Irish New Zealand Tour 2012

First topic message reminder :

In just 9 months time, the Irish rugby team will be heading back to the Land of the Long White Cloud. Ireland will take on New Zealand in a 3 match Test series and this will surely put our resources to the Test. There is no doubt we shall see at least a handful of retirements post World Cup and more will be phased out of the squad sooner rather than later.

It a punishing tour to have at the end of a World Cup year BUT plenty can be learned from it if done well. Hopefully we shall see 2-3 midweek games scheduled along with the Tests so that we can see some of the fringe players in the senior environment playing in hostile territories in a green jersey.

With that in mind, I would choose a squad of 37 that looked something like this, though I am fully aware that retirements, injuries loss of form and some bolters will come through in the interim:

Prop: Cian Healy, Paddy McCalister, Tom Court, Mike Ross, Jamie Hagan, John Andress

Hooker: Rory Best, Sean Cronin, Mike Sherry

Lock: Paul O'Connell, Donncha O'Callaghan, Donncha Ryan, Dan Tuohy, Devin Toner, Ian Nagle

Back Row: Sean O'Brien, Stephen Ferris, Jamie Heaslip, Rhys Ruddock, Peter O'Mahoney, Dominic Ryan, Kevin McLaughlin

Scrum Half: Conor Murray, Eoin Reddan, Tomás O'Leary

Out Half: Johnny Sexton, Ian Keatley

Centre: Brian O'Driscoll, Nevin Spence, Fergus McFadden, Luke Marshall

Back Three: Keith Earls, Andrew Trimble, Tommy Bowe, Luke Fitzgerald, Rob Kearney, Felix Jones

Rory_Gallagher wrote:That's another thing that comes to mind.. when I first saw Spence at 12 and Cave at 13 I thought why not switch them around? Cave seems to be the smarter player, good at breaking the gain line and his decision making is great. I think he could make a great 12, and his lack of pace would not matter here.

With Spence at 13 he can use his pace and power to his full potential. Both players would be allowed to play to their strengths a lot more I think. I am not sure if this would ever happen though, especially with Wallace returning. Rodders, your opinion on this switch would be most appreciated

Heresy! Burn him! At Ulster it's total taboo to suggest that a player could play in any position other than the one they're pigeonholed into. Cave used to be a decent kicker at Sullivan IIRC and imo is a great organiser of defence, he has good acceleration but has not brilliant top line speed - all attributes that could work at 12...
Sorry got carried away there for a moment, next thing I'll be suggesting that Trimble has improved enough to play in the centre again and Ferris could prolong his career at 8... it's not right I tells ya - Keith Wood should never have stopped playing flyhalf...

I've never seen the hype about Jackson personally. I think there is too much hype and not enough substance personally. I've watched him now about half a dozen times and not once has he really wowed me.

He has potential I think but I am more interested in the development of Keatley if I'm honest. I have been watching him for munster a few times this season and I think he looks like he could be at least challenging Sexton for the 10 shirt.

"I think he looks like he could be at least challenging Sexton for the 10 shirt."

Didnt realise Sexton had moved to Munster as well. Lets let Keatley get the Munster No.10 shirt first shall we.

..well since this season Keatley has been starting and playing very well, ROG could find it hard to get his shirt back. It isn't unreasonable to assume Keatley will be on the international stage very soon.

DOD wrote:"I think he looks like he could be at least challenging Sexton for the 10 shirt."

Didnt realise Sexton had moved to Munster as well. Lets let Keatley get the Munster No.10 shirt first shall we.

Exactly, I think that Keatley could be on fire but Munster will still play ROG in their opening HEC games. However Keatley should be capable of making the #10 shirt his own before the end of the season. If Munster were to make it to playoffs/HEC knockouts stages I'd be hoping Keatley has enough to oust ROG - a la O'Leary-Stringer, Hurley-Payne in the past.

Yeah Ward's team looks like it has a few cracks in it, no Tuohy, Gliroy, Keatly, Reddan or Marshall.

I think Keatly could really break through this season, especially since ROG seems like such a good impact sub

The issue with Paddy jackson is at provincial level he is only behind iHumph who can be equally flaky. jackson is only 19 and should imo see significant gametime this season. It may take a couple of years for him to toughen up to the requisite standard but he has a break and good distribution with a decent tactical boot.

Spence to my mind isnt as talented as Cave at present but he has the potential to be so much more . Cave does run our defence but in saying that our defence was bloody good with Wallace/Spence in tandem last season. Its difficult to call truth be told. I maintain though if Ulster want to evolve and have a competitive team (in HEC terms) soon i think we need to get Marshall and Jackson gametime ASAP. DOC and POC came through at the same time as ROG, BOD and D'arce emerged together. We have potentially the nucleus of a very IQ spine to our team in McAllister, Tuohy, Ferris, Jackson, Marshall, Spence, Cave, Gilroy but we must bring them through so they dont become wasted talent.

This can only benefit Ireland as well.

There is a lot of good youth in the provinces they just need to force there way beyond players who have held the jersey for a while, the Darcy's and O'Callaghan's of this world.

A lot of them like Spence, Keatly, Ruddock have a foot in the door but they really need to just blow some of the older guys away with their performances and constincey levels.

Any young talent emerging out of Connacht?

The youthful leinster backrow has been pretty unimpressive to me this season.. before they all got injured. McLaughlin, Ryan and Ruddock underperformed for me. Which is disappointing because I was hoping for big things from them.

Which position do you see Ruddock filling? 6 or 8?

Pete

i think to be honest a few of the older players have been retained at provincial level due to 'experience' and not a lot else. What you say is largely right though we are too generous to older players in terms of playing them back into form imo

I think you have it spot on the Stand, for instance McF was playing brilliantly around Christmas time and Darcy was shambolic at times. I don't understand why mcf didn't get Darcy's spot in at 12.

I agree that the Leinster backrow were very poor at the start of the season, looking to be improving now, but may be too late as SOB, Jenno and Heaslip will all be back in the next 2 weeks or so I'd say

Would you really say we are too generous to older players? They do deliver for us. They start for their provinces and they win trophies. IMO thats the reason they get retained.

Well do you think Leinster wouldn't have won the HCup with mcf at 12 instead of Darcy?

Could see Heaslip getting replaced by Ruddock if his form doesn't improve.

I could but regarding Leinster I'd much rather see

McF take over for Darcy
Toner to get more game time
Continue trying McL at lock
Give Madigan sufficent game time
Kearney needs sufficent game time too but don't know how against Nacewa
BOD to be replaced by EOM or Fitz by the end of the Lions tour

the young leinster backrow have been poor, but considering the limited starts they have had together and the team as a whole, they have started coming good.

you filter jamie heislip or leo cullen into the leinster pack and watch them improve tenfold.

Also schmidt does not put emphasis on results at the start of the season and he will know where the players are at, So it will be whoever sticks around when the big boys get back that will be the test of who is where between ryan and rudduck i feel

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Well do you think Leinster wouldn't have won the HCup with mcf at 12 instead of Darcy?

Clearly Schmidt didn't. He backed Darcy at 12 and his team won the European Cup and lost the Magners League Final (with McFadden at 12)

From what little I have seen of McFadden, I am not sure he will make the cut internationally, at 12 or at wing. Would need him to replace D'Arcy at Leinster and see how he plays.

I think he will replace Darcy at 12 pretty soon tbh.

Although Stag does have a good point on how SChmidt viewed the situation.

That loss in the ML Final can't be put down to mcF however as the lads were gonzo

Ah I know Im only ribbing about that but I think we've got a bit greedy in recent years. Our clubs need to develop but god they need to bloody well win important games too.

2006 - Munster win HEC, Ulster win the Magners League

2007 - N/A

2008 - Munster win HEC, Leinster win Magners League

2009 - Leinster win HEC, Munster win Magners League, Ireland win 6 Nations

2010 - N/A

2011 - Leinster win HEC, Munster win Magners League

Since when is it not enough for our clubs to deliver like this?

Does no one else think Schmidt and other coaches too were told too persist with players like darcy and fitz at the expense of McFadden because they were seen as certs for the world cup?

I'd fully expect McFadden to be starting most hec games this year now that the wc is over for us.

I think he must have been with Fitz,I really can't see any other explanation for his continued selection despite playing the worst rugby of his career at times last season.
He seems to be playing much better lately,I wonder will Schmidt persist wit him at 12?

red_stag wrote:Would you really say we are too generous to older players? They do deliver for us. They start for their provinces and they win trophies. IMO thats the reason they get retained.

Ulster are in a different position on that front though Stag. We havent won anything and to my mind the quicker we get the young guys up to speed and delivering on their potential then the better for us. i cant see us winning anything until these young guys deliver. Im dont think our current team is good enough to win Heineken Cups. I would love to be wrong but i just dont see it.

In some senses i do think we are lacking in that regard on an international front. SOB in the AI's being a point in case as well as the persistence with TOL.

The persistence with TOL would have been resolved by bringing in Reddan or Boss (both several years older than O'Leary) - nothing to do with youth.

I actually think all our provnces are doing great work in giving youth a chance - issue is that not all the youngsters will do enough to take it.

You are absolutely right in that regard but i would rather know what youngsters are good enough at an early stage. You say that the issue with persisting with TOL was down to Reddan and Boss but then Murray was our 1st choice with little or no gametime in the summer.

I think Ulster are doing ok but do you really think we will win an HEC with Paddy Wallace at 12, Simon Danielli at 11 and Ian Humphreys at 10. i cant see it sadly.

Its not that youngsters dont get a chance, they do. However if they dont play like worldbeaters they are more often than not dropped the next game. As i have said before it is tricky balancing results and development but from an Ulster perspective i dont think it is a close call. Development could see us usher in a new generation of players who will be as experienced as Cian Healy is at such a young age.

Edit; my TOl argument doesnt hold up in this instance. I think i am confusing my arguments

I certainly don't see Danielli starting over Trimble or Gilroy. That would be just stupid I think. Wallace I can see starting 12 with Marshall his understudy. Humphreys I think will regain form as the season goes on.

Spence must start at 13 however, in my opinion.

Cave/Spence is a tricky one. i would have said Cave all this season but im not so sure now. the physicality that Spence bring will be invaluable against Leicester and Clermont. Remains to be seen what will happen with Danielli but if he gets a wing spot at Gilroys expense (like last season) then i will tear my hair out

I don't know I think at provincial level players get good chance.

At Munster we had Mike Sherry, Stephen Archer, Felix Jones, Danny Barnes and Conor Murray playing in the Magners League final against Leinster. Our captain (ahead of Howlett, Stringer and Mick O'Driscoll) is 22 year old Peter O'Mahony.

Leinster have given gametime to loads of young guys many of whom have really taken the chance and progressed. Others who didn't deliver are still being given the chance at Celtic League level - by that I mean the likes of Devin Toner.

Ulster (and also Connacht) as you said have opted for youth out of necessity and youth is being given a real chance.

I think the provinces have zero case to answer at the minute - maybe 5-6 years ago we were very poor at bringing through youth but in recent years its being done excellently.

I agree Munster are making good strides Stag. Ulster were decent last year but i get a worrying feeling about when the internationals return. The Spence/Cave combo in midfield was all about security and not very forward thinking for a team whose primary 12 is a distributor.

Court
Best
Afoa
Tuohy
Muller
Ferris
Henry
Wanneburg
Pienaar
Humph
Danielli
Wallace
Cave
Trimble
D'arcy

is looking like our HEC XV and that is imo not great given that Tuohy is the only one who hasnt made a mark internationally who could. If Gilroy and Spence are in there it makes things look better but jackson wont get near a squad that has 3 potential 10's in the starting line up.

Let Jackson worry about being a consistent Celtic League performer first.

red_stag wrote:Let Jackson worry about being a consistent Celtic League performer first.

Maybe so but will he get the chance?

He has had 2 starts this season behind a beaten pack and didnt imo disgrace himself in either. yet he is then jettisoned for what looked like a half fit iHumph.

Maybe Stand - I can't I've ever see this innate talent people keep speaking about. He strikes me as a very talented schools player who has built up a well of expectation. Reminds me a bit of Andrew Burke who played Celtic League for Munster and did the whole Ireland underage scene.

He was playing for Wasps 'A' last I heard and I refereed him a few weeks ago playing for Young Munster. Still only 21 - a serious talent in his teens but couldn't bring it to next level. Thats how I see Jackson.

Jackson looks seriousy classy but still looks like a school boy. He has plenty of gas and an eye for a gap but does he have the game management to play 10?

Personally I think Luke Marshall looks more like a 10 and Jackson a 12 or 15 but hey what do I know........

red_stag wrote:Maybe Stand - I can't I've ever see this innate talent people keep speaking about. He strikes me as a very talented schools player who has built up a well of expectation. Reminds me a bit of Andrew Burke who played Celtic League for Munster and did the whole Ireland underage scene.

He was playing for Wasps 'A' last I heard and I refereed him a few weeks ago playing for Young Munster. Still only 21 - a serious talent in his teens but couldn't bring it to next level. Thats how I see Jackson.

Stag

You may well be right. but my point is we wont know while he is gettin a game here or there with a 2nd choice pack and the sooner we know the sooner we can move on from iHumph who i like as a player but who probably wont deliver trophies for Ulster.

Rodders
we keep arguing but to my mind marshall is the template for a complete 12.

Luke Marshall is a quality 12 well...will be a quality 12 he is one for his age.
I hope he somehow makes it onto the Ulster team this season and produces great things because I think this guy could be electric.

London 2015 Irish centre partnership.....
Marshall and Spence with Sexton at 10 and Murray at 9.

The dark horse for that would be JJ Hanrahan for Munster. Still a baby he'll get there. I hope to see him feature this year. I don't expect he will though. It will take another year. I expect him to be a big feature for Musnter/Ireland from 2013 onwards.

Hanrahan does look the part from the very little i have seen from him. has a lovely pass. Do you see him being a 10 or 12 though Stag. He looked a touch small for a 12 but he is only young.

The lad Griffin from Connacht looks like a good 13 too

Does anyone reckon that Hagan may overtake Ross by the 2013/14 season?

Also does Carr have a chance in Irish green? He's been playing pretty well over the last number of weeks.

What about Macken in the centre for Leinster,does anyone know much about him?

Macken strikes me as another over rated player. I've no doubt he has talent but I'm not sure he'll make it to international level.

Carr does have a chance but not a huge chance. He is a finished but so is Craig Gilroy who I'd prefer.

I see Hanrahan as a 12. I think Munster are going to make a change to a distributing 12. We moved Warwick there last season. I think Keatley will get game time there this season and in time Hanrahan will too.

Macken im not sure about. havent seen enough but looks like Spence-lite to me.
Griffen i havent seen a lot of but i havent been that impressed
By report O'Halloran could be a star out west
Between hanrahan and marshall we could have 12 covered

Yeah all I really know about him is he's a big unit with some pace,unfortunately haven't seen much club rugby this season works been getting in the way.

Carr is more likely to struggle holding onto a leinster blue jersey than an Irish green one with Horgan, Fitz, possibly nacewa, conway, d kearney fighting it out. Great going forward but just not overly confident with his defense. (personal view, don't know if the stats say different)

Macken is back of the line for Leinster centres. Feel sorry for Sheridan, looked more impressive than those around him in the saints pre-season game before going down injured.


Leinster's pack has been very unimpressive with the senior guys away. Ruddock is captain but has not been a pack leader and doesn't work the referee. Strauss as the most established player left in the pack is still doing his normal thing and doesn't seem to take control/authority over his front row cohorts or the tight five. Toner is good at lineout but is not a ball carrier and should just step aside and help recycle/secure ball (leinster have plenty who can carry). Sykes doesn't look HC level in his performances so far (i know he has a knock but even still) and can't figure out how he was S15 calibre. Willis was shocking, he passes to shoelace height 3 out of every 5 attempts.

Skyes doesn't look great yet does he.

You can add McF to that list of 12's

Any young up and coming locks that have been secreted away?
Anyone know if any gems were found at that route 66 thing in Leinster?

Just on the size thing:

Luke Marshall (age 20): 1m 81. 92 kg.
Fergus McFadden (age 25): 1m 81. 90 kg.
Spence (age 21): 1m 82. 91 kg.
Hanrahan (age 19 - July): 1m 80. 90 kg.

Hanrahan is a big lad for a lad who has just gone 19. Plenty of growing left in him yet.

Edit: Macken (age 20): 1m 85. 96 Kg. He is a monster for his age.

Lies, damned lies and statistics Sin.

There is no way Marshall is heavier than Spence. Its the same all over. Ferris is listed as 109kg in many sites when he is over 116kg.

Spence looks at least 6 foot and was listed as such last season, but now on the ulster website he apparently has shrunk to 5"10.. so yeah stats can often be a bit wrong. He is definitely at least 95kg though.

Is there any chance that with ever one of Cave or Spence will move on from Ulster if they aren't starting? With two very talented players what's the point of one being stuck behind the other? I'm no sure where they would go too but might it happen?