Pakistan spot fixing trial

First topic message reminder :

The final spot fixing trial got underway the other day, and the cases of amir asif and butt.

however another 3 names have been brought up today, and accused of spot fixing.. these players are.

Kamran Akmal
Umar Akmal
Wahab Riaz.

What did ICC ban them for?

rich1uk wrote:so what

if you read the relevant sections of the ICC code of conduct they could still be found guilty of breaking that without breaking any national laws

i dont know how many times i have to say that

the standards of evidence are different as is what actions constitute a breach

Nonsense, they have now been found guilty of breaking national laws, and if anyone thinks , with that much evidence against them, that codes of conduct from contolling authorities should have any relevance, Well!!

skyeman wrote:

rich1uk wrote:so what

if you read the relevant sections of the ICC code of conduct they could still be found guilty of breaking that without breaking any national laws

i dont know how many times i have to say that

the standards of evidence are different as is what actions constitute a breach

Nonsense, they have now been found guilty of breaking national laws, and if anyone thinks , with that much evidence against them, that codes of conduct from contolling authorities should have any relevance, Well!!

sorry but thats not what i said

of course the breach of national laws is more serious , i never implied otherwise

i was replying to earlier comments that they were bound to be found guilty in this criminal action otherwise the ICC wouldn't have banned them when the two things are very different. in fact given i have quite clearly said the ICC code of conduct requires lower standards of evidence than a criminal case under UK law then i dont really know what you are complaining at me about ?

rich1uk wrote:

skyeman wrote:

rich1uk wrote:so what

if you read the relevant sections of the ICC code of conduct they could still be found guilty of breaking that without breaking any national laws

i dont know how many times i have to say that

the standards of evidence are different as is what actions constitute a breach

Nonsense, they have now been found guilty of breaking national laws, and if anyone thinks , with that much evidence against them, that codes of conduct from contolling authorities should have any relevance, Well!!

sorry but thats not what i said

of course the breach of national laws is more serious , i never implied otherwise

i was replying to earlier comments that they were bound to be found guilty in this criminal action otherwise the ICC wouldn't have banned them when the two things are very different. in fact given i have quite clearly said the ICC code of conduct requires lower standards of evidence than a criminal case under UK law then i dont really know what you are complaining at me about ?

Got u Rich, sorry, was just replying to your post about my post. Read all the post's now and see your point.

no prob

i thought you might have just missed the context of that last post

rich, ICC to banned them for the same breach or charges which are corruption. So having been implicted in a corruption charge earlier there was a slim or nil hope for them to get aquitted.

Djoker is in Nadal's head wrote:rich, ICC to banned them for the same breach or charges which are corruption. So having been implicted in a corruption charge earlier there was a slim or nil hope for them to get aquitted.

sorry but thats not right

the charges themselves might have been the same but the standards of evidence required and the actions required to be found in breach of the ICC's code of conduct are very different from what is required to be guilty of breaking a national law

i'm not saying they should have been found not guilty or that in this case there were not parallels between the two but thats not the same thing as saying being previously found guilty by the ICC automatically meant the criminal case would go against them as well

wow wrote:

anu_d wrote:

cricketfan90 wrote:The final spot fixing trial got underway the other day, and the cases of amir asif and butt.

however another 3 names have been brought up today, and accused of spot fixing.. these players are.

Kamran Akmal
Umar Akmal
Wahab Riaz.

a sham
spineless Pak board to allow their players to be tried in UK

the fixing took place in UK so this makes sense and they were involved as well. i think board knew that anyway. they want to make out an example of these guys.

Then Alec Stewart showuld be sent to India.
Delhi Police still has a pending warrant in his name for being involved in match fixing.

rich1uk wrote:

liverbnz wrote:Good to see. They have done so much damage to cricket to Pakistan and seem to have no remorse for it.

As for Amir, there were no criminal charges brought against him. His punishment from the ICC is a separate issue.

are you sure thats right about amir ?

afaik he was charged with the same offences but pleaded guilty so did not go to trial and i assume he will be sentenced seperately as a result

GG wrote:Amir and Majeed pleaded guilty, hence why they weren't part of the trial.

Thanks for enlightening me, I wasn't aware that Amir was facing criminal charges.


Also, correct me if I'm wrong here (again!) but isn't the criminal case all about whether or not they accepted money to bowl these no-balls, whilst the crimes against cricket, which is where the ICC bans come in, were just that they intentionally bowled the no-balls?

apparently the players will be given their punishements today. The most they can get is 7 years in prison, and they are apparently very likely to get some sort of prison sentence

liverbnz wrote:

rich1uk wrote:

liverbnz wrote:Good to see. They have done so much damage to cricket to Pakistan and seem to have no remorse for it.

As for Amir, there were no criminal charges brought against him. His punishment from the ICC is a separate issue.

are you sure thats right about amir ?

afaik he was charged with the same offences but pleaded guilty so did not go to trial and i assume he will be sentenced seperately as a result

GG wrote:Amir and Majeed pleaded guilty, hence why they weren't part of the trial.

Thanks for enlightening me, I wasn't aware that Amir was facing criminal charges.


Also, correct me if I'm wrong here (again!) but isn't the criminal case all about whether or not they accepted money to bowl these no-balls, whilst the crimes against cricket, which is where the ICC bans come in, were just that they intentionally bowled the no-balls?

Its nothing to do with cricket.They have been charged with corruption and conspiracy to cheat which under the UK law is a crime.The fact that this happened during a cricket match is purely co incidental.
This is what someone told me.

Seven years will be too harsh on them as there are so many who are roaming freely commiting the same crime.
Only fault of these guys is that they have been caught.

Djoker is in Nadal's head wrote:Seven years will be too harsh on them as there are so many who are roaming freely commiting the same crime.
Only fault of these guys is that they have been caught.

maybe on amer but it would be fair on the other 2

a strong stance is needed

Did anyone get sentenced to Prison when Italian football clubs were found to be fixing matches?

yes

but its irrelevant

different countries have different laws and different mandates regarding sentences

Djoker is in Nadal's head wrote:Did anyone get sentenced to Prison when Italian football clubs were found to be fixing matches?

i think demotion to serie b was enough punishment

jro786 wrote:

Djoker is in Nadal's head wrote:Did anyone get sentenced to Prison when Italian football clubs were found to be fixing matches?

i think demotion to serie b was enough punishment

Not really rich, demotion means that you are still living in free world and given a chance to remorse.

that wasn't my answer you replied to

there were at least three people jailed , over a dozen people were given bans from football ranging from a few months to life

as well as fines and sanctions against the clubs involved

but as i said thats all irrelevant to this case as different countries have different legal systems

Djoker is in Nadal's head wrote:Seven years will be too harsh on them as there are so many who are roaming freely commiting the same crime.
Only fault of these guys is that they have been caught.

That's their only fault?

And since when was a punishment's severity set by how many people are getting away with a certain crime?

Bizarre post.

i think we are losing sight of the original post. it is about these 3 players and 3 these players alone. They have to be punished, they cant be allowed to get away with this!

cricketfan90 wrote:i think we are losing sight of the original post. it is about these 3 players and 3 these players alone. They have to be punished, they cant be allowed to get away with this!

i think butt and asif should be given a heavier sentence compared with amer

yh as do i, and he will.

liverbnz wrote:

Djoker is in Nadal's head wrote:Seven years will be too harsh on them as there are so many who are roaming freely commiting the same crime.
Only fault of these guys is that they have been caught.

That's their only fault?

And since when was a punishment's severity set by how many people are getting away with a certain crime?

Bizarre post.

Okay, compare this thing with F1 saga of stealing documets or fixing a race by causing an accident and to the match fixing in football. Butt only did spot fixing and he could face prison for seven years.

Let me remind you there was no prison sentence either for briatore, piquet, hamilton or dennis.

cricketfan90 wrote:i think we are losing sight of the original post. it is about these 3 players and 3 these players alone. They have to be punished, they cant be allowed to get away with this!

They are not getting away with it anyway. All I am saying that these are not the only three involved in this. Cheating and corrpuption has been associated with sports for long time but there haven't been too many prison sentences. Out of memory I can only remember Marion Jones got done for doping but Ben Jhonson, Justin Gatlin, Agassi, Floyd landis and so many others did get away scot free.

Djoker is in Nadal's head wrote:

liverbnz wrote:

Djoker is in Nadal's head wrote:Seven years will be too harsh on them as there are so many who are roaming freely commiting the same crime.
Only fault of these guys is that they have been caught.

That's their only fault?

And since when was a punishment's severity set by how many people are getting away with a certain crime?

Bizarre post.

Okay, compare this thing with F1 saga of stealing documets or fixing a race by causing an accident and to the match fixing in football. Butt only did spot fixing and he could face prison for seven years.

Let me remind you there was no prison sentence either for briatore, piquet, hamilton or dennis.

I suspect jursidiction came into it - the Piquet incident happened in Singapore, so presumeably that's covered in Singapore's courts. I think too Picquet got immunity in return for offering to testify?

From memory the Italian police investigated the F1 document theft, I can't remember if there were any charges resulting - but remember several members of the Williams team faced manslaughter charges in Italy over Senna's fatal accident.

cricketfan90 wrote:yh as do i, and he will.

Out of interest, why should Amir be banned/jailed for less long?

Mike Selig wrote:

cricketfan90 wrote:yh as do i, and he will.

Out of interest, why should Amir be banned/jailed for less long?

He'll probably be given 'credit' for pleading guilty and expressing remorse, plus mitigating factors of his age plus pressure exerted by his team captain.

Kiwireddevil wrote:

Mike Selig wrote:

cricketfan90 wrote:yh as do i, and he will.

Out of interest, why should Amir be banned/jailed for less long?

He'll probably be given 'credit' for pleading guilty and expressing remorse, plus mitigating factors of his age plus pressure exerted by his team captain.

I'll accept the guilty plea, and possibly pressure exerted by the captain. Age shouldn't be a factor though. If any of the 17 year-olds I coach were found guilty of what he did... well let's just say they wouldn't play for a team I coached ever again.

Djoker is in Nadal's head wrote:

liverbnz wrote:

Djoker is in Nadal's head wrote:Seven years will be too harsh on them as there are so many who are roaming freely commiting the same crime.
Only fault of these guys is that they have been caught.

That's their only fault?

And since when was a punishment's severity set by how many people are getting away with a certain crime?

Bizarre post.

Okay, compare this thing with F1 saga of stealing documets or fixing a race by causing an accident and to the match fixing in football. Butt only did spot fixing and he could face prison for seven years.

Let me remind you there was no prison sentence either for briatore, piquet, hamilton or dennis.

Whether any of those you mentioned were punished or not is irrelevant. This is a separate case entirely, one in which 2 players have been found guilty according to the law. Therefore they should be punished according to the law, not by "oh, those boys in the other sport got away with, so why shouldn't we?" which is quite frankly a schoolboy arguement.

For the record, I do think all those you mentioned should have punished under criminal law, but for whatever reason they haven't. I also think that team orders in F1 should be banned by law, alhougth I'm not sure how easy that would be to implement given the spread of countries F1 operates in.

Mike Selig wrote:

Kiwireddevil wrote:

Mike Selig wrote:

cricketfan90 wrote:yh as do i, and he will.

Out of interest, why should Amir be banned/jailed for less long?

He'll probably be given 'credit' for pleading guilty and expressing remorse, plus mitigating factors of his age plus pressure exerted by his team captain.

I'll accept the guilty plea, and possibly pressure exerted by the captain. Age shouldn't be a factor though. If any of the 17 year-olds I coach were found guilty of what he did... well let's just say they wouldn't play for a team I coached ever again.

Not really the same thing is it though? You can't really compare the Pakistan national team to an U-17 amateur side. The circumstances are competely different, as I'm sure it would be easier to say no to your U-17 captain than the captain of your country, especially given that Amir may well have thought his selection in the side depended on it.

I don't think any of the information coming out in court is a great shock but it's incredible how, having pleaded not guilty, the players and Majeed now see fit to tell the world the truth.

Asif got £65k of the £77,500 Majeed received from the News of the World - Amir, a bowler of immense promise and so young in the game he could have been a legend within a few years, received just £2,500.
His career has been ruined for £2,500.
Suggestions also that Asif received so much because there were fears he would join another group of fixers which has caused uproar that other Pakistan players were also spot fixing through other fixers.
Majeed also has said that other players are involved from other countries - as I always feared, you'll never get to the bottom of this, it's deep rooted.....

majeed also said he was friends with brad pitt and roger federer tho as well as some other fairly obvious boasts

Amir ruined his careers for £2000, crazy how much Asif got paid.

liverbnz wrote:

Mike Selig wrote:

Kiwireddevil wrote:

Mike Selig wrote:

cricketfan90 wrote:yh as do i, and he will.

Out of interest, why should Amir be banned/jailed for less long?

He'll probably be given 'credit' for pleading guilty and expressing remorse, plus mitigating factors of his age plus pressure exerted by his team captain.

I'll accept the guilty plea, and possibly pressure exerted by the captain. Age shouldn't be a factor though. If any of the 17 year-olds I coach were found guilty of what he did... well let's just say they wouldn't play for a team I coached ever again.

Not really the same thing is it though? You can't really compare the Pakistan national team to an U-17 amateur side. The circumstances are competely different, as I'm sure it would be easier to say no to your U-17 captain than the captain of your country, especially given that Amir may well have thought his selection in the side depended on it.

Disagree. There is a basic issue of right and wrong. You know it is wrong to deliberately bowl a no-ball when you are 17.

majeed has also pled guilty to corruption charges before the trial started

looks like the lawyers are trying to say the whole of pakistan cricket is corrupt as an excuse for what the three players did in an attempt to influence the sentences

amirs lawyer also said that lords was the first time amir ever got involved in fixing whereas some of his team-mates had been involved for a long time previously

wonder if we will ever know just how far this went

after hearing the statements from the players and lawyers the case is adjourned for the day and sentences will be announced by the judge at 10am tomorrow

also details from Majeed came out yesterday, about potential fixing in the sydney test

cricketfan90 wrote:also details from Majeed came out yesterday, about potential fixing in the sydney test

Not surprising really although I wont accuse anyone until it is proven.It just beggared belief how many simple catches they dropped and how they threw their wickets away.If that was match fixing then I must say it would be far worse than this spot fixing IMO.

na im not accusing either mate, i have been following the trial closely, but i wont accuse either until we know for defo.

cricketfan90 wrote:na im not accusing either mate, i have been following the trial closely, but i wont accuse either until we know for defo.

I never you said you did,i was just stating my opinion.

Butt 30 months in prison and Asif 1 year

Majeed 2 years 8 months

Asif 1 year

Amir 6 months



Butt 30 months

Salmon Butt has received 2 years, six months and his agent Majeed, 2 years 8 months, with Amir and Asif also expected to be caged. I for one was not expecting such sentence's, but in the case of Butt and Asif not pleading guilty, with the evidence stacked against them (especially when Amir pleaded guilty), Maybe they deserve it. What a deterrent for any future would-be cheats.

shocking decision

in all honesty that is pathetic

All are only likely to serve half the prison term before being released on license - now THAT is pathetic

Not the expected sentances.

Just merging this with main thread, mate.

Davie wrote:All are only likely to serve half the prison term before being released on license - now THAT is pathetic

That is standard for any sentencing - no reason they should be treated differently to anyone who goes through the legal system for fraud.

Personally I think the sentences are in 3 cases about right - Asif was a bit lucky to just get 1 year.

Does anyone know where they will serve their time?