The Tigers after a wretched start

A side desperate after the RWC.

Leicester may have had an awful start, but they are far too good a side to be written off. I think it will be very tough to get a top 2 finish, but I still firmly believe they will finish in the top 4.

There are some decent youngsters coming through and making a decent impact, issues are that there isn't enough of them and some of the squad players are just not up to scratch. Hopefully the big guns will come back and help the talented youngsters turn it around.

How many players do we get back? Including the best fly half in the country? I think results will improve significantly in about a months time, once everyone is back in the swing of it. Cue a top 4 finish, win the semi final then lose in the final.

Top 4 and a good European Cup run (victory in HEC wouldn't surprise me)

The biggest problem for Leicester isn't your academy boys, it's that some of your second choice first teamers are playing well below par. Especially it seems any one in the 9-13 axis except Ford and twelvetrees, but they can't do it all themselves. Grindal and Staunton were just horr

And after that Scarlets match i'd be looking at the coaches as well. Has Cockerill had an easy ride with the talented squad and now we're seeing his true skills when Tigers are on equal footing with other teams?

And after that Scarlets match i'd be looking at the coaches as well. Has Cockerill had an easy ride with the talented squad and now we're seeing his true skills when Tigers are on equal footing with other teams?.

I wouldn't read to much into the Scarlets game as I think there was only two starters over the age of 25 and they were Hawkins and Parling. A very young team with only Morris at fullback the only first team back. Symons and Rolston made their first team debuts. I'm not sure how Tigers are now on an 'equal footing' with other teams but there has been question marks over the coaching set up for a while now. Particularly in reference to the defence.

yappysnap wrote:The biggest problem for Leicester isn't your academy boys, it's that some of your second choice first teamers are playing well below par. Especially it seems any one in the 9-13 axis except Ford and twelvetrees, but they can't do it all themselves. Grindal and Staunton were just horr

And after that Scarlets match i'd be looking at the coaches as well. Has Cockerill had an easy ride with the talented squad and now we're seeing his true skills when Tigers are on equal footing with other teams?

It's a conundrum Yappy,

It had seemed that everything in the garden was pretty rosy. A large, thriving and reasonably productive academy. A profitable accounts book via relatively large crowds and sponsorship deals etc. driven through by success on the park.

Maybe it is the coaching issue (much as I tend to be in denial on the possibility that the 'Tigers' Way' may have been surpassed). I can see no semblance of performance on the pitch during the RWC and that which is to Tigers' fans' eyes is normal.

Is there a consistent coaching model going down through the club? Not that I can see.

There is seemingly no comparison with the style of play between those that have be fielded in Sep/Oct and that which is expected - particularly and glaringly in defence.

Irrespective that with the eleven (later twelve with Waldrom) calls on the RWC and the random injury list - it's an appalling start of season.

Sam,

By equal footing i meant not having a whole bunch of world class players at your disposal and having to make do with average and better then average prem players as well as talented youngsters.

As to your team on Sat all of these players have prem experience and are the equivalent of many other teams first squad players: Grindal, Staunton, Parling, Skivington, hawkins, Slater, kitchener. Would all get in to most other clubs squads, some would be definite starters.

Then you have talented youngsters like Ford and Harrison, Niles Morris, Tom youngs and Pienaar.

It's not a bad team at all and if you look at the other prem club teams on the weekend it's very similar to their's.

So why the hammering then?
Well it either comes down to the quality of your academy (which i don't think is a problem) the tactics & coaching (there didn't seem to be any tactics and coaching extended to miss every tackle and knock on) or else the morale of the team is so low after the run of poor games the players just don't want to play for the shirt any more.

I do think that the setup their at Tigers must have problems, you have a lot of talent and a fortress of a home but can't buy a win at the moment.

Portney

And even if things do get a lot better and the wins start coming when all the international players come back, is this again just hiding the problems in the coaching team?

Are wins coming because of these players, rather then because of anything else? So could these players win even without a coach?

The two big games you lost last season against Leinster and Saracens were very winnable. If those results were down to the players then the staff, then perhaps with a better coaching setup those loses may well have been wins.

The two big games you lost last season against Leinster and Saracens were very winnable. If those results were down to the players then the staff, then perhaps with a better coaching setup those loses may well have been wins.

There has been murmerings on the offy boards for a while that some of the coaching isn't at the necessary levels and the structure of the team (particularly in defence) has suffered in the last year or so. When Meyer left Cockerill was reported to have allowed Geordan and Mauger to remodel the backs division which was slightly neglected at the time. The result was a return to brutal gain line rugby the Tigers are famous for mixed with a little more flair. Since Mauger left, Geordan has had big injuries and the spark of the Tigers attack has been wavering a little.

Similarly other teams are improving their packs through good coaching and we are no longer able to run rough shod over every teams forwards and starve them of decent ball. This has been hindered by us missing pretty much the entire first team but a distinct lack of passion and organisation on the field is becomming a genuine concern, I've mentioned on here previously about the bizarre lack of a defence coach and it is really time we invested in one.

This interview with Tom Youngs is a very interesting read (sounds like a captains interview to me);

http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/Tom-Youngs-hits-Leicester-Tigers-lacklustre-LV/story-13580713-detail/story.html

By equal footing i meant not having a whole bunch of world class players at your disposal and having to make do with average and better then average prem players as well as talented youngsters.

We are limited by the same constraints as everyone else I fail to see how removing the upper half (possibly more) of our wage cap makes everything fair. It's not like your beloved Quins have waved goodbye to all their super stars (I doubt very much the likes of Evans, Robshaw etc are on peanuts). Tigers maintain a very good squad but sadly (well sadly for me) the days when it was head and shoulders above everybody elses are gone.

On the coaching front, are Leicester a bit behind the times? I only wonder because the training there is famous for being a full on match with all the aggression that goes with it.

I know all teams do full contact drills but as other aspects of the amateur game have disappeared, should this too? or at least be toned down so there is more of a focus on tactics and defensive drills etc? It might also help with a reduction in injuries.

Bathman the full contact training and the number of training sessions were reduced for the start of the this season due to Cockerill's concerns over squad numbers. They full contact sessions Tigers are famous for were only brought back after the defeat to Sarries as Cockers deemed the defence to have been to pathetic and was ready to risk an injury or two if it meant less limp wristedness in the contact area.

The injuries have generally come from games (for instance Brookes, Skivington and White all picked up injuries vs Falcons) or were long term injuries that have required surgery (ala Newby and Crane). The club have usually been quite forward thinking when it came to coaches, they were the first AP club to appoint a dedicated breakdown coach (Herring who has now gone and not been properly replaced). Currently I think the set up is a little stagnant and needs a breath of fresh air from outside to add to the good stuff that is still there. A defence coach would be the main focus though a slowly increasing chunk of fans would like to see a new backs coach to replace O'Connor.

I wonder when we will hear the first suggestion of MJ to replace Cockerill?

Can't see that happening to be honest as with England the problems are less with the head coach and more with the coaching staff (or lack there of for Tigers). Wouldn't be suprised if Johnno took some sort of role at Tigers but he was a manager not a coach for England where as Cockerill was an assistant coach for a long time before becomming the head coach at Tigers.

Sam

Ok, fair enough, i'll admit I didnt really know what I was talking about!

I'm sure now the internationals are back you will start to climb the table, your squad is just too strong to be in the bottom half for too much longer.
Sarries are looking ominiously like the team to beat though I think.

To be fair it was a legitimate question and you wouldn't have seen the news reports as they were in the Leicestershire local paper. The point was clearly one worth raising because clearly it was a concern to the Tigers management.

I think Sarries defence and kicking capabilities make them a very hard team to play against, the kick chase is phenominal. Adding the attacking instincts of Hodgson to a backline that has pace and power in abundance is just the icing on the cake though Hodgson is a weak point in the defence I can't see that it will matter once Burger returns.

Well my point was that from the outside it does seem like a bit of a throwback to past times. After seeing the game against Sarries I can see why there was a need to fire your guys up though!

On Sarries, I was at the Rec for the game a couple of weeks ago. Really, Sarries shouldnt reallyhave won that, their defence was good but apart from a great break by Short their game plan was based on kicking the penalties. But they did win and thats exaclty the sort of thing that seperates out the best teams. Similarly a tigers team od old would probably have won against Bath a few weeks later without necessarily dominating the game.

Bathman_in_London wrote:Well my point was that from the outside it does seem like a bit of a throwback to past times. After seeing the game against Sarries I can see why there was a need to fire your guys up though!

On Sarries, I was at the Rec for the game a couple of weeks ago. Really, Sarries shouldnt reallyhave won that, their defence was good but apart from a great break by Short their game plan was based on kicking the penalties. But they did win and thats exaclty the sort of thing that seperates out the best teams. Similarly a tigers team od old would probably have won against Bath a few weeks later without necessarily dominating the game.

I was at the double header and watched Wasps v Sarries.

Wasps showed how to beat them but it's tough. Rock hard defence that has to rush up and push them back coupled with taking and points on offer when they turn up.

You have to score tries versus them as a kicking duel could be deadly.

When Wasps did this you could see Sarries were scuppered, they kept kicking or just throwing the ball along the line but as long as you have that try buffer in place and keep up the line speed they wont be able to catch up.

It's very tough but doable for sure.