Irish Post mortem

First topic message reminder :

This thread is going to be painful and its time the gloves came off so if you dont like it just ignore it. But Im absolutely sick to the back teeth about what I heard tonight all of which blamed the defeat on ROG and Murray. Heres my take on it



1. Lets get one thing straight -Wales have a better team 1 to 15. I only found this out today but its clear. Their strenght and physicality was superior. They owned the break down which is where they won game. Our half backs were under severe pressure and were forced to change there plans at the last second every time. Warburten murdered us here.

2. Roberts absolutely killed us. And it wasnt in the 10 channel. BOD and Darcy are now the most ineffective centres in top tier Interantional rugby. For the second try Darcy shouted at players that he had the blindside covered - by f**k did he.

3. Front row - Irelands front row has been a revelation in the last 6 months and I am loathed to even think about criticising any player here. Cian Healy and Mike Ross have brought Ireland to this top table and simply have been brilliant. Didnt go well today.

4. Back row - Irelands best weapon in the games where we have turned up. One player has been absent - Heaslip. P. O'Mahony now has to be looked at as a replacement. You cant live on reputation. Would SOB have done so well against Australia if they had a natural 7 Pocock playing??? Not a criticism of SOB as he is not a natural 7. I believe you can live without a natural 7 as long as you commit men to the breakdown.

5. ROG and Murray - ROG had a terrible game - two over cooked kicks in the first half lost us good field position. Some sympathy for Murray as the break down was a mess because we didnt commit numbers and failed to secure our own ball. Pack was going backwards at the rate of knots all day. Did Sexton and Reddan make any difference - imo no- reddans first contribution was 2 poor box kicks into mid field and sexton first kick was an aimless kick into mid field which led to the third try.



Why we lost - the game was lost in the pack. Wales totally dominated here slowing down our ball at best and turning it over at best. Everything Preistland touched turned to gold. Roberts was a human wrecking ball.



Reirements


2. BOD great season in 09 for GS but is just falling off tackles now and not making breaks. Possibly move to 12 but I think should now retire

3. ROG - will retire

4.DOC - times up -great servant

5.Darcy - time to step aside - one of Irelands best ever 12s if not the best

Standulstermen wrote:
Rodders
I agree we dont have the courage of our convictions in picking younger guys but this goes right the way down to provincial level. How can kidney pick McFadden at 12 over D'arcy when Schmidt doesnt for instance?
Similarly how can we look at Jackson/Marshall when they will be nowhere near the squad until february.
Murray and Jones at least were given gametime at Munster.
Can we pick Nagle when he is behind MOD/Ryan?

Yeah stand I agree but the young guys have to earn it too, its not about handing them starts.

At Ulster Marshall and Humphreys are not performing theres a fair argument that Porter and Jackson should be starting.

Tuohy and Ryan are certainly pushing O'Callaghan and Spence and Cave are looking more and more like international class. Keatley has started his Munster career well.

However beyond that some guys haven't put their hand up. McFadden was a major disappointment, he simply isn't playing better than D'arcy or O'Driscoll.

I disagree on the Spence issue Rodders. I think he has had 3 poor games in a row now and his sin binning last week was possibly the stupidest yellow i have seen for a while.

He has unreal potential but we are being too reliant on him imo. There is enormous pressure on him because he has been stellar and he haas been ever present since coming in. Like i said before i think it depends on the style of player you prefer, but for me Marshall is wasted sitting in the stands.

On the McFadden issue; i think you are maybe using double standards here. Sexton wasnt playing as well as ROG coming into the RWC but you consistently argued for him and an awful lot of criticism was deflected due to his half back partner or the fact he was never given an extended run. Whilst i agree McFadden maybe hasnt stepped up he is primarily used with EOM at Leinster and although he has had a couple of starts with BOD, he was never given a run of games at 12 either.

Cave i will agree with i think he has shown an intelligence and desire that should warrant a chance for him. His defence is top notch as is his attitude (some of his last ditch tackling on friday was immense).

Look its important to keep things in perspective and not get too negative.

3 weeks ago we beat Australia, the Tri Nations champions and last week we put a very strong Italy side to the sword.

We are still one of the top sides around and unfortunately we came across a very good Welsh side in a rich vein of form.

Individually all the players performed over the tournament and did themselves proud.

Stand it's not double standards. I simply don't believe O'Gara was playing better than Sexton and I've stated above why I feel Sexton is so fundimental to the side.

Fair enough rodders. Seems to me there were excuses made for Sexton though (rightly or wrongly) that havent been afforded to McFadden in that regard.

I agree with your assessment though that Sexton has to have the shirt and be perservered with from here on in. For me it will be interesting to see how Munster use ROG and Keatley. Ulster need to start using jackson so that in a year or two when ROG does retire we are not hamstrung by one injury to Sexton though

roddersm wrote:Stand it's not double standards. I simply don't believe O'Gara was playing better than Sexton and I've stated above why I feel Sexton is so fundimental to the side.

Rodders you are boardering on an obsession here with ROG. You really dont understand the game if you think it was lost at out half yesterday. Sexton didnt make one bit of difference when he came on - in fact his aimless kick into mid field resulted in the third try.



And as for the comment Sextons form was good that just diminishes all of your arguments. A fly half who kicked 6 from 15???

BlueMuff wrote:

roddersm wrote:Stand it's not double standards. I simply don't believe O'Gara was playing better than Sexton and I've stated above why I feel Sexton is so fundimental to the side.

Rodders you are boardering on an obsession here with ROG. You really dont understand the game if you think it was lost at out half yesterday . Sexton didnt make one bit of difference when he came on - in fact his aimless kick into mid field resulted in the third try.



And as for the comment Sextons form was good that just diminishes all of your arguments. A fly half who kicked 6 from 15???

I've more or less said my peace on the previous page... but perhaps if we highlight where people keep attacking individual posters rather than the topic at hand then those people will reign themselves in of their own accord.

As to the sentiment involved in such statements, here's some analysis from some of the first rugby articles I could find from rugby pundits working for a variety of newspapers who obviously don't have a clue about rugby either:

"Ireland had the wind in the first half, but O’Gara kicked so badly that Wales kept getting out. Ireland’s backline started to get pushed sideways, often a problem with O’Gara’s crablike instincts. And the forwards could not keep enough of a sustained drive." [Telegraph]

"The selection of Ronan O'Gara did not work. His kicking game was awry and he lacked the understanding with his half-back partner, Conor Murray, that Rhys Priestland had with Mike Phillips. Ireland went into the tournament without a clear first choice at scrum-half, having left Tomas O'Leary at home, and they could have used the experience of Peter Stringer." [Guardian]

"10. Ronan O'Gara - A bad day for O'Gara, he overcooked several crucial kicks in the first half when Ireland needed to build pressure and never got the key carriers moving. Player Rating: 3." [RTE]


Yep it's all a big conspiracy.

I actually think ROG is being harshly done by to an extent. To my mind i think the big issue as Murray at 9. I dont think we ever really had quick service to ROG. He has a big future but in hindsight, Reddan should definately have played

Standulstermen wrote:I actually think ROG is being harshly done by to an extent. To my mind i think the big issue as Murray at 9. I dont think we ever really had quick service to ROG. He has a big future but in hindsight, Reddan should definately have played

Two points Stand:

1) I can't agree that ROG played at all well ...but I think that ROG gave the game all he possibly could too... and I really do like ROG and support him in all he does. His poor play came from the overall strategic direction of the game. As I said before, I was actually more upset to see him leave for the last crucial 30 mins than I was convinced that Sexton's introduction was going to change everything. (I think that this was the part of the game when ROG really could have been the game-changer!)

2) But I separate that from the issue of who should have been chosen to play against Wales from the start. I think that ROG's selection dictated how we faced into the game and it simply didn't come off.

From the provincial matches I have been watching recently, there are quite a few young players who have really impressed me (apologies as I haven't managed to see any of Connacht and little of Leinster).

Peter O'Mahoney - He has been captaining Munster this season at the age of 22 and won MOM last night for what I thought was a stellar performance. He consistently broke the gain-line, won turnovers, made big hits and generally was everywhere. Heaslip had better up his game because to me this guy looks ready.

Ian Keatley - Didn't have as good a game as usual last night, where his kicking wasn't as good as it has been (but he still got most of his kicks). When ROG returns to Munster I think he may struggle to get his shirt back, and having ROG as a mentor I think will do wonders for Keatley's development. Keatley I think will be Sexton's backup for the 6 nations, but if his form continues/improves I think he could take over.

Nevin Spence - He is a player I have been watching carefully after last season. I believe atm he is playing out of position at 12, and doing a good job but not being able to play to his full potential. When Wallace returns at 12 I think there will be a battle between him and Cave at 13, but I think Spence will take over eventually. He is a fantastic defender, has great pace, skill and is constantly improving. He is a very physical player and strong direct runner, and if he works on his offloading game we could have a fantastic replacement to BOD, and our answer to a strong direct centre similar to the likes of Roberts.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:From the provincial matches I have been watching recently, there are quite a few young players who have really impressed me (apologies as I haven't managed to see any of Connacht and little of Leinster).

Peter O'Mahoney - He has been captaining Munster this season at the age of 22 and won MOM last night for what I thought was a stellar performance. He consistently broke the gain-line, won turnovers, made big hits and generally was everywhere. Heaslip had better up his game because to me this guy looks ready.

Ian Keatley - Didn't have as good a game as usual last night, where his kicking wasn't as good as it has been (but he still got most of his kicks). When ROG returns to Munster I think he may struggle to get his shirt back, and having ROG as a mentor I think will do wonders for Keatley's development. Keatley I think will be Sexton's backup for the 6 nations, but if his form continues/improves I think he could take over.

Nevin Spence - He is a player I have been watching carefully after last season. I believe atm he is playing out of position at 12, and doing a good job but not being able to play to his full potential. When Wallace returns at 12 I think there will be a battle between him and Cave at 13, but I think Spence will take over eventually. He is a fantastic defender, has great pace, skill and is constantly improving. He is a very physical player and strong direct runner, and if he works on his offloading game we could have a fantastic replacement to BOD, and our answer to a strong direct centre similar to the likes of Roberts.

Cheering me up little by little Mr Gallagher! Keep it up.

Haha no problem! But even looking at that there is potential in our "problem areas". When ROG leaves we have a very suitable backup/challange to Sexton's 10 shirt. We have a very impressive backrower in POM, and we have our strike runner in the midfield (although we need to actually select these guys).

All we need now really is our openside flanker.. what potential candidates do we have?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Haha no problem! But even looking at that there is potential in our "problem areas". When ROG leaves we have a very suitable backup/challange to Sexton's 10 shirt. We have a very impressive backrower in POM, and we have our strike runner in the midfield (although we need to actually select these guys).

All we need now really is our openside flanker.. what potential candidates do we have?

Well I mean that's never gonna be an easy position to fill with our limited number of pro teams to develop a specialist...

Been some talk about Faloon? What of Niall Ronan?? I haven't really seen much of either of them to comment...

Who else? What age is Jennings anyway - early 30s?

Faloon isn't even being selected for Ulster atm (though he really should be, and probably will be as the backrow has been poor without him). He has potential but I'm not sure he will ever be international standard.

Jennings has been tried and tested, hasn't really shown himself to be anywhere near international standard. He is also in his early 30s. We really need someone in the mould of Warburton or McCaw, but I don't think we have that in any of our more experienced players and therefore should target the academies.

An outside bet would be the likes of Jordi Murphy in the Leinster academy. He played 8 during the U20 world cup and I thought he looked pretty decent. Warburton played 8 for Wales a couple of years ago at the U20 world cup, and look where he is now. If we focus on working with these young backrowers in the academies, we could make do with not having a proper 7 in the meantime. Our backrow is still strong, and don't forget Wallace is still to return.

Nos

Im not saying ROG played well at all. He didnt and i think that we were out on our feet by the time Sexton came on. I do think a lot of our issues started at 9 though.

I think (with 20/20 hindsight) the real issue is the absence of a settled half back pairing coming into the world cup. Im not going all out against Kidney here but in reality it took us too long to recognise O'Leary wasnt up to it and we havent a settled pairing thereafter.

As regards the youngsters i havent seen a lot of POM but he has seriously bulked up and im pleased he is playing well. Faloon cant get a look at the Ulster backrow (inexplicably imo) but he hasnt delivered on his promise either.

Spence has mixed the good and bad and as i have said Ulster are too reliant on him in the same way Ireland are on the backrow. Its telling that Gilroy has scored 1 try in 6 games this season when he couldnt stop scoring last year. We havent been giving him the opportunities and thats because we arent creative enough in the midfield.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Faloon isn't even being selected for Ulster atm (though he really should be, and probably will be as the backrow has been poor without him). He has potential but I'm not sure he will ever be international standard.

Jennings has been tried and tested, hasn't really shown himself to be anywhere near international standard. He is also in his early 30s. We really need someone in the mould of Warburton or McCaw, but I don't think we have that in any of our more experienced players and therefore should target the academies.

An outside bet would be the likes of Jordi Murphy in the Leinster academy. He played 8 during the U20 world cup and I thought he looked pretty decent. Warburton played 8 for Wales a couple of years ago at the U20 world cup, and look where he is now. If we focus on working with these young backrowers in the academies, we could make do with not having a proper 7 in the meantime. Our backrow is still strong, and don't forget Wallace is still to return.

I agree with the last line in particular... I think our back row will have a points to prove and a few scores to settle in the coming year or two.

As to the rest, your knowledge of the youth coming through puts me to shame... (the U-20s were all a blur of enthusiasm for me... ) So I'll take your much more informed word on it... and keep an eye out for Jordi Murphy.

Gilroy is another I left out - he really looks ready to make the step up I think, and I also agree that our centre partnership isn't working with Spence/Cave. As I have said I believe this is because of Spence playing out of position to accommodate Cave. But Gilroy is one who needs to be tried out for Ireland in the near future, he is so deceptively strong and has a great eye for the line.

And Nos, the only reason I know much about the U20s this year was because a player on the rugby team at my school was playing, was watching out for him in the Ireland matches :P

Yes but Wallace is 35 will he be the same after his injury?

Lets hope so he was in such good form too.

Gilroy has bulked up a lot. He looks relatively impressive in contact now and need worked with

I think its clear that we have an abundance of talent in almost every position except 7 and possibly a lack of depth at second row. We dont seem to have as many leaders as previous teams but at the very least we will still have POC until the next World Cup when he will be 35. POM is another one but he might not start, if anything we could be in a better position in 4 years if all goes well.

Hopefully the acadamies will continue to churn out talent to this degree for a long time.

Standulstermen wrote:Nos

Im not saying ROG played well at all. He didnt and i think that we were out on our feet by the time Sexton came on. I do think a lot of our issues started at 9 though.

I think (with 20/20 hindsight) the real issue is the absence of a settled half back pairing coming into the world cup. Im not going all out against Kidney here but in reality it took us too long to recognise O'Leary wasnt up to it and we havent a settled pairing thereafter.

I'm pretty much agreed on every bit of that Stand... I think Kidney has done very well overall for Ireland these last few years. But it doesn't mean I have to agree with everything he's done.

Standulstermen wrote:Gilroy has bulked up a lot. He looks relatively impressive in contact now and need worked with

He looks very strong this season Stand. He had no bother against Mike Poole(?) anyway and he's a physical boy. I'm not sure if he's at the level of Bowe, Trimble and Earls but he's certainly got international potential. Maybe one for the Saxons in the new year?

BlueMuff I've made my points on ROG already and I'm not going over them again. I have nothing against ROG, he's been a great player over the years and still is but he has some glaring limitations in his armoury that were exposed again on against Wales. He wasn't the only one but if you chose not to see the limitations of a midfield comprising of ROG, D'arcy and BOD then so be it but the reality is they were blown away by the Welsh midfield and anyone who's watched us and Wales play over the past few weeks shouldn't be overly surprised by that.

How Les Kiss and Kidney thought Rog and D'arcy were going to hold Roberts and North when SA, Samoa and Fiji couldn't is beyond me. I'd assumed they''d done the analysis and had a plan but from the outset of the match when Roberts smashed D'arcy it was clear they didn't.

Gatland obviously had. He switched Williams and North round so we couldn't use the cross field kick and Halfpenny was positioned for every ROG kick.

Nos na Gaoithe wrote:
I'm pretty much agreed on every bit of that Stand... I think Kidney has done very well overall for Ireland these last few years. But it doesn't mean I have to agree with everything he's done.

Kidneys has won a GS and taken us to a RWC QF. We've beaten SA at home and Australia away and beaten England a few times. On the surface you can't complain too much and have to give credit where it is due but should we have done better? I think so. We've definitely lost games that we shouldn't and struggled for consistancy.

Overall this has been a very positive RWC and I'm happy to see Kidney and the team continue, however if we don't have a good 6N then it's probably time for a change.

I would reward form Rodders. If Gilroys form is deserving of a spot in the full squad from our wing options then lets get him in. Until we stop making excuses like 'ah he hasnt played enough" etc etc i dont think we will properly develop competition. If that means someone more established misses out then so be it.

we have to get a bit more radical imo. Im not criticising our wingers from this RWC at all. Earls was clinical but will get some stick for yesterday, Trimble we all know is in good form and Tommy was doing his best to get his best form back but it didnt quite happen.

I agree on the first paragraph stand. I'm all for rewarding form but for me Gilroy is not yet better than Bowe, Trimble and Earls.

We certainly didn't lose to Wales because of our wingers. Our back 3 was very good throughout the competition I thought.

Standulstermen wrote:
we have to get a bit more radical imo.

I've always been more on this side of the argument... then with the England win and the Australia performance, I really thought there might have been some "method in the madness" as it were.

The fact that we have a unique system where we can only really call on 4 pro teams forces certain limitations on what we can realistically do. The advantage is that we can build up player combination experience and team morale and that has often gives us the edge over the last decade. In a way it is what has distinguished us from Wales' more erratic form year on year (game on game).

But I still strongly agree. Our conservatism is often our weakness too (as at the weekend IMO). There must be some way to get more experimentation into our play and to get players through that are showing form or formidable talent.

I agree Rodders. Im not talking about winning games in the next 6N though. Im talking about building for 2015 and by then i hope to God Gilroy is better than the three you have mentioned.

He may or may not be but unless we reward form our youngsters wont come through. Thats not to say he will definitely be deserving of a spot in February. He may not be. I just dont think their position should be secure because they are the incumbents which is too often the case in Ireland

Standulstermen wrote: I just dont think their position should be secure because they are the incumbents which is too often the case in Ireland

Trust me I don't think that either, in fact nothing p*sses me off more and this attitude has held us back for a long time. I also feel that if a player is going well he should keep the shirt though so it goes both ways.

Spence, Keatley and Cave are also knocking on the door as is Touhy and O'Mahoney. Those 5 should be in the 6N squad in my oppinion if they continue with their current form.

I see Gilroy as one for next summer or autumn though but yeah he looks very good this year.

Too many changes now would be psychologically damaging. Stick too and use the 6N to blood a few new players, then a few more in next year's AI's and then a few more in 2013 6N then stick to until 2015.

Yeterday was a bad day at the office where nothing seemed to go right. There is no need for us to over react but there are some things we need to learn from yesterday. The new backline coach has to be better than Gaffney, we need someone with good ideas and an ability to use the resources we have available. Yesterday our only try came after a poor pass unsettled the defence and a good finish.
Another major problem was the amount of players we committed to the breakdown, there was a reason that murray was slow at time to get to the base of rucks and this was because there were a number of time when he had to go into the ruck to protect the ball. This meant he was out of the game for the next ruck, our forwards have to start doing better.
Rory Best is an absolute hero, our best player yesterday and an absolute inspiration.


On the second issue there are a lot of young players with lots of potential coming through and hopefully they will fulfill that potential.
But unless the get gametime at provincial level they won't be picked for Ireland. I would hope that when darcy comes back he doesn't overtake luke fitz who has been doing well at 12. Griffin and o'halloran having being going well at connacht and mckeon looks to have potential as does eohgan grace who can hopefully overcome his injury problems.

Everyone knows the Leinster backrow prospects but last night I was really impressed by docv2 at 6 for munster. He is probably too small to play at lock at professional level despite playing there for ireland u20. He had a huge workrate making lots of tackles but he made ground when he took the ball forward as well.

I think POM has as much if not more potential than ruddock, ryan etc, he is excellent in the lineout, loose, breakdown and he is learning to keep his cool and talk to the ref. Ruddock lets himself down with the way he carries and should make more ground because of his size and ryan isn't the smartest. The only problem for POM is that he plays across the backrow so there is an issue of whether he will get enough gametime in anyone position. He will most likely be at 7 during the hec and I'm looking forward to seeing how he goes.

Its great that POM is getting gametime but that wont be the case for the majority of our youngsters though. There isnt need for wholesale changes to the ireland team but there is a need to create competition and unfortunately until the provinces subscribe to that we wont improve imo.

We can constantly say that player X isnt ready because they are too young but while we are saying that other nations are starting these guys and having them up to speed and in international squads years before we do. We are backwards in this regard.

Standulstermen wrote:Its great that POM is getting gametime but that wont be the case for the majority of our youngsters though. There isnt need for wholesale changes to the ireland team but there is a need to create competition and unfortunately until the provinces subscribe to that we wont improve imo.

We can constantly say that player X isnt ready because they are too young but while we are saying that other nations are starting these guys and having them up to speed and in international squads years before we do. We are backwards in this regard.

Hopefully the NIQ being reduced to 4 will help but there is a problem in that the provincial coaches are worried about losing there jobs so they will trust the more experienced player first. McGahan only introduced murray, barnes and others after being knocked out of the hec. This year mclaughlin is doing the same, whitten on the wing instead of using gaston there or else putting spence on the wing and having marshall at 12. Even smchidt reverted to the tried and tested in the hec last year.

I dont think its an NIQ issue really Val. Certainly in Ulster it isnt. THe guys keeping the younger players out are IQ. Leinster is the same i think

I'm glad that most of the Irish are not getting too emotional about the loss and are not ripping their team to pieces.

Ireland are at the strongest they ever have been and if Wales and Ireland played 4 times we'd probably win 2 each. I so think a few changes are needed though for Irelands benefit.

Rog needs to retire, he has been a magnificent servant but while you have him as a safety net then Sexton will never feel first choice and won't gain confidence, sometimes players need to be put in all or nothing situations to enable them to develop the mental strength to cope with International rugby. Sexton is still erratic and prone to error and whilst you may expect this off a 22 year old, you shouldn't be having this from a 26 year old. the best thing Ireland could do is find another young fly half, and say to him and Sexton, which ever one of you is playing the best will be the one who plays for Ireland, that policy kept David Humphreys and Rog competitive for years.

I also think Ireland need to change captain, Bod is another great player but I feel his time is over. Paul O'Connell is the "real" captain of Ireland, he is the leader on the pitch, and will be 32 soon, so I think it's better if Ireland make him captain till the next Lions tour.

Ireland need to bring in young players and play with more energy and flair, not percentage rugby and efficiency.

Standulstermen wrote:I dont think its an NIQ issue really Val. Certainly in Ulster it isnt. THe guys keeping the younger players out are IQ. Leinster is the same i think

The NIQ issue is a real problem, Ireland have problems at 12,3,9 and these positions are being filled by NIQs. Nacewa is in the way of lots of wingers at Leinster. Munster have being using NIQ 12s for years. I understand that young Irish players learn from players like nacewa, howlett and botha so there is a benefit but there has to be a balance. Munster should be made to take whitten, some of leinster's young backrowers should go elsewhere and it makes no sense that munsters are stockpiling second rows.

Alyn you are a gentleman. Wise and kind words sir . I would hope that Keatley and Sexton will be the fly halves going forward with Jackson in the pipeline but ROG is contracted until 2013 so we'll have to see what happens.

Val thanks for mentioning Rory. I thought he was magnificant, especially condisidering it looked like his tournament was over last week. He hurled himself into contact with 110% effort and seemed to be everywhere.

Glad to hear Fitzgerald is going well at 12. I thought he was unlucky not to make the squad and he still has plenty to offer.

POM seems to be an exciting prospect. I really hope Ruddock steps up to the plate though. He has massive potential but he rarely impresses me when I've watched him, which hasn't been that often to be fair.

roddersm wrote:Alyn you are a gentleman. Wise and kind words sir .

I disagree to an extent Val. In the positions you mention we have the young Irish players but they are being hoarded at different provinces. I dont think the NIQ's is the issue.

Taking Ulster as an example as i know more about them-

We have Pienaar ahead of two very raw SH's who will in no way challenge for Irish honours (certainly in Marshalls case) but they can learn from him and if Porter does develop it will in no small part have been aided by Pienaar.
Muller- THe improvement in Dan Tuohy since he arrived has been stark, to the point were he can actually run a lineout. Vital
Wannenburg- I dont see him as a coach in the same way but realistically Ulster have no backrows coming through of the requisite standard. Pollock would be starting and probably Captaining but for retirement.
Danielli- If he gets selected over Gilroy i will be spitting feathers. Realistically a bench option now.
Afoa- we have Cronin who isnt going to make it, Deccie Fitz who wont make it and Macklin showing some signs of promise this year. Learning from a 30 cap All Black is excellent for them in developing their all round game.

The issues as i see it are there are Irish players blocking Irish players. I agree wholeheartedly regarding Whitten moving. I think Munster could have used him. We have Wallace blocking Marshall now at 12. Now Wallace isnt ever going to be Irelands first choice 12 by the looks of things. At what point does the IRFU step in? Im not criticising Paddy by the way but he is their employee not Ulsters after all. Im not sure how this can work

At Leinster we have seen D'arcy continually picked in front of McFadden who is now 25. At what stage do we ask Leinster to think to the future. We now potentially have Fitz in front of McFadden as well for 12 to say nothing of young Brendan Macken. McFadden is now 25 and has no clue whether he is viewed as a 12,13 or 11. To my mind that smacks of bad management on our part and in no way down to the NIQ's.

Im not certain how we reconcile bringing youngsters through with maintaining provincial success but to my mind we are prioritising the latter massively over the former.

We have a paucity of quality 9's i agree and this has always been the case. Ulster have an NIQ 9 of course but he is not holding back anyone and in fairness to Munster they will hopefully retain Murray as first choice. Leinster have Reddan obviously but it will be interesting to see how they integrate young McGrath. I have already spoken about Ulsters options.

TH is a concern but then why have Leinster now got (seemingly) the next two Irish TH's. I understand they may want Feek to get his hands on Hagan as well but surely we need to get Hagan as 1st choice somewhere. Botha will be great for Munster as he will bring on the young lads there and his injury profile means he wont get significant gametime. Afoa will start for Ulster but realistically only Macklin has the potential to be a future Irish starter so again hopefully he can learn from Afoa regarding his loose play. He has already worked with Botha after all

roddersm wrote:Alyn you are a gentleman. Wise and kind words sir . I would hope that Keatley and Sexton will be the fly halves going forward with Jackson in the pipeline but ROG is contracted until 2013 so we'll have to see what happens.

Val thanks for mentioning Rory. I thought he was magnificant, especially condisidering it looked like his tournament was over last week. He hurled himself into contact with 110% effort and seemed to be everywhere.

Glad to hear Fitzgerald is going well at 12. I thought he was unlucky not to make the squad and he still has plenty to offer.

POM seems to be an exciting prospect. I really hope Ruddock steps up to the plate though. He has massive potential but he rarely impresses me when I've watched him, which hasn't been that often to be fair.

Ruddock has a lot to learn, when he was younger he was always the biggest player and would make ground at will but it means his technique for carrying the ball is poor. He is a natural leader though so you'd still hope he'd come good. The only problem is I'm not sure if hes quick enough for any of the backrow positions. He isn't a 7 and is carrying isn't good enough as a 8, plus we've a lot of 6s coming through so I'd wonder if he would be worth a look in the second row. Hes still quite young but at about 6ft 4 he might be a bit small.

POM on the other hand has always stood out because of his brain as opposed to his size. In the few games I've watched he goes low and is able to bounce players when carrying because of his technique as opposed to his size. I remember when he captained the u20s a few years ago and he was like a one man pack at times, he is good at everything and unfortunately for munster he seemed to be the same last night. Docv2 made his tackles but the rest of the pack was very poor but POM looked like he could mix it so hopefully he will get his chance ahead of ronan in the hec this year. If he doesn't munster fans will have to ask questions of mcgahans judgement on that call.

On Best, I'm delighted that he has played so well and hopefully all the people who have spent his career criticising him now know why he is so highly rated by those who watch him weekly and the coaches. With a bit of luck sherry will overtake varley and we will have two excellent options by the six nations.

Standulstermen wrote:I disagree to an extent Val. In the positions you mention we have the young Irish players but they are being hoarded at different provinces. I dont think the NIQ's is the issue.

Taking Ulster as an example as i know more about them-

We have Pienaar ahead of two very raw SH's who will in no way challenge for Irish honours (certainly in Marshalls case) but they can learn from him and if Porter does develop it will in no small part have been aided by Pienaar.
Muller- THe improvement in Dan Tuohy since he arrived has been stark, to the point were he can actually run a lineout. Vital
Wannenburg- I dont see him as a coach in the same way but realistically Ulster have no backrows coming through of the requisite standard. Pollock would be starting and probably Captaining but for retirement.
Danielli- If he gets selected over Gilroy i will be spitting feathers. Realistically a bench option now.
Afoa- we have Cronin who isnt going to make it, Deccie Fitz who wont make it and Macklin showing some signs of promise this year. Learning from a 30 cap All Black is excellent for them in developing their all round game.

The issues as i see it are there are Irish players blocking Irish players. I agree wholeheartedly regarding Whitten moving. I think Munster could have used him. We have Wallace blocking Marshall now at 12. Now Wallace isnt ever going to be Irelands first choice 12 by the looks of things. At what point does the IRFU step in? Im not criticising Paddy by the way but he is their employee not Ulsters after all. Im not sure how this can work

At Leinster we have seen D'arcy continually picked in front of McFadden who is now 25. At what stage do we ask Leinster to think to the future. We now potentially have Fitz in front of McFadden as well for 12 to say nothing of young Brendan Macken. McFadden is now 25 and has no clue whether he is viewed as a 12,13 or 11. To my mind that smacks of bad management on our part and in no way down to the NIQ's.

Im not certain how we reconcile bringing youngsters through with maintaining provincial success but to my mind we are prioritising the latter massively over the former.

I think that it is vital that we have NIQs because, as you've mentioned with muller, they bring a lot of experience and I'm sure howlett and nacewa have helped earls, kearney and others. But it becomes a problem when munster continue to buy NIQ centres instead of trusting youngsters. I agree that there is a problem with central contracts and there probably should be a loan system in place so that the provinces can let people like mcfadden and nagle go in the knowledge that they'll get them back if they come good.

There has to be a balancing act and I suppose in some ways only having four provinces hinders us but we aren't using our resources as well as we should. I'm not sure what the answer is but I think the reduction to 4 NIQ is a good idea.

valjester wrote:

roddersm wrote:Alyn you are a gentleman. Wise and kind words sir . I would hope that Keatley and Sexton will be the fly halves going forward with Jackson in the pipeline but ROG is contracted until 2013 so we'll have to see what happens.

Val thanks for mentioning Rory. I thought he was magnificant, especially condisidering it looked like his tournament was over last week. He hurled himself into contact with 110% effort and seemed to be everywhere.

Glad to hear Fitzgerald is going well at 12. I thought he was unlucky not to make the squad and he still has plenty to offer.

POM seems to be an exciting prospect. I really hope Ruddock steps up to the plate though. He has massive potential but he rarely impresses me when I've watched him, which hasn't been that often to be fair.

Ruddock has a lot to learn, when he was younger he was always the biggest player and would make ground at will but it means his technique for carrying the ball is poor. He is a natural leader though so you'd still hope he'd come good. The only problem is I'm not sure if hes quick enough for any of the backrow positions. He isn't a 7 and is carrying isn't good enough as a 8, plus we've a lot of 6s coming through so I'd wonder if he would be worth a look in the second row. Hes still quite young but at about 6ft 4 he might be a bit small.

POM on the other hand has always stood out because of his brain as opposed to his size. In the few games I've watched he goes low and is able to bounce players when carrying because of his technique as opposed to his size. I remember when he captained the u20s a few years ago and he was like a one man pack at times, he is good at everything and unfortunately for munster he seemed to be the same last night. Docv2 made his tackles but the rest of the pack was very poor but POM looked like he could mix it so hopefully he will get his chance ahead of ronan in the hec this year. If he doesn't munster fans will have to ask questions of mcgahans judgement on that call.

On Best, I'm delighted that he has played so well and hopefully all the people who have spent his career criticising him now know why he is so highly rated by those who watch him weekly and the coaches. With a bit of luck sherry will overtake varley and we will have two excellent options by the six nations.

Thats the key for me to any youngster coming through and thats probably why i would prioritise gametime for Marshall over Spence. me and Rodders disagree on this but i dont think Spence will ever have the nous to run a backline or co-ordinate a defence in the same way that Marshall or Cave could. I really need to see more of POM but report makes him very good indeed and i am hopeful regarding your praise of him. Im not saying Spence is thick by the way Rodders!

On the above post; i wouldnt disagree with any of that Val. It will mean the provinces have to be more circumspect when selecting their NIQ's. I still think the main issue is dropping our experienced IQ players for the next generation

Standulstermen wrote:

valjester wrote:

roddersm wrote:Alyn you are a gentleman. Wise and kind words sir . I would hope that Keatley and Sexton will be the fly halves going forward with Jackson in the pipeline but ROG is contracted until 2013 so we'll have to see what happens.

Val thanks for mentioning Rory. I thought he was magnificant, especially condisidering it looked like his tournament was over last week. He hurled himself into contact with 110% effort and seemed to be everywhere.

Glad to hear Fitzgerald is going well at 12. I thought he was unlucky not to make the squad and he still has plenty to offer.

POM seems to be an exciting prospect. I really hope Ruddock steps up to the plate though. He has massive potential but he rarely impresses me when I've watched him, which hasn't been that often to be fair.

Ruddock has a lot to learn, when he was younger he was always the biggest player and would make ground at will but it means his technique for carrying the ball is poor. He is a natural leader though so you'd still hope he'd come good. The only problem is I'm not sure if hes quick enough for any of the backrow positions. He isn't a 7 and is carrying isn't good enough as a 8, plus we've a lot of 6s coming through so I'd wonder if he would be worth a look in the second row. Hes still quite young but at about 6ft 4 he might be a bit small.

POM on the other hand has always stood out because of his brain as opposed to his size. In the few games I've watched he goes low and is able to bounce players when carrying because of his technique as opposed to his size. I remember when he captained the u20s a few years ago and he was like a one man pack at times, he is good at everything and unfortunately for munster he seemed to be the same last night. Docv2 made his tackles but the rest of the pack was very poor but POM looked like he could mix it so hopefully he will get his chance ahead of ronan in the hec this year. If he doesn't munster fans will have to ask questions of mcgahans judgement on that call.

On Best, I'm delighted that he has played so well and hopefully all the people who have spent his career criticising him now know why he is so highly rated by those who watch him weekly and the coaches. With a bit of luck sherry will overtake varley and we will have two excellent options by the six nations.

Thats the key for me to any youngster coming through and thats probably why i would prioritise gametime for Marshall over Spence. me and Rodders disagree on this but i dont think Spence will ever have the nous to run a backline or co-ordinate a defence in the same way that Marshall or Cave could. I really need to see more of POM but report makes him very good indeed and i am hopeful regarding your praise of him. Im not saying Spence is thick by the way Rodders!

I agree with you on spence, he is a follower rather that a leader, similiar to earls. Cave can run a defence but isn't the quickest so you need a combination of the two. With spence he has the potential to learn but there are somethings you need naturally. I think that marshall has the physical attributes and probably the brains.

POM has put on the weight and now looks to have the physicality to go with the brains and just needs to control his temper a bit. You don't want to take the rage out of him, he just needs to direct in the right direction.

I disagree about Spence, I think he shows real class at times, and definitely has a good rugby brain. Here is an example, very BOD like imo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULYj6KXqFPE

He has also done some very clever plays this season, one example would be a beautiful inside pass he gave which led to a try, not sure which match. If there is anything he should work on it is his offloading game, and I think he will improve here.

Spence is a monster of a centre IMO and you can do a lot worse than build your midfield around him. I thought he should have been introduced this year and said the same a few months ago on here

Also here is a XV of young potential players I believe will make a huge impact over the next number of years for their provinces and Ireland:

1) McAllister
2) Sherry
3) Hagan/Macklin
4) Nagle
5) ?
6) Ruddock/Ryan
7) ?
8) POM/Ruddock
9) Murray (already there but still very young)
10) Keatley/Jackson
11) Zebo/Conway
12) Marshall
13) Spence
14) Gilroy
15) Jones

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I disagree about Spence, I think he shows real class at times, and definitely has a good rugby brain. Here is an example, very BOD like imo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULYj6KXqFPE

He has also done some very clever plays this season, one example would be a beautiful inside pass he gave which led to a try, not sure which match. If there is anything he should work on it is his offloading game, and I think he will improve here.

These are attacking plays that you're showing. Stand and I are talking about the defensive side to his game and more specifically his ability to organise a defence, his tackling is v good. I have no doubt about his running and offloading game. His long passing and defensive organisation are the same level as wallace/cave which will be the centre partnership when they get back for the hec.

I think he can run a play with the best of them and physically he is certainly ready imo. He hits harder than any pretender to the 13 shirt imo but thats not what im saying. Val has made good points above but i dont think he is consistent enough with his passing. He can do it but at times he can lose track of where his support is and he doesnt have the pass that say a Marshall or Wallace has. Marshalls break against the Dragons was a prime example. He made the break, got serious yards but was constantly thinking and looking for the next offload. Spence (not always) usually puts the head down.

I would like to see him come into the 6N squad as BOD is most likely going to be around and to play alongside the great man will help him no end (it might help BOD too). The things i have highlighted that he needs to work on he has plenty of time to do so and i think he shows the endeavour and right attitude to become a top player. I still think he needs a player with smarts alongside him to get the best out of him.

Can't really subscribe to this 'post mortem' thinking. Ireland lost a game of rugby - it happens. On the way they put in their best ever pool stage games so things aren't as doom and gloom as being made out here. The WHOLE pack could conceivably make the next RWC so there is no need to start rookies unless they earn the right to the shirt.

The backs are more of a concern as ROG, GDA and BOD already look as if this was a RWC too far. I don't expect to see Darce or ROG again in green so who will be the new 12 in the 6N? Spence seems to be the only viable candidate at this stage if Ireland want a bosh it up merchant like Roberts in the midfield.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I disagree about Spence, I think he shows real class at times, and definitely has a good rugby brain. Here is an example, very BOD like imo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULYj6KXqFPE

He has also done some very clever plays this season, one example would be a beautiful inside pass he gave which led to a try, not sure which match. If there is anything he should work on it is his offloading game, and I think he will improve here.

I agree. I think he is extremely clever. He reads a defence as well as any player I've seen. He has excellent hands, an eye for the gap and excellent physicality and aggression.

I think the people who think he's been poor this season need to watch him again. He has been winning restarts like Shane Horgan, he does breakdown work like a loose forward, his defence has been excellent, he gets over the gainline every time he gets the ball and his sleight of hand has been evident in a number of Caves tries.

Of course he still makes mistakes but for me he is the most complete centre in Ireland and has been for a while. If he keeps playing the way he is then he will be pushing for a starting place for Ireland next season.