Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
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Cymroglan
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The v2 Forum :: Sport :: Rugby Union :: International
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Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby-world-cup-2011/news/article.cfm?c_id=522&objectid=10758658
For guys like Biltong, this does them a bit of an injustice. I don't seem to recall a group of over 60,000 people asking for Wayne Barnes to never referee a game after 2007, pretty childish really.
As much as I think Bryce is overrated by the IRB, I don't think any man deserves the Poopie he's getting and nor did I think Barnes deserved it in 07, although he did have a poor game.
They're humans at the end of the day after all.
Peace out
For guys like Biltong, this does them a bit of an injustice. I don't seem to recall a group of over 60,000 people asking for Wayne Barnes to never referee a game after 2007, pretty childish really.
As much as I think Bryce is overrated by the IRB, I don't think any man deserves the Poopie he's getting and nor did I think Barnes deserved it in 07, although he did have a poor game.
They're humans at the end of the day after all.
Peace out
chewed_mintie- Posts : 1225
Join date : 2011-05-09
Location : Cheshire
Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
How have Wales managed to get Alain Roland? He can speak English and French but not Welsh!!! Disgrace
Perhaps the 4 officials should have 20 mins each as main ref.
That should even it all out?
Perhaps the 4 officials should have 20 mins each as main ref.
That should even it all out?
slartibartfast- Posts : 824
Join date : 2011-09-26
Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
No they gave Wayne Barnes death threats!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/7034858.stm
The International Rugby Board has defended referee Wayne Barnes after he received death threats in the wake of New Zealand's surprise World Cup exit.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/7034858.stm
Shifty- Posts : 7393
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Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
I'd say Greyghost called for Barnes' head 60,000 tmes ,does that count?
Lawerence was poor but doesn't deserve the treatment. Poor form in my view.
Lawerence was poor but doesn't deserve the treatment. Poor form in my view.
Thomond- Posts : 10663
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Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
I was going to post that!Thomond wrote:I'd say Greyghost called for Barnes' head 60,000 tmes ,does that count?
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Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
Like I said Alyn, Barnes didn't deserve what he got.
It isn't clever to try and turn this around as if to condone what is going on.
It isn't clever to try and turn this around as if to condone what is going on.
chewed_mintie- Posts : 1225
Join date : 2011-05-09
Location : Cheshire
Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
Yup, they both had a crap game. No agendas or conspiracys, just bad luck for the sides on the receiving end.
It's sad but at least another nation knows how we feel. Especially as how it's our most respected rugby rival. Not that it makes the Saffas and us feel any better.
Apologies for the idiots from my country that acted like that after 07.
It's sad but at least another nation knows how we feel. Especially as how it's our most respected rugby rival. Not that it makes the Saffas and us feel any better.
Apologies for the idiots from my country that acted like that after 07.
disneychilly- Posts : 2156
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Location : Dublin
Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
Clearly he didn't deserve those threats, he is just a guy trying his best, I am happy when Barnes is refereeing, however he is prone to bad errors, I will never forget that game against Italy when he was clearly asked by our captain if we had time for a line out and he replies yes, when we kicked for touch and positioned to take the throw in he blew for full time. It was a stupid decision, Wales could of kicked 3 points instead and got a draw. The basic problem though is often with referees like Kaplan and Barnes you are often discussing a decision they made at the end of a game, which caused the result of the game to occur, not something the players did.chewed_mintie wrote:Like I said Alyn, Barnes didn't deserve what he got.
It isn't clever to try and turn this around as if to condone what is going on.
In a closely contested game between two evenly matched teams some referees are just not suitable for those occasions.
Shifty- Posts : 7393
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Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
That was Chris White. You can't blame Barnes for every bad decision in every game!AlynDavies wrote:I am happy when Barnes is refereeing, however he is prone to bad errors, I will never forget that game against Italy when he was clearly asked by our captain if we had time for a line out and he replies yes, when we kicked for touch and positioned to take the throw in he blew for full time. It was a stupid decision, Wales could of kicked 3 points instead and got a draw.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/6432323.stm
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Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
Alyn:
It was Chris White not Barnes.
It was Chris White not Barnes.
glamorganalun- Posts : 3292
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Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
I just got so owned didn't I!SafeAsMilk wrote:That was Chris White. You can't blame Barnes for every bad decision in every game!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/6432323.stm
Shifty- Posts : 7393
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Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
The problem as I see it is that over the last 5 years or so,the coaching,training and playing of the game has improved consistently in standard,and sadly the standard of refereeing has not maintained pace with those improvements.
None of the 3 "game managers" (Joubert,Walsh or kaplin) could have refereed this game.
I am not saying that Bryce Lawrence wont one day be a good International referee, but at the moment he aint.noone watching his performances during the Super 15 this year would have thought that he would be refereeing at the sharp end of the World Cup tournament.
None of the 3 "game managers" (Joubert,Walsh or kaplin) could have refereed this game.
I am not saying that Bryce Lawrence wont one day be a good International referee, but at the moment he aint.noone watching his performances during the Super 15 this year would have thought that he would be refereeing at the sharp end of the World Cup tournament.
aucklandlaurie- Posts : 7561
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Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
I agree that BL had a poor game, however in fairness he was poor to both teams at the breakdown. I've watched the game again and at nearly every breakdown both teams were infringing - the Aussies had hands in most of the rucks and SA tried to seal off the ball at most rucks by diving in and over the top and not staying on their feet.
Also, the SA's (just like the AB's in '07) have only themselves to blame (and in fact more to blame than the AB's) as they didn't adapt to the reffing and in particular gave away one of the most stupid penalties I have seen with 10 or so to go when the Aussie lineout jumper had his legs tackled and feet held off the ground by SA resulting in the Aussie not being able to land safely. In my view this cost SA the game and in fact should have resulted in a yellow card for dangerous play.
I know this is not going to be popular, especially after '07, however it doesn't at all surprise me that the Jarpies are moaning so much as in my experience they are "generally" the biggest whingers I have come across when things don't go well (this may have just been the transplanted ones in the UK and NZ, hence the use of the word "generally") - far worse than the POMS and us Kiwis.
Interestingly, the stats from the weekend show a sharp drop in the number of penalties issued. I don't have the exact numbers to hand, however the four refs had been averaging just over 20 penalties a game and in the QF's this dropped to 10 to 15 a game. Was there a direction from the IRB/Paddy O'Brien to let more things go and to allow the ruck to be more of a contest? Not sure, but Joubert who I consider the best ref in the world at the moment let a lot more go in his game than he usually does and he was down from 22 or so penalties over the previous games he reffed in RWC to just 14 and far fewer given at the breakdown. Maybe Paddy should be the target of the abuse - not sure he would care though as he has pretty thick skin.
Also, the SA's (just like the AB's in '07) have only themselves to blame (and in fact more to blame than the AB's) as they didn't adapt to the reffing and in particular gave away one of the most stupid penalties I have seen with 10 or so to go when the Aussie lineout jumper had his legs tackled and feet held off the ground by SA resulting in the Aussie not being able to land safely. In my view this cost SA the game and in fact should have resulted in a yellow card for dangerous play.
I know this is not going to be popular, especially after '07, however it doesn't at all surprise me that the Jarpies are moaning so much as in my experience they are "generally" the biggest whingers I have come across when things don't go well (this may have just been the transplanted ones in the UK and NZ, hence the use of the word "generally") - far worse than the POMS and us Kiwis.
Interestingly, the stats from the weekend show a sharp drop in the number of penalties issued. I don't have the exact numbers to hand, however the four refs had been averaging just over 20 penalties a game and in the QF's this dropped to 10 to 15 a game. Was there a direction from the IRB/Paddy O'Brien to let more things go and to allow the ruck to be more of a contest? Not sure, but Joubert who I consider the best ref in the world at the moment let a lot more go in his game than he usually does and he was down from 22 or so penalties over the previous games he reffed in RWC to just 14 and far fewer given at the breakdown. Maybe Paddy should be the target of the abuse - not sure he would care though as he has pretty thick skin.
Otagolad- Posts : 198
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Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
Yep, we are the worst losers
Biltong- Moderator
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Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
Just be glad that Grade A Idiot Clancy is nor involved this weekend !
21st Century Schizoid Man- Posts : 3564
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Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
It is true that we must blame ourselves, we should have risen above the incompetence and won in spite of Lawrence, just two points, the try OZ scored was right in the beginning of the match, so the damage was already done, Pocock comitted three penalisable offences in winning that ball. I watched Re union tonight and they simply swept it under the carpet.
I agree these people are going too far. I have read conspiracy theories, a hundred jokes about Bryce Lawrence and even saw an organigram of how he referees, perhaps the reason why these people carry on like that is because he has not even made a public apology.
At least the Ozzies got that. If nobody wants to recognise his mistakes on both sides affeted the Boks negatively, then I understand why they are behaving this way.
I would love to show some of the stuff I have seen, but the responses will only be derogative so why bother
I agree these people are going too far. I have read conspiracy theories, a hundred jokes about Bryce Lawrence and even saw an organigram of how he referees, perhaps the reason why these people carry on like that is because he has not even made a public apology.
At least the Ozzies got that. If nobody wants to recognise his mistakes on both sides affeted the Boks negatively, then I understand why they are behaving this way.
I would love to show some of the stuff I have seen, but the responses will only be derogative so why bother
Biltong- Moderator
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Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
BTW -aA combination of Barnes and Clancy is particularly feckked ! These two feckwits would not know if you were up them !
21st Century Schizoid Man- Posts : 3564
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Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
Whats obvious to me is the game relies too much on the single man in the middle.
With multiple infringements going on all the time its unfair to place our refs in this position- no other sport has this much focus on the ref's individual rulings.
Refs are supposed to be in black and white stripes to convey neutrality and wherever possible, invisiblity. If you want to blame someone, blame the rules and do something about it, and get off the ref's backs.
With multiple infringements going on all the time its unfair to place our refs in this position- no other sport has this much focus on the ref's individual rulings.
Refs are supposed to be in black and white stripes to convey neutrality and wherever possible, invisiblity. If you want to blame someone, blame the rules and do something about it, and get off the ref's backs.
Taylorman- Posts : 12343
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Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
Destroying the guy who they think destroyed them. its revenge pure and simple, fact is that SA had a tonne of possession and did little with it. Fair enough BL was tosh but in my view SA lost the game as much by their own failure to score more points than the opposition.
They lost and are out, BL is fecked and will probably never ref again. Lets move on to 2 cracking semis instead of ruminating over this mess
They lost and are out, BL is fecked and will probably never ref again. Lets move on to 2 cracking semis instead of ruminating over this mess
Gatts- Posts : 2212
Join date : 2011-08-18
Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
I'll sign that petition and I didn't even see the Aus/SA match. Lawrence is probably my least favourite referee going.
Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
biltongbek wrote:It is true that we must blame ourselves, we should have risen above the incompetence and won in spite of Lawrence, just two points, the try OZ scored was right in the beginning of the match, so the damage was already done, Pocock comitted three penalisable offences in winning that ball. I watched Re union tonight and they simply swept it under the carpet.
I agree these people are going too far. I have read conspiracy theories, a hundred jokes about Bryce Lawrence and even saw an organigram of how he referees, perhaps the reason why these people carry on like that is because he has not even made a public apology.
At least the Ozzies got that. If nobody wants to recognise his mistakes on both sides affeted the Boks negatively, then I understand why they are behaving this way.
I would love to show some of the stuff I have seen, but the responses will only be derogative so why bother
The problem Biltong is that the more people complain the more they get pelted for being whingers and, in the case of the AB's chokers. I'm not a massive fan of Schadenfreude however given the amount of grief I personally got from Saffers during the last four years over our QF loss in '07 and given the reffing in that game was far worse than BL in this Aus v SA QF, I have absolutely no sympathy for SA fans. Harsh I know, however I'm just being honest and I expect most Kiwis are feeling the same.
Interestingly, one issue that I did raise after the '07 QF which has occurred again in the SA v Aus QF is that the ref's in both games were reffing games that the winner would end up potentially playing their own country - in '07 Barnes already knew Eng were in the semi and was in charge of who they would meet and in 2011 BL likely knew the AB's would win. I think this is unacceptable, as although I think there was no bias in either reffing display (just poor in both) the refs should not be put in a position where even a hint of bias could be raised, which of course is what has been fixed for this weekend (i.e. both refs are from teams that are out).
Otagolad- Posts : 198
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Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
Thanks robbo, you see guys there you just proved my point, you cannot recognise the fact that Lawrence screwed us, at least we admit we lost because we didn't score enough points
Biltong- Moderator
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Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
Otagolad, do you really think the south africans care whether they are called whingers. You should have read some of the things we were called even prior to the match, one more isn't going to make any difference.
If you haven't noticed before, we ain't the most popular rugby team anyway
If you haven't noticed before, we ain't the most popular rugby team anyway
Biltong- Moderator
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Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
Biltong,
Please don't take it personally as every now and then you come across a good Saffer like you and it proves the generalisation wrong.
By the way, I think the Boks have got a ways to go to be more unpopular than the AB's, especially here on 606v2. That might change once PDV leaves as I think real rugby supporters have had a lot of sympathy for the Boks and their fans over the last few years. I think the Corne Krige days were the last time people hated the Boks more than the AB's, although that was probably down to foul play more than anything and on the flip side the Ian McIntosh coached side that played in NZ in 1994 was quite popular with NZer's, although that might have been more down to their losing than anything else.
Please don't take it personally as every now and then you come across a good Saffer like you and it proves the generalisation wrong.
By the way, I think the Boks have got a ways to go to be more unpopular than the AB's, especially here on 606v2. That might change once PDV leaves as I think real rugby supporters have had a lot of sympathy for the Boks and their fans over the last few years. I think the Corne Krige days were the last time people hated the Boks more than the AB's, although that was probably down to foul play more than anything and on the flip side the Ian McIntosh coached side that played in NZ in 1994 was quite popular with NZer's, although that might have been more down to their losing than anything else.
Otagolad- Posts : 198
Join date : 2011-08-24
Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
I just want to cast your minds back to 2007, thiese are just some things I quickly found on the internet about the match between NZ and France in the 2007 RWC.
Patrick Gower-NZ Herald October 12, 2007
Barnes had a good first half, but lost composure and control. I would just take him to one side and go through the tape - but I would make the touch judges come too. He has got the goods; he is a people's person and will be a good manager of the game. As for his decisions, I would say they cost New Zealand the win on the scoreboard, but they did not cost us the game itself. We still should have won.
Ian Anderson in the Waikato Times said the "incompetent" Barnes was "the worst referee at the rugby World Cup". Anderson wrote: "The 28-year-old Englishman broke the hearts of a nation yesterday when he oversaw the All Blacks' 20-18 loss to France in Cardiff in a staggering display of inept officialdom.
Rotorua referee Peri Marks told The Daily Post that Barnes was too inexperienced, saying: "I think the occasion was too big for him. (Barnes) was too slow for the game. It was a great game but it could've been better. I firmly believe we were done big-time by refereeing decisions."
Thousands of New Zealanders have vented their fury online with chatrooms and message boards besieged by angry supporters. Online encyclopedia Wikipedia was forced to remove a mock obituary of the referee which said he had been "lynched" by a mob after the game.
My point is there are wingers all across this planet, every nation gets done in by referees at some points. That is a fact. BUt and this is a big but, not every nation gets plonked over at a rugby world cup knock out match.
Cut the Saffers some slack there are people out there hurting becuase of this loss, and non more so for the reason that nobody wants to recognise the fact. I am pretty sure that many of them would pipe down if it was but for a mere apology.
Patrick Gower-NZ Herald October 12, 2007
Barnes had a good first half, but lost composure and control. I would just take him to one side and go through the tape - but I would make the touch judges come too. He has got the goods; he is a people's person and will be a good manager of the game. As for his decisions, I would say they cost New Zealand the win on the scoreboard, but they did not cost us the game itself. We still should have won.
Ian Anderson in the Waikato Times said the "incompetent" Barnes was "the worst referee at the rugby World Cup". Anderson wrote: "The 28-year-old Englishman broke the hearts of a nation yesterday when he oversaw the All Blacks' 20-18 loss to France in Cardiff in a staggering display of inept officialdom.
Rotorua referee Peri Marks told The Daily Post that Barnes was too inexperienced, saying: "I think the occasion was too big for him. (Barnes) was too slow for the game. It was a great game but it could've been better. I firmly believe we were done big-time by refereeing decisions."
Thousands of New Zealanders have vented their fury online with chatrooms and message boards besieged by angry supporters. Online encyclopedia Wikipedia was forced to remove a mock obituary of the referee which said he had been "lynched" by a mob after the game.
My point is there are wingers all across this planet, every nation gets done in by referees at some points. That is a fact. BUt and this is a big but, not every nation gets plonked over at a rugby world cup knock out match.
Cut the Saffers some slack there are people out there hurting becuase of this loss, and non more so for the reason that nobody wants to recognise the fact. I am pretty sure that many of them would pipe down if it was but for a mere apology.
Biltong- Moderator
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Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
biltongbek wrote:Cut the Saffers some slack there are people out there hurting becuase of this loss, and non more so for the reason that nobody wants to recognise the fact. I am pretty sure that many of them would pipe down if it was but for a mere apology.
The issue for AB's fans is that no-one cut them or the AB's any slack or acknowledged we were robbed in '07 so asking for some is a bit rich when Saffers and others were quick to rub it in for us. We never received an apology from Barnes so why should SA get one from BL? IMHO BL was a million times better than Barnes and BL's issue was that he just let lots go both ways whereas Barnes let everything go the French way - I'm over it and you will be too in 3 or 4 years....maybe.
I'm not trying to rub it in and nowhere have I taken the mickey out of SA for losing - in fact I'd rather we were playing SA this week - its just that Saffers are asking for an apology and acknowledgement that (a) they'll never get and (b) when it happened to NZ the majority of Saffers never acknowledged that the '07 QF was poorly reffed. I'm also not saying two wrongs make a right but the reality is, as I've come to realise over the last four years, that no-one else gives a toss whether a team should have lost or not other than the fans of the losing team.
Otagolad- Posts : 198
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Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
I am long over this Otagolad, I have said my piece about this all yesterday.
But people in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones.
As for the south africans who gave you hell about it, I do not know any personally and have many a time during the last number of years since i have been posting fought the cause for NZ not being chokers and that THE PASS was forward.
But I suppose sport will always be controversial and as you say only the Ozzies gets apologies from referees.
Just by the way do you remember the SA referee who was banned for the yellow card Australia got in the 2010 tri nations against NZ.
Yeah, he made one mistake.
But people in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones.
As for the south africans who gave you hell about it, I do not know any personally and have many a time during the last number of years since i have been posting fought the cause for NZ not being chokers and that THE PASS was forward.
But I suppose sport will always be controversial and as you say only the Ozzies gets apologies from referees.
Just by the way do you remember the SA referee who was banned for the yellow card Australia got in the 2010 tri nations against NZ.
Yeah, he made one mistake.
Biltong- Moderator
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Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
biltongbek wrote:But people in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones.
Not sure why I'm in a glass house. Also, as you will have seen from an earlier post I think you're one of the good Saffers and not a plonker like a number I've met (there are plenty of muppet Kiwis as well).
It's just when you're asking for an apology and an acknowledgement, it doesn't seem like you're "over it". Believe me, I thought a number of times in the last few years that I was over it only to realise that I wasn't - it was only last year that I realised I didn't care about it so I hope the grieveing process goess quicker than for me .
Otagolad- Posts : 198
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Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
Still the same issue but four years later. What good would an apology do? What would you do with it? Feel better?
He was doing what he thinks was his job.
When an All Black plays poorly, doing his job, do we expect an apology every time? No.
There is a problem with a sport that allows its ref to either directly (or indirectly- by doing nothing- both the case of Barnes and Lawrence) influence a result.
Oz clearly knew Lawrence and how to play him. That is also sad...teams apply a certain game plan because of the ref they have- that is absurd.
In snooker, a sport I play at a competitive level, the ref adds up the points and gets the balls out. he occasionally has to call a penalty for a clothes foul on the ball. Other than that he's invisible.
In Rugby more people are looking at the ref at breakdowns than any other person.
Ridiculous...has to change.
He was doing what he thinks was his job.
When an All Black plays poorly, doing his job, do we expect an apology every time? No.
There is a problem with a sport that allows its ref to either directly (or indirectly- by doing nothing- both the case of Barnes and Lawrence) influence a result.
Oz clearly knew Lawrence and how to play him. That is also sad...teams apply a certain game plan because of the ref they have- that is absurd.
In snooker, a sport I play at a competitive level, the ref adds up the points and gets the balls out. he occasionally has to call a penalty for a clothes foul on the ball. Other than that he's invisible.
In Rugby more people are looking at the ref at breakdowns than any other person.
Ridiculous...has to change.
Taylorman- Posts : 12343
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Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
I don't think there is much difference in the way fans react. Just like in 2007 with NZ, many SA fans feel the referee was instrumental in the result and are agrieved.
A few of points though:
1) Whilst the fans complain, the responses of the teams are different> henry and McCaw didn't blame the ref (Ali Williams made soime coomments a year or two down the track). When an unamed kiwi ref made some analysis he was jumped on by the NZRFU.
2) there is no objective assessment of referees. There needs to be it's the only way to ensure consistency.I'm not a fan of Lawrence and I think he allowed Pocock away with a lot. I've watched the game several times and both sides infringe all the time. Should Matfield have been pinged on the first kickoff, when he went for the man not the ball. Should the bok scrum been pinged at the second(?) for the obvious illegal scrummaging. Brosouw and Pocok are similar, and could easily be pinged. There's a lot of aillegal play from both sides at the ruck. I'm not trying to defend Lawrence, I'm saying if the IRB is going to prosecute refs thay should have publically defendable evidence. IMO that should be sports science based not opinion.
3. If bok fans are feeling bad, have a thought for. NZ has been on the wrong side of penalty counts more than any other major playing nation in the last two years, and Barnes stats for 2007 are far worse than last weekends game (if your a bok fan, imagine your side was even more dominant, yet conceeded almost 3 times as many penalties, the opposition, just over half asmany, and you had aa player sent of for an action that is relatively common place, and yet hasn't been replcated in the 4 years before or since the game). Given the IRB defended Barnes I can't see them punishing Lawrence.
A few of points though:
1) Whilst the fans complain, the responses of the teams are different> henry and McCaw didn't blame the ref (Ali Williams made soime coomments a year or two down the track). When an unamed kiwi ref made some analysis he was jumped on by the NZRFU.
2) there is no objective assessment of referees. There needs to be it's the only way to ensure consistency.I'm not a fan of Lawrence and I think he allowed Pocock away with a lot. I've watched the game several times and both sides infringe all the time. Should Matfield have been pinged on the first kickoff, when he went for the man not the ball. Should the bok scrum been pinged at the second(?) for the obvious illegal scrummaging. Brosouw and Pocok are similar, and could easily be pinged. There's a lot of aillegal play from both sides at the ruck. I'm not trying to defend Lawrence, I'm saying if the IRB is going to prosecute refs thay should have publically defendable evidence. IMO that should be sports science based not opinion.
3. If bok fans are feeling bad, have a thought for. NZ has been on the wrong side of penalty counts more than any other major playing nation in the last two years, and Barnes stats for 2007 are far worse than last weekends game (if your a bok fan, imagine your side was even more dominant, yet conceeded almost 3 times as many penalties, the opposition, just over half asmany, and you had aa player sent of for an action that is relatively common place, and yet hasn't been replcated in the 4 years before or since the game). Given the IRB defended Barnes I can't see them punishing Lawrence.
blackcanelion- Posts : 1989
Join date : 2011-06-20
Location : Wellington
Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
You'll have to excuse the spelling (mild dyslexia) and obviously my comments re Lawrence would also apply to Barnes in 2007.
blackcanelion- Posts : 1989
Join date : 2011-06-20
Location : Wellington
Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
Whatever the rights and wrongs of the match concerned,two he got right the forward pass and the the cynical Lineout tackle.
Problem is and applies to ALL Countries and REFS,the breakdown areain particular.Referees will tell you they can penalize EITHER side at EVERY breakdown for about half a dozen offences.
The laws say one thing,the IRB makes different interpratations every year
to improve the"Product".
It has reached the point where it needs simplyfying big time,reverting to the old style Ruck.
Sadly will never happen,that and the scrum laws are one of the major areas of penalties.
Problem is and applies to ALL Countries and REFS,the breakdown areain particular.Referees will tell you they can penalize EITHER side at EVERY breakdown for about half a dozen offences.
The laws say one thing,the IRB makes different interpratations every year
to improve the"Product".
It has reached the point where it needs simplyfying big time,reverting to the old style Ruck.
Sadly will never happen,that and the scrum laws are one of the major areas of penalties.
emack2- Posts : 3686
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Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
Well said TM and BC and just to add to it, Henry went straight into the changing shed of the French in Cardiff and congratulated them - in contrast all we've heard from the the SA management, Union and players is a bunch of moaning. The whinging from the fans I can accept as I've been there, however the players coaches and Union should shut up and take it like men.
Otagolad- Posts : 198
Join date : 2011-08-24
Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
It is poor sportsmanship plan and simple. All sides have to put up with indifferent refereeing performances unfortunately - it is part and parcel of the game. BL also had a shocker in the Ireland - W match and W were on the wrong end of several dubious calls at scrum time. But they didn't threaten WWIII as a result. To suggest Pocock is a cheat etc is no different to the same allegations as those levelled at McCaw - justified, yes perhaps but in the end the 7s role is steal ball and very hard to know where the line is drawn - in fact impossible to be definitive about almost any breakdown scenario. W been putting up with the same for years against ABs and have lost several close matches. But in the end if you can't beat, join 'em. Perhaps SA just didn't have their main 7 on the field and that was the difference. For me, SA bungled too many chances to score. W had 4 chances to score and scored 3 times. That was the difference, not BL.
Rob B- Posts : 466
Join date : 2011-06-27
Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
and PS - not a boo from anyone over the fact that O'Connor was not given a second crack at converting Horwill's try when Pieterson (or Habana?) illegally rushed at him. If SA had have kicked one more goal then it would have been 12-11 to SA.
Rob B- Posts : 466
Join date : 2011-06-27
Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
Rob b
I thought for a repeat attempt to be made at an unsuccessful conversion,the goalkicker had to have "begun his approach to the kick" then he may take another kick.
As O'Connor had not begun his approach, the charger was left to continue, and O'Connor resumed his process of taking the conversion.
I thought for a repeat attempt to be made at an unsuccessful conversion,the goalkicker had to have "begun his approach to the kick" then he may take another kick.
As O'Connor had not begun his approach, the charger was left to continue, and O'Connor resumed his process of taking the conversion.
aucklandlaurie- Posts : 7561
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Age : 68
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Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
Rob B wrote:It is poor sportsmanship plan and simple. All sides have to put up with indifferent refereeing performances unfortunately - it is part and parcel of the game. BL also had a shocker in the Ireland - W match and W were on the wrong end of several dubious calls at scrum time. But they didn't threaten WWIII as a result. To suggest Pocock is a cheat etc is no different to the same allegations as those levelled at McCaw - justified, yes perhaps but in the end the 7s role is steal ball and very hard to know where the line is drawn - in fact impossible to be definitive about almost any breakdown scenario. W been putting up with the same for years against ABs and have lost several close matches. But in the end if you can't beat, join 'em. Perhaps SA just didn't have their main 7 on the field and that was the difference. For me, SA bungled too many chances to score. W had 4 chances to score and scored 3 times. That was the difference, not BL.
spot on
Gatts- Posts : 2212
Join date : 2011-08-18
Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
Rob b you go on believing that, and as far as your convertion you already got the try illegally so yeah why not want the whole seven points
Biltong- Moderator
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Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
Biltong
there has obviously been a lot of discussion about the penalties over in the Republic,But going the other way has any mention been made of two incidents of the two Australian wingers being tackled in the air?
there has obviously been a lot of discussion about the penalties over in the Republic,But going the other way has any mention been made of two incidents of the two Australian wingers being tackled in the air?
aucklandlaurie- Posts : 7561
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Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
Laurie Andre Watson mentioned that Lawrence was poor for both sides, but I am tired of talking about it, it is a waste of time, let's just leave it at that.
Biltong- Moderator
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Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
chewed_mintie wrote:http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby-world-cup-2011/news/article.cfm?c_id=522&objectid=10758658
For guys like Biltong, this does them a bit of an injustice. I don't seem to recall a group of over 60,000 people asking for Wayne Barnes to never referee a game after 2007, pretty childish really.
As much as I think Bryce is overrated by the IRB, I don't think any man deserves the Poopie he's getting and nor did I think Barnes deserved it in 07, although he did have a poor game.
They're humans at the end of the day after all.
Peace out
your being to harsh on the saffers there pal- Online poetitioning is a growing way of expressing feelings. There is nothing to suggest if it was NZ that had a hard time by a ref in there quarter and subsequently went out that there wouldnt be an online petition this time around.
Social media has gone through the roof. You can get 100,000 signs for just about anything these days(slight exageration) by posting a few things on facebook- in 2007 it wasnt quite the same
mystiroakey- Posts : 32472
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Age : 47
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Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
chewed_mintie wrote:Like I said Alyn, Barnes didn't deserve what he got.
It isn't clever to try and turn this around as if to condone what is going on.
not sure i get your point then- I took the point of your thread to mean how unjust we were to the kiwis back in 2007 by calling you sore losers or chokers, but the saffas are acting worse today, so take it back!!- that is the jist of your post pal. and that is what we are comenting on!
bad reffing to the level shown shouldnt exsist when we have such tech advances- or they should be trying to work out ways of aiding the refs we have.
I am a neatural to both of those games, but as i am english and have felt the same during football world cup games.
Time to voice up and put pressure on the IRB to sort it out.
A petition should be raised about how to aid the refs(not ban the ref in question) but then again as pointed out - its still better than 'death threats'
mystiroakey- Posts : 32472
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Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
By comparison to Wayne Barnes, Bryce Lawrence's performance was stellar. He at least penalised both sides, didn't send someone off for no reason, and he did, to be fair, spot a forward pass.
I can understand the frustration of these fans and what appeared to be a special set of rules applied to the breakdown for this one game. I think Bryce got carried away with trying to allow a flowing game and in the end allowed Pocock free reign at the breakdown. I do however believe that if HB had not been injured early on, then his influence would have nullified the Aussie, and had BB been on the pitch he would have sorted it out in a traditional style.
It's a desperate shame to have lost the Springboks from this competition because to me, they looked the better team on the day.
Ultimately, that's knock out rugby though. For all of NZ's valid and bitter complaint about Barnes, history is history. Springbok fans should reflect on the history of world cups and their own history and not see this loss a reflective of their status in the global game.
I've long said that at the top level, the gap between the teams is smaller than the ability of referees to apply the laws consistently, and that the RWC would be decided by refereeing error.
We all know the RWC doesn't necessarily reward the best team at the tournament. This time it's bad luck Springboks.
If this serves to shed some old myths about "choking" or "grafting" or "pedigrees" or "winning when it counts" then perhaps that's not a bad thing.
Let's let go of this childish focus on the stupid rugby world cup and get back to the important stuff - test series, tours and traditions.
I can understand the frustration of these fans and what appeared to be a special set of rules applied to the breakdown for this one game. I think Bryce got carried away with trying to allow a flowing game and in the end allowed Pocock free reign at the breakdown. I do however believe that if HB had not been injured early on, then his influence would have nullified the Aussie, and had BB been on the pitch he would have sorted it out in a traditional style.
It's a desperate shame to have lost the Springboks from this competition because to me, they looked the better team on the day.
Ultimately, that's knock out rugby though. For all of NZ's valid and bitter complaint about Barnes, history is history. Springbok fans should reflect on the history of world cups and their own history and not see this loss a reflective of their status in the global game.
I've long said that at the top level, the gap between the teams is smaller than the ability of referees to apply the laws consistently, and that the RWC would be decided by refereeing error.
We all know the RWC doesn't necessarily reward the best team at the tournament. This time it's bad luck Springboks.
If this serves to shed some old myths about "choking" or "grafting" or "pedigrees" or "winning when it counts" then perhaps that's not a bad thing.
Let's let go of this childish focus on the stupid rugby world cup and get back to the important stuff - test series, tours and traditions.
TheGreyGhost- Posts : 2531
Join date : 2011-06-06
Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
aucklandlaurie wrote: Rob b
I thought for a repeat attempt to be made at an unsuccessful conversion,the goalkicker had to have "begun his approach to the kick" then he may take another kick.
As O'Connor had not begun his approach, the charger was left to continue, and O'Connor resumed his process of taking the conversion.
I think once the kicker begins to approach, they are allowed to charge - O'Connor hadn't started the approach so the charge was blatantly illegal and probably robbed them of another 2. Funny how SA press never mentioned it though...
Rob B- Posts : 466
Join date : 2011-06-27
Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
Rob
the point I was clumsily trying to make that the charge was so early that it didnt matter,you are right the charger cant move until the kicker begins the approach to the kick.
In fact when O'Connor did kick the ball the charger was about half way,waiting for the restart.
If I remember rightly the laws are quite vague on how a kicker is "awarded " a repeat attempt.
the point I was clumsily trying to make that the charge was so early that it didnt matter,you are right the charger cant move until the kicker begins the approach to the kick.
In fact when O'Connor did kick the ball the charger was about half way,waiting for the restart.
If I remember rightly the laws are quite vague on how a kicker is "awarded " a repeat attempt.
aucklandlaurie- Posts : 7561
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Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10758694
Bit hypocritical of Andre Watson who tried to singlehandedly gift Australia the world cup in 2003.
It's a shame this disgraceful South African ref couldn't admit his own mistakes in that match.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/rugby_world_cup/3250450.stm
Trust me there would have been a huge lynch mob if Andre Watson had been successful in his nefarious scheme. I have never forgiven him for that.
It is very annoying when the ref has such an impact on the result.
At least in 3 of the matches the ref's impact was minimal.
Bit hypocritical of Andre Watson who tried to singlehandedly gift Australia the world cup in 2003.
It's a shame this disgraceful South African ref couldn't admit his own mistakes in that match.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/rugby_world_cup/3250450.stm
Trust me there would have been a huge lynch mob if Andre Watson had been successful in his nefarious scheme. I have never forgiven him for that.
It is very annoying when the ref has such an impact on the result.
At least in 3 of the matches the ref's impact was minimal.
beshocked- Posts : 14849
Join date : 2011-03-08
Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
Unfortunately Barnes is still crap now.chewed_mintie wrote:http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby-world-cup-2011/news/article.cfm?c_id=522&objectid=10758658
For guys like Biltong, this does them a bit of an injustice. I don't seem to recall a group of over 60,000 people asking for Wayne Barnes to never referee a game after 2007, pretty childish really.
As much as I think Bryce is overrated by the IRB, I don't think any man deserves the Poopie he's getting and nor did I think Barnes deserved it in 07, although he did have a poor game.
They're humans at the end of the day after all.
Peace out
And he is getting the same treatment as Lawrence: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Drop-the-ref-Wayne-Barnes-from-the-Rugby-World-Cup-2011/267259043298430
Not cool
AsLongAsBut100ofUs- Posts : 14129
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Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
mystiroakey wrote:chewed_mintie wrote:Like I said Alyn, Barnes didn't deserve what he got.
It isn't clever to try and turn this around as if to condone what is going on.
not sure i get your point then- I took the point of your thread to mean how unjust we were to the kiwis back in 2007 by calling you sore losers or chokers, but the saffas are acting worse today, so take it back!!- that is the jist of your post pal. and that is what we are comenting on!
bad reffing to the level shown shouldnt exsist when we have such tech advances- or they should be trying to work out ways of aiding the refs we have.
I am a neatural to both of those games, but as i am english and have felt the same during football world cup games.
Time to voice up and put pressure on the IRB to sort it out.
A petition should be raised about how to aid the refs(not ban the ref in question) but then again as pointed out - its still better than 'death threats'
No, my point was really that we don’t seem to have learnt (as rugby supporters in general) from 2007. What some NZers did then was reprehensible and immature. For the last few years, we have been all labelled as sore losers, even those who took that lose on the chin. Now the Sth Africans have blown their tops about this. As most of the labelling came from NH posters on the old 606, are they going to label the Saffa’s as such?
Someone made a brilliant observation earlier, after 2007 not one of the All Blacks players or coaching staff publicly blamed Wayne Barnes. Here, it’s taken John Smit all of 24 hrs to blame BL.
I’m also just trying to point out that until we have cyborgs controlling games, then I’m afraid human error will be part and parcel of Rugby (and sport in general).
chewed_mintie- Posts : 1225
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Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
TheGreyGhost wrote:By comparison to Wayne Barnes, Bryce Lawrence's performance was stellar. He at least penalised both sides, didn't send someone off for no reason, and he did, to be fair, spot a forward pass.
He also spotted a forward pass that wasn't!
chewed_mintie- Posts : 1225
Join date : 2011-05-09
Location : Cheshire
Re: Pretty pathetic....and to think of all the people who said we were bad sports in 2007
Whats with the New Zealand Herald and these sensationalist stories though? The British press has a bad reputation but this rag seems to have learnt well from its colonial masters in how to blow a story out of all proportion.
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler- Posts : 10344
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