What a difference a referee makes.

For many years now I had to listen to the criticism of South African rugby from all corners of the world. If it wasn’t the New Zealanders it would be the Australians. During this world cup even Warren Gatland had voiced his opinions of how South Africa plays rugby.

Being one of the lone crusaders for the Springboks cause on the old 606 and also now on 606v2 there were many times where I had to bite my lip and rather walk away from threads when mostly one eyed posters and some who just followed the most voiced opinions could not or would not see the other side of the coin.

Yes, before anyone starts with South Africa should have adapted or should have won in spite of certain circumstances that weren’t in their favour I am going to produce some facts. The world cup for us is over and there is nothing we can do about that, but that certainly doesn’t mean I should just accept what have transpired during the world cup and just carry on.

After watching the semi final of New Zealand vs Australia match today, my feelings of anger and disappointment has only elevated and not in the least dissipated.

So many of the match situations between this match and South Africa vs Australia are similar that it only adds to my feeling of utter disappointment about the result of a week ago.

In fact some of the match statistics between these two matches favour South Africa even more than what it did New Zealand today. But there is one major undeniable difference, Craig Joubert.

Within the first 10 minutes of the semi final Pocock was penalised twice for contesting illegally at the breakdown. That immediately lay down the parameters that will be allowed by Craig Joubert who by all accounts had a very good match.

In stark contrast to this Pocock and his cohorts was never regulated during the match against South Africa, and there for had the run of the park.

Now there are two main reasons why teams with possession and territorial advantage win matches.

The first reason is they maintain pressure on the opposition and by attaining quick ball can catch defences whilst they are unorganised, thereby creating gaps to score from.

The second reason is because if the opposition transgress because of the pressure they are punished by the referee. This in turn allows the dominating team opportunity to score points via penalty goals.

When the breakdown is not regulated, it allows the team under pressure to go into rucks without regard of the laws, without the fear of persecution by the referee, and thus creating an unfair contest.

What adds to this disappointment is the fact that South Africa ran more than twice the meters New Zealand did, they made more runs, more passes, more offloads and spent more time in Australia’s red zone than the All Blacks did. But crucially they conceded almost twice as many turn overs due to two main factors, Bryce Lawrence and the injury to Heinrich Brussow.

Yes I reiterate our world cup has run its course and New Zealand will go into a final that they will in all likely hood win with ease. I think they will be deserved champions as no team they have faced during this world cup got close enough to put them under any pressure.

All during this tournament I had to listen to pundits believing that New Zealand are more afraid of Australia than South Africa, and during this period it first surprised me and then started to amaze me that a team who has won 11 out of 14 tests in between the two world cups against Australia were more concerned about Australia than a South African team who has won 5 out of 11 tests against them.

I said from the start that New Zealand would win this world cup and never wavered in my belief. But hell South Africa would have given them one hell of a game.

I have come to the conclusion that no person as a lone voice can take on the masses on any sports forum, simply because the one eyed posters will stand together and then the sheep will follow. Pretty soon it is just another biased view where very few can see through the mist of preconceived ideas and bias toward the Springboks.

I for one have decided that it doesn’t really matter how anyone sees this post, or how they will react to it. This is the last time I will talk about this subject and will then walk away hoping that South Africa will at last get their house in order and stop handicapping themselves with internal politics and nepotism.

So fire away, agree or disagree, hard luck to Wales yesterday, your team didn’t deserve to lose. Congratulations to New Zealand, you have an awesome team.

Biltong, I feel the pain. Those two penalties against Pocock I actually thought of you mate.

Just one thing from my post. I don´t doubt for a second that SA would´ve given us a hell of a game. We could´ve well lost. But what we fear from Australia is not the team that we saw today. I think Taylorman put it best that we can expect from SA out of 10 a consistent 7 to 9. Australia´s average would be lower than that but what we Kiwis fear are the days when they play a 12. They missed Beale out there today but their backline is capable of slicing any team apart. Their forwards though don´t have the power of SA.

You can prepare for SA in what they´re going to throw at you. But the broken field play that Australia is capable of playing is slightly more difficult to prepare for.

I think with the sacking of PDV and a decent Bok coach, you have the players who can play a similar game to NZ. It is a myth that the Boks can´t run the ball. When you guys do run it, it scares the living daylights out of me.

So chin up mate and let´s see what a real coach who can keep out the politics do with this team. kia kaha

Wales are all too aware of the vagueries of refereeing!Sadly the better team does not always win due to the ref's interpretations.It is not right.It is not fair.What should be straightforward isnt.Some Fijian speared your cenre after he had passed the ball and wasnt red carded.The rest is history.If it is your time,it is your time.It wasnt your time,it wasnt our time.You have won the WC,we have only got a faint sniff twice!

Bilton I sympathize but the last thing needed is another referee thread. As with Wales you didnt take your opportunities. But if you feel better feel free to blame the ref. It appears to be catching

Biltong is right , i thought pretty much the same while watching the game this morning.

I think the referees have taken up far too many of the headlines this world cup

Heya Biltong, yeah SA would have given us a hell of a go today as we wouldn't have dominated the collisions. You guys make no bones about how you're gonna play-you're like, we're gonna play like this and it's up to you to handle it. The confidence you have in your gameplan is intimidating in itself without mentioning the physical presence you guys have. I've seen many a test in SA where you play at a frenzied pace and NZ and Oz struggle to handle that at times because when it is accurate it is devastating.

I hope Joubert gets the final. Both teams got the opportunity to provide good ball provided they broke the gain line and played with urgency and accuracy. Let's have the same again this weekend.

DOD wrote:Bilton I sympathize but the last thing needed is another referee thread. As with Wales you didnt take your opportunities. But if you feel better feel free to blame the ref. It appears to be catching

At least your lot had no reason to blame the ref as your lot were not good enough.Clearly you cannot imagine how it feels.One day whenIreland are competitive you may well find out what it is like.

HD tellys, replays during coverage, replays after coverage, interent buzz, importance,pressure,money, fitter players , are all the reasons why we are witnessing more mistakes in team games- the simple fact is that refs in rugby/football are effectively judges(they have to make on spot decisions, human nature tells us they will get decisions wrong) without even having as good a view as the 10mill plus of us watching the game in the comfort of our own home- lol!!!!

ITS NOT THE REFS FAULT- its the system we use in officating games, its the fact we all see more of the game than we used to, etc , etc- time to move with the times- use more tech- give the reffs more help

So taff..what exactly have you won? Its pretty clear what the record books will say in the future.

Taffineastbourne wrote:

DOD wrote:Bilton I sympathize but the last thing needed is another referee thread. As with Wales you didnt take your opportunities. But if you feel better feel free to blame the ref. It appears to be catching

At least your lot had no reason to blame the ref as your lot were not good enough.Clearly you cannot imagine how it feels.One day whenIreland are competitive you may well find out what it is like.

Taff

You never lost because of the ref, even with 14 men you dominated the game. You lost because you left 11 eminently kickable points out there. it wasn't Rolland who failed to convert them, and he even gave you a lifeline right at the end with a penalty that should have gone the other way.

Taffineastbourne wrote:At least your lot had no reason to blame the ref as your lot were not good enough.Clearly you cannot imagine how it feels.One day whenIreland are competitive you may well find out what it is like.

A snide, bitter, ridiculous comment. At least attempt to show the class the Welsh players showed in defeat yesterday. Do I need to remind you of the game we lost in Cardiff due to a poor refereeing decision that allowed a try that clearly wasn't? Hold on, we have 30 minutes to win that match and didn't. Can't blame anyone but ourselves. Wales losing had nothing to do with Hook and Jones missing kicks, Jones cowardly bottling from lining up drop kick opportunities, a lack of leadership, composure or accuracy? Of course not. Let's blame someone else sure. Whatever makes you feel better.

Biltong, I share your sense of frustration. However, despite of the refereeing you should have won the match. The match was lost because of poor decision making and opportunities blundered. You said so yourself in the aftermath of the match against Australia.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Biltong, I share your sense of frustration. However, despite of the refereeing you should have won the match. The match was lost because of poor decision making and opportunities blundered. You said so yourself in the aftermath of the match against Australia.

Yes, i did say that and I stick to that. This thread is about the what ifs and the comparison of last week and this week.

Everyone agrees with me about the fact that SA should have won inspite of the situation, but just about most of the posters here has a hard time acknowledging the impact of playing the second best team in the world who had free reign at the break down.

I am as much peeved off about our "gentlemanly" behaviour by not sorting out the breakdown on our terms as I am about Bryce Lawrence putting us in this position.

Perhaps this is just something that happens in club rugby in SA, but if you are going to transgress laws and aren't stopped by the referee, a "bakkies botha" lookalike will teach you how to play the game.

someone said earlier that the referees need help.

I agree with that, the fact is it does not help the IRB to change the laws of the game to make it faster and more exciting for attacking teams, but then have referees who firstly doesn't have the necessary tools or ability to keep up with the speed of the game.

I am illustrating the difference between two referees with similar dominant stats by two teams against Australia, and two different outcomes. If we had a referee the ilk of Craig Joubert, I can almost guarantee you a different result.

It has been abundantly clear that there has been a huge range in the standard of the referees at this tournament. There have been some poor decisions from a number of them, but ultimately I don't honestly think any referee has cost a team a game with their performance.

Their will always be human error, but I do hope that the IRB sit down and and honestly assess all of their referees after tournament and dispense with the ones who are not up to refereeing international matches.

I think the refereeing has not always been perfect, but it's been good. The bad refereeing performances get the press, but I can only really think of two games- South Africa vs Samoa and South Africa vs Australia- where it was a case of talented referees underperforming. And then lots of games where the refereeing has been good, a few average and probably a few other poor ones. Overall, I think if you said refereeing has been a problem I couldn't agree. Today I thought Joubert had a really good game and my only criticism of Alain Rolland is he didn't handle the scrum well enough. The rulebook shows he got the biggest call of the game spot on and I can't believe it's still up for discussion.

Oh, and Taff... cheer up! Or should that be 'Man Up'?

Notch wrote:I think the refereeing has not always been perfect, but it's been good. The bad refereeing performances get the press, but I can only really think of two games- South Africa vs Samoa and South Africa vs Australia- where it was a case of talented referees underperforming. And then lots of games where the refereeing has been good, a few average and probably a few other poor ones. Overall, I think if you said refereeing has been a problem I couldn't agree. Today I thought Joubert had a really good game and my only criticism of Alain Rolland is he didn't handle the scrum well enough. The rulebook shows he got the biggest call of the game spot on and I can't believe it's still up for discussion.

Oh, and Taff... cheer up! Or should that be 'Man Up'?

+1

I also thought Walsh was excellent in the England/France game (best thing about the game!) and I never thought I would say that

This constant harping on about referees is a bit odd to be honest.

biltongbek wrote:Yes, i did say that and I stick to that. This thread is about the what ifs and the comparison of last week and this week.

Everyone agrees with me about the fact that SA should have won inspite of the situation, but just about most of the posters here has a hard time acknowledging the impact of playing the second best team in the world who had free reign at the break down.

I am as much peeved off about our "gentlemanly" behaviour by not sorting out the breakdown on our terms as I am about Bryce Lawrence putting us in this position.

Perhaps this is just something that happens in club rugby in SA, but if you are going to transgress laws and aren't stopped by the referee, a "bakkies botha" lookalike will teach you how to play the game.

someone said earlier that the referees need help.

I agree with that, the fact is it does not help the IRB to change the laws of the game to make it faster and more exciting for attacking teams, but then have referees who firstly doesn't have the necessary tools or ability to keep up with the speed of the game.

I am illustrating the difference between two referees with similar dominant stats by two teams against Australia, and two different outcomes. If we had a referee the ilk of Craig Joubert, I can almost guarantee you a different result.

Certainly Biltong I was not having a go at you- I have always found you impartial both here and on the old fabled 606, and are my favourite source of South African provincial news.

Let me ask you this, have you ever refereed a match before? I am a qualified referee, not that I do it much. Long story short, my school 1st XV made me and two other guys do a course because our discipline during matches in rucks and mauls was shocking. I am still under 30 (27) and play at a good level so don't referee too much. I refereed a school match the other day and even at that level the breakdown is a mess. It is difficult to see hands on the ground, some players are good at hiding their indiscretions, especially when you are in a position when they can exploit 'blind-spots.' That was at school level. Have you any possible idea how difficult at international level. Fans think with all the slow-mo, close ups, replays and fancy close ups that it is easy. i can assure you it isn't. That shouldn't excuse referees who get it wrong. But let's face it, how long has McCaw got away with it. You know why? Because he has brains and knows when to exploit referee's positioning to his advantage. So does Pocock. South Africa unfortunately, for all your strenghts, intelligence at the breakdown isn't one of them.

Ozzy3213 wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:

DOD wrote:Bilton I sympathize but the last thing needed is another referee thread. As with Wales you didnt take your opportunities. But if you feel better feel free to blame the ref. It appears to be catching

At least your lot had no reason to blame the ref as your lot were not good enough.Clearly you cannot imagine how it feels.One day whenIreland are competitive you may well find out what it is like.

Taff

You never lost because of the ref, even with 14 men you dominated the game. You lost because you left 11 eminently kickable points out there. it wasn't Rolland who failed to convert them, and he even gave you a lifeline right at the end with a penalty that should have gone the other way.

As I have already posted on the match thread.I think.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:At least your lot had no reason to blame the ref as your lot were not good enough.Clearly you cannot imagine how it feels.One day whenIreland are competitive you may well find out what it is like.

A snide, bitter, ridiculous comment. At least attempt to show the class the Welsh players showed in defeat yesterday. Do I need to remind you of the game we lost in Cardiff due to a poor refereeing decision that allowed a try that clearly wasn't? Hold on, we have 30 minutes to win that match and didn't. Can't blame anyone but ourselves. Wales losing had nothing to do with Hook and Jones missing kicks, Jones cowardly bottling from lining up drop kick opportunities, a lack of leadership, composure or accuracy? Of course not. Let's blame someone else sure. Whatever makes you feel better.

Biltong, I share your sense of frustration. However, despite of the refereeing you should have won the match. The match was lost because of poor decision making and opportunities blundered. You said so yourself in the aftermath of the match against Australia.

I showed DOD all the respect that he deserves.

Notch wrote:I think the refereeing has not always been perfect, but it's been good. The bad refereeing performances get the press, but I can only really think of two games- South Africa vs Samoa and South Africa vs Australia- where it was a case of talented referees underperforming. And then lots of games where the refereeing has been good, a few average and probably a few other poor ones. Overall, I think if you said refereeing has been a problem I couldn't agree. Today I thought Joubert had a really good game and my only criticism of Alain Rolland is he didn't handle the scrum well enough. The rulebook shows he got the biggest call of the game spot on and I can't believe it's still up for discussion.

Oh, and Taff... cheer up! Or should that be 'Man Up'?

Dont deal in cliches,seems trite.I care about Rugby as it was important in the place that I grew up.In Abertillery men worked damn hard in the steel or the colliery and went out on a Saturday to express themselves in a sport that was perceived as being fair and equal.I laud those values and wish that they applied now.Shouldnt Rugby be as fair as it can be or you willing to take your chances?Every player in every game should be treated the same or am I deluded?

Your last sentence sums it up entirely taff..

biltongbek wrote:
I am illustrating the difference between two referees with similar dominant stats by two teams against Australia, and two different outcomes. If we had a referee the ilk of Craig Joubert, I can almost guarantee you a different result.

Hi ya Biltong,
Good to see you back.
This is exactly our position in 07. As far as were concerned with another ref we would have won. Simple as that. We also would have probably taken SA on in the final such were our results then- 3N champs and massive pool wins. But as you've found, it wasnt to be.

At least 30 points in penalties were left out on the field where we had the ball for almost the entire second half and our backline generally comprised of both AB and French backs. We tried to run it but were constantly cut down from offside positions- not one single penalty in the second half.

While SA fans were rolling on to their win we were left with what you have now- complete and utter dispair- and nothings changed- perhaps if people had listened then, something would have been done for this event, and SA might not be in this position. But no one listened to our moans then, and no ones listening now it seems. Everyone puts in down to 'luck of the draw' with refs.

What we found is in the end we just had to take it, and only time healed it for some of us (GG still has a little crisp on his shoulders but hopefully last night blew that one off).

I reckon its not the ref's fault anyway. There's too much complexity, too much pace etc for ref's to be 'perfect'. Combine with that the need to keep the match flowing and you put them in awful positions.

I don't know the answer as not everyone sees there's a problem until it happens to them. Then no one else listens so they move on and we're all back to square one.

Then it happens all over again...

You can't beat a referee. To be fair the refereeing standards may still be inconsistent in some ways, but at least the north and south hem referees look like they are refereeing the same sport at this RWC. The interpretations previously were like the difference between league and union.

Might as well do it the all blacks way and win through skill and talent.

SA weren't ready for the world cup. They were a shadow of the 07 vintage and have been for a while.

Let's hope you get a decent coach and get it together.

But ref or no ref oz were also a better team, with more skilful players throughout and a very talented coach.

DOD wrote:Your last sentence sums it up entirely taff..

Knew that your high intellect wouldnt let me down.Good lad!

Never mind Pocock being penalised, I actually saw McCaw being penalised - I think that is a very rare occasion! Although he obviously transgressed throughout the game, his blatant disregard of the rules were not as prevalent as they normally are!

In this age of technology, do we actually need on-field referees? could we get by with TMO's or is that too futureman?

Huwball wrote:Never mind Pocock being penalised, I actually saw McCaw being penalised - I think that is a very rare occasion! Although he obviously transgressed throughout the game, his blatant disregard of the rules were not as prevalent as they normally are!

You're a little behind the times mate. NZ have been hit by a high penalty count for the past couple of years - it appears that referees have read some of those articles frothing at the mouth about McCaw and pay extra attention to him

More seriously, McCaw has changed his game over the past 2 seasons. He now does a lot more ball carrying and tackling, and relatively less work at the breakdown.

Kiwi, I agree and to be fair he did have a hell of a game today - hat's off to him.

I think if the AB's play at 50% of their normal skill, they could beat this French side!

Huwball wrote:Kiwi, I agree and to be fair he did have a hell of a game today - hat's off to him.

I think if the AB's play at 50% of their normal skill, they could beat this French side!

Cheers for the compliments (on the AB's behalf ). But if the French play to what they're capable of (and they're overdue for a "special" game) the AB's will need everything they've got.

maestegmafia wrote:You can't beat a referee. To be fair the refereeing standards may still be inconsistent in some ways, but at least the north and south hem referees look like they are refereeing the same sport at this RWC. The interpretations previously were like the difference between league and union.

Might as well do it the all blacks way and win through skill and talent.

SA weren't ready for the world cup. They were a shadow of the 07 vintage and have been for a while.

Let's hope you get a decent coach and get it together.

But ref or no ref oz were also a better team, with more skilful players throughout and a very talented coach.

On that day in that match I strongly disagree with you.

biltongbek wrote:Being one of the lone crusaders for the Springboks cause on the old 606 and also now on 606v2 there were many times where I had to bite my lip and rather walk away from threads when mostly one eyed posters and some who just followed the most voiced opinions could not or would not see the other side of the coin.

I guess you will have to admit that it is not just everyone else that is "one eyed" on the board?

I have noticed since I predicted France will win against Wales you have a serious problem with anything I say, hence no need for further debate between us.

I think regardless of what nationality you come from Biltong, you´ll always cop some criticism Biltong. Australia are seen as the easiest team to beat in the 3N by many of the NH sides. NZ are chokers, always peak between World Cups and have never won anything important.

But whenever there is a SA NZ match there is always respect. No side in international rugby has come close to your record against the ABs. It´s a matter of keeping your faith in your boys and sticking up for them from some of the one-eyed nonsense that can sometimes go on here.