Scotland are in trouble

First topic message reminder :

After that world cup and pretty much zero depth to come through for a pretty old team i see nothing but heart ache for Scottish rugby,
Italy are ahead of them on player development and look set to over take Scotland in the next two seasons.

Wales and Ireland are looking good with young talented players coming through and of course France and England never will drop out of the world top eight due to depth and pedigree.

With Scotland's woes add Andy Robinsons negative and out dated playing style on penalty, drop goal ,kick chase and wait for mistake these younger fitter and far more skilful other home nation teams are going to punish Scotland.

What do you guys reckon?
I personally would hate to be proven right in a few years time because i have always had a soft spot for Scotland but one can't help but think the writing is on the wall.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Who do you suppose that Scotland gamble on from that list?

Grove - plays 13, tried by Scotland at 12 before, not a success. Currently playing ok at 13 for Worcester, nothing earth shattering.

Scott - only professional rugby thus far has been at 13, albeit with some success. If he continues to play as well, then I think he's a contender for the Scotland squad. Hopefully when NDL returns, he'll play 12 to NDL's 13.

Leonard - still a young amateur player. Playing for Edinburgh would be a big step.

Weir - a stand-off in each game I've ever seen him play, plus his distribution skills so far this season have been inconsistent at best.

Jackson - personally I think he has the skill set to play 12, but he's never played there. Probably the safest gamble of the lot given his demonstrated ability to cope with pressure at international level, but don't tell me you wouldn't prefer to see him there in a Glasgow jersey before a Scotland jersey. Also begs the next question, who will play 10 if Jackson plays 12?


Probably not as fiesty a rebuttal as you were expecting, but I still wouldn't play someone at 12 without him having played there at club level. Look at what happened to Toby Flood at the WC when picked at 12, a player with far greater abilities than any player we can call upon.

For me, Jackson and Scott would be the two to look at closely, but I'd still insist they play at least a couple of games at club level to prove themselves before I shelve Sean Lamont (who let's no forget has made a pretty decent fist of it at 12).

So this would be my point of disagreement - he makes a decent fist of playing 12 as an individual, but I'm afraid we have to admit does nothing for the outside backs, and therein lies our big problem

I agree with you Asbo. I think Sctoland have some excellent outside backs. Lamont at 12 does a job but negates your outside backs.

red_stag wrote:I agree with you Asbo. I think Sctoland have some excellent outside backs. Lamont at 12 does a job but negates your outside backs.

Steady, Staggy, let's not make a habit of this 'agreement' malarky, buddy!!

Then this is where coaches earn their corn. Sean Lamont is no more limited a distributor than Jamie Roberts, and only marginally more limited than D'Arcy, yet Ireland and Wales seen to come up with far more imaginative and creative ways of launching these guys than we do with Lamont.

Wrap around moves, mis-passes, dummies, chip kicks, offloads - you know, the sort of things "attack" coaches typically focus on.

If Wales can be a top notch attacking force with Roberts at 12, then why can't Scotland with Lamont at 12?

funnyExiledScot wrote:Then this is where coaches earn their corn. Sean Lamont is no more limited a distributor than Jamie Roberts, and only marginally more limited than D'Arcy, yet Ireland and Wales seen to come up with far more imaginative and creative ways of launching these guys than we do with Lamont.

Wrap around moves, mis-passes, dummies, chip kicks, offloads - you know, the sort of things "attack" coaches typically focus on.

If Wales can be a top notch attacking force with Roberts at 12, then why can't Scotland with Lamont at 12?

Might have to disagree on your comparisons

red_stag wrote:I agree with you Asbo. I think Scotland have some excellent outside backs. Lamont at 12 does a job but negates your outside backs.

Well I am going to jump on the 'slightly disagree'. We were actually most dangerous in the 6N with Lamont at 12.

before he started we all were calling DOOM, but he actually played well, off loaded in the tackle and generally distributed well. I remember we were all shocked!

I think SLamonts problem is long passes. I think he is very good at breaking tackles and pop passing - in fact I think he is our best at that. He just needs runners on his shoulder.

he is poorer at the longer pass, as he seems to struggle with the running and full distribution

Just my Opinion, so while not a long term solution, I think he can do a number for the next couple of years

ASBO - you think Roberts is a good distributor and creative force in the Welsh attack? It was only earlier this year that Welsh fans were calling for him to be dropped.

Roberts, like Lamont, is a 12 that needs to be used well. Whereas Phillips, Priestland and Hook can put him through gaps and into space, Parks and so far Jackson have been unable to do anything with Lamont other than hand him a standing start miles behind the advantage line.

Having had the (mis)fortune to watch them play live vs both Georgia and Argentina what i thought they lacked was a player or two who could provide the creativity needed to unlock tight defences.
To not be able to breach the Georgian defence at least once would be something that must concern Scottish rugby. To play 240 minutes without scoring a try must cause even greater concern.

Lamont often has tunnel vision when in possession, unfortunately and frequently does not see or 'feel' support players in the way that good ICs do. This is, admittedly, also a fault of support runners themselves.

Don't get me wrong, I am a big fan of biff runners like him but there's nobody that's played at IC for Scotland since Leslie that's had a complete skillset AND has executed at international level (before anyone throws Grove at me). Roberts is a lot more skilful, offloads and runs better lines than people here are giving him credit for.

Robinson has got nothing to lose by putting Weir or Ansbro in there. We need Jackson's tactical kicking at 10 as Weir's has been completely gash and has already led to one charge-down score against Glasgow this season.

George Carlin wrote:Robinson has got nothing to lose by putting Weir or Ansbro in there. We need Jackson's tactical kicking at 10 as Weir's has been completely gash and has already led to one charge-down score against Glasgow this season.

Nothing to lose except for rugby matches I guess.

Just looked on the Glasgow website and says Tom Ryder is only 6ft5 - is that really big enough for an international Lock?

RDW - Robinson will probably see him as the new Nines and bung him in at 6. Just what we need.

fES,

not sure about your criticism of Duncan Weir's distribution skills. That is ok it is his tactical kicking that is somewhat wayward and way off what it was last season. I think he is defo worth a gamble on though.

fES, some Schlong stats for you:

Oppo	Pos	Kick	Pass	Run	%Pass	Mts	ClnBrk	DefsBtn	OffLds	T/over
Eng	C	0	7	11	39%	25	0	1	2	3
Arg	W	1	1	13	7%	68	1	3	2	1
Geo	W	2	2	10	14%	66	1	4	1	2
Rom	C	0	6	10	38%	38	1	3	2	2
Ire	W	0	0	18	0%	108	1	4	0	2
Ita	C	2	10	13	40%	57	1	3	9	0
Eng	C	1	1	10	8%	27	0	0	1	1
Ire	C	1	2	18	10%	89	0	2	0	1
Wal	FB*	2	2	16	10%	162	2	5	1	0
Fra	C*	0	1	4	20%	35	1	2	1	0
	*=sub
			Avg		19%	68	0.8	2.7	1.9	1.2
			Avg as C		26%	45	0.5	1.8	2.5	1.2
			Avg offloads as C w/out Ita						1.2

All based on this year's 6Ns, warm-ups and RWC. Pretty grim reading tbh - as a wing or fullback, he has passed on avg 20% of the time vs just 26% as an IC in a key distributing role; not surprisingly he's made marginally less clean breaks as an IC, and has beaten less defenders in the more congested space. He has offloaded fractionally more on avg at 12, but remove the Italy warm-up game, and his avg is worse as a centre. But nevermind, his turnover stats are pretty consistent!! Mind you, I'd hate to see Morrison's stats I'd much prefer S Lamont to stick to the wing - he's got a massive heart when he pulls on the navy jersey and he can score tries from there

Where'd you got those from? Can you not do Morrison as well?

funnyExiledScot wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Robinson has got nothing to lose by putting Weir or Ansbro in there. We need Jackson's tactical kicking at 10 as Weir's has been completely gash and has already led to one charge-down score against Glasgow this season.

Nothing to lose except for rugby matches I guess.

Well if that's all that's stopping us...

Jeez, RDW, that took me 3 hours?!?! They're from ESPN

ASBO - as you know, I'm not a big stats man. He played really well at 12 in some of those 6 Nations games, no question.

Things like offloads, metres gained and clean breaks don't just reflect the player, they reflect the team.

As I mentioned above, Jamie Roberts is undoubtedly a top class 12, and he doesn't pass much either, other than slipping the odd pass out of the tackle. He'll look much better on your stats though, Wales give him front foot ball at pace, and allow him to pick angles.

Roberts passes on avg 35% of the time and D'Arcy 44%, altho both have lower offloads

26% versus 35% - not far apart really.

What makes one a creative distributor and the other a bosh merchant then??

funnyExiledScot wrote:We're having the same issues on the Scottish threads. Lots of posters saying how rubbish the incumbent players are, with little thought to the replacements. Either that, or suggestions for completely unproven kids to play, or for players to play positions at international level they never have at any other level of significance.

It's almost as if international rugby occurs in some sort of vacuum, distinct from club rugby.

No need to go greeting on the English threads now, fES!!

We've put bags of thought into identifying potential replacements - and I think that most of us would agree that we need to get our talented youngsters playing in their right positions at club level first (with a view to the 2015 RWC imo) before we spring them on the international stage. Nor have we said that the incumbents are 'rubbish' (well, other than Parks, Morrison, Dickinson and Hall) - in fact, I chose my words to comment on Schlong carefully:

I wrote:he makes a decent fist of playing 12 as an individual, but I'm afraid we have to admit does nothing for the outside backs

and I'll stick by that statement. We all know that sorting out IC for Scotland is only one piece of the puzzle, just as sorting out flyhalf is, but they are two key components

PS altho on Sunday running around the heath with my 4-yr old lad with a ball (size 3 cos he is wee), he did beat me on the outside several times, altho I eventually got him with a vicious tap tackle (as young hughie can testifty to!! ) - I'd defo consider capping him early too, given that he's half English

PPS

fES wrote:26% versus 35% - not far apart really.

What makes one a creative distributor and the other a bosh merchant then??

You're right that statistically that's not that far apart, but as Robbo keeps reminding us, success at international level is based on small margins

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:[PS altho on Sunday running around the heath with my 4-yr old lad with a ball (size 3 cos he is wee), he did beat me on the outside several times, altho I eventually got him with a vicious tap tackle (as young hughie can testifty to!! ) - I'd defo consider capping him early too, given that he's half English

Well that is not exactly hard. I heard you had the tunring circle of a Morrison

All very reasonable ASBO!!

Pleased you spotted my little moan on the other thread. Some English posters wanting some kid called Luke Wallace to play 7 for England, after about 4 professional matches. Love it!

Only one of two ways to deal with young whippersnappers beating you on outside ASBO: (i) spear tackle, (ii) shoulder charge. Don't want him growing up soft otherwise he will pick England.

I actually think Robbo is right about small margins, it's just also that Scotland has got some pretty big margins wrong as well. I still maintain that in the right set-up with the right coaches Lamont could be a very effective 12, and part of an effective try scoring unit.

How about convert Vernon into a 12?

Absolutely, and Rennie into a fly half as well

I think Scottish rugby has been so badly managed for so long that fans have turned away from the game, the players will need to achieve success before the fans come flooding back, but the longer they leave it the harder it will be.

Wales and Ireland have caught up on and off the field with France and England. While I expect Italy to steadily improve over the longer term. Scottish rugby is flat broke and can't invest in academies like the other nations. I'm worried for their future, but in reality the weaker they are the more chance Wales has of being successful so there is a silver lining really.

I don't like to see the mess their countries rugby is in, but it is no one elses fault but their own. Robinson is a very average coach but they haven't attracted anyone with any geniune talent to their job for a long time.
Wales select the best man they feel they can realistically get and hunt him down till he is under contract, Graham Henry, Warren Gatland etc, they always go for the guy who they believe can bring them success, Scotland seem to go for whomever is willing to be employed by them.

They should sack Robinson and try and get Nick Mallett.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Where'd you got those from? Can you not do Morrison as well?

I think if As was to go into Morrison's stats it could be used as a form of cruel and unusual punishment, like waterboarding. Amnesty international would be all over it like a cheap suit.

I see As & FES have had some differances of opinions and to be honest I have to side myself with As, for all the guts, heart and Passion Sean Lamont brings to the 12 jersey we are kidding ourselves if we think he is a natural 12. Comparing him to Roberts is a pretty ludicrous thing to say since not only does Roberts have the power and abrasive running to break defences wide open, he also has a much better rugby brain that he uses to put whoever plays 13 for Wales or the Blues into space. Lamont can crash the ball and generaly offloads very well but surely he can't be compared to Roberts who has played at 12 for pretty much his entire Rugby career?

However I agree with FES when he says we can't really bring in new players who are yet to prove themselves at club level. The sticking point for me is the incumbent players are proven at club level and to an extent at international level, but they are not scoring tries. 240 minutes of world cup rugby and no tries is shameful. Sure the matches we played were in terrible conditions but the bulk of the players ply their trade in the UK, not the Bahamas. Rain is a way of life here and I'm not saying the conditions don't effect the game because having played for 14 years I know they do but they do not influence the play to the extent some posters here are intimating.

In truth it is time for a breath of fresh air in the backs. In particular 9-10-12. Considering players like Laidlaw, Jackson, Weir and Scott are all playing well at club level I would reckon this would warrant their inclusion in the 6N.

I guess part of me wants to throw some of these youngsters in and see what happens. In the words of William Wallace : "I have brought ye to the revel, now dance if ye can"

Granted after that speech his army was massacred by the English at Falkirk, however I would argue our rugby team has better dancers.

From today's Scotsman:

"The matter of try-scoring sits prominently on the horizon with Scotland’s failure to cross the whitewash more than four times and the back line’s lack of teeth now the major obstacle to optimism. The players have nothing without belief and De Luca, who at 27 and with 29 caps only scored his first try in March, retains that commodity, but he does not hide from the issue.

“We don’t have to be a prolific, free-scoring team to win Tests. We’ve won with just a try or two, sometimes none, but the World Cup showed we have to score one or two to beat top sides.

“It is very disappointing to be 18th out of 20 in the try-scoring chart for the World Cup, and all of those tries coming in the first game. It’s tough to take especially as an outside back and unacceptable.

“Something has to change. We have to learn to score tries, and whether that comes from a change in personnel or by sticking with players, showing faith and letting them find the answer together I’ll leave in the coaches’ hands.

“The way I’m looking at it, we now have a good three months-plus with no autumn Tests to really bed into the club game and start running well, scoring and showing that belief. There are no magic formulae. It’s about improving your individual game, running the right lines, giving the ball at the right times, making the pick-up and giving yourself the chance to score; all these little things. Everyone wants to see big hits and tries, and we’ve developed our big hits so let’s get the tries now.”

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Where'd you got those from? Can you not do Morrison as well?

I think if As was to go into Morrison's stats it could be used as a form of cruel and unusual punishment, like waterboarding. Amnesty international would be all over it like a cheap suit.

I see As & FES have had some differances of opinions and to be honest I have to side myself with As, for all the guts, heart and Passion Sean Lamont brings to the 12 jersey we are kidding ourselves if we think he is a natural 12. Comparing him to Roberts is a pretty ludicrous thing to say since not only does Roberts have the power and abrasive running to break defences wide open, he also has a much better rugby brain that he uses to put whoever plays 13 for Wales or the Blues into space. Lamont can crash the ball and generaly offloads very well but surely he can't be compared to Roberts who has played at 12 for pretty much his entire Rugby career?

However I agree with FES when he says we can't really bring in new players who are yet to prove themselves at club level. The sticking point for me is the incumbent players are proven at club level and to an extent at international level, but they are not scoring tries. 240 minutes of world cup rugby and no tries is shameful. Sure the matches we played were in terrible conditions but the bulk of the players ply their trade in the UK, not the Bahamas. Rain is a way of life here and I'm not saying the conditions don't effect the game because having played for 14 years I know they do but they do not influence the play to the extent some posters here are intimating.

I think that we all agree that club form needs to be solid and consistent.

The issue at hand for me is whether to consider actually trying people in a different position to their regular club position. I would love to see Ansbro at 12 with Max at 13. I remember hearing years ago that (for example) Gitau was so talented, he could play anywhere from 12 to 15. Ansbro is a great footballer. Provided that Robinson is consistent in his position selections at international level - is there any reason (other than convention) why Ansbro couldn't play 13 at Irish and 12 for Scotland?

Or is this, as my aged granny used to say, a large pile of testicles?

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Comparing him to Roberts is a pretty ludicrous thing to say since not only does Roberts have the power and abrasive running to break defences wide open, he also has a much better rugby brain that he uses to put whoever plays 13 for Wales or the Blues into space. Lamont can crash the ball and generaly offloads very well but surely he can't be compared to Roberts who has played at 12 for pretty much his entire Rugby career?

Roberts started out as a winger. He was then shunted to fullback. Gatland moved him to 12 about 6 months prior to the Lions tour, when he also played 12. He was then shifted between 12 and 13 this season and last, playing both with Hook and JD2. He started as a winger though and broke through into the professional ranks in that position, and then as a full back.

Yes, he runs better lines, but he's surrounded by better footballers. You say that Roberts has the power and abrasive running to break defences wide open - sounds just like Lamont as well. I personally don't think the two players are miles apart - Lamont was certainly the better performer at centre (albeit that Roberts played quite a bit at 13 rather than 12) in the 6 Nations. The far bigger difference is the players they are surrounded by. Wales have the likes of Hook, Jones, Priestland, Phillips, Halfpenny and Williams dancing around him and creating space. Lamont has Parks/Jackson and De Luca/Ansbro.

The best quote from De Luca:

"It’s about improving your individual game, running the right lines, giving the ball at the right times, making the pick-up and giving yourself the chance to score;"


Yes Nick, that's right. It's about "making the pick-up".

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I guess part of me wants to throw some of these youngsters in and see what happens. In the words of William Wallace : "I have brought ye to the revel, now dance if ye can"

Granted after that speech his army was massacred by the English at Falkirk, however I would argue our rugby team has better dancers.

Or rather, the English have declined somewhat since then

Lee Jones

Seems Lee Jones has his eyes fixed on bringing his style of running to the Scotland Jersey by developing consistancy at Edinburgh. It's good to see him talking confidently about his own and Edinburgh's abilities.

Also Denton, McInally and Turnbull have all signed on at Edinburgh untill 2014.

Lee Jones for me is the pick of the young outside backs. If we can harness both he and Evans in the same backline, we should have the sort of one on one abilities that have made Wales and Ireland that much better than us in recent years.

Players like that can hide all manner of sins in creativity and coaching, because they can create something out of nothing. We sorely need that.

Guys,

Started a debate about Grieg Laidlaw in the club forum and would be good to hear your thoughts

https://www.606v2.com/t16557-greig-laidlaw-9-or-10#600879