Irish Post mortem

First topic message reminder :

This thread is going to be painful and its time the gloves came off so if you dont like it just ignore it. But Im absolutely sick to the back teeth about what I heard tonight all of which blamed the defeat on ROG and Murray. Heres my take on it



1. Lets get one thing straight -Wales have a better team 1 to 15. I only found this out today but its clear. Their strenght and physicality was superior. They owned the break down which is where they won game. Our half backs were under severe pressure and were forced to change there plans at the last second every time. Warburten murdered us here.

2. Roberts absolutely killed us. And it wasnt in the 10 channel. BOD and Darcy are now the most ineffective centres in top tier Interantional rugby. For the second try Darcy shouted at players that he had the blindside covered - by f**k did he.

3. Front row - Irelands front row has been a revelation in the last 6 months and I am loathed to even think about criticising any player here. Cian Healy and Mike Ross have brought Ireland to this top table and simply have been brilliant. Didnt go well today.

4. Back row - Irelands best weapon in the games where we have turned up. One player has been absent - Heaslip. P. O'Mahony now has to be looked at as a replacement. You cant live on reputation. Would SOB have done so well against Australia if they had a natural 7 Pocock playing??? Not a criticism of SOB as he is not a natural 7. I believe you can live without a natural 7 as long as you commit men to the breakdown.

5. ROG and Murray - ROG had a terrible game - two over cooked kicks in the first half lost us good field position. Some sympathy for Murray as the break down was a mess because we didnt commit numbers and failed to secure our own ball. Pack was going backwards at the rate of knots all day. Did Sexton and Reddan make any difference - imo no- reddans first contribution was 2 poor box kicks into mid field and sexton first kick was an aimless kick into mid field which led to the third try.



Why we lost - the game was lost in the pack. Wales totally dominated here slowing down our ball at best and turning it over at best. Everything Preistland touched turned to gold. Roberts was a human wrecking ball.



Reirements


2. BOD great season in 09 for GS but is just falling off tackles now and not making breaks. Possibly move to 12 but I think should now retire

3. ROG - will retire

4.DOC - times up -great servant

5.Darcy - time to step aside - one of Irelands best ever 12s if not the best

What about the figures Rodders supplied which show that since 2009 we haven't beaten a team of note with RoG starting at OH.

What about the fact that the Sexton gets the Leinster backline moving,of course Sin thinks it's all down to Nacewa.This is just opinion not fact yet he never admits to that,or how about the fact that once Alan Gaffney left Leinster our backline suddenly became threatening.Lets see what happens if Ireland get a decent backs coach in.

Since 2009 we havent beaten a team of note full stop except for Aus a couple of weeks ago..so I dont think that is the right way to go with that arguement.

Sexton does do well for Leinster I dont dispute that I do think he is a little limited in certain areas and am not 100% sure he can improve on these....playing consistently for Ireland would be a start.

Okay then if a team of note isn't good enough how about the fact that since 2009 with RoG starting we haven't beaten a team ranked in the top 8 in the world.

A lot of chat about Spence and Cave, but to be honest, i think GILROY is just as much of a prospect, maybe more, and if it means our best team, we might need to consider Bowe our Earls (or trimble) at 13, and gilroy might be the next international break through before Spence is.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Okay then if a team of note isn't good enough how about the fact that since with RoG starting we haven't beaten a team ranked in the top 8 in the world.

Since Sexton came on the scene, O'Gara has started 6 games to the end of last season (the only top 8 countries in that six were New Zealand & France (away). He also started the Welsh game in last 6Ns, and even though Ireland were playing crap, Ireland were still winning when Sexton took over.

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:I won't park it as long as Sin keeps up his spiel.He wins these arguments because people get tired of pointing out why he's wrong and then he completely changes tack without addressing the point.

For example the post where he says Ireland usually score a couple of tries when RoG plays.No stats to back it up and even if he does have stats he won't take the level of opposition or the overall performance of the team in the game as a factor.Like the difference with Italy in the WC and the 6N.Does he really think RoG starting at OH was the reason we won so convincingly or does the fact the entire team were playing at a different level from the spring not have anything to do with it.

OK, some stats for you in the last few games

Wales: Sexton OH = 0. O'Gara: 1.
Italy: Sexton OH=1. O'Gara: 2
Russia: Sexton OH=2. O'Gara: 7. (by the way 6 of O'Gara's tries were scored by backs. Both the Sexton's tries were scored by forwards).
Australia: Sexton = 0. O'Gara = 0.
USA: Sexton = 1. O'Gara = 2.

World cup totals: Sexton 4. O'Gara 12.

Just like I said you wouldn't take the level of the teams performance into account.RoG got most of the gametime against Russia and Italy when we performed well against weak opposition,Sexton only got big gametime against the U.S. when the entire team played terribly but I suppose you think thats Sextons fault.

When it comes to the big games we don't win with RoG starting,we don't always win when Sexton starts but at least we have a chance.

roddersm wrote:
Two points on that Rory. Ulster are missing a lot of players so it's unfair to make the comparison between this season and last. The second point is that how do you define effective? At 12 he is not going to score as many tries or find himself in as much space. However what he is doing is getting over the gainline with the ball and also drawing defenders to create space for Cave and Gilroy. That to me is every bit as important and effective as making eye catching runs and scoring tries.

Gilroy hasn't been the scoring machine so far this season that he was last season, and I think that is down to a lack of creativity in Ulster's backline (partly caused by the centre partnership imo). By effective I mean this: most Ulster supporters dread the idea of Trimble moving to 12, even though he is a great tackler, is physical and has better hands than he ever had before. That is because this is a waste of what Trimble is best at, and his skills can be best utilised further out on the wing. I think to a lesser extent the same can be said for Spence, who I think is best with a creative player inside him who can create gaps for him to exploit.

With regards to Gilroy, I agree he is just as much of a prospect as Spence however Ireland have a problem in the centres, which is why the possible candidates are being mentioned a lot right now. Ireland have one of the best back 3s in the world, so it isn't a problem. I do think Gilroy will come in soon though, hopefully sooner rather than later.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:I won't park it as long as Sin keeps up his spiel.He wins these arguments because people get tired of pointing out why he's wrong and then he completely changes tack without addressing the point.

For example the post where he says Ireland usually score a couple of tries when RoG plays.No stats to back it up and even if he does have stats he won't take the level of opposition or the overall performance of the team in the game as a factor.Like the difference with Italy in the WC and the 6N.Does he really think RoG starting at OH was the reason we won so convincingly or does the fact the entire team were playing at a different level from the spring not have anything to do with it.

OK, some stats for you in the last few games

Wales: Sexton OH = 0. O'Gara: 1.
Italy: Sexton OH=1. O'Gara: 2
Russia: Sexton OH=2. O'Gara: 7. (by the way 6 of O'Gara's tries were scored by backs. Both the Sexton's tries were scored by forwards).
Australia: Sexton = 0. O'Gara = 0.
USA: Sexton = 1. O'Gara = 2.

World cup totals: Sexton 4. O'Gara 12.

Just like I said you wouldn't take the level of the teams performance into account.RoG got most of the gametime against Russia and Italy when we performed well against weak opposition,Sexton only got big gametime against the U.S. when the entire team played terribly but I suppose you think thats Sextons fault.

When it comes to the big games we don't win with RoG starting,we don't always win when Sexton starts but at least we have a chance.

Ha, Ha, Italy were not so weak in the last 6Ns, now were they? And since when were the USA world beaters? Italy got their bonus point try against them and the scoreline between themselves and Russia was 6-13!

How you can come to the conclusion that we have a better chance with Sexton starting is beyond me when you think of the results. Ireland have had their worst run of poor games in international rugby since 2000 when coincidentally Sexton has been the starting outhalf and while its not entirely his fault we have been so poor, if you give him the praise for when Ireland play well, he must also take the flac for when Ireland play poorly.

Not pursing the "we haven't beaten a Top 8 Country" with O'Gara at OH I note now that you know how few O'Gara has started!

roddersm wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:There is a reason Spence hasn't been as effective this season as last season. His skills are wasted at 12, and moving him from his best position to accommodate Cave I hope will not ruin his development for the future.

Two points on that Rory. Ulster are missing a lot of players so it's unfair to make the comparison between this season and last. The second point is that how do you define effective? At 12 he is not going to score as many tries or find himself in as much space. However what he is doing is getting over the gainline with the ball and also drawing defenders to create space for Cave and Gilroy. That to me is every bit as important and effective as making eye catching runs and scoring tries.

I'm surprised Whitten hasn't got more of a mention. He's a big lad and has been playing very well for Ulster, albeit on the wing. He could yet have a big future but maybe needs to move else where for more gametime.

Couldnt disagree with you more Rodders (we cant catch a break lately ) I havent seen Gilroy get any space to attack this season. his 1 from 6 try scoring stats would seem to back that up. Spence may still get over the gainline (just) but he isnt producing a target for our forwards at 12. Gilroy has still looked dangerous but his threat is curtailed as he is pirouetting behind the gainline through tacklers into more tacklers because he isnt getting the space. Treviso had him locked down at 12 and he offered very little offensively only significantly breaking the gainline once as i recall. i agree with you there is an issue in that our pack arent up to it at present and im not criticising Spence. He is overused imo. He would be so much more effective further out running at the shoulders of smaller players. the thing we arent saying is as well that he will be a marked man also given his debut season.

Whitten has been decent on the wing, tackling and being solid but he isnt a winger and shouldnt be playing there over the likes of Gaston. I agree with you he may have to move on to find more gametime.

Standulstermen wrote:
Couldnt disagree with you more Rodders (we cant catch a break lately )

Stand disagreements make the world go round.

One thing we both agree on is that we both rate Spence, Marshall, Gilroy and Cave, even if it's to varying degrees and for slightly different reasons at times.

Sin é wrote:

Ha, Ha, Italy were not so weak in the last 6Ns, now were they? And since when were the USA world beaters? Italy got their bonus point try against them and the scoreline between themselves and Russia was 6-13!

How you can come to the conclusion that we have a better chance with Sexton starting is beyond me when you think of the results. Ireland have had their worst run of poor games in international rugby since 2000 when coincidentally Sexton has been the starting outhalf and while its not entirely his fault we have been so poor, if you give him the praise for when Ireland play well, he must also take the flac for when Ireland play poorly.

Not pursing the "we haven't beaten a Top 8 Country" with O'Gara at OH I note now that you know how few O'Gara has started!

Yes Italy were just as weak in the last 6 Nations but we played terribly.Funny how you never mention that after Sexton went off we conceded a try and were nearly given the most embarassing defeat since professional rugby came in.I'm not the one equating the OH with the whole team.You are the one saying every try Ireland score with RoG on the pitch is somehow an affirmation that he's better.You won't take any of the other factors into account yet you expect me to take into account how few starts RoG has had.

Nice to see you just won't pursue an argument you can't win.Says it all really.

asoreleftshoulder - I've no complaints about Sexton's defence. Its his getting Ireland playing attacking rugby that is the issue. Everyone, but Sexton gets the blame for Ireland not scoring more tries when he is OH (Gaffney, O'Leary, Murray) - yet when ROG is OH, we score more tries (as well as he usually being able to kick his points).

The Italian try wouldn't have been such an issue if Ireland had put a few more points on the board when Sexton was OH.

Is the ROG/Sexton debate really still going on? Its clear that everyone has a preference and this debate isn't going to change anyone's minds.. don't need stats to prove that one.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Is the ROG/Sexton debate really still going on? Its clear that everyone has a preference and this debate isn't going to change anyone's minds.. don't need stats to prove that one.

+1

Gilroy to wing, Bowe to centre.

huge tussle coming up in the next few years for centre spots between, Marshall, Spence, mcF, bod, Bowe (hopefully).

Also huge tussle for 15 between Jones and Kearney for the next 4 years or more

When we talk of Spence, Cave, Bowe to 13, Earls etc etc, do we all think that BOD is going to move to 12 or be dropped? I'm not sure I see it happening. It has to happen, but I don't think it will.

Jones I think will overtake Kearney, I see Jones being world class one day.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Is the ROG/Sexton debate really still going on? Its clear that everyone has a preference and this debate isn't going to change anyone's minds.. don't need stats to prove that one.

Its not actually a Sexton v O'Gara debate as O'Gara is about to retire - its more a Sexton isn't really up to it debate now.

Sin é wrote:asoreleftshoulder - I've no complaints about Sexton's defence. Its his getting Ireland playing attacking rugby that is the issue. Everyone, but Sexton gets the blame for Ireland not scoring more tries when he is OH (Gaffney, O'Leary, Murray) - yet when ROG is OH, we score more tries (as well as he usually being able to kick his points).

The Italian try wouldn't have been such an issue if Ireland had put a few more points on the board when Sexton was OH.

When RoG starts it's usually against the weaker teams,would that have anything to do with it.As has been pointed out already when RoG starts against the better teams we lose.

You pointed out that when Sexton came on against Wales in the 6 nations they scored a try straight away,the Welsh try wouldn't have been such an issue if Ireland had put a few more points on the board when RoG was OH.

Whatever it is, I think everyone has presented their opinions on Sexton or ROG and nobody is going to change them until their next match. It's turning into pointless bickering.

Well I'm willing to settle with this statement.With RoG Ireland score more tries,with Sexton Ireland win more games.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Well I'm willing to settle with this statement.With RoG Ireland score more tries,with Sexton Ireland win more games.

I can live with that.

Okay but whenever Sin comes back with stats and argues against that, please just leave it :P

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:asoreleftshoulder - I've no complaints about Sexton's defence. Its his getting Ireland playing attacking rugby that is the issue. Everyone, but Sexton gets the blame for Ireland not scoring more tries when he is OH (Gaffney, O'Leary, Murray) - yet when ROG is OH, we score more tries (as well as he usually being able to kick his points).

The Italian try wouldn't have been such an issue if Ireland had put a few more points on the board when Sexton was OH.

When RoG starts it's usually against the weaker teams,would that have anything to do with it.As has been pointed out already when RoG starts against the better teams we lose.

You pointed out that when Sexton came on against Wales in the 6 nations they scored a try straight away,the Welsh try wouldn't have been such an issue if Ireland had put a few more points on the board when RoG was OH.

Sexton started 12 games (including the Maori who we lost to as well) in that period. O'Gara started 6 games (and I think two of those were because Sexton was injured).

I think the Welsh posters would be rather upset at rating their team as being of a similar standard to Italy

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Well I'm willing to settle with this statement.With RoG Ireland score more tries,with Sexton Ireland win more games.

We've lost more than we've won since Sexton has started playing international rugby.

I had to laugh though. Rog came out and said that he "wont turn his back on his country"...

Turn away Rog. Thanks for the memories but I can safely say he is surplus to requirements.

Time to go to college, get a business degree and start selling insurance or something.

His time is up. Move on.

Keatley vs iHump please.

Keatley vs iHump please.

I really hope you are joking Boyne....Keatley versus Madigan maybe or even Jackson...jebus wept.

I am most interested in Keatley nailing down the 10 shirt for Munster and hopefully for Ireland in the future. I've been very impressed with him this season.

Sin é wrote:



I think the Welsh posters would be rather upset at rating their team as being of a similar standard to Italy

Thats why RoG coming on and Italy scoring a try is so much worse than Sexton coming on and Wales getting away 5 lineout infringements.

I had to laugh though. Rog came out and said that he "wont turn his back on his country"...

Turn away Rog. Thanks for the memories but I can safely say he is surplus to requirements.

Time to go to college, get a business degree and start selling insurance or something.

His time is up. Move on.

Keatley vs iHump please.

haha. this was always going to mutate into this at some stage i suppose.

For the love of all our sanity i hope Rog does retire from international rugby now and we all get behind Sexton,Keatley,Humphreys,Madigan et al. this circus cannot go on for my own personal sanity following Ireland

It was nice to have both fit and available for the last few years even if we never quite reaped the rewards in terms of results. Rog has been a great player and servant for Ireland over his career if a step below true world class. He will continue to do the business for another few seasons at Munster im sure.

Sexton has not yet delivered consistency in the green jersey but i am sure he will in the coming years. I have zero issues with a bit of verbals at munster v leinster however he has taken some OTT stick at a number of Irish games i have been at from a small number of clowns. That must stop.

any ideas who will be our next backs coach??? Obviously Schmidts input would be nice but it may not work out. The best back play i have seen from an Irish province was Leinster actually under David Knox. Know he was an absolute pr1ck of a fella but was an innovative backs coach. Pity we had no pack

When will the Post Mortem be over?

Just wondering when we can start the wake?

haha, wake commences after we finish 4th in the 6 nations and lose comfortably to England in Twickenham. Beating Italy 13-7 and Scotland 12-9. With the Rog,Darcy,Drico combo starting every game

Nah...this is the wake...this is the drunken infighting within the family bit while all the neighbours look on horrified.

dublin_dave wrote:haha. this was always going to mutate into this at some stage i suppose.

In fairness I know that my arguments have been silly and not really making much sense..I've been copying Sins style of debating hoping he would see just how bad his points are.He takes stats and passages of play out of context and applies them to a players entire career.It doesn't matter who the opposition were,it doesn't matter how the other 14 players play.RoG is responsible for every try Ireland scored while he was on the pitch at the WC.

Sexton doesn't get the Leinster backline moving Nacewa does that,of course he has no stats to back this up but that doesn't matter when it's his opinion.Ireland haven't won a game against anyone better than Italy with RoG starting OH but thats because he doesn't start enough games.

dublin_dave wrote:haha, wake commences after we finish 4th in the 6 nations and lose comfortably to England in Twickenham. Beating Italy 13-7 and Scotland 12-9. With the Rog,Darcy,Drico combo starting every game

Thats rubbish dave....no way we'll beat scotland .....

The wake is when Ireland recycle their players.. and eventually field a backline such as this one over the next number of years:

9) Murray
10) Keatley
11) Earls
12) Marshall
13) Spence
14) Gilroy
15) Jones

I would love to see a backline like that for the 2015 world cup.

Not sure Schmidt would have the band width to become the national backs coach. Gaffney was able to double job but he wasn’t a head coach for either. David Knox had O’Driscoll, Darcy, Hickie, Horgan, Dempsey and Contepomi at their peak, I’m sure that made his job a lot easier.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
9) Murray
10) Keatley
11) Earls
12) Marshall
13) Spence
14) Gilroy
15) Jones

I would love to see a backline like that for the 2015 world cup.

It will be your wake when Boyne and Dublin_Dave see that one!

roddersm wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
9) Murray
10) Keatley
11) Earls
12) Marshall
13) Spence
14) Gilroy
15) Jones

I would love to see a backline like that for the 2015 world cup.

It will be your wake when Boyne and Dublin_Dave see that one!

I’m sure they’ll be delighted to see two Leinster lads in key positions.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The wake is when Ireland recycle their players.. and eventually field a backline such as this one over the next number of years:

9) Murray
10) Keatley
11) Earls
12) Marshall
13) Spence
14) Gilroy
15) Jones

I would love to see a backline like that for the 2015 world cup.

I have heard good things about Gilroy and he's looked good whenever I've seen him play but is he potentially good enough to displace Tommy Bowe.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The wake is when Ireland recycle their players.. and eventually field a backline such as this one over the next number of years:

9) Murray
10) Keatley
11) Earls
12) Marshall
13) Spence
14) Gilroy
15) Jones

I would love to see a backline like that for the 2015 world cup.

I got got sick in my mouth a little...

I have to say i love how there are 2 World Cup semi finals being played this weekend but see are still more interested in how Ireland will shape up in future. Go the Paddies!!!

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The wake is when Ireland recycle their players.. and eventually field a backline such as this one over the next number of years:

9) Murray
10) Keatley
11) Earls
12) Marshall
13) Spence
14) Gilroy
15) Jones

I would love to see a backline like that for the 2015 world cup.

I have heard good things about Gilroy and he's looked good whenever I've seen him play but is he potentially good enough to displace Tommy Bowe.

In a year or two i would hope so

Whoops, no Leinster players there :P well honestly I do think those guys could be potentially the best in each position in a few years..

For now though Kearney, Sexton and hopefully McFadden will have the starting shirts for 15, 10 and 12.

Standulstermen wrote:

In a year or two i would hope so

Thats good to hear,there's a lot of backline talent coming through at Ulster,it'll be good for Ireland to have genuine quality playerfrom all 3 provinces in the next few years.Ulster have been marginalised over the last decade but I can see Best captaining Ireland at some stage and Ferris will be a mainstay of the team for a few more years if he can stay injury free.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Whoops, no Leinster players there :P well honestly I do think those guys could be potentially the best in each position in a few years..

For now though Kearney, Sexton and hopefully McFadden will have the starting shirts for 15, 10 and 12.

As a Leinster fan I honestly don't see why McFadden is rated so highly as a centre.His best performances against top opposition have been on the wing and I really think at his age if he was ever going to be a good international player he'd have made it by now.

To be honest I am going by most Leinster fans with McFadden. I haven't really seen much from him at wing or centre, though for now anything is better than D'Arcy as far as I am concerned. Moving BOD to 12 is another option for the time being.

And yes I think Gilroy is very talented and will continue to improve, hopefully becoming a better player than Bowe ever was (that is saying a lot).

What about your man Conroy? He was the standout player at the U-20's RWC for us. Could we see him and Gilroy in the back 3 together?

There's alot of talented backs there. We might have to convert McFadden and Cave into tight head props.

Do you mean Conway rodders?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Do you mean Conway rodders?

Yes!