England's problems and potential solutions

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There is no doubt England have been poor in the world cup. Why?

Who do you think are at fault?

Is it the lack of talent in English rugby? Not in my opinion. In recent years we have consistently been one of the best countries in JWCs, have been arguably the best in the U20s 6 nations. Could it be the England management not picking enough of the best players in the AP?


It does strike me as odd that the England juniors match the SH on a regular basis, beating South Africa and Australia yet our seniors look clueless.

Is it simply poor selection in key areas?

Glaring weaknesses like the backrow and centres stand out like a sore thumb.

A heavy reliance on out of form players like Youngs and Wilkinson.

Why do England's players seem so mediocre?

Do you think it's the gameplan?

Why are the Welsh and Irish playing so well and we aren't? I cannot believe that their players are simply better. If they were we wouldn't trounce Wales' juniors on a regular basis.

Time for some substantial changes to players and coaches. We should be targetting 2015 and start building now, with the focus on performances rather than results for the next year or so. For the 2012 6 Nations (with various players like Haskell, Palmer and Cipriani unavailable):

Corbisero (or Mullan or Marler, depending on form)
Thompson (one concession to experience)
Cole
Lawes
Parling (or Robson, depending on form)
Robshaw (or Wood, depending on form)
Wallace (time to invest in a longterm answer at 7)
Fearns (time to invest in a longterm answer at 8)
Youngs (or Care, depending on form)
Flood (or Hodgson, depending on form)
Sharples (or Short, depending on form)
Barritt (or Twelvetrees, depending on form)
Tuilagi
Ashton (or Ojo, depending on form)
Armitage (or Foden, depending on form)

England need on-field leadership, and really need to sort out the breakdown, hence the radical changes from 5-8. Stevens should only figure again if he can convince at TH, and Croft should only be considered again when we have 7 and 8 sorted, unless we want to play him at 5.

Some of this is pretty radical, but as far as I'm concerned this is now year zero and we should focus on building for 4 years time. Part of this is introducing young players now and risking some of them being exposed.

Well I have to say I am absolutely gutted at the defeat, but I cant help but feel we have been saved the embarrassment of an even worse shoe-ing at the hands of a startlingly confident and near perfect performer such as wales. I just dont think we had the players this time around. The dysfunctional hybrid of Youngs Wilko and Flood to me was the biggest goof up of all and I make no bones about it, I think Youngs is the one who is disrupting the entire play of the backs. Mr two steps before every pass behind the left ear.. I digress.

Fact of the matter is its over. Only one player shone and that was the little utilised Tuilagi, and some great efforts from foden, haskell, flood and other lads. I mean, I thought MJ was gonna be tough on giving away penalties? That was the one area he was constantly targetting to the press... against france there were 5 in 28 minutes!!!! WHAT! thats almost 1 every 5 minutes. Then the line outs lost x 3 and then no strength in the breakdowns. We are in ruins. I agree - its year zero.

I think the sign of poor management is when they take good players and slowly but surely they erode their quality. Are the likes of Youngs, Lawes.Ashton and Foden really as good as when they were first chosen for the England squad?

Simple answer: NO.

Manu Tuilagi is largely unaffected so far as he hasn't had overexposure to the England management but if Martin Johnson stays he will get him too.

The selection was wrong, there is no gameplan, no leaders, set piece was poor, breakdown was poor. Nothing went right in the end. Even the defence went to pieces when playing a half decent attacking side.

I would like to see this team for next year's 6 nations

1.Corbiserio
2.Hartley
3.Cole
4.Lawes
5.Robson
6.Robshaw
7.Wood
8.Morgan
9.Care
10.Flood
11.Sharples/Short
12.Barritt
13.Tuilagi
14.Ashton
15.Foden

We just need a few changes...not wholsale. We have a young team that is 6n champions - some underpar performances...but we still are still champions.

The positions to look at are:

Hooker: Is Hartley the answer?
Blindside: Is Croft too lightweight...
N.8: Do we pick a youngster and start him..Fearns?
12: We have a 13 now...need a quality 12...Barritt, Turner Hall?
14: A replacement for Cueto. Wade, Sharples, Ojo...winger is one position i think we are really blessed in.

New Coaches...

Beshocked, I quizzed you on this elsewhere, but how can you go for Morgan at 8?

Quite aside from him not plying his trade in the AP, making his selection unlikely, he's entertaining playing for Wales, so I would question his dedication to the England shirt, and there's what I've said before:

A lot of praise was heaped on Morgan last season, but he hasn't really been tested. He barely featured in their HC campaign (just the Treviso games) and he's yet to face Heaslip, O'Brien or Leamy. Thomas most definitely got the better of him when Ospreys beat Scarlets 60-17 last.

We'd be much better off developing players of a similar age that have been through (& captained) England age grade teams, the very impressive Carl Fearns and U16, U18 & U20 6N granslam winning captain Alex Gray (golden boy being groomed as a future senior side captain if ever I saw one). Then there is your boy Wray.

Crane is very unfortunate being out for the season, as was Guest with his broken arm in the opening game of the season. Guest is back next month though, and I would back him for the 6N. I'd also give Dowson a go, he's just about young enough to last the next WC cycle, and would make a great, versatile squad member even if not a starter in 4 years, plus he brings much needed leadership qualities in the interim.

Good assesment Geordie -

Hooker: Is Hartley the answer? Hartley will still be there for the next few years. Youngsters to come up are Jamie George at Sarries, and Grey at Quins.
Blindside: Is Croft too lightweight...Robshaw? Hendry Fourie will still want more caps although is probably too old for the next WC, Stef Armitage only signed a 2yr contract with Toulon. Out of the left field...Magnus Lund at Barritz if he returned to England. Is Tom Rees of Wasps even playing anymore?
N.8: Do we pick a youngster and start him..Fearns? Guest is a contender, but he hasnt even had much Saxons exposure. York at Quins is playing really well and offers much grunt. I havent seen much of Fearns, is he that good? How is Narraway going?
12: We have a 13 now...need a quality 12...Barritt, Turner Hall? I dont think JTH is there yet! Owen Farrell?

New Coaches...New Coaches would be nice. Ford and Wells have had well over their time in charge.

I think there is going to need to be more 2nd rowers - Shaw will surely retire and Deacon doesnt offer much. Palmer has been excellent but still has a contract at Stade - ones to come into the squad could be, Parling, Attwood, Robson, Kitchener was getting time in the Saxons last season.

Backup 10's - assuming Wilko retires (or has another year). Flood to start. Rory Clegg! (definately not ready), Hodgeson could come back into squad (but still flakey), Stephen Myler? (still has issues). Owen Farrell, is he ready?

Yeah i think Armitage should have been nailed on now if he had been given a chance. He was a cracking player.

I would start Robshaw at 6 for a few games....see how he goes.

As for 7's there is Welch at us (falcons), Wallace at quins who is getting fantastic reviews - a real fetcher, Young, but get them in.

Owen Farrell needs to be brought into the squad now. But as a 10.

I also think the quins fb Brown needs to come in to the squad. He's always good when ever i watch him.

Mike Brown - I'm a quins STH. I've never been Browns biggest fan. Citing that he is slow, always tries to run the ball back and normally getting caught by 1st defender, not to mention his temperment.However, this season and the end of the last he seems to have really worked on his critcisms. He is a new player in my eyes and could be a real contender for the 15 shirt. If he keeps up good form then I say give him a chance, saxons shirt surely.

What of Abendanon? he is currently the saxons 15. Alex Goode too.

FB isn't a problem for England. Foden will probably get his form back, Armitage is a class player, and Brown would let anyone down. Goode might be worth a look (I think he lacks the acceleration necessary to play 15 at international level), and if Miller keeps his form up he'll be there or there abouts come the spring. Also I fogot Homer - if Armitage goes to France as rumoured then Homer will be first choice at LI and his game is coming on nicely (loved his barrelling run for his try on Sunday).

There might be a slight lack of depth at lock until Launchbury establishes himself and Attowwod and Kitchener find some form, but the main problems are 10 and 12.

Actually I think 12 is looking ok: one of Barritt, Twelvetrees and JTH would be better than we've had for a while, Farrell might be ready for a shot come the spring and Banahan and Tuilagi (with the hugely exciting Jonathan Joseph at 13) are also options.

10 is more problematic. Saracens seem to have decided Farrell is a centre, Burns can't get past Tim Taylor, Ford is at least 2-3 years away from international rugby and Slade more than that. Heathcote is brand new on the scene. Geraghty seems lost to English rugby and so, at least for another year, is Cipriani. I can't see an international coach trusting Lamb or Davis. Clegg isn't getting enough game time, Miller is but at FB which is where Sarries see Goode staying, and so after Flood and Hodgson you probably have to turn to Myler. Unless something turns up I reckon the RFU might have a quiet word with Dan Bowden if only to give us a bit more short-term depth.

Still, the centres genuinely look to be a diminishing issue, and there are options at 6 and 7. Let's get Fearns in at 8 and the number of England problem positions will be quite small.

"FB isn't a problem for England. Foden will probably get his form back"

Dave i dont even think he's been out of form. He's played very strongly (generally ) defensively, and has scored. I think we are strong at FB at the moment.

Yeah Attwood doesnt look like the player that blasted in to recognition...but then Bath arent playing great so he might come back into form.

propdavid_london wrote:Mike Brown - I'm a quins STH. I've never been Browns biggest fan. Citing that he is slow, always tries to run the ball back and normally getting caught by 1st defender, not to mention his temperment.However, this season and the end of the last he seems to have really worked on his critcisms. He is a new player in my eyes and could be a real contender for the 15 shirt. If he keeps up good form then I say give him a chance, saxons shirt surely.

he still doesn't pass though. drives me nuts. he gets away with it for quins but if he tried to run the ball that much at international level he'd get himself into trouble.

I think that the wins England have had , australia, 6nations,etc good as they were, there was nothing much between the teams. The teams have moved on, improved, but England havent. Didn't they think they needed to improve? Were they satisfied with being 6nations champions, beating Australia so we must be good, eh lads?
You enter a competition like the rwc thinking you must be good because of past victories and the mindset is one of entitlement.
I feel sad for the professional players in the England team who haven't behaved like lads on a jolly. Wilkos face said it all to me, as well as Flood.
This afternoon on Talksport radio, Jeff Probyn said Martin Johnson couldnt tell the senior players off because he used to go out and drink with them as a player.!

The title of this thread----problems and solutions, may be summed up by this quote today from martyn johnson ' We havent learned anything we didnt already know' yeah right, martyn. omg!

stlowe wrote:Beshocked, I quizzed you on this elsewhere, but how can you go for Morgan at 8?

Quite aside from him not plying his trade in the AP, making his selection unlikely, he's entertaining playing for Wales, so I would question his dedication to the England shirt, and there's what I've said before:

A lot of praise was heaped on Morgan last season, but he hasn't really been tested. He barely featured in their HC campaign (just the Treviso games) and he's yet to face Heaslip, O'Brien or Leamy. Thomas most definitely got the better of him when Ospreys beat Scarlets 60-17 last.

No different to Toby Faletau who is one of the best number eights in the world right now...!

The days of England picking an international team full of hardened HEC winners stopped nearly ten years ago. English rugby as a club game isn't where it was. One English team always does well in the HEC but not several like ten years ago.

Living in past glories will not help you build for the future.

maestegmafia wrote:

stlowe wrote:Beshocked, I quizzed you on this elsewhere, but how can you go for Morgan at 8?

Quite aside from him not plying his trade in the AP, making his selection unlikely, he's entertaining playing for Wales, so I would question his dedication to the England shirt, and there's what I've said before:

A lot of praise was heaped on Morgan last season, but he hasn't really been tested. He barely featured in their HC campaign (just the Treviso games) and he's yet to face Heaslip, O'Brien or Leamy. Thomas most definitely got the better of him when Ospreys beat Scarlets 60-17 last.

No different to Toby Faletau who is one of the best number eights in the world right now...!
The days of England picking an international team full of hardened HEC winners stopped nearly ten years ago. English rugby as a club game isn't where it was. One English team always does well in the HEC but not several like ten years ago.

Living in past glories will not help you build for the future.

maesteg, I wouldn't go quite that far just yet - he's playing very well, and is part of an outstanding backrow unit, but I think he's got a way to go before he can be considered in the same light as Parisse, Harinordiquay, Read, etc. - I believe that he might get there if he carries on like he is tho

For the 2012 6 Nations (with various players like Haskell, Palmer and Cipriani unavailable):

Corbisero (or Mullan or Marler, depending on form)
Thompson (one concession to experience)
Cole
Lawes
Parling (or Robson, depending on form)
Robshaw (or Wood, depending on form)
Wallace (time to invest in a longterm answer at 7)
Fearns (time to invest in a longterm answer at 8)
Youngs (or Care, depending on form)
Flood (or Hodgson, depending on form)
Sharples (or Short, depending on form)
Barritt (or Twelvetrees, depending on form)
Tuilagi
Ashton (or Ojo, depending on form)
Armitage (or Foden, depending on form)

Croft dropped completely? Very strange call as he generally one of Englands better players and comfortabley out performed the other flankers we took with us. Robshaw/Wallace/Fearns is a backrow with 1 cap? That will be eaten alive by the French, Welsh, Scottish, Irish and I think even the Italians would back themselves. I agree on the rest, though I wouldn't include Ojo I'd bring in Wade or debut Homer on the wing over him, but you can't include a backrow that naive to the international scene. Croft/Wallace/Easter if Wallace lives up to his early billing with Robshaw on the bench or Croft/Robshaw/Easter with Fearns on the bench.

Don't like how you mention Cipriani at the top, he's a long way from international standard.

No different to Toby Faletau who is one of the best number eights in the world right now...!

Not sure he's even Wales best 8 personally, a certain Gareth Delve always seemed a class act to me.

gavstar wrote:The title of this thread----problems and solutions, may be summed up by this quote today from martyn johnson ' We havent learned anything we didnt already know' yeah right, martyn. omg!

So, you can copy and paste then?

First things first for me for England:

1. Get the RFU sorted out. Which in itself is the most complicated problem in that it relies on the most flatulent of Old Farts to agree that there is a better way. And there again they have to decide to collectively fall on there swords whilst having willed their powers to a more rational overseeing body. [pigs might fly]

2. Make all England Managers/coaches reapply for their jobs. Some have failed comprehensively. Some have addressable shortcomings. Those that know that have personally come up short will not reapply.

3. Reassess England's increasingly dubious performances in European competition.

4. Re-evaluate the share of contributions made to Englands' cause in terms of Central Contracts and English talent (not EQP) being beyond the wage cap. England to determine CC-Players availability for Jeff/European club games.

maestegmafia wrote:

stlowe wrote:Beshocked, I quizzed you on this elsewhere, but how can you go for Morgan at 8?

Quite aside from him not plying his trade in the AP, making his selection unlikely, he's entertaining playing for Wales, so I would question his dedication to the England shirt, and there's what I've said before:

A lot of praise was heaped on Morgan last season, but he hasn't really been tested. He barely featured in their HC campaign (just the Treviso games) and he's yet to face Heaslip, O'Brien or Leamy. Thomas most definitely got the better of him when Ospreys beat Scarlets 60-17 last.

No different to Toby Faletau who is one of the best number eights in the world right now...!

The days of England picking an international team full of hardened HEC winners stopped nearly ten years ago. English rugby as a club game isn't where it was. One English team always does well in the HEC but not several like ten years ago.

Living in past glories will not help you build for the future.

Not the case actually, Faletau played against Picamoles, Heaslip, Collins, Rush, leamy, Lyons & Diack last season. Plus, I wouldn't call him one of the best 8s in the world. A good 8 playing in a well performing team.

Aside from which, your comments have little relevance to the main point that there are players just as good if not better already in the system that have proven themselves at a more competitve level than Morgan and aren't looking to play elsewhere. No one is stating HC winners only need apply, but there needs to be some semblance of proven substance to players being hyped by local media, and that means at the very least proving yourself against the best players in your league, something Morgan hasn't done as yet. Many players can look handy when they've only played against the lower rung.

ENG fans should be warying of going radical and experimenting too much with their XV.

Its not who will be the best in 4 years time... 2 years time when the seedings are announced are just as important.

If ENG are not top4 by the end of 2013 then they will have to probably face NZ, AUS or SA in the pools... coming 2nd in the pool would mean another QF with probably either NZ, AUS or SA.

So even if any radical changes start to bring rewards in 4 years time... if ENG are not a top 4 unit by the end of the 2013 AI in all probability they will find it near impossible to mount a serious challenge for the RWC15.

stlowe to your answer your question why would I go for Morgan?

Would he be any worse than Easter or Haskell? No

He is a young Englishman who the Welsh seem to rate highly. Of course it all depends on whether he wants to play for Wales or England.

I wonder if Wales in the future will ever have another true Welsh no 8.

We'll have to see how that true Welshman Faletau does against Harinorduquy before we start signing his praises to the rooftops.

DaveM I think it's a bit early to pick some random youngster at 7 for England with virtually no games under their belt.

beshocked wrote:stlowe to your answer your question why would I go for Morgan?

Would he be any worse than Easter or Haskell? No

He is a young Englishman who the Welsh seem to rate highly. Of course it all depends on whether he wants to play for Wales or England.

I wonder if Wales in the future will ever have another true Welsh no 8.

We'll have to see how that true Welshman Faletau does against Harinorduquy before we start signing his praises to the rooftops.

DaveM I think it's a bit early to pick some random youngster at 7 for England with virtually no games under their belt.

That's close to racism. Toby's mother is Welsh. If his father was white but not Welsh, you wouldn't say such a thing would you!

Sorry glas a du it is tongue firmly in cheek.

When I say true Welsh no 8 I mean born in Wales.

I couldn't say anything if he was born in Wales.

No it isn't because he isn't white. There always jokes about North being English. He's white correct? He wasn't born in Wales either.

Glas a du wrote:

beshocked wrote:stlowe to your answer your question why would I go for Morgan?

Would he be any worse than Easter or Haskell? No

He is a young Englishman who the Welsh seem to rate highly. Of course it all depends on whether he wants to play for Wales or England.

I wonder if Wales in the future will ever have another true Welsh no 8.

We'll have to see how that true Welshman Faletau does against Harinorduquy before we start signing his praises to the rooftops.

DaveM I think it's a bit early to pick some random youngster at 7 for England with virtually no games under their belt.

That's close to racism. Toby's mother is Welsh. If his father was white but not Welsh, you wouldn't say such a thing would you!

Unsuprisingly, you've taken Beshocked's comment which was perfectly innocent and tongue in cheek and decided to scream 'RACISM' because in simple terms, you don't like someone having a pop at Toby's legitimacy as a Welsh player. Funnily enough, its fine for some of your countrymen to do the same with regards to Tuilagi but hey, don't let that bother you.

Thanks bitter beer. I am happy for Glas a du to call Manu Samoan. He is. Waldrom is a Kiwi, so are Hape and Flutey. All are English qualified though.

Call Simon Shaw a Kenyan if it makes you feel warm inside.

Manu and Toby are both very good players though and both our elligible for England and Wales respectively.

England need to keep picking the young players.

North was however born to 2 welsh parents.........

anyway. Beshocked, hands off morgan, i told you before

I dont think theres too much wrong with the england rugby team - the RFU is another matter.

1. Get a new forwards coach -the breakdown has been terrible for a while now, set-piece could improve- but see point 2.

2. Get the selection right - i find it astonishing how players like allen/barritt/s.armitage/robshaw havent had more of a chance in the England side.

Sorted.

ps. Faletau and Tuilagi arent the sort of cases where residency is a problem, they've both been here for years. Its the Waldroms/Fluteys/Hapes of this world that are the problem.

beshocked wrote:Would he be any worse than Easter or Haskell? No

Impossible to judge until he's come up against opposition of significance. Your comment that the Welsh "seem to rate him" suggests that you're putting his name forward based on reputation and haven't seen much of him yourself? Hype without proven substance shouldn't be a selection criteria.

The more pertinent question I have been getting at is not whether he would be worse than Easter or Haskell, but would he be better than Fearns, Gray, Guest & Crane, who have also shown more commitment to playing for England.

It'll be interesting to see how Morgan goes against a faltering Tigers this weekend.

Comfort I can understand you wanting most of the England management to stay! You are Welsh!

No 2. is easier said than done and is essentially personal opinion.

Stlowe true I haven't seen him but I have seen plenty of Haskell and Easter in the England backrow. They haven't been great have they?

Cannot pick Guest and Crane because they are injured. Sure Gray and Fearns would be fine too. Or alternatively Jackson Wray.

Tigers will probably play their big guns and splatter an understrength Scarlets.

Call Simon Shaw a Kenyan if it makes you feel warm inside

Despite being born in Kenya Simon Shaw's parents were English and he didn't spend that much time there, for starters he went to an English boarding school in Spain and moved back to England around 16.

Portnoy I'm in agreement with all of that other than the central contracting, I don't want the Aviva Premiership to become the farse that County Cricket is. I want to see England Internationals play for their club week in week out not stand in the dug out because they are on yet another rest weekend. Players miss a silly amount of time during the season because of internationals, it's time club competitions and internationals were held at different times to lower the congested schedules. Knocking the LV Cup on the head and replacing it with either an extended under 20/academy calender or age capping the thing (under 23s) and moving it fully to international weekends so it becomes a full fledged development competition would be a good start.

I go away for 30 minutes and come back to find this good thread degenerate into a residency "England are a bunch of foreigners" thread. All managed without the participation of the GreyGhost.

Blame me for that funny exiled scot I apologise. Greyghost will be here soon i am sure.

Sam true.

Bitter Beer wrote:

Glas a du wrote:

beshocked wrote:stlowe to your answer your question why would I go for Morgan?

Would he be any worse than Easter or Haskell? No

He is a young Englishman who the Welsh seem to rate highly. Of course it all depends on whether he wants to play for Wales or England.

I wonder if Wales in the future will ever have another true Welsh no 8.

We'll have to see how that true Welshman Faletau does against Harinorduquy before we start signing his praises to the rooftops.

DaveM I think it's a bit early to pick some random youngster at 7 for England with virtually no games under their belt.

That's close to racism. Toby's mother is Welsh. If his father was white but not Welsh, you wouldn't say such a thing would you!

Unsuprisingly, you've taken Beshocked's comment which was perfectly innocent and tongue in cheek and decided to scream 'RACISM' because in simple terms, you don't like someone having a pop at Toby's legitimacy as a Welsh player. Funnily enough, its fine for some of your countrymen to do the same with regards to Tuilagi but hey, don't let that bother you.

Sorry?

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Croft dropped completely? Very strange call as he generally one of Englands better players and comfortabley out performed the other flankers we took with us. Robshaw/Wallace/Fearns is a backrow with 1 cap? That will be eaten alive by the French, Welsh, Scottish, Irish and I think even the Italians would back themselves. I agree on the rest, though I wouldn't include Ojo I'd bring in Wade or debut Homer on the wing over him, but you can't include a backrow that naive to the international scene. Croft/Wallace/Easter if Wallace lives up to his early billing with Robshaw on the bench or Croft/Robshaw/Easter with Fearns on the bench.

Don't like how you mention Cipriani at the top, he's a long way from international standard.

Yes, out completely for now. Croft is a good player, but an unusual backrower and I think England need to get the basics right before introducing a luxury like Croft (in reality Croft will be picked). I also want to see some leadership, and I think Robshaw at 6 offers way more there than Croft, and I also don't see the point in continuing with Easter - good player but not world class so let's try and find someone who can become that.

Let's be honest, England have really struggled at the breakdown for several years now and the WC debacle is an opportunity to sort that. Would that backrow be 'eaten alive'? I think not, as Fearns and Wallace really have something about them. Even if I'm wrong, they'd at least learn something - I want England to build to be the best side in the world, not to focus on scraping 2nd in the 2012 6 Nations. England backrows' featuring the likes of Moody and Easter have been struggling against all top tier sides some a while now. I'd say Scotland, Ireland, Wales, France and the SH sides all have a better backrow than the one that turned out for England in the WC. Let's take some action to change that.

For me Ojo is the best wing in English rugby at the moment. Wade has impressed me, but I think he has to get through the winter and show he isn't a massive defensive liability before being picked by England. I think Homer can play for England, but I think he's a potential international FB rather than an international winger.

As for Cips, he's has ground to make up but with Wilkinson presumably finished at international level (although see below!) all that is left in the next 12 months is Flood and Hodgson. Being one injury from Myler apearing as international FH is not a comfortable place to be.

As an aside Palmer is apparently available for England this season as he signed his contract before the new rules, so I'd expect him to play with Lawes. However I still think Parling and Robson both have the potential to add something to the England team.

I agree with Parling and Robson both being good options. Can't see Ojo as the best winger in England at the moment and considering his 'activities' on his last tour I think his involvement in the squad is the last thing we need. Short at Sarries would be my preferred choice, strong and quick and a good all round skill set.

and I also don't see the point in continuing with Easter - good player but not world class so let's try and find someone who can become that.

So you'd promote Worlsey mrk 2 over Croft the Lion? Doesn't make sense to me.

Not sure bringing back Topsy would send out the right message about the off the field issues.
He is a good strike winger, but would he ever get in ahead of a fit Ashton? No.
Do England have a problem with their back 3 ?
No.
Are the reserve wingers a major issue right now?
No.


Get a captain first, and one whos likely to be around for four years. Then lets worry about shape of the rest of the team.

Areas not a worry at the moment:

1&3
4&5
9
10 - Flood but need backup though
11
13
14
15

Areas of concern

2
(6 plenty)78 - Unit not great
10 - Backup
12

I don't think 6 is a problem Geordie as there is a string of players who could a good job there; Croft, Robshaw, Wood, Haskell it's pretty pickings. 8 and more critically openside aren't anywhere near as bountiful in their wealth especially with the injuries afflicting our 8s.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I don't think 6 is a problem Geordie as there is a string of players who could a good job there; Croft, Robshaw, Wood, Haskell it's pretty pickings. 8 and more critically openside aren't anywhere near as bountiful in their wealth especially with the injuries afflicting our 8s.

Arguably its the combination of 678 that needs to be right, so maybe that unit should stay an "area of concern"?

I really wouldn't call Robshaw a Worsley mk2.

He's better in just about every way, and i see where Dave is coming from with dropping croft.
Croft is a very good player but right now throws the backrow balance out of kilter. We need more power in the backrow, you can see the difference Haskell makes when he plays because suddenly we have a power player who can smash the ball up and smash guys when tackling. As good as Croft is he just can not do that.

If we keep Croft then we need Hask or an 8 like him Narroway,Guest,Crane etc couldn't play because they wouldn't be able to cover for him.

Of course this is all moot, Croft will play so we should just be looking for a new 7 & 8 to pair with him.

tomathy wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:Mike Brown - I'm a quins STH. I've never been Browns biggest fan. Citing that he is slow, always tries to run the ball back and normally getting caught by 1st defender, not to mention his temperment.However, this season and the end of the last he seems to have really worked on his critcisms. He is a new player in my eyes and could be a real contender for the 15 shirt. If he keeps up good form then I say give him a chance, saxons shirt surely.

he still doesn't pass though. drives me nuts. he gets away with it for quins but if he tried to run the ball that much at international level he'd get himself into trouble.

Both of Quins first half tries against Tigers were from Brown fixing the man and then sending a good pass to the winger to run in.

Sam your right about 6....we have some strong options there...

As a unit though its a problem...

Anyway...what do you notice about the spine...

2, 8,10,12 key positions in the spine are the problem ones says it all.

Bridge to engine room:
peep:

Chief, we've hit an iceberg. Are we going to sink?

Engine room to bridge :
peep:

Don't worry No 1. We're just making sure it won't happen again.

Bridge to engine room:
peep:

We are sinking Chief! And the board's not answering calls.

Engine room to bridge :
peep:

We're pretty sure that if we replaced the inner inlet valve on the sixth cylinder it won't happen again.

Bridge: LEFT HAND DOWN A BIT!. Oh lummy...

Courtesy RFU Troutbridge.

Most people will be too young to remember the Navy Lark to get the bitter satire on the futility of this thread.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I agree with Parling and Robson both being good options. Can't see Ojo as the best winger in England at the moment and considering his 'activities' on his last tour I think his involvement in the squad is the last thing we need. Short at Sarries would be my preferred choice, strong and quick and a good all round skill set.

So you'd promote Worlsey mrk 2 over Croft the Lion? Doesn't make sense to me.

Short is good, but so is Ojo. He made some mistakes a few years back, it's time for a second chance (this will require a new coach). Ashton isn't playing so well he should be immune to competition.

Don't understand the Worsely comment. And backrow balance is as important as the ability of the individual players.

Bitter Beer wrote:

gavstar wrote:The title of this thread----problems and solutions, may be summed up by this quote today from martyn johnson ' We havent learned anything we didnt already know' yeah right, martyn. omg!

So, you can copy and paste then?

I haven't learned anything i didn't already know...i too could cut and paste.

RFU and MJ is the problem. Solution is obvious

Well, that post of mine was way back in the discussion, and I thought more England posters would have realised where everything is going wrong before now.

Another quote from MJ to think about 'You get it wrong for 20 minutes and you're out, it's brutal'

Now come on PLEASE, GET TOGETHER ENGLANDERS YOU NEED NEW BRAINS AT THE TOP FAST.

I'm Welsh, love the way we are going, but as a rugby fan, as I have said before, we need a strong English side to keep the nh striving for better, keep the competition going at the highest level. Being Grand slam winners is not enough of a bench mark------as we have seen.

I'm not anti English, I'm pro Rugby, pro standards on and off the park.
Soccer has a huge influence on and off the pitch for youngsters, and we are losing our positive image in England.

I think the problem is overcoachindg IMO and robotic adherence to a game plan that when it works, works fine, but when it doesn't, players can't think, can't counter the tactics they see before them. Tuilage and Foden, perhaps Ashton, are the only ones who appear to play what they see before them, but that brightness will soon be coached out of them.

Regionalisation.

How would regionalisation help?

What England need is a new coaching team. There is plenty of talent, and loads more coming through. What we need is to stop focussing on just trying to win the next game and think about where we want to be in a couple of years' time.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

stlowe wrote:Beshocked, I quizzed you on this elsewhere, but how can you go for Morgan at 8?

Quite aside from him not plying his trade in the AP, making his selection unlikely, he's entertaining playing for Wales, so I would question his dedication to the England shirt, and there's what I've said before:

A lot of praise was heaped on Morgan last season, but he hasn't really been tested. He barely featured in their HC campaign (just the Treviso games) and he's yet to face Heaslip, O'Brien or Leamy. Thomas most definitely got the better of him when Ospreys beat Scarlets 60-17 last.

No different to Toby Faletau who is one of the best number eights in the world right now...!
The days of England picking an international team full of hardened HEC winners stopped nearly ten years ago. English rugby as a club game isn't where it was. One English team always does well in the HEC but not several like ten years ago.

Living in past glories will not help you build for the future.

maesteg, I wouldn't go quite that far just yet - he's playing very well, and is part of an outstanding backrow unit, but I think he's got a way to go before he can be considered in the same light as Parisse, Harinordiquay, Read, etc. - I believe that he might get there if he carries on like he is tho

He just out played Harinourdiquy and Heaslip two of the best. I guess we will have to wait for the match ups against Ried and Parisse.

Simple answer is too few people/leaders prepared to change things when the game isn't going to plan. We have seen time and time again, opposition teams piling into the breakdown and England not responding to the threat. Scotland did it brilliantly the last two games we played them. When teams do this England panic and give away penalties.

Ok, we won both games, but England's players have to realise that they are not the only team trying to play in any given match, and be aware of what the opposition are trying to do.

It's clear that the team have been told to commit minimum numbers to the breakdown. But when we are getting mullered someone on the field has to change the tactics. Sadly we no longer have the players with the nous to play the game 'on the hoof' as it unfolds.

Haven't had since the last RWC.