Irish New Zealand Tour 2012

In just 9 months time, the Irish rugby team will be heading back to the Land of the Long White Cloud. Ireland will take on New Zealand in a 3 match Test series and this will surely put our resources to the Test. There is no doubt we shall see at least a handful of retirements post World Cup and more will be phased out of the squad sooner rather than later.

It a punishing tour to have at the end of a World Cup year BUT plenty can be learned from it if done well. Hopefully we shall see 2-3 midweek games scheduled along with the Tests so that we can see some of the fringe players in the senior environment playing in hostile territories in a green jersey.

With that in mind, I would choose a squad of 37 that looked something like this, though I am fully aware that retirements, injuries loss of form and some bolters will come through in the interim:

Prop: Cian Healy, Paddy McCalister, Tom Court, Mike Ross, Jamie Hagan, John Andress

Hooker: Rory Best, Sean Cronin, Mike Sherry

Lock: Paul O'Connell, Donncha O'Callaghan, Donncha Ryan, Dan Tuohy, Devin Toner, Ian Nagle

Back Row: Sean O'Brien, Stephen Ferris, Jamie Heaslip, Rhys Ruddock, Peter O'Mahoney, Dominic Ryan, Kevin McLaughlin

Scrum Half: Conor Murray, Eoin Reddan, Tomás O'Leary

Out Half: Johnny Sexton, Ian Keatley

Centre: Brian O'Driscoll, Nevin Spence, Fergus McFadden, Luke Marshall

Back Three: Keith Earls, Andrew Trimble, Tommy Bowe, Luke Fitzgerald, Rob Kearney, Felix Jones

I wouldnt bring O Driscoll to be honest. Time to move on now. Hes not a normal 33 year old- hes older than that if that makes sense.

Toner would want to start with the muscle drinks and bulk up a bit. Hes just too skinny.

Donners needs replacing too.. Time to move on.

With who though Boyne? We shouldn't go to New Zealand with such an inexperienced squad.

Craig Gilroy i would add to that. BOD should be given the summer off for a change i think but would he want that. Good squad though MBTGOG. Darren Cave could be in there too but its a while off yet.

I wouldn't bring Luke Marshall unless he sees a lot more game time for Ulster this year. I like the rest of the squad. May there be a case for Danny Barnes or else treating Earls/Bowe as out and out centre.

Boyne wrote:I wouldnt bring O Driscoll to be honest. Time to move on now. Hes not a normal 33 year old- hes older than that if that makes sense.

Toner would want to start with the muscle drinks and bulk up a bit. Hes just too skinny.
Donners needs replacing too.. Time to move on.

Toner is pushing 20 stone as it is, if he bulks up anymore nobody will be able to lift him. I don't think the guy has a future as an international lock.

I'm surprised no has mentioned Tomás' inclusion! He would have to up his game a lot. Would agree with the majority of the squad besides that.

Who else would we have? Duncan Williams? Isaac Boss? Paul Marshall? Peter Stringer? Paul O'Donoghue?

O'Leary is fine as 3rd choice.

John Andress has been woeful since his return to the Chiefs, Munsty - he was a better player when he left 2+ years ago than he is now

Id debate Paddy McAllister Im a fan but think hes been poor at the start of this season hes definately got potential but needs to find consistancy in his game

Good article Munsty.

I'm with Mickado in that I don't rate Toner as potential International. For that reason I wouldn't be shifting DOC. I think we will need him for a couple more years.
Leinster people, what of Ed O'Donaghue. Any word on him? Not saying he would be up to it but his form a couple of years ago was pretty good.

In the backs I would definately include Gilroy but I don't think Luke Marshall will be there. Darren Cave, if he is picked for Ulster, will put his hand up for sure. If Danny Barnes continues his improvement and plays HC rugby this season then I think he will force his way past a few others.

Ralph Keyes said on Saturday night that anyone aspiring to be an International must play consistently in the HC before they should even be considered. I would ten to agree.

I honestly can't see too many inexperienced guys going on this Tour. And remember, Paddy Wallace has always played well for Ireland Down Under

with regard the props we need a major rethink.

Feek should be given a free role on this, he should be given time to scout out players and we should start backing them now, mcallister and hagan and other young props.

What if we brought 6 or 7 young props done under with us and they were given time with feek and mike ross, working on there scrummaging and giving feek time to assess them, the old way isnt working, or in the case of mike ross its taking too long to identify talent

Rava wrote:
Leinster people, what of Ed O'Donaghue. Any word on him?

Warning warning warning

If you are a young 2nd row and someone from leinster approaches you, run.
I dont know what they are doing with them, but they are mysteriously dissapearing.

Maybe toner is some sort of experiment and they need spare parts

What about Adam Macklin as a very outside bet at tighthead? I think he may shine over the next few years.

O’Donaghue has literally disappeared. We’ve called up Ciaran Ruddock, and signed Dave Gannon (then quickly got rid of him again) rather than playing Ed. He doesn’t even make the A team. it’s remarkable really. He wasn’t THAT bad.

McAllister hasnt been fully fit for any game this season. He has been playing with an injury. He definately is the LH with most potential but he shouldnt be rushed back from injury.

I agree with Stag on Marshall to a large extent. He needs more gametime but hopefully he will get it.
What has Paddy Wallace got left to offer Ireland? Im not sure and im not putting him down. I think he has been underused and messed about a fair bit during D'arcys decline, but as someone who is older than D'arcy what will he bring to the table?

Im not certain he should be going on any tours and in that sense i would take Marshall over him. Stag, where do you stand on bringing youngsters through at the provinces. Its a bloody tricky situation i think

Hi...the squad looks good. I dont see any major changes required from the World cup...just tweaks (look what Gatland has done).

Couple of questions...

Do you rate Danny Barnes in Munster at all? He seems like he could be one to show some more improvement...

For Outhalf I feel that Sexton is not going to get much better and while Keatley has looked good down in Munster wouldnt Jackson be a better bet (ok some of his games he has been a little wayward but he has potential). Also Madigan has impressed me for Leinster.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:What about Adam Macklin as a very outside bet at tighthead? I think he may shine over the next few years.

Macklin could come good (only seen glimpses of promise this year though) but he is clearly our 4th choice TH behind Afoa, Fitzpatrick and Cronin. I dont think he should be behind Cronin and it remains to be seen what our scrum can do with a LH but hopefully he sees some gametime.

newbie wrote:Hi...the squad looks good. I dont see any major changes required from the World cup...just tweaks (look what Gatland has done).

Couple of questions...

Do you rate Danny Barnes in Munster at all? He seems like he could be one to show some more improvement...

For Outhalf I feel that Sexton is not going to get much better and while Keatley has looked good down in Munster wouldnt Jackson be a better bet (ok some of his games he has been a little wayward but he has potential). Also Madigan has impressed me for Leinster.

Do you mean much better than his current form or the form he showed at the end of last season? Because I'd take any player playing at the "Sexton in the HC final" level!

newbie wrote:Hi...the squad looks good. I dont see any major changes required from the World cup...just tweaks (look what Gatland has done).

Couple of questions...

Do you rate Danny Barnes in Munster at all? He seems like he could be one to show some more improvement...

For Outhalf I feel that Sexton is not going to get much better and while Keatley has looked good down in Munster wouldnt Jackson be a better bet (ok some of his games he has been a little wayward but he has potential). Also Madigan has impressed me for Leinster.

Gatland has done far more than tweak. He has totally dismantled his backrow, backed a new 10, given youth a chance at 13, 14 and 15 and been prepared to drop Lions from his squad. Fair play to him.

Hi Mickado (interesting name)...

Yes he did play very well in that game. I am not saying drop Sexton as he is a good player and I think he must become the incumbent. But I dont feel he has that spark or ability to move things on. I would say HC is slightly different from Intl in terms of intensity, speed and level of play.

My worry for him is lack of consistency. I would like to see him get better, but I am not sure if he can yet.

D24 interesting comments. Similar with potential 7's as well.

Apologies if I have breached any copyright but this is from Belfast Telegraph (Hugh Farrelly). Some interesting comments. Some talking points.

Another World Cup, another search for answers following a disappointing exit. This one doesn't feel like four years ago, however.

France 2007 was a succession of kicks in the solar plexus; this time around, Ireland's World Cup was a positive story up until last Saturday. Which makes the frustration all the more intense. A first semi-final appearance seemed to be Ireland's destiny at New Zealand 2011.

That they failed to achieve it makes the World Cup a failure, a fact that was readily acknowledged by the players.

“We were very confident,” said Tommy Bowe. “Things had been going well for us. Off the pitch it has been good, it just really is the ending we didn't want.”

So what happens now? We are in the situation that Ronan O'Gara was dreading when he spoke to the media that first week in Queenstown.

“A lot of us realise it's our last shot at something big,” said the out-half. “It's important we go for that, as opposed to finding an excuse and coming home and one club winning a European Cup, that's not good enough.”

Only a first victory over New Zealand on the three-Test tour next summer could hope to seriously diminish the sense of disappointment felt now.

It is customary to talk about four-year cycles geared towards peaking for World Cups, yet Wales and New Zealand are making a mockery of that approach.

The Welsh have fallen upon a winning formula almost by accident (only six of their players started in the same position for the Six Nations win over Ireland seven months ago), while the All Blacks had four years to unearth a replacement for Dan Carter and have chanced upon a young fella (Aaron Cruden) who looks like a cross between Eminem and Screech from ‘Saved By The Bell' but could also be the best playmaker in the competition.

For Ireland, there will be no Genesis Report, no root-and-branch investigation and blame game because, ultimately, it was not a bad World Cup, it was a bad day against Wales. However, there are areas to address before England 2015.

Coaches

There will be usual wild calls for a new head coach but, while the

fallout from 2007 rendered Eddie O'Sullivan's position untenable, there is no such situation this time with Declan Kidney.

Winning a Grand Slam in your first season does that, as does beating Tri-Nations champions Australia in what should still be regarded as one of the most significant victories in Irish rugby history given the stage, pressure and circumstances in the build-up.

Kidney has a two-year contract and his lieutenants Les Kiss, Greg Feek and Gert Smal are among the best in the business.

What he does not have is a backs coach, as Alan Gaffney's time with Ireland is up. This is an area in urgent need of attention as Ireland have only intermittently produced compelling attacking play over the past few seasons.

The chances of getting Joe Schmidt to share his Leinster duties with Ireland, the way Gaffney and Feek have done, are remote given the busy brief of a provincial head coach but, as primary funders, the IRFU make the rules here and Schmidt would be perfect alongside Kidney looking after the backs.

Whoever Ireland go for, there needs to be a sharp improvement and a discernible style of back play, for that was woefully lacking against the Welsh.

Depth

We're banging the drum again but Irish rugby must embrace the concept of running onto the ball from depth. It is something that you used to be taught from underage up, how to time your run and take the pass at full tilt, and Keith Wood was doing it 15 years ago.

Occasionally, static runners can be used to set up ball, but only then.

It is not a hard skill, it is a mindset and one that Irish rugby urgently needs to embrace.

Taking points

Kicking for the corner rather than the posts is a positive statement but swiftly becomes a negative if it does not translate into precious points on the board

Too often, we have seen this Irish team camped on the line with no clear idea of how to manufacture a try beyond basic pick-and-go or pop-and-drive manoeuvres.

There is plenty of time on the training pitch to come up with moves for this situation, dummy mauls, triple targets to keep defenders guessing, reverse flicks to players inside, which can be triggered by a call from the scrum-half.

Openside

Given how Australia's David Pocock performed yesterday against South Africa, his absence against Ireland looks an increasingly significant factor in the Wallabies' defeat.

Sam Warburton too was a major thorn in Irish sides, and it sometimes took two or three forwards to shift the Wales captain, not helped by Craig Joubert's laissez faire policy at ruck time.

Sean O'Brien had a big tournament in the No 7 jersey and the Irish back-row, against the Wallabies and Italians, worked around the fact they did not have a natural ‘fetcher'.

However, it would make sense to develop an out-and-out openside and there are several candidates out there; Willie Faloon, Dominic Ryan and Peter O'Mahony chief among them.

Out-half

For the first time since 1999, Ireland will go to a World Cup with no Ronan O'Gara. They are fortunate to have Jonathan Sexton, who will have just turned 30 in 2015, but a second out-half is harder to pin-point.

Ian Humphreys is the most talented but has missed his chance at this stage, Ian Keatley has the potential to come through while Sexton's Leinster colleague Ian Madigan could be the pick.

Replacing an institution

Brian O'Driscoll was visibly distraught after Saturday's defeat. For one of the greatest players to have played the game, from any country, never to reach a World Cup semi-final is a travesty.

He has worn the Ireland No 13 jersey for so long (12 years), it is difficult to imagine anyone else in it but Ireland will need someone there in 2015. Keith Earls, Luke Fitzgerald and Fergus McFadden are all live candidates and let’s see how Nevin Spence develops in Ulster.

But it will not merely be a case of replacing the centre, there is also the issue of replacing the captain. Paul O'Connell turns 32 in a few days and may not be on the scene in 2015. Rory Best (29) still has age on his side and had a superb tournament.

He was Ireland's best player ahead of Sean O'Brien and Cian Healy. Even with a shoulder injury complicating his build-up, Best (left) was immense against the Welsh in his tackling, loose play, and covering.

He commands tremendous respect among players and coaches and, depending on Jerry Flannery's recovery, is out on his own as first-choice hooker.

Stephen Archer is worth a look at. We must develop props and he certainly has potential.

Is Archer a TH Muff? I can see whoever the young props are at Munster improving massively in the next year or two with Botha in the camp.

it was something special to watch botha in full flow on saturday when he came on against the ospreys, He will be invaluable to the props at munster

Standulstermen wrote: Stag, where do you stand on bringing youngsters through at the provinces. Its a bloody tricky situation i think

I think its something we do well. We give Pro 12 gametime to inexperienced guys when our big names are resting. Then they are able to challenge the big names and get their chance at the top.

I know there were injuries but we went into the RWC without Marcus Horan, Jerry Flannery, John Hayes, Mick O'Driscoll, David Wallace, Peter Stringer, Tomas O'Leary, Shane Horgan and Luke Fitzgerald.

I think we have new faces coming through in every position and Munster; despite having a very old squad; have seen the likes of Sherry, Archer, Nagle, O'Mahony, O'Donnell, Murray, Williams, Keatley, Barnes, Zebo, Jones all emerge as viable young players for the future.

I don't really see POM being our answer to an openside.. from what I have seen he would be wasted there. He looked like an incredible 8 against the ospreys.

By the sounds coming out of the camp no one is retiring and most of the older guys are seeing out their contracts.

I think things are in danger of getting stale if we don't make some serious changes but it looks like things are going to be gradual rather than radical.

BOD looks busted physically but seems intent in carrying on. Not only is his pace gone but his physical strength seems to be waning too. If he's intent on continuing then this tour should be his swansong I think. The Lions in 2013 is a pipedream I think.

POC looks as good as ever and I'm sure has another season or two left.

I wouldn't be taking Devin Toner or Tomas O'leary anywhere .

Luke Marshall is a season or two away from international level IMO but Darren Cave has been in fantastic form and I hear Fitzgerald is playing well at 12? Craig Gilroy can't be far off either in terms of a wing spot.

Strauss ahead of Cronin??

If O'Leary gets back to the form shown in 2009 it would be short sighted not to consider him or do you not rate him at all. As for Toner think how Charteris was not considered by the welsh not too long ago and look at him now. Seems a little short sighted to dismiss players . On their current form no arguement but its a new season

No Jennings? Will you ever learn!

Jennings isn't international class, and it has been proved a number of times now.

If i was Paddy Wallace i'd retire from international to be honest.
Spending most of the season as a tackle bag for an international squad with no game time is no way to finish your career.

Darcy should be left to one side as well.

In saying that, I'm far from convinced by the young centers at this stage. After ranting and raving about Spence last year, I've seen his immaturaty more clearly this season and truth be told, i reckon Darren Cave is taking some major steps towards putting his hand up for international recognition.


Luke Marshall needs the opportunity to prove himself on a more consistant basis, but he cant get a start at ulster as it is, nevermind with Paddy back.

Thing is, if we call for these players to step aside internationally, they have to step aside provincionally too otherwise the 'new' internationals wont get the chance to prove themselves and find form.

Rava wrote:
Leinster people, what of Ed O'Donaghue. Any word on him? Not saying he would be up to it but his form a couple of years ago was pretty good.

I don't think he's even at Leinster anymore. This seems to indicate he's off to France after Schmidt didn't rate him enough to include in any kind of senior squad.

http://www.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/pro-d2/2011-2012/rcnm-odonoghue-a-lessai_sto2974301/flashnews.shtml

However, it would make sense to develop an out-and-out openside and there are several candidates out there; Willie Faloon, Dominic Ryan and Peter O'Mahony chief among them.

This just goes to show how desperate we are- I don't rate Faloon much at all, and Ryan and O'Mahony are unproven yet. Hope one of them comes through so we can vary our backrow for big games.

David Pollocks retirement was the biggest blow to our international side in quite some time. He would have been the only good openside in Ireland were he playing today.

Notch wrote:
This just goes to show how desperate we are- I don't rate Faloon much at all, and Ryan and O'Mahony are unproven yet. Hope one of them comes through so we can vary our backrow for big games.

Jeebus we don't give our young fellas much time to prove themselves do we? Spence immature? Hes just turned 21 FFS!

Faloon had a cracking season last year. Ulster have had a poor start to the season and a lot of players haven't got going yet, the same with Leinster. Faloon for me has the instincts and work rate to be a top 7 but does he have the physicality? Right now maybe not but give him another season before writing him off.

I haven't seen that much off Ryan and TOM but when I have they've looked good.

We are far to quick to write our young guys off in this country yet we are seemingly oblivious to the inaquacies and shortcomings that some of our more established players have.

O'Gara wasn't a top class 10 until he was over 25 IMO. BOD had plenty of weakness when he came on the scene (and still does), D'arcy didn't show his class until his 2nd stint with Ireland at 23. Bowe was 25 before he was world class and had been written off a few times. girv the swerve was pushing 30 before he became a complete full back. David Wallace was in his late 20's before he nailed down a green jersey.

There's plenty of talented youngsters there but we have to show a bit off faith and patience and give them time to work on their weaknesses. Some will come good and some won't and each will develop at different rates but we need to give young guys a chance before writing them off as substandard.

Rant over.

clivemcl wrote:
Luke Marshall needs the opportunity to prove himself on a more consistant basis, but he cant get a start at ulster as it is, nevermind with Paddy back.

Luke Marshall is being kept out of the Ulster side by a 21 year old and a 24 year old. It's not like it's some NIQ journey men are keeping him out. He'll get his chance but right now Spence and Cave are playing better.

The fact that Ulster have 3 young IQ players fighting it out for two centre spots is fantastic for Ulster and Ireland IMO. It's a long season and Ulster need several options in each position so I'm sure Marshall will get plenty of gametime.

I dont really care who comes.
Just make sure theyre competitive.
With 3 tests that is the ideal opportunity to get the monkey off the back in at least one.
I for one think it would be a good thing for the sport if ireland get a win. Anything more a bonus!

Rodders, I wasnt running down the youngsters, I was just saying you would hardly feel comfortable seeing many of them in green this very minute.

roddersm wrote:
O'Gara wasn't a top class 10 until he was over 25 IMO. BOD had plenty of weakness when he came on the scene (and still does), D'arcy didn't show his class until his 2nd stint with Ireland at 23. Bowe was 25 before he was world class and had been written off a few times. girv the swerve was pushing 30 before he became a complete full back. David Wallace was in his late 20's before he nailed down a green jersey.

Exactly, and as for the tri-nations, is it similar? or would you say most of their internationals break through a lot earlier? And isnt that the point. I want to compete with the big teams, and that meeans bright shining young stars bursting onto the scene. There is encouraging potential, but very little 'bursting'. Perhaps its in the mentality of how we help our youngsters to grow. But you can't deny that the irish setup is very good at idolising the current players too long, and this probably restricts the youngsters in their gametime and self belief.

Will there be a big travelling contingent do you think after how much the Irish took to NZ this time?

With regards to player development:
Ireland aren't producing hard running 12s

Ireland aren't producing scrummaging props

Ireland aren't producing tall second rows

Ireland aren't producing groundhog openside flankers

Ireland aren't producing scrumhalves with an attacking threat

Ireland are producing attacking hookers

Ireland are producing good back 3 players

Ireland are producing good ball carrying backrows

Do we base our game plan around who is coming through? Or do we develop our players around the game plan we want. I certainly don't see Ireland for example being capable of playing our kick to corner, challenge the lineout and crash over the line tactic in a few years.

Anyone else see that Brian O'Driscoll has almost the same amount of appearances for Ireland, than for Leinster

He has represented Ireland on 117 (240 points) occasions. He has represented Leinster on 151 appearances (271 points).

red_stag wrote:Anyone else see that Brian O'Driscoll has almost the same amount of appearances for Ireland, than for Leinster

He has represented Ireland on 117 (240 points) occasions. He has represented Leinster on 151 appearances (271 points).

I knew they were close alright, he played for Ireland before he played for Leinster.

Clive yes you are spot on. There is too much hero worship in young guys and not enough of them stepping up to the plate and putting real pressure on the older guys.

Does Donnacha Ryan really believe he is better than O'Connell and DOC? Does McFadden believe he is better that D'arcy and O'Driscoll? Are these guys 'happy' to be squad players?

Murray has pushed on well but did he get a leg up from Kidney that others aren't getting?

I think Spence, Cave, Thouhy and Gilroy have stepped up to the plate and are knocking on the international door on merit.

Luke Fitzgerald isn't going away and has plenty to offer.

TOM seems to have kicked on but there just seems to be too many players who are satisfied to warm the bench or hold tackle bags. Coughlan is 28 but must be putting pressure on Heaslip.

In terms of the RWC squad only Trimble, Flannery (before his injury) and ROG/Sexton put pressure on the starting players.

Our selection policy must reward form and not reputation though because if young players feel they won't get picked when they are playing well and the senior guys aren't that isn't going to encourage them to improve.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Jennings isn't international class, and it has been proved a number of times now.

No. No. NONONONONO! It has not been 'proved'. What he is not, is a clone of Wallace or SOB. It's not about making a couple of dazzling runs in either half. Lydiate hardly carried at all on Saturday but he was our man of the match.

roddersm wrote:Clive yes you are spot on. There is too much hero worship in young guys and not enough of them stepping up to the plate and putting real pressure on the older guys.

Does Donnacha Ryan really believe he is better than O'Connell and DOC? Does McFadden believe he is better that D'arcy and O'Driscoll? Are these guys 'happy' to be squad players?

Murray has pushed on well but did he get a leg up from Kidney that others aren't getting?

I think Spence, Cave, Thouhy and Gilroy have stepped up to the plate and are knocking on the international door on merit.

Luke Fitzgerald isn't going away and has plenty to offer.

TOM seems to have kicked on but there just seems to be too many players who are satisfied to warm the bench or hold tackle bags. Coughlan is 28 but must be putting pressure on Heaslip.

In terms of the RWC squad only Trimble, Flannery (before his injury) and ROG/Sexton put pressure on the starting players.

Our selection policy must reward form and not reputation though because if young players feel they won't get picked when they are playing well and the senior guys aren't that isn't going to encourage them to improve.

100% Rodders

I know what you mean Glas, I don’t expect Jennings to be a clone of Wallace or SOB, he doesn’t play like that for Leinster but he is massively effective at what he does. He just hasn’t been able to be that effective for Ireland.

red_stag wrote:

Do we base our game plan around who is coming through? Or do we develop our players around the game plan we want. I certainly don't see Ireland for example being capable of playing our kick to corner, challenge the lineout and crash over the line tactic in a few years.

I think you have to base your game plan on the players that are available.If you thry to make players play in a way they aren't suited you are making things hard before you've even kicked off.
All this talk of developing a natural no.7 sounds silly to me,we have a natural no.7 in Jennings but O'Brien and Wallace are better 7's even if they don't play the position in the traditional way.

Glas a du wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Jennings isn't international class, and it has been proved a number of times now.

No. No. NONONONONO! It has not been 'proved'. What he is not, is a clone of Wallace or SOB. It's not about making a couple of dazzling runs in either half. Lydiate hardly carried at all on Saturday but he was our man of the match.

Yeah I agree. Jennings has missed the boat though or at least those on the boat didn't seem to notice what be brought to the crew.

In terms of this tour. We need to pick our best players. If the older guys are still performing then I would select them and if young unproven guys are playing better then they should go.

If it's a 50/50 call I think we seriously now need to be putting our faith in younger guys who will be at their peak in 2015.

Carwyn James (who?) said keep a losing side, change a winning one. It's when you are doing well you should be experimenting with marginal squad members, not when morale is low as in now. No night of the long knives, but tell the Golden Generation their job is now to bed in their replacements over the next 12-18 months.

roddersm wrote:
In terms of this tour. We need to pick our best players. If the older guys are still performing then I would select them and if young unproven guys are playing better then they should go.

If it's a 50/50 call I think we seriously now need to be putting our faith in younger guys who will be at their peak in 2015.

I wonder what we might find if we analysed the welsh in the past four years compared with Ireland. I know in terms of Celtic League and HC, Wales have not performed to our standard. We might see the same thing if we looked at the six nations.

Perhaps we need to consider that for young talent to get up to speed, they need to be risked, and poor results are necessary for future gain...

(Ulster are doing their bit for ireland in this respect lately! )

Clive I think we put too much emphasis on provincial performance and experience. Look at North, Faletau and Priestland. Who cares how many HEC medals they've won? Wales stick these guys in a welsh jersey and they become 10 feet tall and we're left scratching our heads.

Look at how Gatland handled Preistland. He has a shaky game against SA and could so easily have handed the 10 shirt back to Jones or Hook at the 1st opportunity but he showed faith in preistland and it is paying off. If Preistland has a poor game then he'll learn from it so it is a win/win situation.

By contrast Kidney has sent a clear message to Sexton that he doesn't trust him in the biggest games and the 34 year old that replaced him didn't perform. Lose /lose for us.

I'd like to see Spence and Cave in an Ireland shirt at the soonest opportunity. If it costs us a game or two in the short term so be it but we are flogging a dead horse with D'arcy and BOD. The midfield is just devoid of dynamism and power.

I'd like to see Keatley come in as Sextons understudy and let Sexton step up and take a senior role in the squad. Hopefully by 2013 Jackson will be putting pressure on both. ROG is still available if we need him but we can't build the squad around guys >32 any more.

Like wise in the pack. DOC can still do a job but I think Touhy,Ryan and POC should be the match day locks going forward.

Other than that I wouldn't see too many changes straight away but we have to start the rebuilding now.