David Haye - A tribute!!

by TRUSSMAN66 Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:36 am

First topic message reminder :

You can count the name of British boxers that have transcended the sport and are known on both sides of the Atlantic on one hand in the last forty years..David Haye without doubt is one of these and I'm sorry people have failed to see the wider picture and are hammering him from pillar to post..

Sure he could've pretended to be nice remember Bruno to Honey "I told him if he acts humble he could make money" or be himself..Me I have more respect for a guy being himself...Heck I didn't much like him either if honest..

However he's one of the greatest British fighters of alltime...he was exciting, talented and brought aestheticity back to the Heavyweight division if only for a short period...

He unified the cruiser (basically) ...became a top 3 cruiser of alltime in my opinion and became one of a handful to mix with men a lot bigger and take home the big prize.....

Yep he cocked up his last fight but how many top fighters leave on a victory???

A great British standard bearer and I'm sorry he's getting the flak he is albeit some of it is deserved!!!..especially toe-gate!

Fighters like Haye don't grow on many British trees....try to appreciate him more....respect what he has achieved..

On a side note mCcrory thinks the Haye performance was calculated and that's okay!! So screwing British fans out of thousands of pounds is okay....Class act!!!

Whatever good luck to Haye........wish him the best for his future..

by AlexHuckerby Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:46 pm

No he was WBA champ because he beat Valuev, however Chagaev got strippe before that, Haye would have annihalated Chagaev.

by The genius of PBF Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:49 pm

manos de piedra wrote:
The genius of PBF wrote:
manos de piedra wrote:
The genius of PBF wrote:
manos de piedra wrote:
The genius of PBF wrote:
manos de piedra wrote:
The genius of PBF wrote:
manos de piedra wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Still didn't unify......

Most here would pick Haye to squash him like Tyson-Damiani...

Its nowhere near that one sided for me. I think Haye would win, but it would be a competitive fight. Cunningham was a live rival to Haye in a way that I dont think Damiani ever was to Tyson.

Incidently, I believe you can still say unify in relation to Haye as he did unify 3/4 titles. Where it becomes pedantic is that I dont believe you can call him "undisputed" as Cunningham held the IBF title. Thus Haye was a "unified" champion but not an "undisputed" one. For what its worth.

Like I said he only got the title because Mormeck got stripped.

WBC
WBA
WBO
Ring Magazine

The four most prestigious titles Haye held...Cunningham did nothing to earn a shot at Haye...Haye is the undisputed Champion at cruiserweight.

I dont differentiate between the 4 titles anymore. They are all equally faceless. I dont dispute that Haye established himself as the top cruiserweight. But the whole point of undisputed is that there is no other champion to "dispute" the claim. Cunningham held a title so Haye was not undisputed. Its a pedantic point of discussion probably not worth arguing over though.

Haye established himself as the best cruiserweight. That much is pretty obvious. However Cunningham was probably better than Enzo Maccarinelli for instance.

So Haye has to win the WBF, IBO, IBA, WBU etc...Cunningham did nothing to dispute it...Haye undisputed champion.

He held a world championship from a major sanctioning body. That is sufficient to dispute it. The same way that Haye holding the WBA title disputed the Klitschkos claims.

Would you consider Wlad Klitsschko the undisputed world champion at present then for that matter? Or would you be willing to acknowledge that Vitali has a fairly strong dispute in the matter?

Nope Cunningham was a paper champ nothing more...Haye the undisputed cruiserweight champion.

Vitali is a different case...Haye beat the highest ranked opponent in Mormeck...Wladimir beat the number two guy in Haye.

Wladimir though is the number one heavyweight as he has the better wins.

It doesnt really matter how much you call Haye undisputed. The fact of the matter is he wasnt. The fact that Cunningham was ranked the number 2 cruiserweight at the time by the Ring amongst other also supports this. Hae was ranked higher, but he wasnt undisputed.

If Cunningham was a paper champion at cruiserweigh then Haye was a paper champion at heavyweight.

Haye was the undisputed champ beat the two belt holders and Cunningham only got the IBF by Mormeck getting stripped.

Haye proved himself at heavyweight by beating two former world champions and deserved a shot at Wladimir...there was huge public demand for the fight to happen.

No one wanted to see Haye destroy Cunningham.

Yeah well Haye was only WBA champ because Chagaev got stripped. Otherwise Wlad have had the title even earlier.

Chagaev got stripped because he was not medically fit to fight...Mormeck got stripped for fighting Haye big difference.

by The genius of PBF Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:51 pm

Plus Haye had to fight the champion...Cunningham never did

by manos de piedra Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:52 pm

AlexHuckerby wrote:No he was WBA champ because he beat Valuev, however Chagaev got strippe before that, Haye would have annihalated Chagaev.

Haye would have destroyed Wlad if he had never fought him aswell I guess. An unbeaten Chagaev would have been the best name on Hayes record. Thats the reality.

Chagaev beat Valuev fairly for the title and was denied his rematch in dubious circumstances. Don King managing to have the fight held in a country where Chagaev would fail a medical, despite Valuev being based out of Germany where Chagaev would have been fit to fight.

by AlexHuckerby Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:02 pm

Chagaev was pretty poor I'm rather confident he would have beaten him in honesty, but who cares it's not Hayes fault he didn't ahve to fight him for the title.

by Joshsmith Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:03 pm

You can count the name of British boxers that have transcended the sport and are known on both sides of the Atlantic on one hand in the last forty years..David Haye without doubt is one of these.......

Ha ha ha what a load of garbage you do write Trussman.. so by your account Haye has transcended the sport of boxing in America? What a load of poo that is.. nobody knows the guy.. believe me. The Americans still do not get David Beckham, he is the guy who married a spice girl and looks great on billboards selling pants, but they know David Haye ha ha ha great stuff. but However your "opinion" sells as you clearly want it to.. Even you do not believe hand on heart what you have write to be true, you are much to clever for that.. i applaude you for waking up this dull forum though.

by manos de piedra Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:11 pm

AlexHuckerby wrote:Chagaev was pretty poor I'm rather confident he would have beaten him in honesty, but who cares it's not Hayes fault he didn't ahve to fight him for the title.

Yes but my point is its being made out like guys like Cunningham and Chagaev are unfit to share the ring with Haye. I dont get this because these would still be two of the best names on his record if he beat them. I would make Haye favourite over Chagaev but not by a huge amount. The guy had a great amateur pedigree (including beating Felix Savon) and was unbeaten at the time. I dont think Haye is entitled to start as a monstous favourite or dismiss the fight as being potentially beneath him. Which is bringing me back to my earlier point about Klitschko where if he adopted an attitude that he didnt need to fight his rivals because he was better than them, then he would never have to fight at all.

by TRUSSMAN66 Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:12 pm

What has whether the Americans get Beckham got to do with it???

Don't bother mate..stick to the nickelodeon channel

by Super D Boon Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:15 pm

Rubbish. Haye is far from one of Britain's best. He unified a dreadful cruiserweight division and stayed there at the helm as long as fart in a gale. His best win was against a talentless giant and he only just won that having promised to make the earth shake when he felled his enormous foe!

Haye was full of talk about brutality only to fight on the back foot and pot shot...ooh sneaky! The usual Haye/Booth kidology ...masterful - Not!

Haye is like one of those plumbers you see on Rogue Traders. He charges the earth just to replace a washer. Gladly I never paid a penny into his over hyped career. Good but far from great fighter who's gotten very lucky with the cash. Glad to see him go. Please, please don't come back!

by TRUSSMAN66 Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:16 pm

Achievement wise not many surpass him.....

by Guest Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:21 pm

You can count the name of British boxers that have transcended the sport and are known on both sides of the Atlantic on one hand in the last forty years..David Haye without doubt is one of these.......

----------------------------

If indeed this is the case, and I very much doubt it is, then Haye's presumed fame on both sides of the pond can only be attributed to his brash, arrogant spouting prior to the Wlad fight, and his shameless ineptitude during and after it.

This in my view is not something praiseworthy; it certainly does not embellish his status amongst the notable champions this country has produced.

Indeed, sudden and reactionary fame is a by-product of the mass communication age - it does not mean anything and holds no value.

Susan Boyle?

ghost

by Joshsmith Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:25 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:What has whether the Americans get Beckham got to do with it???

Don't bother mate..stick to the nickelodeon channel

If you do not get it, sorry i do not have the time to explain,, Jesus are all you guys on here punch drunk..

by **HumanWindmill** Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:30 pm

Joshsmith wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:What has whether the Americans get Beckham got to do with it???

Don't bother mate..stick to the nickelodeon channel

If you do not get it, sorry i do not have the time to explain,, Jesus are all you guys on here punch drunk..

Cut the attitude and the insults, Josh.

by TRUSSMAN66 Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:37 pm

Another waingro it seems...

HBO etc showed interest in Haye.......How many Brits have that honor??

by Joshsmith Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:38 pm

Printed in RED.. my oh my.
Forgive me but did he not cast the first stone .. Don't bother mate..stick to the nickelodeon channel..
Attitude do you mean by not sticking to the Status Quo??
Hopkins for me was a great great fighter, however of recent times he is a bore and a shame to boxing, that is my opinion.. just because i do not spend all my time on this forum.. i work for a living.. does not mean i love Boxing. Shame on you

by TRUSSMAN66 Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:41 pm

Attitude ..by writing something coherent with the abuse from time to time...

by **HumanWindmill** Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:42 pm

Joshsmith wrote:Printed in RED.. my oh my.
Forgive me but did he not cast the first stone .. Don't bother mate..stick to the nickelodeon channel..
Attitude do you mean by not sticking to the Status Quo??
Hopkins for me was a great great fighter, however of recent times he is a bore and a shame to boxing, that is my opinion.. just because i do not spend all my time on this forum.. i work for a living.. does not mean i love Boxing. Shame on you

Attitude which is permeating several threads. I guess everybody threw stones before you did, eh?

Not to worry about the red ink, Sunshine.

You won't be reading it any more.

by TRUSSMAN66 Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:45 pm

Guess we are all benefit scroungers or guys that have been unlucky to lose our jobs in the recession...

Nothing like generalising...is there??

by Super D Boon Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:47 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Achievement wise not many surpass him.....

In a British context I'd have Lewis, Calzaghe, Hamed, Hatton all being a level or two above him from boxers of recent times. I'd have to place the likes of Benn and Eubank above him even though they didn't do what he did and claim a division as such they were still two weight world champions and their longevity puts them above Haye for me.

Can't really believe that Haye transcended the sport either. He was all talk of "saving heavyweight boxing" but even if he had beaten Wlad, to do so then retire immediately afterwards would have only saved a ton of cash in his ISAs. It wouldn't have saved boxing in any way.

Haye was there at the top for too short a time and fought too few and far between to really have transcended the sport. His reign was too short lived to have any real affect.

by TRUSSMAN66 Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:48 pm

Exactly not many surpass him...

Four names in twenty five years and some of them are debatable!!!

by TRUSSMAN66 Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:53 pm

Has something happened to little Joshy..... Windy????

He's gone a little quiet..

by Super D Boon Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:53 pm

I make it six names but there we are. I have debated Johnny Nelson as well purely for longevity's sake, but I won't push it with Nelson and just stick to six.

by Guest Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:54 pm

He's in the sin bin aka naughty corner.

by TRUSSMAN66 Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:55 pm

Johnny Nelson ha ha ha....

Say no more Mate!!! I won't mock the afflicted..

by Super D Boon Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:55 pm

I said I wouldn't put Johnny Nelson in there though didn't I....?

by TRUSSMAN66 Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:56 pm

We have a naughty corner in the Blue Oyster if there is no room on 606v2!!

by TRUSSMAN66 Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:57 pm

You debated him.....which say's it all.....

The Yorkshire stinker..

by Super D Boon Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:01 pm

Yes but Nelson is the world record holder for most title defences at cruiserweight am I right? Got to be worth something. Even if he defended against rubbish, the cruisers have never been the best bunch and Haye hardly had to beat top p4p names to get his titles either.

Anyway, I have Haye as Briatin's 7th best boxer of the last 25 years.

by TRUSSMAN66 Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:04 pm

WBO cruiserweight champion...who should've been slung out for holding against Warring (12-0 in rounds) was beaten god knows how many times...and landed about four punches against the great Carlos deleon...

Worth as much as a grain of salt in a salt mine..

by Super D Boon Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:11 pm

It seems we disagree on the great Entertainer Johnny Nelson.

by manos de piedra Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:16 pm

I would say Froch and Khan will most likely surpass Haye barring some kind of meltdown in the near future.

Difficult to say where he ranks. Depends on what criteria you use. He established himself as the best cruiserweight, but if you go off what his record is there are hardly any quality wins. Valuev, Mormeck and Maccarinelli are the only guys he ever beat that were ranked in the top ten in their division when Haye beat them.

by BALTIMORA Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:29 pm

The fact the guy's retired with only 27 fights on his record is pretty dismal. Sure, he achieved a relatively decent amount in that time but he'll be remembered as a guy who took only the bare minimum of fights. He didn't hang around Cruiser to make a real impression there, and his heavyweight career was a farce really. Valuev was an OK win based on the guy's size, and Ruiz was an alright fight but nothing amazing. I can understand the argument that he was better than do many of the other heaviest but without having proven as much he can't be taken seriously. It's like me saying I'm better than them all, so why do I have to face them to prove it? He was a good fighter, bit ultimately failed to deliver. His career lacks consistency over an extended period.

by TRUSSMAN66 Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:35 pm

Failed to deliver..

Undisputed cruiser and WBA heavy champ....and took part in a superfight !!

Bet more fighters wish their careers would fail to deliver

by **oxring** Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:40 pm

To be the best cruiser without beating Bell or Cunningham - Haye has been extremely lucky. At HW - Valuev was ranked in the top 10 thanks to King buying him a title. He was hopeless. Mormeck was a good win.

HW resume not great.

Hype over substance. Tools to be a great, wasn't.

5 years down the line - when Canastota vote for the HoF - I'd be surprised if Haye would make it in. His resume isn't up to it.

The converse is that if they do let him in, they'll have to let in almost anyone to lace up a pair.

by TRUSSMAN66 Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:43 pm

No one saying he is a hall of famer..just that he is a great British boxer...

by Scottrf Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:54 pm

One of the best ever Cypriot boxers in my opinion.

by AlexHuckerby Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:55 pm

I would probably say Frochs achievements at SMW surpass what Haye has done at Cruiser already... Not an awful amount of talent in the HW division and the people Haye beat aren't as good as Pascal or Taylor Direll or even Johnson, you can pick apart the guys but i would say that he has a better career than Haye apart from Haye picking up belts in 2 different divisions.

by TRUSSMAN66 Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:57 pm

Froch will no doubt be a british great in due time..

by AlexHuckerby Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:58 pm

Without doubt if he beats Ward, then he will be right up there.

by TRUSSMAN66 Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:23 pm

Thought the wbo was around in 88.....

So although he was champin Tyson time..probably not as good a comparison as I thought...

by Waingro Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:38 pm

Lets not forget Haye is an all time great cruiser he is one of the best ever cruiserweights. If Froch beats Ward then maybe he can say he is one of the best but if he loses he will have lost to Kessler and Ward I do not think that is better Haye coz he will not be the best in his division. Haye proved he was the best cruiserweight in the world and one of the best cruiserweights of all time.

by Scottrf Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:39 pm

Big fish in a small pond. Froch has a tougher task.

by Waingro Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:43 pm

Scottrf wrote:Big fish in a small pond. Froch has a tougher task.

Would Froch be able to beat someone far far bigger than him like Klichko or Valuev? Im not sure he would imo Haye had a harder task he was a small heavyweight the klichkos are huge and are also quality lets not forget Froch has not moved up in weight. Dont get me wrong I rate Froch and hope he can beat Ward but I reckon Haye is a better fighter.

by BALTIMORA Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:44 pm

Waingro wrote:Lets not forget Haye is an all time great cruiser he is one of the best ever cruiserweights. If Froch beats Ward then maybe he can say he is one of the best but if he loses he will have lost to Kessler and Ward I do not think that is better Haye coz he will not be the best in his division. Haye proved he was the best cruiserweight in the world and one of the best cruiserweights of all time.

Same as Scott's just said-Haye has the dubious honour of being one of the best fighters to have fought in a crap division. That's like saying High School Musical 2 is the best of the lot...

by **oxring** Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:19 pm

BALTIMORA wrote:
Waingro wrote:Lets not forget Haye is an all time great cruiser he is one of the best ever cruiserweights. If Froch beats Ward then maybe he can say he is one of the best but if he loses he will have lost to Kessler and Ward I do not think that is better Haye coz he will not be the best in his division. Haye proved he was the best cruiserweight in the world and one of the best cruiserweights of all time.
Same as Scott's just said-Haye has the dubious honour of being one of the best fighters to have fought in a crap division. That's like saying High School Musical 2 is the best of the lot...

You've watched High School Musical? Nothing you have ever said has shocked me as much as that comment...

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:29 pm

Good cruiserweight but never fought at the top level of that weight for long enough or had the opposition to be considered a great imo. Distinctly average heavyweight career.

Good riddance tbh. He got put in his place by Wlad and couldn't just accept his defeat like a man he had to start flashing small toes at people. The guys a joke. He'll start bad mouthing the Klitschkos hoping to get that fight and more importantly the pay day that comes with it. I don't believe all this retirement stuff for a minute.

by Strongback Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:29 pm

Hey Trussy.........When Mike Tyson became undisputed world heavyweight champion the WBO didn't even exist.

By the time Francesco Damiani won the WBO heavyweight belt the WBO had less credibility than you do.

by BALTIMORA Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:29 pm

oxring wrote:
BALTIMORA wrote:
Waingro wrote:Lets not forget Haye is an all time great cruiser he is one of the best ever cruiserweights. If Froch beats Ward then maybe he can say he is one of the best but if he loses he will have lost to Kessler and Ward I do not think that is better Haye coz he will not be the best in his division. Haye proved he was the best cruiserweight in the world and one of the best cruiserweights of all time.
Same as Scott's just said-Haye has the dubious honour of being one of the best fighters to have fought in a crap division. That's like saying High School Musical 2 is the best of the lot...

You've watched High School Musical? Nothing you have ever said has shocked me as much as that comment...

I've seen #2... A mate of mine has a six-year-old daughter. And that's absolutely the truth.

by J.Benson II Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:33 pm

Its hard to say how Haye will be judged in the future. I think if he showed more class and acted in a more honest and humble manner he would probably have less critics and more fans.

His achievements at CW have to be respected. He may not have been the undisputed champion there but he was clearly the man at the weight. A unification fight with Cunningham never occured but given that Cunningham was bounced up and down by a lighter punching Adamek, I don't doubt that Haye would have finished him of within the first 6.
However, due to the weakness of the division, Haye couldnt really establish any real legacy there regardless of who he fought. If you look at his best wins at the weight (Williams, Fragomeni, Mormeck & Enzo), the only one who could be considered a genuine world level operator was Mormeck.

His HW career just seemed more of a financially driven, business scheme rather than anything else. He became a champion at the weight, but it was simply a case of taking advantage of the moden, multiple belt era. I don't think he really has a claim that he was anything other than a paper champion at HW.
His opposition at the weight was highly questionable. A 35 year old Wlad was the youngest HW he fought. Only 2 of his 6 opponents were Top 10 rated at the time of the fights, one of which he beat by MD, the other in which he loses by a wide decision.
He failed to fight any top contenders in which he could have distanced himself from the chasing pack and despite being possibly more talented, failed to establish himself as being better than several of the other belt holders the division has seen over the past decade.
Overall, its quite uninspiring.
He's mainly living of his CW success and I don't feel there is enough quality there for history to be kind towards him.

by TRUSSMAN66 Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:35 pm

Nice to see Strongy is on the ball hey!!

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