Lions Tour 2013

by 21st Century Schizoid Man Tue 11 Oct 2011, 5:41 pm

First topic message reminder :

Will there be any Scots or English players on the tour. Richie Gray and Ben Foden maybe but thats about it -well maybe Kelly Brown and Ross Ford. Sad

by Irish Curry Tue 11 Oct 2011, 10:12 pm

I would say I am a young rugby fan and when I saw my first Lions match I was hooked for life. Now unfortunitly I dont have sky but I still would watch them with friends or where ever. All of the rugby people I know around my age in their teens who follow the Lions like a club team and always are wearing the jerseys. I would say we get the Lions.

by mystiroakey Tue 11 Oct 2011, 10:14 pm

Gatts wrote:its called the British Lions for a reason...how is that patronising? It is rugby history and tradition, the last great touring side. if you have neither in rugby you can't appreciate the significance of it

I think i have explained quite fully about why I THINK IT is patronizing but on the flipside its great that you see it as a tradition and want it to continue.

by Casartelli Tue 11 Oct 2011, 10:18 pm

Gatts wrote:its called the British Lions for a reason...how is that patronising? It is rugby history and tradition, the last great touring side. if you have neither in rugby you can't appreciate the significance of it

I think they're the British & Irish Lions?

And that in itself makes little sense nowadays - why include Ireland but exclude France and Italy? We're all in the same 6N tournament.

In sporting terms it's irrelevant - the biggest rugby playing nation (England), combining with small countries to go on tour? England were the best team in the world in 2003. When they joined forces with the celtic countries in 2005 they were annihilated in NZ.

I totally understand that a few thousand people enjoy the trip - but you can visit these places at any time - they're much better when not over-run with Brits (and Irish) anyway.

by Gatts Tue 11 Oct 2011, 10:19 pm

Casartelli wrote:
Gatts wrote:its called the British Lions for a reason...how is that patronising? It is rugby history and tradition, the last great touring side. if you have neither in rugby you can't appreciate the significance of it

I think they're the British & Irish Lions?

And that in itself makes little sense nowadays - why include Ireland but exclude France and Italy? We're all in the same 6N tournament.

In sporting terms it's irrelevant - the biggest rugby playing nation (England), combining with small countries to go on tour? England were the best team in the world in 2003. When they joined forces with the celtic countries in 2005 they were annihilated in NZ.

I totally understand that a few thousand people enjoy the trip - but you can visit these places at any time - they're much better when not over-run with Brits (and Irish) anyway.

Have you ever been on a lions tour?

by mystiroakey Tue 11 Oct 2011, 10:21 pm

Irish they are many out there that really dont get the lions, we all know that- and there are reasons for that, some find it hard to relate or understand why we bother.

I want NH teams to be at the top of the rankings- we are not. If we were miles ahead of the SH teams would the lions still exist in todays money is all world?

No because it wouldnt be a contest.

by wygart Tue 11 Oct 2011, 10:26 pm

by the time 2005 came round England were a diminished force anyway with Wales being 6N champions. Lots of the England old guard had retired.

I for one love the Lions. It is a great tradition and true demonstration of how rugby brings people together and the bonds that last.

Despite being hammered by NZ in 2005 I remember getting up painfully early and stumbling down to my local for a fry-up and cuppa (far too early to drink) and cheering on the Lions every game with blind optimis because its a great rugby spectacle and tradition. It's also a great chance to recognise and support the quality players from the other home unions in a way that we never would otherwise at international level showing the universal spirit of rugby.

Long may they continue!

by Casartelli Tue 11 Oct 2011, 10:32 pm

Gatts wrote:
Casartelli wrote:
Gatts wrote:its called the British Lions for a reason...how is that patronising? It is rugby history and tradition, the last great touring side. if you have neither in rugby you can't appreciate the significance of it

I think they're the British & Irish Lions?

And that in itself makes little sense nowadays - why include Ireland but exclude France and Italy? We're all in the same 6N tournament.

In sporting terms it's irrelevant - the biggest rugby playing nation (England), combining with small countries to go on tour? England were the best team in the world in 2003. When they joined forces with the celtic countries in 2005 they were annihilated in NZ.

I totally understand that a few thousand people enjoy the trip - but you can visit these places at any time - they're much better when not over-run with Brits (and Irish) anyway.

Have you ever been on a lions tour?

Never been interested. Lot of cash to spend on something that the SH teams treat as a warm-up for the Tri-nations.

I could see the merit/appeal in a 'Celtic Lions' or a 6N 'Dream Team', and the Pacific Island touring team is a great idea as it helps to develop small rugby nations.

But the current Lions format in this day and age? Don't get it at all. Not in rugby terms or sporting terms in general. And geo-politically it makes no sense.

But totally appreciate that it's a great excuse for a holiday with the lads.

by mystiroakey Tue 11 Oct 2011, 10:32 pm

Sadly i think the only reasons the lions does continue is because there are better SH teams out there. they love the lions games- it brings them bags of money, but if we had the better teams and lions games just battered them into another time zone who would watch the games?

by wales606 Tue 11 Oct 2011, 10:37 pm

mystiroakey wrote:I think many of us(especially younger or newer fans to rugby) dont really get the lions, because the games arnt that important to us- there isnt much media or press pushing the games to us- its harder to relate to the team. I personally feel its abit patronizing that we should have to play the best of all of us to give one of the tri nations a game. I understand why you lot love it though and if i got into this game and played for a team from a young age i would probally feel the same.

Im 18 and I love the Lions, and the concepts behind it.

The 2009 games were some of the best i'd seen - and with less pressure on a Lions team, and less disappointment if they lose it is far more enjoyable to watch than Wales game.

by Guest Tue 11 Oct 2011, 10:40 pm

The second Lions test 2009 was and still stands as the most physically and intense game of Rugby played,
that game set the bench mark for future test matches on the level that can be achieved.

by mystiroakey Tue 11 Oct 2011, 10:41 pm

"and with less pressure on a Lions team, and less disappointment if they lose it is far more enjoyable to watch than Wales game"

firstly if and this is a big IF wales can become the best team on the planet then you may change your opinions.

secondly your above comment is sort of the problem with the lions.For sport to succeed it has to be in a competitive envioroment, and appeal to the masses- The lions sounds like its only for the hardcore on a jolly

by nathan Tue 11 Oct 2011, 10:44 pm

viewtothegym wrote:England rugby are in serious lack of quality players,
well actually that's not a fair statement, England are in serious lack of quality coached players.
Look at Adam Jones a fat prop who was unfit and got a few pastings at scrum time in his early international career,but some good coaching and now the guy would be welcome to play for any club region or province in the world,

Adam still has weak sides to his game,for example i don't think he carries the ball enough,
but the right coaching has drawn the best out of him.

The longer England convince themselves that they are just a few clicks away from being world beater the more it will hurt them because they must find some quality coaches who actually have a clue.

just as well nobody cares what you think...

by wales606 Tue 11 Oct 2011, 10:45 pm

mystiroakey wrote:"and with less pressure on a Lions team, and less disappointment if they lose it is far more enjoyable to watch than Wales game"

firstly if and this is a big IF wales can become the best team on the planet then you may change your opinions.

secondly your above comment is sort of the problem with the lions.For sport to succeed it has to be in a competitive envioroment, and appeal to the masses- The lions sounds like its only for the hardcore on a jolly

Not really,

I supported the Lions and was gutted when O'Gara ruined it Wink

. However, its nice to know that the loss isnt just a representation of your own country, which make the right balance between the excitement of a neutral game and the nervous anticipation of a game involving your club/country.

by Gatts Tue 11 Oct 2011, 10:45 pm

mystiroakey wrote:"and with less pressure on a Lions team, and less disappointment if they lose it is far more enjoyable to watch than Wales game"

firstly if and this is a big IF wales can become the best team on the planet then you may change your opinions.

secondly your above comment is sort of the problem with the lions.For sport to succeed it has to be in a competitive envioroment, and appeal to the masses- The lions sounds like its only for the hardcore on a jolly

How long have you been a rugby fan oakey and have you ever played the game?

by Guest Tue 11 Oct 2011, 10:47 pm

Nathan be a good little boy,my opinion is just a valued as yours kiss

by Taffineastbourne Tue 11 Oct 2011, 10:48 pm

How about a Lions cub team of under 20's to tour Rumania,Georgia,Spain and Portugal.This again would raise the profile in these areas and give some early recognition for our countries' talented youngsters

by nathan Tue 11 Oct 2011, 10:49 pm

I love the Lions tours, it's great to shout for all our home nations.

by Gatts Tue 11 Oct 2011, 10:49 pm

Taffineastbourne wrote:How about a Lions cub team of under 20's to tour Rumania,Georgia,Spain and Portugal.This again would raise the profile in these areas and give some early recognition for our counyties' talented youngsters

great idea....funding?

by nathan Tue 11 Oct 2011, 10:51 pm

viewtothegym wrote:Nathan be a good little boy,my opinion is just a valued as yours

It would be but you've been a serial wummer in the past so your opinion gets knocked down a few levels!

for the record, i'm not a little boy...

by Taffineastbourne Tue 11 Oct 2011, 10:52 pm

Gatts wrote:
Taffineastbourne wrote:How about a Lions cub team of under 20's to tour Rumania,Georgia,Spain and Portugal.This again would raise the profile in these areas and give some early recognition for our counyties' talented youngsters

great idea....funding?

Gatts,I am an ideas fella.I dont do details! Wink

by mystiroakey Tue 11 Oct 2011, 10:53 pm

been a fan for about 20 years i suppose. I only ever used to play occasionally at lunch breaks at school when a friend used to bring a ball in(it wasnt played at my schools). I admit i am not the biggest fan or most knowledgable poster, but i still love the game- but have no idea about the history or passion that exisits as i never played for school or a club.

lol i have a feeling that i am walking into something here. Your gonna be using this against me i can tell- anyway i dont care.

by Taffineastbourne Tue 11 Oct 2011, 11:01 pm

mystiroakey wrote:been a fan for about 20 years i suppose. I only ever used to play occasionally at lunch breaks at school when a friend used to bring a ball in(it wasnt played at my schools). I admit i am not the biggest fan or most knowledgable poster, but i still love the game- but have no idea about the history or passion that exisits as i never played for school or a club.

lol i have a feeling that i am walking into something here. Your gonna be using this against me i can tell- anyway i dont care.

Your journey does not matter.You are here now and you care about the game.Good enough for me.No snobbery in Rugby.Check out the history if you get a chance.Every country has had top blokes play for them.The values and ethos,the comeraderie and friendship makes our game special.To see the Russians having a go has been one of the most pleasing aspects of this WC after Wales performing so well of course!

by mystiroakey Tue 11 Oct 2011, 11:02 pm

ok i just read in some article about the sanzar nations basically winning in getting back more money from the irb during world cup years that GG posted. It mentioned that rugby union has oylimpic status. If we are going to be playing oylimpuc games then i am all for the british lions(this may be a major stumbling block though with the fact that ireland are also involved)

so even though i feel its a good idea because the lions may actually get some really competitve commerical games. it may actually be the end of the british and irish lions?

thoughts?

by Taffineastbourne Tue 11 Oct 2011, 11:09 pm

mystiroakey wrote:ok i just read in some article about the sanzar nations basically winning in getting back more money from the irb during world cup years that GG posted. It mentioned that rugby union has oylimpic status. If we are going to be playing oylimpuc games then i am all for the british lions(this may be a major stumbling block though with the fact that ireland are also involved)

so even though i feel its a good idea because the lions may actually get some really competitve commerical games. it may actually be the end of the british and irish lions?

thoughts?

Sorry,there appears to be some sort of scambler.What are you trying to say?

by mystiroakey Tue 11 Oct 2011, 11:12 pm

i am tired it doesnt make much sense lol.

I take it that rugby is going to be an oylimpic sport.

therefore britain may in the future play as one in the oylimpics

the fact that we may end up with a british team could kill the britsh and irish lions

by mystiroakey Tue 11 Oct 2011, 11:17 pm

ok lol its the 7's that is in the next oylimpics Doh

nite

by Hound_of_Harrow Tue 11 Oct 2011, 11:46 pm

"its called the British Lions for a reason...how is that patronising?"

There's a few Irish folk I know might have a bit to say about that...

There's nigh on another two seasons of NH rugby to be played before thinking about a Lions' squad. This article is deja vu from 2008 leading up to the SA tour.

by tomathy Wed 12 Oct 2011, 11:51 am

mystiroakey wrote:
Gatts wrote:its called the British Lions for a reason...how is that patronising? It is rugby history and tradition, the last great touring side. if you have neither in rugby you can't appreciate the significance of it

I think i have explained quite fully about why I THINK IT is patronizing but on the flipside its great that you see it as a tradition and want it to continue.

Well you've made one point which is that we should have good enough teams to face the tri-nations sides without joining together. I think a brief look at the history of Eng, Ire, Wal and Sco away tours to SANZAR countries pretty much answers that one.

In any case, I don't see who is patronising whom here. It's not as if SANZAR are forcing us to do it - The home nations are all signed up to the idea, and I doubt the players feel patronised that they are forming a team with players from other nations. Players see it as the ultimate honour to get called up for it.

It's not a question of us having "to play the best of all of us to give one of the tri nations a game". It's a bigger thing than just doing anything to create a team that can win against them.

by tomathy Wed 12 Oct 2011, 11:54 am

Casartelli wrote:In sporting terms it's irrelevant - the biggest rugby playing nation (England), combining with small countries to go on tour? England were the best team in the world in 2003. When they joined forces with the celtic countries in 2005 they were annihilated in NZ.

We weren't the best in the world in 2005 though, were we? Not even close.

I still don't really see what you mean by irrelevant here. What relevance do other sporting events have that the Lions is somehow missing out on?

by Islingtonv2 Wed 12 Oct 2011, 12:28 pm

No doubt if you picked the team right now you'd have precisely zero English players in it and very few on the dirt track team either. However the Lions is a very long way off and things will change drastically between now and then. In 2007 who would honestly have had Croft, Philips, Roberts, Monye etc in their '09 first test team? Very few i'd say.

Do we even know who's likely to coach the team?

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 12 Oct 2011, 1:22 pm

Comapred the the B teams the Lions nations usually send down South for the summer the Lions is a huge event and far more interesting as a spectacle.
Its also a lot more relevant than 90% of the world cup games.

The players genuinly care about it too, more than they do friendlies like the AIs or Barbarians games.

by Pot Noodle Miner Wed 12 Oct 2011, 1:34 pm

if a Lions 22 were picked today it would probably be
Jenkins, Best, Jones
AW Jones, O'Connell
O'Brien, Heaslip, Warburton
Phillips, Priestland
Roberts, O'Driscoll
Bowe, Foden, North

subs: Ford, Murray, Charteris, Faletau, Youngs, Hook, Tulaigi

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 12 Oct 2011, 1:43 pm

Pot Noodle Miner wrote:if a Lions 22 were picked today it would probably be
Jenkins, Best, Jones
AW Jones, O'Connell
O'Brien, Heaslip, Warburton
Phillips, Priestland
Roberts, O'Driscoll
~~Bowe~~ Ashton, Foden, North

subs: Ford, Murray, Charteris, Faletau, Youngs, Hook, Tulaigi

Amazing how half the side gets to be Irish despite them going out at the same stage of the comeptition as England with an identical record, and being p*ss poor for most of the last 18 months. Really though its hard to seriously argue with most of that side (Id maybe have Healy in as well as Ashton)

by Islingtonv2 Wed 12 Oct 2011, 2:12 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Pot Noodle Miner wrote:if a Lions 22 were picked today it would probably be
Jenkins, Best, Jones
AW Jones, O'Connell
O'Brien, Heaslip, Warburton
Phillips, Priestland
Roberts, O'Driscoll
~~Bowe~~ Ashton, Foden, North

subs: Ford, Murray, Charteris, Faletau, Youngs, Hook, Tulaigi

Amazing how half the side gets to be Irish despite them going out at the same stage of the comeptition as England with an identical record, and being p*ss poor for most of the last 18 months. Really though its hard to seriously argue with most of that side (Id maybe have Healy in as well as Ashton)

Probably means that Ireland are less than the sum of their parts. Put another way there coach and management are p!ss poor.

by Thomond Wed 12 Oct 2011, 2:15 pm

Heaslip wouldn't be in that team. Faletau should be there. BOD wouldalso be doubtful. Best deserves to be in there. You could make the case for Charteris after his performance on Sunday. I'd have maybe 2-3 Irish in a Lions team at the moment.

by bedfordwelsh Wed 12 Oct 2011, 2:27 pm

I would put Charteris ahead of AWJ and Lydiate ahead of SOB who has been playing 7 not 6.

That said I am still a big fan of the killer B's (Brown, Beattie & Barclay) as I said on another thread the back row battle for these slots leading upto Lions selection will be huge.

by Rory_Gallagher Wed 12 Oct 2011, 2:39 pm

A backrow of O'Brien, Warburton and Faletau would be pretty small though. All 6"2, would suffer in the lineouts. At current form Haskell would possibly be the 8, Heaslip is not playing well. Come 2013 though the likes of Peter O'Mahoney could shine for Ireland and be picked to tour.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 12 Oct 2011, 2:47 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:That said I am still a big fan of the killer B's (Brown, Beattie & Barclay) as I said on another thread the back row battle for these slots leading upto Lions selection will be huge.

Certainly plenty of backrow candidates I can think of from all 4 countries:
Wales

Wales: Faletau, Lydiate, McCusker, Tipuric, Turnbull, Warburton
Braveheart

Scotland: Barclay, Beattie, Brown, Denton, Harley, Rennie, Strokosch
Leprechaun

Ireland: Ferris, Heaslip, O'Brien, Ruddock, Ryan
rose

England: Croft, Haskell, Wood
...and I'm pretty sure I'll be corrected as to who I am missing! Wink

by Irish Curry Wed 12 Oct 2011, 3:00 pm

Peter O'Mahoney from Munster, what a player he could be! Very Happy

Ryan will be playing second row by then as well.

by bedfordwelsh Wed 12 Oct 2011, 3:03 pm

AsLong,

Thats a pretty comprehensive list, sure there maybe a few young English guns that will put hand up in coming 18 months or so.

Also pretty sure Ben Morgan will be in mix in whatever colour he chooses.

Versatlity as usual could prove useful with players having ability to cover 6&8, 7&6 back row and 2nd row etc.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 12 Oct 2011, 3:19 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:A backrow of O'Brien, Warburton and Faletau would be pretty small though. All 6"2, would suffer in the lineouts. At current form Haskell would possibly be the 8, Heaslip is not playing well. Come 2013 though the likes of Peter O'Mahoney could shine for Ireland and be picked to tour.

Gah haskell is playinmg well as a flanker ...the problem is hes been wearing an 8 shirt and screwing up the bits of the job specific to that role. He maybe desrves a bench spot in a lions side due to his versatility but shouldnt be starting 8 in game of pool let alone a lions side.

by Metal Tiger Wed 12 Oct 2011, 3:22 pm

Taffineastbourne wrote:After the "English" Flutey went last time I would hate to see any more of their hired guns getting selected.If you are to maintain the British and Irish Lions surely it should do what it says on the label.

Yes... you should send Falateau and George North Instead.....

Oh hang on....

Doh

by Metal Tiger Wed 12 Oct 2011, 3:33 pm

mystiroakey wrote:whats everyones thoughts of making it a lions v tri-nations mix?

now that is something i would love to see

They tried it once if I remember rightly... called it the ANZAC tour.... it was a disaster.

Too much politics and infighting... NZRFU style!

by tomathy Wed 12 Oct 2011, 4:00 pm

Metal Tiger wrote:
Taffineastbourne wrote:After the "English" Flutey went last time I would hate to see any more of their hired guns getting selected.If you are to maintain the British and Irish Lions surely it should do what it says on the label.

Yes... you should send Falateau and ~~George North~~ Instead.....

Oh hang on....

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 12 Oct 2011, 4:04 pm

Metal Tiger wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:whats everyones thoughts of making it a lions v tri-nations mix?

now that is something i would love to see

They tried it once if I remember rightly... called it the ANZAC tour.... it was a disaster.

Too much politics and infighting... NZRFU style!

Isnt that the England cricket side?

by bedfordwelsh Wed 12 Oct 2011, 6:43 pm

The Lions played one test against an ANZAC side end of the 89 Series I think didn't they.

by Guest Wed 12 Oct 2011, 8:11 pm

I think the Lions has had its day now. I used to enjoy it, but with professionalism, it doesn't really work any more. Like the Baa Baas it just tends to clog up the fixture lists. It ruins any continuity for national sides who have a fair few Lions and also damages the clubs/regions/provinces chances for a fair while afterwards.

Scrap it. Players are already putting themselves through too much.

by Taffineastbourne Wed 12 Oct 2011, 8:27 pm

Metal Tiger wrote:
Taffineastbourne wrote:After the "English" Flutey went last time I would hate to see any more of their hired guns getting selected.If you are to maintain the British and Irish Lions surely it should do what it says on the label.

Yes... you should send Falateau and George North Instead.....

Oh hang on....

Reckon you need to do some research else people might think that you are daft!

by Guest Wed 12 Oct 2011, 8:30 pm

With North being English he qualifies anyway Wink

by Shifty Wed 12 Oct 2011, 8:39 pm

SafeAsMilk wrote:I think the Lions has had its day now. I used to enjoy it, but with professionalism, it doesn't really work any more. Like the Baa Baas it just tends to clog up the fixture lists. It ruins any continuity for national sides who have a fair few Lions and also damages the clubs/regions/provinces chances for a fair while afterwards.

Scrap it. Players are already putting themselves through too much.

Bring on the European Cup!
Cull the Lions Yahoo

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