So Next Week France v New Zealand Final! ! !

First topic message reminder :

Based on the 2 games this week end, you would have to say that the Web Ellis Cup belongs to New Zealand.

But the French being French, well you never know.

Although i would love to think that France could win next week, i realy cannot see it my self.

Well lets hope that the game next week throws up a few surprises, and New Zealand do not have it all their own way.

player1 wrote:

GavinDragon wrote:actually going against my usual NH bias to support New Zealand next week, France have no right to be in the final beaten twice in the group, overcame an out of sorts england and scraped home against a 14 man wales, hope the blacks put 40 past em!

me too

player1 wrote:

player1 wrote:

GavinDragon wrote:actually going against my usual NH bias to support New Zealand next week, France have no right to be in the final beaten twice in the group, overcame an out of sorts england and scraped home against a 14 man wales, hope the blacks put 40 past em!

me too

I will be wearing Black this coming Sunday

I will be wearing Black for the final game as i suppose most welsh fans will ..

personally and i suppose this is only if i watch the game- i would be happy for france to win- mainly because it would turn the tourny into a memorable one. as it would surely make the game- chances are nz will win and win big which will be a total anti climax

I'm with mystiroakey... the only thing that would give this WC a memorable boost would be a shock final. (Apologies to all the Kiwis!)

I think alot of people are forgetting the opening 10-15 mins of the NZ-France pool game. France really put it up to them with some fluid aggressive rugby and the AB's looked rattled. From what I remember they were only a hair's breadth from a try on a few occasions. It was one of those games where if they'd got the first try then they might have played a completely different game. But they didn't and (as Ireland had already beaten the Oz by then), in that typically appaling French way, they didn't look remotely interested in competing when the ABs started to pull away.

So I think the first game is out for a true comparison.

I'd also say that this is not the worst french team by a long way. Their performances have certainly been abysmal. But they have a set of players both up front and out wide who can turn anyone on their day.

Ultimately though, I'm gonna contradict all that and still go with a NZ trouncing. This may not be the worst french side but I think they are the most brittle and psychologically messed-up French team in any WC (Anyone remember watching their game with Australia in Paris just a few months ago!!! ). If the ABs can score early and hit them with intensity at the breakdown then I think the french may roll over and play dead long before half-time.

(But nonetheless surely the French know that the best gameplan will be to do everything to avoid this first half mauling and see where they are at the break?)

Bookies are giving 13-2 against France and 1-10 on NZ. Chancesd ared NZ will hammer the French but those sort of odds in any two-horse race - even a thoroughbred against and old nag - are very tempting. a tenner on France at 13-2 and then pray for a miracle!

mystiroakey wrote:personally and i suppose this is only if i watch the game- i would be happy for france to win- mainly because it would turn the tourny into a memorable one. as it would surely make the game- chances are nz will win and win big which will be a total anti climax

Not for me it wont boyo...not for me

AS to the All Blacks being THE only professional team in 1987,in 1970`s .Welsh players turned out for there club side on Saturdays,then nipped across the channel.
To play for a French side for cash on Sundays,one player wrote an article for cash in a Rugby Magazine.[A Welsh International].
He was banned from the game much to the pique of the Basque Rugby side
he was moonlighting for cash for.
It was common practice for many English and Welsh players at the time[1972-3]

Taylorman wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:personally and i suppose this is only if i watch the game- i would be happy for france to win- mainly because it would turn the tourny into a memorable one. as it would surely make the game- chances are nz will win and win big which will be a total anti climax

Not for me it wont boyo...not for me

why you speaking in welsh

Taylorman,

You must be feeling pretty good after Sunday night. It was an amazing atmosphere at the ground and when Cruden hit the drop goal there was a palpable letting go of the tension so many had been carrying as I think at that stage they believed the AB's would go on and win. The moment of the match for me was when Kaino grabbed Ioane and lifted him off the ground and carried him backwards just when he looked certain to score - huge strength and to my mind Kaino is the player of the tournament.

As I said in the lead up to the game, I think more people were worried by the fact that logically we should win rather than anything the Aussies might be able to do.

I for one, as I said, was very confident we would win and win well and I even said by 10 to 15 points (in fact we should have won by more if a few kicks had gone over). Some might say this was arrogant of me, however I do think NZ'ers get a bit caught up in worring about the wrong things and not focusing on the positives and our strengths and looking at the opposition rationally - Quade Cooper is a perfect example as so many people were saying he was due a good one and my response was why? he hadn't shown any reasons throughout the RWC to suggest he would play well and with the pressure we would be able to exert on the Aussies forwards and Genia he wasn't at all likely to play better than he already had in the tournament (might have been different if he'd been behind our pack ).

Also, although most Kiwi's are passionate rugby fans, unfortunately not all are particularly astute fans and are/were unable to see the things that logically meant we would win comfortably - these included:

1. The loss in Brisbane showing the AB's the way to beat Aus.

2. That in Brisbane three of our most influential players, Kaino, Read and Dagg either weren't playing or were injured early on.

3. That in Brisbane we fought back from 20 points down to equalise and that was against Aus at home in the form of their lives.

4. That McCaw is still the best in the world and that since the ruck/breakdown interpretations were amended to make it harder for the defending side to turn over ball McCaw has changed his style of play to become an all around player who usually racks up the most carries and tackles in the team - Pocock is a one trick pony and does neither of these things. The AB's also use other players now to contest at the breakdown e.g. Mealamu/Hore, Read, Whitelock, Conrad Smith & Kahui.

5. That Henry has worked for two years at ensuring our back three are the best under the high ball in the world, hence why there was no place in the squad originally for Gear. Still can't undertstand why Deans persisted in kicking to us other than they thought they couldn't get any width or penetration out wide, which in itself is a testament to the AB's defence.

6. That our tight five and the Aussie tight five are like a hot steel knife and soft butter - no chance of them competing.

7. And last but not least, home ground advantage.

So on to France - comfortable win for the AB's by 15 to 20+. I know everyone gets worried about the French, however the reasons not to are:

1. This AB team is super focused, relaxed and determined and will not give the French even a sniff.

2. Across the Park the AB's are clearly better man for man other than maybe at half-back - their loose forwards are the only combination that gets close.

3. I was at the '99 semi-final and that French team had some amazing players, especially in the backs - this French team can only dream of being that good.

4. Like I said about Cooper, there is nothing to even suggest that this French team have it in them to raise their game to the necessary level.

5. Recent history says this French time are awful - a loss to Aus by 50 in Paris, a loss to Italy in the 6N, almost losing to Japan in the pool stages, losing to Tonga and barely getting past a truly awful English side. Basing predictions on what occurred in '07 let alone '99 is just silly - we might as well say that Wales will beat us regularly because they once did 60 years ago.

6. And again last but not least, home ground advantage.

Should be an awesome occasion and can't wait to get back to Auckland on Sunday. I hope all the Kiwis just chill out, relax and enjoy the buildup and remember.....Piri's got it.

Sweet Otagolad. I find myself saying the same sorts of things on these boards only to get raspberrys- especially when we do drop matches. I think it will be 20+ for the same reasons.

Pity we didnt do that against Oz. As we could have reached the min. 20 for all WCup home matches. Now its 14...missed kicks ay...

It will be close but of course France will win

Yeah I don't even want us to give France a sniff. Annihilate them like in Paris in 04 and Lyon in 06.

Sorry I know a thriller would be great for the showpiece of international rugby but this is 24 years of hurt we're talking about so my bias is showing. Plus my heart may give out LOL. Have an extra time thriller next time.

I will be supporting The Blacks and I think it will be 40+ as well.

It's going to be a really one sided affair I think and will be a poor end (unless you're a Kiwi) to what has been a great tournament.

Well it could be poor from a contest point of view, but surely the sight of an All Black side on fire playing expansively with passion and accuracy would be something to behold for the neutral.

All that hurt will hopefully come out on Sunday. But jeepers France are bring totally written off. Danger time...

Disney, I don't think it is because people want to write off the french, but the all Blacks will not have any mental issues going into this game.

That Aussie game was a big hurdle for us Biltong. We proved to ourselves we are mentally tough, and I think that confidence can only help if France have a purple patch during the game.

Yup, France havent played well and they are seemingly a little less fit than most teams so there is naturally a lot of NZ "all the way" 40+ points difference etc... here, but lets not forget the battle of the mind - NZ are under pressure, its a potential home victory after 24 years of pain and its up against a poor team so it is everything but in the bag for them.. isnt it?... But isnt that actually the WORST position the AB mind can be in? To rematch with a team they beat convincingly earlier in the tournament? Thats in Frances favour! All france have to do is start well and the mental game will be ON and pressures like this can make a great team bad and a bad team great.... and we are referring to France here who are not shy of pulling back victories in the face of defeat. Couple that with the fact that ABs have just had a an enormous and physically demanding game against Australia and I think this world cup final will surprise us all. It is, after all, a World Cup Final.. nothing should be taken for granted.

Too right Astonal. This s**t isn't supposed to be easy!

As an Englishman living in France I am praying New Zealand win, not sure I could survive work the next day if France won

killer938 wrote:As an Englishman living in France I am praying New Zealand win, not sure I could survive work the next day if France won

Killer, don't you wonder how it was for French people when England won in 2003 ? One-way emotions hey ?
I tell you what : go back to your lovely country so we poor French can afford again to buy houses in our country as it was the case before half of England started paying mad prices here and prevent us from living our normal French life, without constant misunderstanding judgments made by foreigners who can't understand the roots of French mind .

phildange wrote:

killer938 wrote:As an Englishman living in France I am praying New Zealand win, not sure I could survive work the next day if France won

Killer, don't you wonder how it was for French people when England won in 2003 ? One-way emotions hey ?
I tell you what : go back to your lovely country so we poor French can afford again to buy houses in our country as it was the case before half of England started paying mad prices here and prevent us from living our normal French life, without constant misunderstanding judgments made by foreigners who can't understand the roots of French mind .

Jaysus Phildange... I think it's pretty clear that Killer was only offering a gentle joke about how big the celebrations would be. Hundreds of us said the same thing about having to live in England after they won the WC in 2003. You should be joining in the fun of being in a WC final ... not finding every opportunity to go off on one.

And your rant about housing prices and "foreigners" not understanding the roots of the "french mind" is nationalist nonsense and borderline xenophobic...

Try taking some deep breaths before you post vitriolic abuse at other posters. And this advice is coming from a francophile Irishman and historian of post-war france (who's lived in a number of areas of france for many years).

Nos na Gaoithe wrote:

phildange wrote:

killer938 wrote:As an Englishman living in France I am praying New Zealand win, not sure I could survive work the next day if France won

Killer, don't you wonder how it was for French people when England won in 2003 ? One-way emotions hey ?
I tell you what : go back to your lovely country so we poor French can afford again to buy houses in our country as it was the case before half of England started paying mad prices here and prevent us from living our normal French life, without constant misunderstanding judgments made by foreigners who can't understand the roots of French mind .

Jaysus Phildange... I think it's pretty clear that Killer was only offering a gentle joke about how big the celebrations would be. Hundreds of us said the same thing about having to live in England after they won the WC in 2003. You should be joining in the fun of being in a WC final ... not finding every opportunity to go off on one.

And your rant about housing prices and "foreigners" not understanding the roots of the "french mind" is nationalist nonsense and borderline xenophobic...

Try taking some deep breaths before you post vitriolic abuse at other posters. And this advice is coming from a francophile Irishman and historian of post-war france (who's lived in a number of areas of france for many years).

+1
good post Nos na Gaoithe - nothing to add - wasnt actually sure myself what roots of French mind exactly meant! let's try to keep a somehow positive debate around here.

Nos na Gaoithe

Thank you, at least you understood what I thought was clearly an attempt at humour.

Thankfully the people I work with here have a sense of humour unlike phildange. Just to clarify, in no way do I miss judge the French or have any hatred towards them, otherwise do you think I would live here? They took the mocking I dished out when we beat them in the 6 nations and I took it when they beat us in the quarter finals, its called banter. I actually happen to really like everyone I know here and I think you will find they think the same about me so please do not portray me as xenophobe when I have moved to your country and taken on all your cultures (if you want me to write in French I can) when you don't even know me.

Allez les bleus

OK boys but until now I haven't met a French rugby fan happy or proud about what happened in this WC . Everybody was angry against ML before the event, and since the beginning all real French people are either disgusted or embarrassed . I don't know what journalists say but I live in the true French rugby land, the south-west, and everyone keeps his tail between his legs about this French team performances . We don't like winning without panache and if France was able to beat the ABs without playing, no English worker in France would have to suffer because everybody here would shut up or apologize .
About the rest, it's true houses prices are now three times higher than 12 years ago, three times! and many many people can't buy houses in their own villages because of that . The madness which prevailed in Europe has been imported here, and English are the first responsibles for that .
When I read so many bad judgments about the French this or the French that by people who just could have stayed home to avoid this nuisance ( and believe me there are lots on the internet ) i'm bitter .
The French rugby team is French, and there are very old reasons why French are like they are, a permanent paradox and a melting of contradictions . To understand French society and behaviour a solid historical, linguistic and political knowledge is necessary .

After watching 14 man Wales batter France about back and fore for 60 minutes, creating more than enough opportunities to win the game, without our captain/our best tighthead and starting fly-half.....

... I actually consider this game as much as a formality as can be.

Not sure why France are considered to have this one performance in them, I've seen nothing for the past year to suggest it at all. Not saying they're unworthy finalists (any team who gets there has done so by winning when its mattered), but world cup winners dont lose to Tonga a few weeks before.

Stop them scoring in their undoubtedly good 10/20 minute period and they'll crumble to NZ at Eden Park in the final of the world cup.

And to be fair lads, its about time billy was added to that cabinet of yours.

But, as a neautral, I'm hoping for a great game, and hopefully a game where the talking will focus entirely on the rugby at the end of it.

Phildange, if you come on these boards, expect to see the ugly side of people´s perceptions about your country regardless of your nationality.

I lived in France for more than three years and have been living in Spain for 6. France is not the only country to have experienced horrendous speculation. But it´s easy to point the blame at the English. But who sold those homes to them at inflated prices? It´s not a one-way process and Spain too has seen exponential growth in house prices. I didn´t see many people complaining when they were doubling the value of their houses in less than two years. There is a collective responsibility you´re failing to appreciate there.

As for your statement about true rugby land, it seems that rampant provincialism can be added to your xenophobia. The south west is undoubtedly the heartland of French rugby but suggesting that any other region of France can´t comment on rugby is nonsensical.

Just take a chill pill and soak up this week leading up to the World Cup final. Your team is in the final and all form goes out the window now. It´s a one-off match. Best concentrate your efforts on supporting the team rather than trying to take on les putains rosbifs or anyone else who has a so-called go at France.

To pull the debate back to Rugby WC Final type chat Im going to add that France defended 28 Phases of attack from the Welsh team right at the end of the game when it mattered most, despite being run off their feet and without giving away a penalty. The French team has heart, gotta give them that. It wasnt their fault that the Welsh captain unfortunately over cooked his tackle, and then Wales didn't close the opportunity before them.

All being said I would be happy to see the home nation win infront of their fans and country,they deserve it. Its going to be a great final for Rugby.

Gotta keep ticking the points over. 3 after 3 after 3. If we do that and France start rushing up to prevent dropkicks that can present an opportunity in itself.

France will have to score two tries I think. They did that last time and knocked us out. NZ just have to keep their intensity and discipline.

Astonal wrote:To pull the debate back to Rugby WC Final type chat Im going to add that France defended 28 Phases of attack from the Welsh team right at the end of the game when it mattered most, despite being run off their feet and without giving away a penalty. The French team has heart, gotta give them that. It wasnt their fault that the Welsh captain unfortunately over cooked his tackle, and then Wales didn't close the opportunity before them.

All being said I would be happy to see the home nation win infront of their fans and country,they deserve it. Its going to be a great final for Rugby.

To reiterate though, that 28 phase defense when they were out on their feet, was because they had been run ragged by a 14 man wales for 60 minutes, without their starting tighthead/flyhalf/openside. By then that welsh side had created enough opportunities to win the game by 7+.

I dont hold any grudges about the semi-final game, Im just trying to point out that NZ, in the final, at home, with all the expectation and in the form they're in will be another class to that 14 man wales side that France coped with.

However, the French are more likely than any other team in world rugby to pull out one of "those performances", I just havent seen anything in them other than 10/20 minute periods to suggest that they are capable of doing it in this world cup. But fingers crossed they do and we have a game on our hands!

I agree with you Comfort, especially the bit about having fingers crossed for a good WC Final to be on our hands.

I guess the point Im making is that despite France not proving they can play well thus far, doesn't mean they wont on world cup final day. For example:
Argentina were not amazing throughout, but they were against the ABs. Tonga we not amazing throughout but they were INCREDIBLE against France.
Samoa we not amazing throughout, but were INCREDIBLE against South Africa (in the second half)

and more worrying:
Wales were amazing throughout, but weren't against France
South Africa were (almost) amazing throughout, but werent against Australia despite having all the possession possible.
ABs have been amazing throughout, but Argentina had suitable pressure on them for most of the game, and the result didn't fairly reflect the game at all.

Etc etc.

But like you, I just want a good final and the deserved winners to have the cup.

absolutely astonal, no team gets into the world cup final by mistake, they've won when they've needed too, however unimpressively, winnings what matters though!

and like we've all said, if anyone in world rugby is going to turn it on for this game, its going to be france...

..its just, they way they've been playing in the large hasnt been close to their usual standards and im not sure if they can just turn it on.

However, their french, from the ridiculous to the sublime and vice versa, that and they give NZ the heebie-jeebies in the cup

Some items to give NZ the heebie jeebies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUS8FfW8hOg
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw-9ZMfwiIc


the best ever
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTwTi-UeQ7s

The only NH country to win a series in New Zealand....

Could be one of those Newbie, defo. But you could also drag up the 45-6 win in Paris 2004, 54-7 in Wellington 1999, 47-3 in Lyon 2006, jeepers they can go from the sublime to the ridiculous. Think I said before the trick is to keep the score ticking over, with dropkicks, penalties, whatever. It's when the ABs stagnate on the scoreboard (the first 20 after halftime is critical) when France feel that they can do something special. Their heads must be kept down.

for the first time ever i want france to win, cos i just put a bet on them.

disneychilly wrote:Could be one of those Newbie, defo. But you could also drag up the 45-6 win in Paris 2004, 54-7 in Wellington 1999, 47-3 in Lyon 2006, jeepers they can go from the sublime to the ridiculous. Think I said before the trick is to keep the score ticking over, with dropkicks, penalties, whatever. It's when the ABs stagnate on the scoreboard (the first 20 after halftime is critical) when France feel that they can do something special. Their heads must be kept down.

Absolutely...disney...in fact any betting man looking at this would put their life savings on an ABs win....

I think the real France was the first 20mins against New Zealand in the pool game. I also think that it was Carter who tore them apart in the following 15....who is missing next weekend. Plus the AB forwards wont get as much physical dominance as they did against Aus.

As was noted somewhere else...

France think New Zealand rugby is the best in the world...the ABs are as revered in some areas in France as they are in New Zealand...so they absolutely love and fear the Abs at the same time...to beat the ABs is the ultimate for a French rugby player...just imagine what beating them in a world cup final would mean for them...

I dunno DC set up one try for sure, but Nonu carved them up for the first and I don't think DC set up the other. Of course we'll miss him but we can be heartened by Cruden's display. He is a very good running 10 and France would ignore him at their peril. He had a couple of darts and broke the line last weekend as Australia assumed he'd just shovel the ball on.

Dagg is irrestistible and NZ could do well bringing him into the line as much as possible. Expect a lot of Kaino-Nonu 1-2 punches to hit Parra, if not the first time the second. Dusautoir likes to roam wide as he's a tackling machine so a try like Jane's could be on again.

Yeah...Nonu played extremely well in that game. I dont think France will ignore him they will of course test him out a little.

For the pool game France got caught out with a couple of mismatches (forwards v backs) and if they get that right their defensive line will be tighter.

They will also try to take their points I think and while they were going hell for leather for a try in the pool game I expect them to keep the scoreboard ticking over as well.

I am thoroughly looking forward to this final. I think that France are the only NH team capable of beating the ABs and I think that its going to be a lot closer than everyone thinks...

DOD wrote:I am thoroughly looking forward to this final. I think that France are the only NH team capable of beating the ABs and I think that its going to be a lot closer than everyone thinks...

Option 1.

Option 2. France are lamentable, decide not to turn up and get absolutely blown away by the ABs.

Smart money has to be on the latter but what does everyone always say about France, they can beat anyone on their day you don't know which team is going to show up

The dont know which team is going to turn up is a fallacy really Gatts, they have the most consistent record in the six nations. They have beaten the ABs in NZ in the last couple of years. They have won the games they had to in the WC and now are in the final.

I think a very predictable France will turn up. I still think NZ are going to win I just think its going to be a lot closer than people think.

I disagree entirely.

France's reputation for being mercurial is well documented and based in their ability to play against form in a predictably unpredictable way

Their consistency at 6Ns does not detract from their ability to come out one week and play like geniuses and then the next go entirely to sleep.

Par example, losing to italy.

Ah well...yet another thing we will have to agree to disagree about. When France have something to go for they are very focused..

That i agree on!

which is why i added the other stereotype which is usually Wales excuse but i think really suits France...if there is one team that could do it against the odds and in light of their almost anti rugby performance against Wales, it is France.

i for one hope they do it

It will be fascinating .

The facts are France have won at Eden Park in 1994,and Dunedin 2009.
That side was without Carter,McCaw,Ali Williams,and Conrad Smith,the following week they lost to the All Blacks.That AB side had only Conrad Smith back.
The All Blacks have only been behind once in this tournament ,briefly to Canada by 3 points.
History and how you got to the final means nothing,France have had an easier road than NZ.They have an extra days rest,and not the bruised bodies the All Blacks have.
Make no mistake France,have the side who CAN win the RWC but will they.
The Players are playing for themselves not there Coach,if they get an early lead.
NZ MIGHT start fearing a repeat of previous failures,BUT this AB side is a very powerful unit.
NOT as individuals but as a TEAM,unlike other sides in the RWC they can expect 50% possesion at least.
With that they have the backs to finish the job,there are two scenario`s it will be one way traffic for the AB`s,or it will be a close run thing.
In my opinion it will be the latter and I hope an AB win but it will be close.

In looking at the 99 side, no team could have beaten that AB side from 24-10 down after Lomu had stomped all over them then run through them in the first half. Not even Oz or SA at the time.

France came back in a blitz of hair raising high octane tries scored from 60-80 metres out.

So players from the same country have won before despite the same ridiculous odds they face this weekend.

But this team hasnt...and their problem is they have too.

That said. Surprise is no longer on their side. French teams have cost NZ two potential world cups and Henry Smith McCaw Larsen and a few others were there the last time they did it.....pain...

No need for any other motivation for this match. Time to put the ghosts back where they came from methinks. The AB's will be ruthless this weekend, primarily because its France, they're not the same players, but they are wearing the same jerseys...

I don't even think it will be close. AB's will be playing this for Kiwi's and AB supporters alone. Playing for all the support and misery we've had to put up with for 24 years without a title...