French written off.... Heard that one before in a WC.

First topic message reminder :

I'm not sure how the average England fan feels about tomorrow mornings quarter final against the French, but the English media are already eyeing up the winner of the Wales, Ireland game.
Out of all the teams to be written off, France are surely the team you can never take for granted. Ask new Zealand. Brian Moore and the rest of the awful talksport WC team are soooooo confident, as are several former players.
Ok. France look in disarray. They lost to tonga. They have a scrum half playing 10. They also have a fantastic back row and class out wide. This game is a one-off and if englands confidence is just coming from how poor France look, they are in for a big fall. I mean England don't even know wholl be taking their place kicks. They give away penalties for fun and only just got past Argentina and Scotland.
The most predictable team in world rugby against the least predictable.
This is going to be a cracker and I fancy France to get off to a flyer and SHOCK the not so mighty English.

HERSH wrote:SA V Eng final

FACT!

Thats impossible because England are in the left side of the draw and SA on the right

I don't think England play the sort of game which would allow France to shock them.

France often put in their shock performances against teams that are open to throwing the ball around, play an expansive game like NZ & Aus.

This allows them to play with a bit of flair which can leave the opposition a little in awe of their skills.

As England often keep things tight and often play 10 man rugby for much of the match they will suck in the French into playing this sort of game which restricts running rugby.
As this frustrates the French they often come away second best and its exactly how I see the game going tomorrow.

England know that if they get under the skin of the French early doors then the cracks will appear and they will not play as a unit. To come back in a game requires faith in your fellow players, their skills and your own.

If France are down at halftime they won't come back.

fa0019 wrote:I don't think England play the sort of game which would allow France to shock them.

France often put in their shock performances against teams that are open to throwing the ball around, play an expansive game like NZ & Aus.

This allows them to play with a bit of flair which can leave the opposition a little in awe of their skills.

As England often keep things tight and often play 10 man rugby for much of the match they will suck in the French into playing this sort of game which restricts running rugby.
As this frustrates the French they often come away second best and its exactly how I see the game going tomorrow.

Normally I would agree with that but I'm not sure that England will be able to dominate France up front the way they usually do. The English scrum has struggled since Sheridans injury and I think the French will fancy taking on the English pack.

You are right that France are a counterrattacking side and traditionally England have their number but I'm not convinced that England will be able to dominate the French physically on Saturday.

Im predicting an Englsih win and Im welsh. Dont think you can stereotype us "celts" so easily beshocked, typical english arrogance

Comfort wrote:Im predicting an Englsih win and Im welsh. Dont think you can stereotype us "celts" so easily beshocked, typical english arrogance

Well to be fair you've predicted a Welsh win too so I'm not sure your predictions are up to much ....

roddersm wrote:

Comfort wrote:Im predicting an Englsih win and Im welsh. Dont think you can stereotype us "celts" so easily beshocked, typical english arrogance

Well to be fair you've predicted a Welsh win too so I'm not sure your predictions are up to much ....

and to think, i would have got away with it if it wasnt for you pesky kids!

From an English fan, just about to tuck himself into bed on Auckland's North Shore, before heading off to the big match @ Eden Park tomorrow,

As always before a England vs France match, I'm confident but nervous at the same time. We all know England have a good track record against the French, we also know that France have one great performance every RWC (which they haven't yet this time round), and that France play best when they are underestimated.

But forgetting the distant past what of the actual teams so far this tournament;

England;

Underperforming, playing within themselves, yet still winning all their games, against good performances from the Argies and the Jocks, who are well known for dragging the opposition down to their level (no offence intended, but look at the world rankings). They have given away a lot of penalties but no more than most teams. They have only conceded one try. They have worked games out and improved as the match has progressed to get the win. They have missed numerous shots at goal, if Flood had been kicking with his 75% rate so far, they would have cruised through the two close matches to date. By picking Wilko & Flood, MJ has selected players that should be able to unleash Manu, Foden, Ashton & Cueto much better than Tindall has (of course he could have this completely wrong, but it's unlike MJ to gamble, so I'm backing him).

France;

Great players, whoever takes the field even if they are out of position. Not playing as a team, no confidence, no form, no clear direction from the management. I don't doubt for one minute that they won't come out tomorrow and give everything, but even so, I think they will have to slowly build their performance as the match progresses. If England take an early lead (albeit small), I just can't see that they will have the confidence and teamship to be able to turn it around.

The media here think that it's an England win and can't see France being able to turn things around. I hope they are right. Yes they have in the past, but previously is was a form issue, not an infighting issue.

I agree with others that as much as the media may have written them off, you'd have to be a complete numpty to think that the England team and coaching staff will think the same.

20 hrs til kick off, cant wait to be there................not going to be sleeping well tonight!!!!!!!!!!!

Come on England!

I think England need to start playing a good first half of rugby. Based on second half performances England have actually been very good and on form. But its a game of 80 mins and 40 mins is not enough anymore.

manofgwent wrote:They give away penalties for fun

It's interesting that you should say that, because the most penalties given away by a top tier nation this tournament was Wales in the their last game against Fiji, 17. The only team to have given away more was USA against Italy. the most given away by England was 14 against Georgia, which was the same as Wales against Samoa, NZ against Tonga and Ireland against Australia.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:I think all eight sides still in the tournament will be looking to get an early score...

your right- i dont get that argument- any team in any sport in any game wants an early score.

mystiroakey wrote:

luckless_pedestrian wrote:I think all eight sides still in the tournament will be looking to get an early score...

your right- i dont get that argument- any team in any sport in any game wants an early score.

Yes but sometimes you can sit back and play percentages not wanting to risk ...or you can go all out in attack and play ferociously from the off. See France vs NZ...France palyed hard for an early try...didnt get it...NZ played their weay into the game patiently and blew them off the park once their p1ss and vinegar had worn off.

Obviously all sides want to score all the time but its whether you focus on scoring or not being scored against and whether you take the 3 pointer to settle the nerves or go all out for the try.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

luckless_pedestrian wrote:I think all eight sides still in the tournament will be looking to get an early score...

your right- i dont get that argument- any team in any sport in any game wants an early score.

Yes but sometimes you can sit back and play percentages not wanting to risk ...or you can go all out in attack and play ferociously from the off. See France vs NZ...France palyed hard for an early try...didnt get it...NZ played their weay into the game patiently and blew them off the park once their p1ss and vinegar had worn off.

Obviously all sides want to score all the time but its whether you focus on scoring or not being scored against and whether you take the 3 pointer to settle the nerves or go all out for the try.

Ok i kinda get your point there biscuit.

I think all the teams perhaps bar NZ will be going on the attack from the off. I suppose if we look at how england win alot of there games(last 20 mins) they win on fitness more than anything else or perhaps pacing themselves- the other team can be fried at 60 mins going at as like bulls

Hawalsh. I haven't got the stats, but England have given away a lot of penalties in all their games. From the top tier nations, who gave away the most pens in the group stages? I'm not saying England. Just wondered who.
Also, another argument could be said for, where the pens are conceded. How many shots at goal did Argentina have. England also gave a lot of kickable pens away against the scots. I bet no other top tier team has had more penalty attempts against them than England. Wales may have given penalties to Fiji, but how many points did they concede?

"Not because England have offered anything in this tournament so far."

Similar to 2007....and we made the final. Maybe we're just a boring side thats very good at knock out competitions - a less successful copy of South Africa.

Where has the idea that England is very good at knock out competitions come from? They are the wealthiest union by far with the largest player base. I think a return of just 1 world cup is frankly appalling.

GG - We are not the only ones with only one RWC who 'could do better'

Oh the boring England has the largest player base argument. Sure England has the biggest number of casual players, we invented the game and have the most rugby history so its a given I would have thought.

What about the number of professional English players? Im sure England are probably about equal with France id wager. Professional players are realistically going to be the only ones picked for England.

But you are the only ones going around claiming to be the masters of knock out rugby...

TheGreyGhost wrote:But you are the only ones going around claiming to be the masters of knock out rugby...

Obviously we are. Think Lawes, think Armitage....

TheGreyGhost wrote:But you are the only ones going around claiming to be the masters of knock out rugby...

Usuall GG hyperbolic statements. I think someone said we are very good at knock out rugby, and from the number of world cup finals England have appeared in recently its not the most outrageous statement.

manofgwent wrote:Hawalsh. I haven't got the stats, but England have given away a lot of penalties in all their games. From the top tier nations, who gave away the most pens in the group stages? I'm not saying England. Just wondered who.

I haven't got time to go through all the teams' games and total them up, but on average England conceded 1 penalty more per game than Wales, 13 v 12.

I don’t see many English posters on this site completely writing the French off, most of us are nervous of the French unpredictability.

It’s funny how we always find ourselves in a no win situation though isn’t? Say we do beat France tomorrow; everybody will agree it is because they were merde. If we get beat, we’ll get the old ‘I told you so’ and some people will rejoice. I genuinely get fed up of the attitude sometimes.

I think reasonable posters will judge the performance of each team, rather than being so one dimensional cumbrian.

TheGreyGhost wrote:I think reasonable posters will judge the performance of each team, rather than being so one dimensional cumbrian.

Perhaps so, but I'll be working on my small man persecution complex until I see it.

England are brilliant and France are rubbish

We're going to win this World Cup and there's nothing any of you can do about it.

That's about as much thought and insight this article deserves.

What a waste of time.

hawalsh wrote:

manofgwent wrote:Hawalsh. I haven't got the stats, but England have given away a lot of penalties in all their games. From the top tier nations, who gave away the most pens in the group stages? I'm not saying England. Just wondered who.

I haven't got time to go through all the teams' games and total them up, but on average England conceded 1 penalty more per game than Wales, 13 v 12.

From the first 3 games it was New Zealand (no yellow cards), havent seen the stats since

got to say-if I was a saes fan then I would be very worried-our friends from across the channel have been a shambles up until now-will they turn up in the morning and decide they want to play the game? if they do then beware !

If France were playing really well, would we be expected to thrash them?

yep -cos then they would have their obligatory s***e game

senghenydd1913 wrote:got to say-if I was a saes fan then I would be very worried-our friends from across the channel have been a shambles up until now-will they turn up in the morning and decide they want to play the game? if they do then beware !

Just as well you're not then, you can relax and watch Wales teach Ireland a thing or to can't you?

And it's Saesneg to you, unless you're the type of person who refers to people from Pakistan as P a k i s?

PJHolybloke wrote:

senghenydd1913 wrote:got to say-if I was a saes fan then I would be very worried-our friends from across the channel have been a shambles up until now-will they turn up in the morning and decide they want to play the game? if they do then beware !

Just as well you're not then, you can relax and watch Wales teach Ireland a thing or to can't you?

And it's Saesneg to you, unless you're the type of person who refers to people from Pakistan as P a k i s?

More likely the sort that really annoys Indians by calling them that

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

PJHolybloke wrote:

senghenydd1913 wrote:got to say-if I was a saes fan then I would be very worried-our friends from across the channel have been a shambles up until now-will they turn up in the morning and decide they want to play the game? if they do then beware !

Just as well you're not then, you can relax and watch Wales teach Ireland a thing or to can't you?

And it's Saesneg to you, unless you're the type of person who refers to people from Pakistan as P a k i s?

More likely the sort that really annoys Indians by calling them that

Man you crack me right up. PSW - finger on the pulse of 606.

doh -what a surrogate PJHB is!-two things-saesneg is collective-saes is singular-can you get any further up PSBW (who ,I might add,is one of the more enlightened posters on here)? pehaps we should enter into a discussion on the stucture of languages ? saes(or saesneg) didnt start as derogatory,nor should it be taken as now-tis but a name for saxon/the saxon type of sword/

The origin of a word doesn't really matter. Another term that is almost universally frowned upon came from the Latin for black.

First time I've ever heard anyone get fussy about Saes.

can you get any further up PSBW (who ,I might add,is one of the more enlightened posters on here)

Are you kidding? He's a massive WUM (but a good one)

senghenydd1913 wrote:doh -what a surrogate PJHB is!-two things-saesneg is collective-saes is singular-can you get any further up PSBW (who ,I might add,is one of the more enlightened posters on here)? pehaps we should enter into a discussion on the stucture of languages ? saes(or saesneg) didnt start as derogatory,nor should it be taken as now-tis but a name for saxon/the saxon type of sword/

Whoooooooo 'ark at 'er.

Happy to have a discussion on the constructs of language, Saesneg was indeed the proper name given to the long, broad, double-edged sword that the Saxons used to weild some 16 centuries ago, and did indeed "evolve" (if one can use that term about a word that has been unchanged for so long) into the Welsh language proper noun for the English.

Perhaps you would be so good as to direct me to a reputable Welsh to English translation service so I might learn for myself precisely what Saes means, as I appear to have a different opinion to your goodself.

Thanks awfully.

no worries -try the mabinogion-although it might be a tad too much for you.

nevertheless,regardless of your antagonism I wish you and your countrymen well tomorrow.

You're probably right the Mabinogion is probably out of my league, I had enough trouble with Star Wars and that only had six parts.

I did check Saes out using the online Welsh to English translator kindly provided by The University of Wales Trinity St David though.

Unfortunately their dictionary didn't recognise the word, obviously an oversight, I mean who could imagine that such an ancient and so well respected seat of academic learning wouldn't know what Saes meant?

Oh well, I'm sure you'll put them right when you've got a space in your busy schedule.

All the best for tomorrow.

look -how many times do I have to tell you PJ-saes doesnt start with a capital letter!

It's clearly not a Proper Noun then is it?

gg just remjember what this world cups all about- thats for the hosts to try and loose there chokers tag.

"Where has the idea that England is very good at knock out competitions come from? They are the wealthiest union by far with the largest player base. I think a return of just 1 world cup is frankly appalling. ."

I was merely suggesting that reaching 3 WC finals and winning one, would say we are handy at knock out competitions. Similar to SA that tends to play a similar type of rugby...and who have two wins...and im predicting a 3rd this year. And bringing up the player base arguement has been done to death...do you have no new material??

"But you are the only ones going around claiming to be the masters of knock out rugby...."

At what point did i say MASTERS?? Whilst your here in old Blighty my good chap...i would take a few English lessons....

You've won one, just one.

Getting an easy ride to the final and then losing it, doesn't make you a great knock out rugby team.

South Africa and Australia have both won two, and frankly even the team you lot accuse of being arch-chokers, NZ have won as many as England.

Either winning one makes you a choker, or means you are a great knock-out rugby team. I don't get it. It's just not logical.

NZ are classed as chokers...because they perpetually claim to be the best rugby team in the known universe.....but perpetually fail come the WC

We are a good knock out team because hey despite out "huge player base" we arent always the best in the NH let alone the world...yet always tend to do fairly well in the WC's. And i class making the final a pretty good achievement for any team......

How is that different to England?, who perpetually claim that the knock out rugby is their forte, and yet have only won as many as NZ?

Because NZ's expectations and their ability would suggest they should have won many more....however Englands expectations being less...to win one and make two other finals is a pretty good achievement.

Your expectations are less? How does that tally with your claim that you expect to win based on your reputation as unstoppable masters of knock out rugby?

Are you saying you expect to lose?

"based on your reputation as unstoppable masters of knock out rugby?"

Okey Dokey.....

HERSH wrote:SA V Eng final

FACT!

Nz vs eng.
Havnt seen enough of either Eng or France to say who will win their match but the traditional style of england puts them in by default.

Odd there is no oz underdog post because nearly everyone has written them off.

SA should win for the same reason as England. Traditionally that style wins when all things are even.
Just beware of a wounded wallaby. Their guns are back and it wouldnt surprise me if the rugby world is talking about them tomorrow night.
Ireland and their experience to come through.
Looking forward to that one immensely.

France have``nt performed yet but have a strong setpiece,good back row,flair if they need it.But most important of all two of the most consistent
goal kickers in Yachvilli and Parra.
England have against the only two real opponents showed little,there set pieces have been good,but at the breakdown indifferent.
Conceding too many penalties,it s ok saying well at least Jonny will drop the vital goals.
But France do them too ,it is of course presumptoius to assume it will be the traditional grind them down job.
Purely on the relevant form in this RWC i expect a narrow England win.

I respectfully withdraw my whinge, people have been pretty good sports so far.