepts that he far and away has the best car on the grid at the moment. So Vettel is obviously a good driver with the best car. To prove he is great however, as others have said, he will have to win the title with an adverage or poor car like Senna and Schumacher have in times gone by.

The way things are we will be waiting a while for us to get a chance to prove this unless he gets bored and jumps ship.

He seems to have got over his "Crash Kid" phase

A phrase by the great Muhammad Ali springs to mind:
"hitting power means nothing when there aint nobody in front of you to hit"

Vettel is renowned for his qualifying not his racing. Needs to be in a car thats not head and shoulders above the rest in qualifying trim in order to show off any supreme racing abilities - and even then that would be difficult in the current climate of F1 where the skill of overtaking has been replaced by the skill of preserving tyres. And unless this changes then I don't think they'll be making a film about him anytime soon.

SteveG wrote:

He seems to have got over his "Crash Kid" phase

A phrase by the great Muhammad Ali springs to mind:
"hitting power means nothing when there aint nobody in front of you to hit"

Vettel is renowned for his qualifying not his racing. Needs to be in a car thats not head and shoulders above the rest in qualifying trim in order to show off any supreme racing abilities - and even then that would be difficult in the current climate of F1 where the skill of overtaking has been replaced by the skill of preserving tyres. And unless this changes then I don't think they'll be making a film about him anytime soon.

Oh dear, so many things wrong with this.

First off is that Vettel HAS shown he's more than capable of mixing it up and getting past people when he has to - prime example being his overtake on Alonso at Monza. There have been plenty of others thoughout the season. One of the commentators said at the last race that it was the FIRST time this season Vettel has led a race from start to finish...meaning he's had to pass people at all the others.

Are you saying Michael Schumacher's title wins with Ferrari, when he was regularly disappearing into the distance don't count and that he won't be remembered as one of the greats because of this?


Secondly, you clearly haven't been paying much attention lately because racing now is very much NOT just about tyre preservation. You still have to pick your moments to use KERS and DRS and as we've seen from the number of shunts involving Hamilton, Kobayashi, Massa, Schumacher and others, it still takes a great deal of skill and judgement to make a clean pass.

Thirdly, documentaries are usually made after a driver's career is over. Vettel's got a long way to go before he retires and we have no idea what he will acheive between now and then. If he equals or beats Schumacher's title haul, I'd say he'd be worthy of one.

Oh and fourthly, I believe Ali was referring to the fact he could dodge and weave so well, his opponents had a hard time hitting him.

Actually a very good analogy to use for a racing driver whose skills and equipment make it equally hard for the competition to get close to.

I know what Ali was referring to - he used the phrase in the run up against Foreman Zaire. I just turned it round a little to describe - in a light hearted way why Vettel doesnt crash anymore - because he has nobody in front of him to hit. Boom Boom.

I agree Vettel has pulled off some moves this season - but its only the Alonso one that springs to mind - and yes it was better than good. But for me the bedrock of his success this season is still qualifying where he has been untouchable. I want to see what he's like when he no longer has such a huge qualifying advantage and has to start 2nd row, 3rd row or whatever regularly race after race.

And IMO F1 IS now all about tyre preservation simply because you no longer race hard to overtake - its about passing 'sitting ducks' with fresher tyres and using the DRS zone (you don't pick your moment - the zone is allocated - but I agree with you on KERS). Of course its all still racing in a sense but now if you race hard to overtake someone who is just as fast as you then its an early trip to the pits. Period. As for the shunts - I don't believe many of them have had anyhing to do with DRS - most DRS moves seem straight forward enough - the overhead shot of Button and Webber passing Schumi in the closing stages at Canada was an awesome example of the difference in speed between defending and following cars in the DRS zone.