England's problems and potential solutions

There is no doubt England have been poor in the world cup. Why?

Who do you think are at fault?

Is it the lack of talent in English rugby? Not in my opinion. In recent years we have consistently been one of the best countries in JWCs, have been arguably the best in the U20s 6 nations. Could it be the England management not picking enough of the best players in the AP?


It does strike me as odd that the England juniors match the SH on a regular basis, beating South Africa and Australia yet our seniors look clueless.

Is it simply poor selection in key areas?

Glaring weaknesses like the backrow and centres stand out like a sore thumb.

A heavy reliance on out of form players like Youngs and Wilkinson.

Why do England's players seem so mediocre?

Do you think it's the gameplan?

Why are the Welsh and Irish playing so well and we aren't? I cannot believe that their players are simply better. If they were we wouldn't trounce Wales' juniors on a regular basis.

Is this going to turn into another one of your moans about the RFU ignoring Saracens players again?

Look.... you've already proved that you can buy the premiership. But as most of the Sarries starting XV are Boks they're not really elidgable for England are they now.





Ahhh you know I'm just teasing you B!


Please do go on.

Well, we are 6Ns champions, through to the QFs if the RWC without defeat (and having conceded one try in 4 games) and have home and away wins over Australia in the last 18 months, so obviously the problems we have are insurmountable.

There are big differences in the level of organisation in defences between junior and senior level, and at Junior level simply picking the biggest guys you have will take you a long way.

There are certainly a few problems that need addressing, which relate to strength in depth and to the selection mindset.

Yes, we are relying on Youngs, who is not in great form having just come back from injury, but who else do we have to pick there given Care's enforced absence from the tournament? Wigglesworth is an OK stop gap, but is not going to set the world on fire, and Simpson is a promising youngster but has some technical aspects of his game to work on.

Similarly, at 10 it really is a case of Flood or Wilkinson - next nearest the squad was Hodgson, and we know what his international form has always been.

The only position where I think serious selection errors are playing a part is at 12, and I accept that Allen, Barrit, 36 or even Jordan Turner-Hall should have been getting an opportunity in the senior side over the last year or so rather than the limited Hape or the out of form Flutey. It's the one position where MJs initially conservative selection policies still cause significant problems.

As for the back row, the main issue is at 7. Moody is an experienced player and a good leader by example, but is not a truly world class openside. Rees could have been, but seems to be made from the same breakable material as Wilkinson was between 03 and 07, Fourie is limited and Steffon Armitage got his chance and didn't really take it. Robshaw, along with Wood, Haskell etc is really better suited to 6 or 8 but could do the job if needed, but is that better than having Mad Dog Moody there?

8 we just don't have many great options, although Haskell has generally done a good job other than on a retreating scrum. Croft at 6 would make most sides in the RWC.

No Metal Tiger. There are obvious benefits to the RFU ignoring our players. Just look at the AP table.

Also because other international sides have picked our foreigners during the world cup more English youngsters have been given opportunities.

No I mean for example what's to blame? Is it the players? Martin Johnson?

Who decided that Wilkinson was going to repeatedly go for tough kicks instead of kicking for touch? The captain? MJ?

Was it Wilkinson himself who repeatedly wanted to go to drop goal or was it MJ?

Why is there a lack of leadership?

Why can't the backrow do their job properly?

Why is everything going pear shaped?

England no longer hold the dominance in the pack. What do we do?

Why can't England play like a team or well?

Dummy Half you are correct but do you really think the backrow holds up well against the Welsh, Irish,French,Italians,Scottish and Argentinians?

I don't think so. The Argentinian and Scottish backrows caused us all sorts of problems.

In a round about way, you are right B.

Games have been very tight, no clear dominance because the opposition have some damn good players too and this is possibly one of the most competitive RWC in it's history.

4 NH sides all with a good shout at getting to the final.

Is that such a bad thing?

Jeepbus Beshocked,

Youngs was in form only a week ago.,..whats Johnsons suppossed to do , replace him after 5 minutes?

Same goes for Wilko, he got the starting bearth because he was on form. The pronblem with him isnt really teh quality of his play anyway, its his stayle and teh gameplan England tend to go for with him on and standing deep. I think this added to Youngs' problems too, hes used to having Flood outside him and seemed to be looking across waiting for the runner to appear who was stabnding back eyeing up a drop gial instead at times.


Its too late now to whinge about the make up of the squad, look at whats there.
I would like to see Youngs Flood restored, Cueto will have to come in , the question is then Tindall vs Hape. With no Wilko I dobt that would happen.
Swapping the backrow around with Easter regaining his start place if hes fully fit and moving Haskell to 7 where he can keep doing his good work without the need to worry about his lack of 8 skills would be good...but Moody as capatin is hard to replace ( and he is underarted as a player)

The main thing is to get teh focus back and stop worrying so much about the opposition.
Look at the positives, no other side has only conceeded one try in the tournamnet and they came out of a group with two loseable games unbreaten with one of the best points differntials in the torunement.

For a side who havent yet found their best they are doing fine, but yes they do need to improve.

France are a side who should suit them a bit more. They are not so likely to look to drag england into a wrestle and may give Youngs a little more space to get his backline into the game. When England do that they are very diffficult to contain for anyone.

beshocked wrote:
Why are the Welsh and Irish playing so well and we aren't? I cannot believe that their players are simply better. If they were we wouldn't trounce Wales' juniors on a regular basis.

England are playing the exact same way they played in the 6N. Ireland have been bolstered by key returning players like Kearney and Ferris and Wales have improved markedly since having a strong preseason and the emergence of young talent. The Irish players have won everything else in the game and have been preparing for this RWC for 4 seasons and are now producing the performances that everyone knows they are capable of.

There's not much to it really. England scraped past Scotland in the 6N and did so here and are still unbeaten. I'm not sure what the confusion is?

Criticism of England is exaggerated. We've not played brilliantly so far in this tournament but have been putting some good results together and have scored rather a lot of nice tries while conceding only one. Under Johnson's tenure results have improved significantly, which is not to say I don't agree with some of his selections, but I do think he deserves more of a than some on here are giving him.

I also think we're criticised more harshly than other teams. What's the betting that if England had got Ireland's no-tries win against Australia all the talk would have been of "negative England" playing "anti-rugby"? I'm pretty sure that was what I heard after the Georgia game when we put six tries on them, while Scotland were lauded for another tryless victory over the same team! Genuinely baffling.

And with regards to the youth-team success – that's a relatively recent phenomenon. Youth team players obviously take time to grow into senior players and so we are only just beginning to see the benefits of that success. We can expect to see more in years to come.

let's see what happens in the quarters. If it comes to an England v Ireland/Wales semi I'll be nervous, but I think only a fool would make the celtic side strong favourites given recent results.

"Well, we are 6Ns champions, through to the QFs if the RWC without defeat (and having conceded one try in 4 games) and have home and away wins over Australia in the last 18 months, so obviously the problems we have are insurmountable."

Agreed...we have made big improvments over the last few years. MJ has turned us into a team that is difficult to beat. We are still some way to go..but above shows the improvement.

"Yes, we are relying on Youngs, who is not in great form having just come back from injury, but who else do we have to pick there given Care's enforced absence from the tournament? Wigglesworth is an OK stop gap, but is not going to set the world on fire, and Simpson is a promising youngster but has some technical aspects of his game to work on."

Youngs might be in or out of form....but for me this is a leadership issue. Every man and their dog could see that Ben was taking 3/4 steps before firing a pass way above johnnys head most times. Why did someone (Moody) not get hold of him and say hey...calm yourself down...get your hands on the ball and pass...basic and simple.

"As for the back row, the main issue is at 7. Moody is an experienced player and a good leader by example, but is not a truly world class openside. "

Moody is not a good leader....he flies in to tackles....missing them more than not, and offers little but courage. That wont win you games. And he showed absolutely no captaincy material on Sat. He needs to be removed from the squad. As i mentioned on a previous thread...give it to Croft for the remainder of the tourney and choose our new captain after.

"Steffon Armitage got his chance and didn't really take it. "

Not he didnt. He got barely anytime at all. And i believe he is the one that could really have made that position his own.

"8 we just don't have many great options, although Haskell has generally done a good job other than on a retreating scrum. Croft at 6 would make most sides in the RWC.."

Haskell is gone post WC, and Easter is slowing down. We need to identify the new No.8. Narraway, Guest, Fearns, even Gray? There are options...but one of them needs to really stand up. I think we need to look at the whole make up the back row.
Several young kids are putting their hand up for the 7 spot in the premiership at the moment. Lets keep an eye on them.

Peter seabiscuit wheeler when has Youngs been in form? Sure he looked good against Argentina but he had an easy ride when he came on. Fair play he made the most of it but since then he has been average at best, awful at worst.

Wilkinson is meant to bring reliability,accuracy and a different gameplan to the table. He has been lacklustre at best. You can't simply wipe away the 5 misses against Argentina and the appalling performance vs Scotland. The problem is Flood has hardly been on fire either.

Call me a whinger if you want. Bury your head in the sand. I am trying to get down to the brutal reality of what's currently wrong with England. Best to forget I am an ardent Saracens for one second.

There is no doubt England has some quality players. Quite a few from Leicester too but are they firing on all cylinders? Of course not!

Should we have struggled to beat Scotland and Argentina like we did? No.

Scotland were limited opposition who barely threatened us in attack. Why didn't we go for the jugular?

I am trying to get to the bottom of this because if we get past France which we should Wales and Ireland will be tough cookies to crack.

roddersm Ireland looked rubbish before the world cup started bar the England game in the 6 nations. Now you are in great form. England currently don't look like they will beat Wales and Ireland. Something needs to change.

Eustace H Plimsoll I agree it's nice to keep on winning but you have to look at the bigger picture. We want England to regularly be competing with the SH sides.

beshocked wrote:
roddersm Ireland looked rubbish before the world cup started bar the England game in the 6 nations. Now you are in great form.

Again not exactly true. We struggled to adapt to the breakdown laws in the 6N and were missing a load of key players though injury (Ferris, Bowe, Kearney, Murphy,Heaslip, Flannery) for the initial games whilst others were coming back from injury(O'Connell, Heaslip, Bowe) and were short of match fitness.

The variation has been nowhere near as profound as some imagine. This has been a superb year for the Irish provincial sides and despite a lacklustre 6N and AI most of the Irish players have been in superb form this season and this is now the culmination.

1) I do not think things are as bad as people want us to believe.
2) I believe that the failings of the England squad are down to the quality of English players throughout the AP.
3) This is especially so at open side and in the centre.



WHAT! BUT WE ARE GOOD AT U20!

Of course we are - with the biggest pool of players we should be able to produce good age group teams where you are usually restricted to a single age group. We still get outplayed by NZ though. To then produce a good Full side you need to produce a couple of quality players each year. We produce a lot of decent players, but very few quality players.



The English game is full of good (and very good) club players, but very few players of true international quality.

Looking at the back row - out in NZ we have 3 very good 6s in Croft, Haskell & Wood and a decent 6.5 in Moody. Real weaknesses at 7 and 8 - but who is there left behind to play there?
The standout 7s this season, have been Seymour (who had to leave Sarries to get game time) and Wallace (who was unkown in August). robshaw and Dowson are damned good club players, but are not international 7s - could do a job at 6 but not really needed there.
How about No8 - not sure we have many fit No8s who will be challenging for the 6N.

Then Centre - we have a serious problem there. Brian smith has gone on record to suggest that Manu may be the answer at 12. Last seasons form 12s were Barritt (who I would say deserves a chance - but of course it increases the SA quota in the squad) and Allen (who is a very good club player - but should not play for England). JTH is limited, Trinder and May at Glocester may develop but need to be starting for their clubs regularly.


To sum up, in 2003 we had world class players, in 2011 we have not.

cheer up...you are a bit hard on England I think. there is nothing wrong in a close win against Argentina and Scotland. at least England is showing consistency and confindence this year unlike another NH team...
in terms of players , england has nothing to envy the other home nations (well appart from the backrow maybe). they have a few class players and the addition of tuilagi was a very good move. the only disapointment is maybe the scrum that should do better.

beshocked wrote:Scotland were limited opposition who barely threatened us in attack.

Really, I can recall three try scoring chances that Scotland had (and blew), whereas England had one (and scored) - the difference between the sides on the day

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

beshocked wrote:Scotland were limited opposition who barely threatened us in attack.

Really, I can recall three try scoring chances that Scotland had (and blew), whereas England had one (and scored) - the difference between the sides on the day

yep England have backs who can convert chances but had a fly half intent on kicking drop goals.

Scotland couldnt score in a brothel with 50 quid notes stuffed in their pants

That was the difference

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

beshocked wrote:Scotland were limited opposition who barely threatened us in attack.

Really, I can recall three try scoring chances that Scotland had (and blew), whereas England had one (and scored) - the difference between the sides on the day

yep England have backs who can convert chances but had a fly half intent on kicking drop goals.

Scotland couldnt score in a brothel with 50 quid notes stuffed in their pants

That was the difference

Not quite how I would have put it, but I'm not arguing!

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Scotland couldnt score in a brothel with 50 quid notes stuffed in their pants

At present...who is nailed on starters:

3 Cole
6 Croft
13 Tuilagi
14 Ashton
15 Foden

That leaves 10 other positions that currently have 2 or more people challenging for - due to neither player being world class.
Despite this we are 6n champions and in the WC 1/4's.

Post WC hopefully we can add more players to that 5.

aslongasbut100ofus England did look more dangerous with ball in hand when they actually backed themselves and didn't kick it.

England needed to score a try so they did. Same against Argentina. When there is a sense of urgency England play better but most of the time the team looks too relaxed.

whocares I think the backrow is arguably the most important unit in rugby. England's backrow has been outplayed on numerous occasions this year.

beshocked - but who should play in the back row?

That's the tough question Londontiger.

I suppose with the players we have

6.Croft
7.Wood
8.Haskell

The difficulty is that 6 is normally a powerhouse player.

Corft is different to that. So we need to balance it out. Wood is a far better player than moody. So needs to start at 7.
That means really we need a beast / powerhouse at 8...which brings you to why Mj has always played Easter at 8.
Is Haskell got the sheer bulk and power to play that role at 8?

I think this is the areas that needs to be looked at after the WC...

I suppose part of the problem is Johnson not picking the best XV.

Thoughts of an outsider for you if you so wish to read...

I think England have been clinical enough yet well off form. Not a single convincing performance since the Italy match in the second week of the six Nations.

They have struggled against decent sides and not really been clinical in destroying smaller teams. Similarly with France, their next rivals, though France have very different issues internally to England.

Earlier this year they launched into the Six Nations against Wales playing superb rugby and put in two convincing wins, which bar two wins over Australia and a decent performance in the second half against the All Blacks was the best we had seen from England since November 2003.

To get further in this RWC England need consistency. So I think selection is actually very simple.

Corbisiero has been a fantastic find for England, likewise Cole, though Cole has struggled with form. Stevens has proved he isn't up to International rugby at this level when he struggled terribly against Scotland.

Hartley and Thompson both look average when they start, whoever comes on at 60 mins looks the better. one will play one will bench.

Second row should be Lawes and Palmer, they have made the most impact.

Backrow is down to three men, Croft, Haskell and Wood. None of the other players have done anything of note in recent internationals.

Halfbacks should be Youngs and Flood, they play the best as a combo, England just have to hope they gain more than parity up front because Flood and Youngs struggle desperately on the back foot.

Centers are Tuilagi and AN Other, probably Hape...! Tindall showed against Scotland that he isnt up to it any more. These two are the only other options unless either flood or Wilkinson got to 12...!

Back three will be Cueto, Foden and Ashton. All three must be begging the rest of the team to actually use them.

If England had played with any intelligence they would have put twenty points on Scotland.. THe English back three are superbly talented and proven finishers. But the inside backs have no clue how to get them into the game. Even against Weak sides like Romania and Gerogia.

1. Corbisiero
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Lawes
5. Palmer
6. Croft
7. Wood
8. Haskell
9. Youngs
10. Flood
11. Cueto
12. Hape
13. Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Foden

Maesteg

Don't disagree with much of your post or the team you picked (other than Hape - Hartley or Tommo seems to be a coin toss every week, and as you said, it always looks like the guy coming on at 60 minutes plays better).

England are still a team in development, sometimes capable of really good rugby and sometimes over-powered at the breakdown (SA and Ireland last year). At least we now have the happy knack of winning close games without playing that well (France, Scotland in the 6Ns and Arg, Sco in the last few weeks) - having a dangerous back 4 certainly helps because we don't need to create that many chances to score tries (Manu has shown good ability both to create damage himself and to link to the other backs - problem against Scotland was he only got the ball about 5 times, similar to the back 3).

I think against Scotland, Argentina and Georgia (all power sides), we'd have done better with a back row of Croft, Haskell and Easter, but think your selection of Croft, Wood and Haskell is a better match up to France and whichever of Wales or Ireland we would meet in the SF (quicker and more dynamic, better suited to a more open game).

Half backs - I don't think Youngs passing will be as wild again as it was last weekend (not sure what happened there - he's usually got a reasonably accurate pass, but was firing a lot of them high over runners heads), and he needs to be encouraged to look to carry more as well. Flood just seems better able to bring the other backs in to play at the moment - with Flood playing I have no issue with Tindall continuing at 12 (if fit - apparently still carrying a dead leg). The only other option I can see is for Wilkinson to continue at 10 with Flood playing at 12. For me, Hape just doesn't offer that much of anything, and was really the wrong player for the squad.

Youngs, Flood and Jonny have not exactly covered themselves in glory so far but the real problem lies with the forwards. Lineout pretty good but scrum and breakdown has been consistently average. Both Stevens and Cole were looking at their backsides nearly every scrum leading to slow or no ball for the halfbacks. The backrow is too lightweight and the main problem is Moody. He has been ineffective to put it mildly.

dummy_half wrote:Maesteg
England are still a team in development, sometimes capable of really good rugby and sometimes over-powered at the breakdown (SA and Ireland last year).

This England team, the basic fulcrum of it has been playing together since they lost to France in Paris in 2010. The Youngs, Flood, Foden, Ashton spine in the backs, Cole, Hartley, Lawes, Easter, Croft etc spine in the forwards, with no new faces in the squad around them. Players have interchanged through form and fitness but the Squad has been together for a long time.

In that time they have beaten Australia home and away and won the Six Nations, no more no less. That is not a team in development, that is a team performing.

Do you think they can be a better side than they currently are? They have looked very much the same team in most of their games. Neither improving or really getting worse.

Do you think they can be a better side than they currently are? They
have looked very much the same team in most of their games. Neither
improving or really getting worse.

I think they can be a better side after the World Cup when we sort out the IC position. Plenty of people who could come in there eventually.

Sorry i meant in the World Cup.

What happens after is barely relevant right now. Unless you think Martin Johnson has his selection wrong?

Should england have taken a gamble on some untried players like Twelvetrees, Barritt or Turner-Hall...?

It seems to have worked wonders for Wales.

maestegmafia wrote:Sorry i meant in the World Cup.

What happens after is barely relevant right now. Unless you think Martin Johnson has his selection wrong?

Should england have taken a gamble on some untried players like Twelvetrees, Barritt or Turner-Hall...?

It seems to have worked wonders for Wales.

Guys like Warburton, North, Lydiate etc are exceptionally talented though, which isn't necessarily true of ours, though they could be. Turner-Hall has looked particularly good recently, but would he work well with Tuilagi? Twelvetrees could play well with him, but apparently has struggled somewhat for Leicester at the beginning of this season.

I think that you can only take so many rookies to a world cup, and Twelvetrees/Turner-Hall weren't in good enough form to get selected for the six nations.

Haven't really watched enough of Barritt to comment.

tomathy wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Sorry i meant in the World Cup.

What happens after is barely relevant right now. Unless you think Martin Johnson has his selection wrong?

Should england have taken a gamble on some untried players like Twelvetrees, Barritt or Turner-Hall...?

It seems to have worked wonders for Wales.

Guys like Warburton, North, Lydiate etc are exceptionally talented though, which isn't necessarily true of ours, though they could be. Turner-Hall has looked particularly good recently, but would he work well with Tuilagi? Twelvetrees could play well with him, but apparently has struggled somewhat for Leicester at the beginning of this season.

I think that you can only take so many rookies to a world cup, and Twelvetrees/Turner-Hall weren't in good enough form to get selected for the six nations.

Haven't really watched enough of Barritt to comment.

Against Samoa Wales had seven players under 24 in the starting line up. England have only four players under 24 in their entire Squad.

maestegmafia wrote:

tomathy wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Sorry i meant in the World Cup.

What happens after is barely relevant right now. Unless you think Martin Johnson has his selection wrong?

Should england have taken a gamble on some untried players like Twelvetrees, Barritt or Turner-Hall...?

It seems to have worked wonders for Wales.

Guys like Warburton, North, Lydiate etc are exceptionally talented though, which isn't necessarily true of ours, though they could be. Turner-Hall has looked particularly good recently, but would he work well with Tuilagi? Twelvetrees could play well with him, but apparently has struggled somewhat for Leicester at the beginning of this season.

I think that you can only take so many rookies to a world cup, and Twelvetrees/Turner-Hall weren't in good enough form to get selected for the six nations.

Haven't really watched enough of Barritt to comment.

Against Samoa Wales had seven players under 24 in the starting line up. England have only four players under 24 in their entire Squad.

I think we've got a lot of guys between 24-26 in fairness though. All of Croft, Haskell, Wood, Hartley, Cole, Flood, Banahan, Foden, Ashton and possibly a few more.

is there really a problem with the england team.

we just won the 6n's the foirst time in a long time- we have a shot at another final. our ramnking has been steadily getting better over the last few years. we are starting to beat better teamas again, we have won all our games so far this world cup.

lets not expect to much and see how they go- MJ hasnt really done anything wrong in this build up at all!

we are steadily improving and steadily getting results

mystiroakey wrote:is there really a problem with the england team.

we just won the 6n's the foirst time in a long time- we have a shot at another final. our ramnking has been steadily getting better over the last few years. we are starting to beat better teamas again, we have won all our games so far this world cup.

lets not expect to much and see how they go- MJ hasnt really done anything wrong in this build up at all!

we are steadily improving and steadily getting results

I wouldn't agree that England improving. In fact the more games they play the more they make the games where they played well over the last 18 months look like freak results.

In 2010 England beat Australia twice, home and away. In 2011 England struggled to beat Scotland twice and lost to Ireland and Wales.

In 2010 England beat Australia twice, home and away. In 2011 England struggled to beat Scotland twice and lost to Ireland and Wales.

We also beat Wales twice, home and away, beat Ireland away for the first time in God knows how long and won the 6N. I do see us still taking small steps forward – like Tuilagi coming in at 13. That is a definite improvement and looks like the answer to a problem we've had for a while. Now for that 12 spot...

Incidentally the average ages of the starting XVs England v Scotland and Wales v Samoa:

England: 26.9 y/o
Wales 25.6 y/o

Not a huge difference really. I did a good spend ten minutes working that out though so there's no way I wasn't going to post it.

Eustace H Plimsoll wrote:

In 2010 England beat Australia twice, home and away. In 2011 England struggled to beat Scotland twice and lost to Ireland and Wales.

We also beat Wales twice, home and away, beat Ireland away for the first time in God knows how long and won the 6N. I do see us still taking small steps forward – like Tuilagi coming in at 13. That is a definite improvement and looks like the answer to a problem we've had for a while. Now for that 12 spot...

Incidentally the average ages of the starting XVs England v Scotland and Wales v Samoa:

England: 26.9 y/o
Wales 25.6 y/o

Not a huge difference really. I did a good spend ten minutes working that out though so there's no way I wasn't going to post it.

Valid points re Wales and Ireland, it has been a good while since England posted back to back wins against Wales and an away win in Dublin.

But after the Australia wins I feel that the media and the fans expected England to be challengers for the top three by now, they really dont look like it.

Maesteg

I think the Aus result and the Italy 6Ns game showed that we have a dangerous back division, and that when we get on top in the forwards they can do some damage.

I know it is difficult for a lot of people to accept, but the stereotype of England as a good pack with a questionable backline is not really valid anymore - if anything the problem is with the forwards producing good quick ball so that Flood and the back 3 (4 now with Manu) can exploit space.

I do think there is plenty of room for improvement, but probably only a little with the squad at the RWC (form and confidence of a few players especially Youngs and Lawes can improve and the performances will follow). I was really meaning that the team is still a work in proress and is maybe another year to 18 months away from realising its potential - as long as we can get a new back row together.

By 2013, we'll hopefully be looking at a team something like:
Corbisiero
Hartley
Cole
Lawes
Attwood ?
Croft
Wood
???????

Youngs
Flood
Sharples
Allen / JT-H / 36
Tuilagi
Ashton
Foden.

I think that has the potential to be a very good team indeed, and quite a bit better than that currently playing especially with the added international experience the established players will have by then..

In 2007 you were Poopie with a Poopie coach and got smashed by SA but still got to play them again in the final which you almost sneaked. This time you are slightly less Poopie with a slightly less Poopie coach and you had a draw that was soft as Poopie and you won't meet a proper SH side until the final. Don't worry about it just get on with it.

mystiroakey wrote:is there really a problem with the england team.

we just won the 6n's the foirst time in a long time- we have a shot at another final. our ramnking has been steadily getting better over the last few years. we are starting to beat better teamas again, we have won all our games so far this world cup.

lets not expect to much and see how they go- MJ hasnt really done anything wrong in this build up at all!

we are steadily improving and steadily getting results

I suppose you didn't watch the England vs Scotland game.

We came 2nd best in pretty much every department bar defence and attack. Got mullered in the scrum. Check.Came worse off in the lineout. Check.Sluggish breakdown work. Check.Appalling performances from half backs. Check. Hopeless inside centre. Check.

beshocked wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:is there really a problem with the england team.

we just won the 6n's the foirst time in a long time- we have a shot at another final. our ramnking has been steadily getting better over the last few years. we are starting to beat better teamas again, we have won all our games so far this world cup.

lets not expect to much and see how they go- MJ hasnt really done anything wrong in this build up at all!

we are steadily improving and steadily getting results

I suppose you didn't watch the England vs Scotland game.

We came 2nd best in pretty much every department bar defence and attack. Got mullered in the scrum. Check.Came worse off in the lineout. Check.Sluggish breakdown work. Check.Appalling performances from half backs. Check. Hopeless inside centre. Check.

do you really only judge teams on last game performnaces , and to judge on a england v scotland game is abit strong- its abit of a grudge type emotional game. We all new it was gonna be tough. a wins a win. Time to move onwards and upwards

It shouldn't have been tough. We made it much harder work for ourselves.

No I judge teams on their performances in the last year.

Which performances have you been genuinely pleased with?

For me it has just been England vs Wales and England vs Italy in the 6 nations.

England have looked ugly in all other games.

I couldn't remember the last time England won the breakdown battle - didn't look sluggish. Wait it was against Italy.

The moment you realise England are a decidedly average team the better.

England have taken the bright sparks in the AP and slowly ground them down so they have lost the will to live - Foden,Ashton,Youngs,Flood as examples.

Glas a du wrote:In 2007 you were Poopie with a Poopie coach and got smashed by SA but still got to play them again in the final which you almost sneaked. This time you are slightly less Poopie with a slightly less Poopie coach and you had a draw that was soft as Poopie and you won't meet a proper SH side until the final. Don't worry about it just get on with it.

best post I've seen in ages, you are Steven Fry and I claim my £5

I'm honoured but no, you are not right this time.

Glas a du wrote:In 2007 you were Poopie with a Poopie coach and got smashed by SA but still got to play them again in the final which you almost sneaked. This time you are slightly less Poopie with a slightly less Poopie coach and you had a draw that was soft as Poopie and you won't meet a proper SH side until the final. Don't worry about it just get on with it.

There's plenty wrong with that statement but you're entitled to your rather narrow opnion i suppose.

I'm English and I agree with Glas, England in the last two years have got better in their backs and worse in their forwards. Movement to breakdown, Scrum, securing and turning the ball over has been pretty pathetic. The Lineout so-so.

Hell, even Tindall has had to resort to passing the ball (which resulted in tries).

Rowntree needs to light a roman candle up the Packs collective arse, they ARE better than they have been playing but other teams always seem to want the ball more and largely succeed. Unless the forwards front up we're gonna get stuffed vs France/Ireland/Aus/SA/NZ.

damage_13 wrote:Hell, even Tindall has had to resort to passing the ball (which resulted in tries).

Of course his initial recollection was that he merely rotated Wilkinson's balls, and never went near the try line. He wasn't even thinking about scoring. It was all platonic.

Bitter Beer wrote:

Glas a du wrote:In 2007 you were Poopie with a Poopie coach and got smashed by SA but still got to play them again in the final which you almost sneaked. This time you are slightly less Poopie with a slightly less Poopie coach and you had a draw that was soft as Poopie and you won't meet a proper SH side until the final. Don't worry about it just get on with it.

There's plenty wrong with that statement but you're entitled to your rather narrow opnion i suppose.

Thats a pretty poopie reply - you going to point out where his narrow opinion differs to your 'broad' one ?

nice try, but the tries I was refering to were his pass and his chip to the eventual try scorer.

....instead of running into the loving embrace of the defence as he usually does.

I'll start by saying I am passionate about rugby and I want England to win, and I'm probably as guilty of this as everyone... but is this England side actually the 4th best side in the World? Or is it just a case of England expects no matter what the team is? Man-for-man, especially in the pack, can anyone seriously suggest it's better than any of 3N sides, and potentially any of the other 6N sides?!

I seriously hope I'm wrong, but I think MJ may have actually got this set of players playing as the best team that they can. We can't play a hugely expansive game if we can't win the subsequent breakdowns, which at the moment we can't. So as much as I don't like it, how England are currently playing may be the only way they can compete at a high level, and potentially they are doing it well. It's just that playing such a stifling game doesn't look fantastic, but is playing rugby well all the same. How far this limited game can take them who knows.

At worst this should be a good experience for a core group of players to take England forwards towards 2015, and from which to add to post WC.

I think this thread has a lot more relevance now!