Irish New Zealand Tour 2012

First topic message reminder :

In just 9 months time, the Irish rugby team will be heading back to the Land of the Long White Cloud. Ireland will take on New Zealand in a 3 match Test series and this will surely put our resources to the Test. There is no doubt we shall see at least a handful of retirements post World Cup and more will be phased out of the squad sooner rather than later.

It a punishing tour to have at the end of a World Cup year BUT plenty can be learned from it if done well. Hopefully we shall see 2-3 midweek games scheduled along with the Tests so that we can see some of the fringe players in the senior environment playing in hostile territories in a green jersey.

With that in mind, I would choose a squad of 37 that looked something like this, though I am fully aware that retirements, injuries loss of form and some bolters will come through in the interim:

Prop: Cian Healy, Paddy McCalister, Tom Court, Mike Ross, Jamie Hagan, John Andress

Hooker: Rory Best, Sean Cronin, Mike Sherry

Lock: Paul O'Connell, Donncha O'Callaghan, Donncha Ryan, Dan Tuohy, Devin Toner, Ian Nagle

Back Row: Sean O'Brien, Stephen Ferris, Jamie Heaslip, Rhys Ruddock, Peter O'Mahoney, Dominic Ryan, Kevin McLaughlin

Scrum Half: Conor Murray, Eoin Reddan, Tomás O'Leary

Out Half: Johnny Sexton, Ian Keatley

Centre: Brian O'Driscoll, Nevin Spence, Fergus McFadden, Luke Marshall

Back Three: Keith Earls, Andrew Trimble, Tommy Bowe, Luke Fitzgerald, Rob Kearney, Felix Jones

I agree and disagree with you Rodders. I share your enthusiasm for bringing youngsters through but im not sure Ulster have got it right. We are playing two 13's at centre, 6's and 8's at 7 instead of 7, a centre on the wing and two TH's (albeit forced) or 2 hookers in the scrum.

Marshall for me looked better than Spence in the two games they started but thats because he is actually a 12. I would agree to bring Spence through. I think Cave is the better player right now but he isnt as big a threat and i dont think he has as much potential. A BOD, Spence or BOD, Bowe midfield i would like to see. I agree with Notch in that i dont think Faloon will ever be international class but he should be starting.

For my money i think McLaughlin has become far more conservative than he was when he started. He backed Faloon in his first season and now seems to want to play anyone but Willie in the backrow.

Does anyone know the dates/locations of the Tests, been searching, but cant find anything!

May be up for this tour!

MBTGOG wrote:In just 9 months time, the Irish rugby team will be heading back to the Land of the Long White Cloud. Ireland will take on New Zealand in a 3 match Test series and this will surely put our resources to the Test. There is no doubt we shall see at least a handful of retirements post World Cup and more will be phased out of the squad sooner rather than later.

It a punishing tour to have at the end of a World Cup year BUT plenty can be learned from it if done well. Hopefully we shall see 2-3 midweek games scheduled along with the Tests so that we can see some of the fringe players in the senior environment playing in hostile territories in a green jersey.

With that in mind, I would choose a squad of 37 that looked something like this, though I am fully aware that retirements, injuries loss of form and some bolters will come through in the interim:

Prop: Cian Healy, Paddy McCalister, Tom Court, Mike Ross, Jamie Hagan, John Andress

Hooker: Rory Best, Sean Cronin, Mike Sherry

Lock: Paul O'Connell, Donncha O'Callaghan, Donncha Ryan, Dan Tuohy, Devin Toner, Ian Nagle

Back Row: Sean O'Brien, Stephen Ferris, Jamie Heaslip, Rhys Ruddock, Peter O'Mahoney, Dominic Ryan, Kevin McLaughlin

Scrum Half: Conor Murray, Eoin Reddan, Tomás O'Leary

Out Half: Johnny Sexton, Ian Keatley

Centre: Brian O'Driscoll, Nevin Spence, Fergus McFadden, Luke Marshall

Back Three: Keith Earls, Andrew Trimble, Tommy Bowe, Luke Fitzgerald, Rob Kearney, Felix Jones

I think this is a great squad to bring down South. it is the squad I would chose with a few exceptions.
I may move Bowe to 13 and take Gilroy instead of Marshall. Maybe.

I agree with the post earlier about us not developing tall locks, scrummaging props, groundhog 7's and hard running 12's. This needs to be fixed big time.

I think there should be a bit of a shake up whether guys retire or not. We should get lads playing who we think could be our future especially if there are midweek games.


Guys who really need to get game time for Ireland (as they could well be our future) are (IMO) Hagan, Cronin, Tuohy (in particular), Ryan, Ryan, Murray, Sexton and keatly, Spence, Bowe (at 13), Jones and Gilroy.

There are others who have already broken into the team at a young age and will be part of our future like Earls, SOB, Healy etc.

In my eyes the team should be something like this in the 2013/14 season (obviously negating injuries and form loss and bolters etc)

Healy-Best-Ross
POC-Ryan
SOB-Heaslip-Ryan
Murray
Sexton
Marshall-Spence
Earls-Jones-Bowe

McCallister-Hagan-Cronin-Tuohy-Ferris/Ruddock-Reddan-Keatly-Gilroy/Trimble

Leaving Ferris out is a big call. I cant see Marshall being ready by then if his lack of current exposure is anything to go by.

Ps: I don't think we need a shake up due to not getting into the semi's I think it was quite a good RWC for us for where we were before it, I just think the next goal is 2015 and we should be doing everything we can to ensure we are best suited for that.

Not a knee jerk reaction is what I'm just trying to say more a personal way of looking at things really

Stand I agree and disagree with you too .

I think Spence, so far this season has played much better at 12 than Marshall.

Marshall has lacked incision, ran too laterally and made too many forced offloads. The Spence/ Cave combo looks more threatening in attack and solid in defence. The concencus seems to be that Marshall will be the bets of the lot and I'm not disputing that but on this seasons form so far he's 3rd best of that trio. For me he's one for the future and not the present, in terms of the bigger games.

I think you are being harsh on Cave. I didn't really rate him that highly before but since he's returned from injury last season he's been fantastic, in attack and defence.

I agree the back row balance at Ulster is all wrong right now. I think we are trying too hard to accommodate Henry (whos playing his heart out to be fair) and Wannenburg and not thinking about the balance. Faloon seems to be down the pecking order right now which is a shame because he was key to a lot of good performances last year.

Rodders I'd say thats a fairly large exaggeration. He had a series of poor games while ROG had a series of good games. I would say its nonsense to suggest Kidney doesn't trust Sexton - he has played and delivered for Ireland in big games before like England and South Africa.

I'd be looking at this for the 6 Nations personally:

Healy, Best, Ross

Ryan, O'Connell

Ferris, Heaslip, O'Brien

Murray, Sexton

Spence, O'Driscoll

Earls, Jones, Bowe

Court, Cronin, O'Callaghan, Jennings, Reddan, O'Gara McFadden

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I just think the next goal is 2015 and we should be doing everything we can to ensure we are best suited for that.

It won't take 4 years to build a squad. I think this thinking ruins international rugby.

Why do you think it ruins international rugby?
I'm not saying keep chopping and changing a la France, I think we should just get some new faces in (with some old heads to help them) and then retain them for an extend period of time have faith in them.

Ps: I agree with your match day 22 for the 6n coming, although I'd put Bowe to 13 Bod to 12 and maybe Trimble on the wing

red_stag wrote:Rodders I'd say thats a fairly large exaggeration. He had a series of poor games while ROG had a series of good games.

I think that is pretty big generalisation Stag. In my opinion Sexton and ROG both did some very good things and very poor things over the past two months.

The question comes down to:

a) who you believe is the better fly half
b) which player is the better facilitator for the style of rugby you want to play and who fits in to the team better
c) what are the longer and shorter term implications by picking either player
d) who offers the better option from the bench.
e) the opposition

I think on a number of the above points Kidney got it wrong.

Because it means that teams are happy to lose a match to satisfy a tournament 4 years away - its not like resting a player for a big game in a few weeks. Ireland have about 10 games a year and I think the notion of picking with 2015 in mind is dreadfully poor.

Look at Healy, Ross, O'Brien, Murray, Earls, Sexton - its only taken about 18 months to get them upto speed. When we get to 2013 I want us to see us having a mind on the RWC.

However can you imagine Ireland didn't to drop all the older players in 2008-2009. We'd probably have had no Grandslam. We play our best team in each game. Once the Lions tour is over we reevaluate and concentrate on RWC 2015.

roddersm wrote:
a) who you believe is the better fly half - Sexton
b) which player is the better facilitator for the style of rugby you want to play and who fits in to the team better - Depends on Oppositon
c) what are the longer and shorter term implications by picking either player - Irrelevant in a RWC Year
d) who offers the better option from the bench - O'Gara
e) the opposition - See point two

I think on a number of the above points Kidney got it wrong.

I've no doubt ROG was picked as Sexton had been kicking poorly enough, ROG had done ok and that he thought he'd be better against Wales. Clearly he got it wrong but I think its a big exaggeartion to say Sexton isn't trusted by Irish management.

Well stag if I was hauled off after 60 min of every game and dropped two games into a tournament despite helping the team win both games I wouldn't feel like the management had much faith in me.

Then I suggest you have confidence issues. Rugby matches are won by squads not by #10s. Sexton had a poor kicking record and a decision was made to play O'Gara. Sexton has been given lots of chances by Ireland in the past where he did well on the highest stage and I'm sure it will come again. O'Gara had a dreadful 80 minutes against Wales; but had we lost there would be calls that Kidney should have gone for the more in form player.

It certaintly (and I know it isn't what your saying) would be one of the stupidest things I've ever heard in relation to rugby to suggest that in a World Cup knockout match we should pick a guy based on the face he is young enough to be around in the future.

I suggest we leave O'Gara v Sexton - it isn't only thing to discuss regarding Ireland.

red_stag wrote:Then I suggest you have confidence issues.

Or a persecution complex .

Had a look at the game against Wales Red_Stag and first of all O'Gara only played about 55 minutes. Secondly he actually had a good game for those 55 minutes.

DOC drives me absolutely mad. He can still deliver but his consistency levels are so poor. He was outstanding v england and aus but laboured in so many other games over the last year.

Is Tuohy fit again? He certainly had a bit of gas and dynamism. Realistically Nagle will be a lucky to see game-time this year at Munster despite his promise especially if Mick ODriscoll is still knocking around. Its a pity Nagle cannot be loaned out for a year. Outside of 6 nations times i would guess he will not figure much

Mc Loughlin to me would be the ideal person to convert to a 2nd row. At 6ft5 he is the tallest of our blindsides. Between SOB,Ruddock,Dom Ryan Leinster have enough options at 6.

Ok Stag I see your point and it does make a lot more sense, yet I still want to see some younger guys taking up the mantle sooner rather than later but I think that has to do with how are team is right now, for instance Darcy should not play in green again IMO even though he did play well against Italy.
I'd much prefer to see McF, Bowe or Spence in the centre with BOD for a while.
Darcy doesn't add anything to the future plans and not much when actually playing either

Tuohy is playing very well for Ulster Dave. He looks very dynamic and physical and has been calling the lineouts in Mullers absence.

I think he, DOC and Ryan should be fighting it out to partner O'Connell next season. O'Connell is still the king on current form but I don't think DOC should be an automatic starter anymore.

Personally I'd like to see Touhy in there for his dynamism but I've been reasonably impressed with Ryan over the past few months too.

Also: I'd still like to see that team travel to NZ although maybe with Gilroy instead of Marshall and with Bowe as an option at centre.

Tuohy is a monster. I think he'd do really well for us regarding the choke tackle.

red_stag wrote:I'd be looking at this for the 6 Nations personally:
Healy, Best, Ross
Ryan, O'Connell
Ferris, Heaslip, O'Brien
Murray, Sexton
Spence, O'Driscoll
Earls, Jones, Bowe

Court, Cronin, O'Callaghan, Jennings, Reddan, O'Gara McFadden

Good team Stag. We can argue about one or two names but the sentiment is right.

I too don't see the need to re-invent the wheel, by making too many changes. For me the main criterion for Ireland selection is that a player is playing first choice for his province - age is largely irrelevant. This RWC has shown in players like Ledesma and Thorn that if a player's good enough they're young enough. Equally it has shown through players like Warburton and North that if a player's good enough they're old enough. The common denominator is that the best players are picked irrespective of age.

So it is up to the understudy players at the Irish provinces to usurp those ahead of them by virture of playing better, age shouldn't be a consideration. If Keatley isn't better than ROG then why should Munster/Ireland prefer him? (If he is better and still isn't being picked then they should ditch the coach.) High level performance is only achieved through the highest level of pressure being applied by the competition for places, and if that pressure has to come from a thirtysomething so what?

It is also nonsense to suggest that Ireland trawl the world to unearth IQ props and opensides. Mike Ross wasn't test quality when he left Munster but through his dedication has made himself test class (as did Hayes before him). Similarly Warburton wasn't always an openside, he has made himself one through hard work and dedication. Players need to have the raw material but the techniques can be developed - that's what coaches are for aren't they?

Ireland need to go to NZ to be competitive with the best group of players they can muster chosen on individual merit rather than age.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Ok Stag I see your point and it does make a lot more sense, yet I still want to see some younger guys taking up the mantle sooner rather than later

IMO we're seeing this happen. Felix Jones and Conor Murray both forced their way into the Summer warm up games. Keith Earls, Cian Healy, Sean O'Brien, Rob Kearney have all done great work in forcing their way into the 1st team.

I think that Spence needs to retain his place when Wallace gets back from RWC. If he does that then he plays 6 Nations. I really think Keatley can oust ROG from the Munster starting team by the end of the season. Mike Sherry should be targetting the Munster starting shirt and so should Donnacha Ryan - I'd expect him to be making the #4 shirt his absolute season priority. At Leinster, I'd be hoping that Hagan is quietly confident of ousting Ross within 2 years of coaching under Feek. Stephen Archer and Paddy McAllister should be aiming for starting spots in the HEC Pool stages.

These guys need ambition and to maybe not show as much respect to the internationals.

Does anyone in the Emerald Isle rate James Downey??

Not nearly highly enought to bring him into the team.

red_stag wrote:
I'd be looking at this for the 6 Nations personally:

Healy, Best, Ross
Ryan, O'Connell
Ferris, Heaslip, O'Brien
Murray, Sexton
Spence, O'Driscoll
Earls, Jones, Bowe

Court, Cronin, O'Callaghan, Jennings, Reddan, O'Gara McFadden

Thats pretty good stag. I'll see that team and raise you:

Healy, Best, Ross
Ryan, O'Connell(c)
Ferris, Heaslip, O'Brien
Murray, Sexton
Spence, Cave
Trimble, Kearney, Bowe

Court(Feck is there no one else??), Strauss, Touhy, D. Wallace, Reddan, Keatley, Earls

The Great Aukster wrote:

red_stag wrote:I'd be looking at this for the 6 Nations personally:
Healy, Best, Ross
Ryan, O'Connell
Ferris, Heaslip, O'Brien
Murray, Sexton
Spence, O'Driscoll
Earls, Jones, Bowe

Court, Cronin, O'Callaghan, Jennings, Reddan, O'Gara McFadden

Good team Stag. We can argue about one or two names but the sentiment is right.

I too don't see the need to re-invent the wheel, by making too many changes. For me the main criterion for Ireland selection is that a player is playing first choice for his province - age is largely irrelevant. This RWC has shown in players like Ledesma and Thorn that if a player's good enough they're young enough. Equally it has shown through players like Warburton and North that if a player's good enough they're old enough. The common denominator is that the best players are picked irrespective of age.

So it is up to the understudy players at the Irish provinces to usurp those ahead of them by virture of playing better, age shouldn't be a consideration. If Keatley isn't better than ROG then why should Munster/Ireland prefer him? (If he is better and still isn't being picked then they should ditch the coach.) High level performance is only achieved through the highest level of pressure being applied by the competition for places, and if that pressure has to come from a thirtysomething so what?

It is also nonsense to suggest that Ireland trawl the world to unearth IQ props and opensides. Mike Ross wasn't test quality when he left Munster but through his dedication has made himself test class (as did Hayes before him). Similarly Warburton wasn't always an openside, he has made himself one through hard work and dedication. Players need to have the raw material but the techniques can be developed - that's what coaches are for aren't they?

Ireland need to go to NZ to be competitive with the best group of players they can muster chosen on individual merit rather than age.

I think its a fairly even debate... but I'm more or less with Stag and Aukster on this with maybe one/two more young'uns in there. There are issues regarding the way the small 4 province system can hold back young players from the very top level for too long. But there are positives too. Overall I think Ireland's "16th man" in most of their games over the last decade, has been their experience and their levels of consistency at international level (I mean this in the broadest sense - not in a game-to-game sense). It was not always like this... and I'd hate to see us going back to the days where we could be hammered by the best one day, lose to an experienced minnow the next and give a "gutsy" performance the next. That just breeds inconsistency for the big important games.

Youth will have its day. Some of the current squad definitely have to go sooner rather than later... but, for the benefit of both, I'd like to see the best of the young guns playing with the best of the old guard. Simples.

red_stag wrote:Not nearly highly enought to bring him into the team.

Perhaps fair, but not even the squad? I know his distribution skills aren't dazzling, but he's been pretty decent and consistent at Northampton now for some time, and would give that mighty back row of yours a good target in the backs.

I haven't been wowed by McFadden at centre I must say. Need to see more of Marshall and Spence. Spence looks to have something about him. Fiery sort of centre. I wonder whether Trimble might slot in at 13 at some stage once BOD is put out to pasture.

Nos, the best of the young guns need to earn their stripes.

Healy, Earls, O'Brien, Murray, Fitzgerald, Kearney, Ferris, Heaslip, Jones were all jettisoned into the national team at a young age because they earned it based on their provincial displays.

Nevin Spence looks to be next in line for this but I won't be convinced until I see him keep Paddy Wallace out of the side.

Two somewhat related/unrelated questions?

Does anyone think there is a place for Carr in future Irish 22's?
Also, next Irish backs coach?

funnyExiledScot wrote: I wonder whether Trimble might slot in at 13 at some stage once BOD is put out to pasture.

Oh Jesus don't even joke about that Earls, Bowe, McFadden, Cave, Spence and Barnes would all be playing at 13 before Trimble.

Not a Trimble fan either then! He looks a fast and powerful runner to me. Certainly a better bet for my money at 13 than Earls. Earls is a back three runner in my book.

You shouldn't move Bowe from the wing. His ability to come off the wing and pick lines is what makes him such a potent weapon.

funnyExiledScot wrote:He looks a fast and powerful runner to me.

Thats because he is. We prefer lightweight and slow in midfield over here so he has no chance.

I'm a big fan of Trimble but a fan of him as a winger. I wouldn't move Bowe either.

As I see it Earls, Trimble and Bowe are wingers not centres.

At centre we have the current crop - P.Wallace, G.Darcy and B.O'Driscoll. We then have the younger generation of Nevin Spence, Darren Cave, Fergus McFadden and Danny Barnes.

I think Bowe would make a great 13 for us. He'd add some much needed pace in the centres and he is constantly running support lines which is great to see.

Really don't want earls at 13 but can see DK putting him there after BOD goes

Spence is not effective at 12.. he won't be competing with Wallace, he will be competing with Cave imo. I think Ulster have been less creative with the Spence-Cave combo personally and I would prefer to see Wallace/Marshall and Spence/Cave playing together.

With regards to Jennings being a good enough international 7, I totally disagree. Up against the likes of Pocock, McCaw, Warburton etc he would get totally dominated. Just my opinion.

As said above Warburton wasn't a 7 to begin with, he was an 8 for the U20s. But working with the likes of Martyn Williams and developing the skills necessary got him to where he is now. Perhaps Ireland should do the same with the academy players. Jordi Murphy in the Leinster academy would be an example, he could be working under Jennings?

I think it not just a case of putting a young player with an old one it very much depends on the type of personality of that older player, some are good teachers some are not.

I agree with Curry and also the type of player the young guy is to begin with.

Tough trying to coach someone in to a role they aren't a natural too, although we have seen centres become wingers and locks into backrows so stranger things have happened.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Spence is not effective at 12.. he won't be competing with Wallace, he will be competing with Cave imo. I think Ulster have been less creative with the Spence-Cave combo personally and I would prefer to see Wallace/Marshall and Spence/Cave playing together.

boooooo!

But like I said with Warburton he was a very good all around back rower during the junior world cup, I remember watching him as it was the year that most of the matches were played at Ravenhill.

I'm sure one of the coaches (probably one of the Blues coaches) told him he was too small for number 8 but he could become a world class 7 if he focused on his fetching skills. It is much easier to say this to a young academy player than to a player who is already in his mid-twenties. Hence why I think coaches should be aiming to develop 7s in the academies.

And sorry rodders, it's the truth! Spence is not as effective at 12 and isn't as good as Wallace/Marshall there anyways. However he is the best 13 imo, so he should be starting there.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
And sorry rodders, it's the truth! Spence is not as effective at 12 and isn't as good as Wallace/Marshall there anyways. However he is the best 13 imo, so he should be starting there.

it's your version of the truth rory! I'm sure you're in the majority! Spence and Cave all the way!

I actually rate Cave a lot, its just I rate Spence higher and want them both challenging for the 13 shirt. Do you think Cave will ever make it for Ireland rodders? I am not sure he has the pace to play 13 (though with BOD there atm I'm not sure that is a good argument).

I hope so Rory. I didn't used to rate him that highly but I've been really impressed with him since he returned last season. He's deceptively strong and quick and scores a lot of tries. His defence is solid and seems smart with decent skills too.

Yeah I think he has something to offer Ireland if he keeps playing the way he is and can stay injury free.

Interesting discussion after the war.

I see that O'Malley has not really been mentioned by anyone. I think he along with Nevin Spence, Danny Barnes, Felix Jones, Luke Marshall, Ian Madigan, Fionn Carr, Andrew Conway should all be trialled over the coming year. New blood is needed. And the old guard needs to be given a shake up.

Up front, Cronin, Wilkinson, Hagan, Nagle, Ruddock, should be some of the newer names appearing on test team sheets.

Of all these, I think Barnes and Spence are going to be the stars for the future. There's something about both of them that is exciting to watch, and you have a sense that they might do something unexpected and brilliant in a game.

Yes I think It could become a very interessing battle between O'Mallay, Barnes, Spence and Cave for the 13 jersey.

Gleeson in Munster has looked good to me as well and I think he is also a 13?

Pot Hale wrote:
I see that O'Malley has not really been mentioned by anyone. I think he along with Nevin Spence, Danny Barnes, Felix Jones, Luke Marshall, Ian Madigan, Fionn Carr, Andrew Conway should all be trialled over the coming year. New blood is needed. And the old guard needs to be given a shake up.

Yeah sorry I haven't forgot about O'Malley, I just haven't watched much of Leinsters games this season so far. I hear Fitzgerald is playing well at 12? How is Conway going?

Why on Earth would we use Conway. Our back 3 is fine Trimble Bowe Earls Kearney Jones. All playing well. All quite young. Conway rarely if ever features for Leinster. Thats just a MAJOR knee jerk reaction.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I actually rate Cave a lot, its just I rate Spence higher and want them both challenging for the 13 shirt. Do you think Cave will ever make it for Ireland rodders? I am not sure he has the pace to play 13 (though with BOD there atm I'm not sure that is a good argument).

I was at the Ireland v Connacht which Cave played in - he is a very good player - very good decision maker. His lack of pace was very obvious though (in comparison to McFadden & Keatley for example). He made a break at one stage and he should have been able to finish it, but he was caught.

Tony Ward has an article about the future - most interesting picks were that of Luke fitz & Earls in the centre (along with Spence and a few others in contention). And no place for Keatley - Just Sexton & Jackson.

TONY WARD"s POSSIBLE IRELAND SQUAD FOR ENGLAND 2015

Full-backs: Rob Kearney, Felix Jones
WINGS: Tommy Bowe, Andrew Trimble, Fionn Carr, Andrew Conway

Centres: Luke Fitzgerald, Keith Earls, Fergus McFadden, Nevin Spence

Out-halves: Jonny Sexton, Paddy Jackson

Scrum-halves: Conor Murray, Tomas O'Leary

Props: Brett Wilkinson, Cian Healy, Mike Ross, Jamie Hagan

Hookers: Rory Best, Sean Cronin, Damien Varley

Second-rows: Paul O'Connell, Devin Toner, Ian Nagle, Donnacha Ryan

Back-rows: Stephen Ferris, Sean O'Brien, Rhys Ruddock, Peter O'Mahony, Jamie Heaslip.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/world-cup/comment/tony-ward-no-chance-of-ireland-shakeup-2901618.html

You would need more then 2 scrum halfs but other then that its fairly realistic, would argue with Fitz, Carr and Ross(too old then) and maybe a few others though.

That's another thing that comes to mind.. when I first saw Spence at 12 and Cave at 13 I thought why not switch them around? Cave seems to be the smarter player, good at breaking the gain line and his decision making is great. I think he could make a great 12, and his lack of pace would not matter here.

With Spence at 13 he can use his pace and power to his full potential. Both players would be allowed to play to their strengths a lot more I think. I am not sure if this would ever happen though, especially with Wallace returning. Rodders, your opinion on this switch would be most appreciated

Hi there just posted on the heated postmortem thread that it appears O'Gara is not retiring..will be interesting to see if young Keatley displaces him for the hec games.
Having watched the young pretenders in the pro12 only Madigan and O'Mahoney have stood out for me so far. Spence has potential but is prone to mistakes. O'Malley has loads to do before he will make the hec squad. Ruddock should be there or therabouts for the 6ns and I think Sherry down in Munster looks the making of a top class hooker.

For scrumhalf I wouldn't discount O'Leary as some seem to be doing. It will be interesting to see if he can regain his form from 2009 as I think he is a good option