Irish Post mortem

First topic message reminder :

This thread is going to be painful and its time the gloves came off so if you dont like it just ignore it. But Im absolutely sick to the back teeth about what I heard tonight all of which blamed the defeat on ROG and Murray. Heres my take on it



1. Lets get one thing straight -Wales have a better team 1 to 15. I only found this out today but its clear. Their strenght and physicality was superior. They owned the break down which is where they won game. Our half backs were under severe pressure and were forced to change there plans at the last second every time. Warburten murdered us here.

2. Roberts absolutely killed us. And it wasnt in the 10 channel. BOD and Darcy are now the most ineffective centres in top tier Interantional rugby. For the second try Darcy shouted at players that he had the blindside covered - by f**k did he.

3. Front row - Irelands front row has been a revelation in the last 6 months and I am loathed to even think about criticising any player here. Cian Healy and Mike Ross have brought Ireland to this top table and simply have been brilliant. Didnt go well today.

4. Back row - Irelands best weapon in the games where we have turned up. One player has been absent - Heaslip. P. O'Mahony now has to be looked at as a replacement. You cant live on reputation. Would SOB have done so well against Australia if they had a natural 7 Pocock playing??? Not a criticism of SOB as he is not a natural 7. I believe you can live without a natural 7 as long as you commit men to the breakdown.

5. ROG and Murray - ROG had a terrible game - two over cooked kicks in the first half lost us good field position. Some sympathy for Murray as the break down was a mess because we didnt commit numbers and failed to secure our own ball. Pack was going backwards at the rate of knots all day. Did Sexton and Reddan make any difference - imo no- reddans first contribution was 2 poor box kicks into mid field and sexton first kick was an aimless kick into mid field which led to the third try.



Why we lost - the game was lost in the pack. Wales totally dominated here slowing down our ball at best and turning it over at best. Everything Preistland touched turned to gold. Roberts was a human wrecking ball.



Reirements


2. BOD great season in 09 for GS but is just falling off tackles now and not making breaks. Possibly move to 12 but I think should now retire

3. ROG - will retire

4.DOC - times up -great servant

5.Darcy - time to step aside - one of Irelands best ever 12s if not the best

Nos na Gaoithe wrote:So who do we think actually showed up for Ireland:

Best (leads my list)
Kearney (thought he had an impressive WC overall and was solid from what I can remember against Wales)
Ferris (did his job well even if he was somewhat tamed overall)
Reddan played well when he came on

I think Best stood out for me. POC and Ferris tried hard. Kearney looked classy in the things he did but still doesn't seem to offer enough in attack.

BOD and D'arcy showed some nice touches in attack but were outmatched by bigger, younger and faster opponents.

Individually I woudn't really fault anyones effort but our tactics and descision making were very naive and certain units like the midfield were exposed as being underpowered in attack and defence. We had no plan B when our backrow ball carriers were nullified as was exposed at Landsdowne against England when Wallace went off.

In terms of the tactics you have to point the finger at the coaches, senior players and half backs and in terms of the selection of the units the buck must stop with Kidney.

roddersm wrote:

Nos na Gaoithe wrote:So who do we think actually showed up for Ireland:

Best (leads my list)
Kearney (thought he had an impressive WC overall and was solid from what I can remember against Wales)
Ferris (did his job well even if he was somewhat tamed overall)
Reddan played well when he came on

I think Best stood out for me. POC and Ferris tried hard. Kearney looked classy in the things he did but still doesn't seem to offer enough in attack.

BOD and D'arcy showed some nice touches in attack but were outmatched by bigger, younger and faster opponents.

Individually I woudn't really fault anyones effort but our tactics and descision making were very naive and certain units like the midfield were exposed as being underpowered in attack and defence. We had no plan B when our backrow ball carriers were nullified as was exposed at Landsdowne against England when Wallace went off.

In terms of the tactics you have to point the finger at the coaches, senior players and half backs and in terms of the selection of the units the buck must stop with Kidney.

Yeah I used the wrong phrasing there. Hate when people suggest that players weren't trying... it is almost always to do with the way games are going. Just meant who actually had a good game despite the Welsh onslaught.

Also I gave Healy an honarable mention... but with all the talk of Earls for the 3rd try, I had forgotten that it was Healy who gave the Welsh fella a congratulatory pat on the back before he'd even cross the line. That kind of rules him out for a good game too.

Yeah its all about units Nos. I don't think there's a bad player in our squad(well maybe one or two ).

That ROG- D'arcy-BOD unit was once our greatest strength but now it is a bit of a liability in attack and defence at the highest level. Gatland knew it and now the world knows it. All these guys, individually are still great players but you need pace and power in the midfield and it is very much lacking. The sooner we give Spence and Cave a run the better. Fitzgerald, Bowe and Earls are further options but we have to try other people there.

O'Callaghan like D'arcy is hot and cold. He has a great work rate but lacks strength and power. It was embarressing to see him knocked for six by Roberts. He still has something to offer but I think Touhy and Ryan would strengthen our tight 5.

Overall we have the core of a top side but we need to be more positive and less conservative with our selections.

3rd try was like slow motion .......................................... was horrible. Was Healys man but earls actually stepped in to hit him and then hesitated. The reason i think he did not know that kearney actually had his man on the outside. It was just a cumulative disaster. was like watching in slow motion

The 2nd was bad but essentially it was a 10 yard snipe by by a big scrum half that Darcy failed to cover.

The 3rd try was a result of pressure,the constant defendig on the back foot resulted in a mismatch,the fact that is we needed our LH prop to make a one on one tackle in wide open play against an outside centre.Thats a dream situation for Davies and sadly if it was BoD in that situation I would no longer back him to score from that far out.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:The 3rd try was a result of pressure,the constant defendig on the back foot resulted in a mismatch

Exactly. We were all over the shop at that stage, we'd been in the backfoot for a good 10 minutes and Wales were turning the screw. That try was always coming. It was game over even at that stage.

why not consider a back line of:

15-9 Kearney, Carr, Bowe, Spence, Gilroy, Keatley, Murray

with Sexton, Fitzgerald and Earls on the bench.

Each a specialist starting in his position (yes Spence is an inside centre) together a balanced unit, with the utility coming off the bench.

Glas a du wrote:why not consider a back line of:

15-9 Kearney, Carr, Bowe, Spence, Gilroy, Keatley, Murray

with Sexton, Fitzgerald and Earls on the bench.

Each a specialist starting in his position (yes Spence is an inside centre) together a balanced unit, with the utility coming off the bench.

Err Carr is rubbish that's why...

Woudn't have Keatley ahead of Sexton at this stage. Agree to that Spence looks better at 12 but I think we are alone in that view ( ).

There's lots of options and but whether we will try any of them is another thing.

You lot are hilarious...

The third try came because of the following...
1. Aimless kick up the middle by Sexton followed by punishing kick by Wales into touch on the IRish 22.
2. Best overthrew or didnt hit his man. Turnover to Wales...
3. Roberts took the ball up and took 15 - 20 metres off Sexton (yes the imperious defender Jonathan Sexton)
4. Wales got a mismatch with Healy

Score...



Dublin_Dave...I had a look at the match again, ROG played quite well in fact. We were on the front foot for most of the first half, (he actually defended quite well) and he linked well with the backs and forwards, kicked relatively ok except for a couple of ones but not bad in fact...better than I even thought.

Carr is 'rubbish' then because he does one thing very well (score tries) rather than being a jack of all trades (and master of none). Hmmmm?

Dublin_Dave...I had a look at the match again, ROG played quite well in fact.

Whatever credibility you had, you blew it there.

Not at all Boyne...have you looked at the game again. I decided to this morning (first time since Sat) and it changed my mind on a number of things including on ROGs performance...such as

Darcy didnt play that badly.
Best made a couple of crucial errors at crucial times
Ferris and SOB did quite well considering they were targetted.
The first half we played well but mistakes cost us (as did not taking points when shots at goal were on).
Small decisions and small margins were the difference in the end.
Overall we had our chances.

DOD - 2 dead kicks. Turned down the shot at goal twice whilst down 7 in a RWC QF (Im sure it was his decision) Got turned over twice. A wild pass to nobody....

A great servant, but seriously, time to go. There's probably another HC in him, but Ireland need to move on.

Darcy was awful, Ferris was excellent in the non running stuff, Heaslip was anonymous. SOB did as well as could be expected given his limited ability and the game plan adopted. BOD's decision to go for tries in a cup game was the biggest factor. Ireland played well.

Glas a du wrote:Carr is 'rubbish' then because he does one thing very well (score tries) rather than being a jack of all trades (and master of none). Hmmmm?

No hes rubbish because he can't tackle, catch, pass, kick, break tackles or read the game. He does have a nice hair cut and score lots of tries though but I'd be looking for a bit more than that to be honest.

DOD - 2 dead kicks. Turned down the shot at goal twice whilst down 7 in a RWC QF (Im sure it was his decision) Got turned over twice. A wild pass to nobody....

I dont think the decision to turn down the kicks were his to be fair boyne...it looked as if BOD made them...

Time to finish up...no argument on that.

Glas I though Darcy did well in the first half...after that though...

What was that turning down the 3 points stuff all about??I found it very strange - I thought for a moment OGara didn't fancy the kicks but in such a tight match that decision was suicidal IMO - Maybe they wanted to put a marker down but it actually backfired badly and gave Wales great heart - Strange decisions they were

ROG can't be given the full blame for not taking the kicks, he probably had some involvement. But your pack leader and captain sperheaded the call.

Glas a du wrote:why not consider a back line of:

15-9 Kearney, Carr, Bowe, Spence, Gilroy, Keatley, Murray

with Sexton, Fitzgerald and Earls on the bench.

Each a specialist starting in his position (yes Spence is an inside centre) together a balanced unit, with the utility coming off the bench.

When you say Spence is an inside centre, do you think he actually plays better there or are you saying that because he is currently playing there to accomodate Cave? Because if it is the former I strongly disagree.. at 13 last year he was incredible, this year he isn't as effective (but still a great player).

Boyne wrote:DOD - 2 dead kicks. Turned down the shot at goal twice whilst down 7 in a RWC QF (Im sure it was his decision) Got turned over twice. A wild pass to nobody....

A great servant, but seriously, time to go. There's probably another HC in him, but Ireland need to move on.

Someone posted here yesterday the live match commentary from Sky which said that it looked like O'Gara wanted to take them but he was over ruled.
#

8 Another penalty to Ireland. Not there is a long debate. Looks like ROG wants to kick at goal. Nope...a line-out it is!

http://www1.skysports.com/rugbyworldcup/match/live-commentary/49230/7220125/Ireland-v-Wales-Live

Oh, and Warburton smashes O'Gara for the turnover - hardly surprising.


What did you think of Shane Williams holding up O'Brien for the try. I doubt anyone would have guessed that would happen.

I don't think ROG should get all the blame for the kicks to touch either.. BOD and POC must have had a say in those decisions. O'Gara was just doing what he was told I think.

Thomond wrote:ROG can't be given the full blame for not taking the kicks, he probably had some involvement. But your pack leader and captain sperheaded the call.

Come on chaps it was BOD's call on the kicks. He's the captain, not ROG or POC. Enough of the ROG bashing he didn't play unduly badly at all but for me it was a tactical error not to start with Sexton and we got a lot of our tactics wrong on the day.

It's not about blame but about trying to identify where we fell short and how to improve.

As glas said, we didn't play badly, we just didn't play well enough.

The one thing I'll take from this WC is that Ireland are capable of playing decent rugby consistently.This means that performances like the last 2 6 Nations campaigns where we play like drains most of the time and then play well once are no longer acceptable.
Even if we start to introduce young players there will still be an experienced core of players there so we need to reach a new level.

Wow seems these discussion boards get quite heated at times from reading the postings. For the anti O'Gara brigade it appears as if he is not about to disappear anytime soon.

The overall consensus here seems to think O'Gara selection was the reason we did not do better but the one independent view from Glasadu seems to think he played well. I dont think Sextons selection would have made a difference, although I need to go and look at the game again for my sins.

The only thing I will say is that viewing the posts on how other players did it does appear that some people have just a little provincial bias, especially putting redden over Murray who nearly all pundits picked out as a positive.

I dont suppose that provincial bias would come into that view or indeed the view on O'Gara..ahem..

Time to enjoy the rest of the tournament

[quote="newbie"]Wow seems these discussion boards get quite heated at times from reading the postings. For the anti O'Gara brigade it appears as if he is not about to disappear anytime soon.

The overall consensus here seems to think O'Gara selection was the reason we did not do better but the one independent view from Glasadu seems to think he played well. I dont think Sextons selection would have made a difference, although I need to go and look at the game again for my sins.

The only thing I will say is that viewing the posts on how other players did it does appear that some people have just a little provincial bias, especially putting redden over Murray who nearly all pundits picked out as a positive.

I dont suppose that provincial bias would come into that view or indeed the view on O'Gara..ahem..

Time to enjoy the rest of the tournament [/quote]

I'd have to argee with you on ROG no matter who we had playing at 10 we were going to lose. The team bar a few were simply not up for it, it was not just one selection of a player and how one player played that resulted in us losing, Wales were just the better team.

I doubt any of it is provincial bias.. stop using that as an excuse to cover criticism of a player. Let's just leave the provincial bias crap out, it usually just escalates into something worse.

Hi Rory..just making an observation.

Seems more like an assumption to me.. I am just saying provincial bias rarely comes into it I think for most of the Irish posters here, they genuinely feel player x is better than player y regardless of province.

Wouldn't agree with you Rory. Some players get so much criticism here that its hard to understand how they could actually be gainfully employed as pro rugby players. The favourite targets of this critique are: Tomas O'Leary, Ronan O'Gara, Paddy Wallace, Conor Murray, Tony Buckley, Denis Leamy, Donncha O'Callaghan & Donncha Ryan - Keith Earls gets a bit of stick as well (even though he is Ireland top try scorer in this world cup).

Then there are a few players who just can't do any wrong (an they generally aren't starting to do any wrong

To be fair Sin, O'Leary and Buckley are awful. It doesn't matter whether you're from Munster or the Moon, they are not very good at what they do for international players. Provincial level, ok- I've seen Buckley struggle quite a lot at that level, but it's ok. Internationals, not really.

Of all the players lately, D'Arcy has probably received the most criticism. Sexton has received a lot for his kicks, nobody has been saying his kicking has been good enough this world cup. Jennings under-performed in the matches he played. BOD has also come under fire. I am just pointing out some non-munster players here because bar one, all the players you have listed are from munster.

You have to admit that many of those players are out of form. Though I rate Murray, Ryan and Earls highly and think they are in form. I am delighted Earls scored the most for Ireland and I hope he continues to do so. Leamy played pretty well actually in the USA match, though butchered a try scoring opportunity.

What players do you think can't do any wrong then?

Notch wrote:To be fair Sin, O'Leary and Buckley are awful. It doesn't matter whether you're from Munster or the Moon, they are not very good at what they do for international players. Provincial level, ok- I've seen Buckley struggle quite a lot at that level, but it's ok. Internationals, not really.

O'Leary & Buckley get abused - there is no acknowlegement that O'Leary has obviously being played carrying an injury (back problem). Buckley is extremely injury prone and he too is coming back from an injury.

Rory.. This thread appears to me to be weighted heavily on provincial bias. The picking of Redden over Murray for example, no heavy criticism of certain players who underperformed badly during the wc as well.

I think Buckley is an experiment that has gone on to long though. O'Leary also has his critics and at the moment he is very poor but if he regained the same form as in 09 then I would be happy to see him get another chance for examplr

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Of all the players lately, D'Arcy has probably received the most criticism. Sexton has received a lot for his kicks, nobody has been saying his kicking has been good enough this world cup. Jennings under-performed in the matches he played. BOD has also come under fire. I am just pointing out some non-munster players here because bar one, all the players you have listed are from munster.

You have to admit that many of those players are out of form. Though I rate Murray, Ryan and Earls highly and think they are in form. I am delighted Earls scored the most for Ireland and I hope he continues to do so. Leamy played pretty well actually in the USA match, though butchered a try scoring opportunity.

What players do you think can't do any wrong then?

You might not remember the amount of abuse O'Gara got from the old 606 the year of the Grand Slam because his kicking was way off against England (even though he nailed one at the end and we did win). Sexton didn't get anything like the abuse he got for his poor kicking against Australia. Sexton actually got off very light for his poor kicking. Review the amount of criticism O'Gara gets v the amount of Sexton gets for missing kicks!

Jennings was hardly mentioned - and there were still some people who thought he should been on the bench instead of Leamy even though Jennings just is not physical enough and he can only cover one position. Leamy is referred to as a penalty machine (even though he is a complete amateur penalty machine in comparison to Sean O'Brien & Healy).

Tommy Bowe, Ross, Cullen, BOD, Healy are seemingly players who cannot do any wrong. Everyone seems to ignore the number of penalties that Sean O'Brien gives away as well. And of course there was not a word said about his knock-on from the lineout that ROG got criticised for not kicking and then Shane Williams of all people stopped him grounding!

Its probably with the growth in popularity of the provinces where you get that football type approach from the younger generation who create pantomime villains of some players while hero worshipping others, usually in their own team.

Hence big bad Ronan who has done lots of damage to the other provinces over the years is public enemy no.1 to many, mind you Sexton gets enough abuse from Munster supporters as well.

Well Shane Williams of all people managed to stop a 6 foot 7 Banahan from crossing the line.. I wouldn't slate his ability at preventing tries. I have seen all of those players receive criticism in some form or another this world cup.. tbh I think you are just noticing the munster players a lot more when their names pop up. Otherwise you should look harder because I have seen all those players receive criticism.

Some people prefer Reddan because they think he is a better player than Murray and works better with Sexton. Personally I prefer Murray but it isn't provincial bias that is causing people to prefer Reddan. Once again I think you are too quick to pull out the provincial bias card..

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Well Shane Williams of all people managed to stop a 6 foot 7 Banahan from crossing the line.. I wouldn't slate his ability at preventing tries. I have seen all of those players receive criticism in some form or another this world cup.. tbh I think you are just noticing the munster players a lot more when their names pop up. Otherwise you should look harder because I have seen all those players receive criticism.

Some people prefer Reddan because they think he is a better player than Murray and works better with Sexton. Personally I prefer Murray but it isn't provincial bias that is causing people to prefer Reddan. Once again I think you are too quick to pull out the provincial bias card..

I wouldn't slate SOB either for it - but Tony Buckley was slated for something similar (can't remember who it was who held him up). And there is a video tribute on Utube of Shane Williams handing off O'Gara that has about a trillion hits

I'm sure you are unbiased - but I do think that for instance Reddan's lack of physicality is overlooked completely by some (and he usually makes a couple of poor decisions in each match that are also overlooked).

I personally don't mind criticism - but look at Boyne's comments for instance, and convince me that he isn't provincially biased.

Edit: I also had a run in with pete about Denis Leamy who he referred to as a penalty machine and even when I provided all the stats comparing him to the other back rowers (thats how I know how poor SOB & Heaslip discipline are), he wouldn't withdraw it.

Well the key word I guess is MOST of the posters here don't seem biased. I don't think Leamy is just as bad as a lot of people make out either but I think he is a fair bit down the pecking order.

What do you think of Peter O'Mahoney btw Sin? I was very impressed with his performance at 8 over the weekend.. to me he should be challenging Heaslip in the near future.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I doubt any of it is provincial bias.. stop using that as an excuse to cover criticism of a player. Let's just leave the provincial bias crap out, it usually just escalates into something worse.

Youve got to be joking - you can tell whose from what province within about 5 seconds of reading most peoples post me inlcuded. Then theres the odd one or two that go the opposite way to prove they are not biased.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Well the key word I guess is MOST of the posters here don't seem biased. I don't think Leamy is just as bad as a lot of people make out either but I think he is a fair bit down the pecking order.

What do you think of Peter O'Mahoney btw Sin? I was very impressed with his performance at 8 over the weekend.. to me he should be challenging Heaslip in the near future.

Been captain for Munster all year and has played in 5 of the 6 games. Has been superb and most definitely will be challenging Heaslip.

Like I said from most posters I don't see provincial bias, but atm I am changing my mind because that is now 3 munster supporters telling me there is.. by and large I don't see provincial bias.

Trimble was Ireland's best player for example during the warm ups, and was so unlucky to lose out but many Ulster supporters understood why Earls was picked instead. Earls delivered this world cup as well, so it was a good call.

And about POM do you think his best position is 8? I think he had his best match there at the weekend when he was selected at 8.

O'Mahony is over-hyped.

By who? I don't see him mentioned that often actually, hence why I am asking for the opinion of some munster fans. I have seen him a few times for munster this year and I was very impressed, he is a real talented player.

POM is going to be captain of Ireland one day. I was disappointed he didnt make the grade last year for the HC squad. He reminds me of Phillip Matthews when he was younger.. he has a mean streak and probably needs to curb his hotheadedness which is possibly why they made him Captain. But if there was ever a person who will put their body on the line constantly then POM is one of them.

Hell yes I am biased but I would hope that I am able to criticise a player without having to go on an individual witch hunt. Some are good at hiding it others not. There are even a few who will write a very long post explaining how ireland did this that or the other wrong and then blame ROG or his selection at the end of the post (for example).

Murray is another one. I wasnt a great fan of his but he has proved that wrong and has been a great find in the tournament. Nearly every newspaper pundit says the same but "No...redden played better"...Redden is limited and if TOL had been on form it would have been between TOL and Murray.

Everyone is writing of DOC for example and yes his time is limited if you look at the next world cup but he is still in the top two locks in Ireland so what do we do just dump him...

some people are so precious on here.

the title of the thread is post mortem. the contributions of Rog and Kidney will come under scrutiny like every one else's contribution, rightly or wrongly.

This rankles with the particular 3 posters who will back both to the hilt due to their great achievements at Munster. Noble of course but this is a forum about the green jersey.

Most folks on here agreed that Rog deserved to start but conceded he did not have a great game. He was picked to do a particular job but wales second guessed his kicking game and as a result forced him out of his comfort zone. He was certainly not the sole reason we are out of the world cup. Nobody in their right mind would suggest that. With hindsight sexton may have offered more for the particular game but we will never know. He was not picked because his kicking stats were crap,fair call. time to move on

roll on the semi finals, Heineken cup, leinster v munster : ) and the six nations.

God willing O Mahoney keeps it up. Heaslip will struggle to get him game for Leinster if his current form keeps up never mind Ireland

Who do you think will start at 8 for Leinster if Heaslip's form doesn't improve?

Most folks (who were not Munster supporters) agreed. However Dublin the point is it moved from an Ireland Postmortem to a ROG postmortem to then determining that his selection was to blame...

I re watched the game...he didnt play badly (verified by independent witness Glas) and made a couple of errors but nothing major. The comment that Sexton was not picked because of his kicking stats is self serving bull, Sexton cannot kick either at the posts or out of hand (witness lead up to third try and last ten minutes of ITalian game). Neither can he get a back line moving (in fact its his limitation in this area which will come back to haunt him ) - please point out the lovely moves we made after he came on?

We lost because Wales were better on the day. A lot of players didnt turn up or played poorly including a lot of the feted Leinster boys...who the f is being precious now?

The reason I think RoG is picked out is because his is one of the few positions where there is a player capable of stepping in and doing an equal or better job.
The only other positions we have this kind of competition is the wing but that isn't nearly as pivotal a position.

Chill bro.. since he has already mentioned Heaslip's poor form I think he obviously realises a lot of the leinster players are not playing to the standard they should.