McCaw v Jones - who is the greatest 7 now?

There's a short time until the final now and Mr McCaw has justifiably been the focus of a lot of media attention.

This post is about who the greatest All Black openside could now be considered to be on the basis that McCaw will likely captain his side to the Webb Ellis trophy this week.

We know the candidates - what I'd like to know is whether posters' opinion as to who the finest ever was will change if McCaw captains his side to a World Cup.

Credentials:

Laauli Michael Niko Jones (the 'Iceman')
55 caps
2 World Cup campaigns, one World Cup win

A man of contrast. His strong Christian faith denied him match time and serious jaw and knee injuries saw him amass only 56 points (13 tries) in internationals and a total of 69 points (16 tries) from 74 All Black matches but was still the man that McCaw admits having to try to emulate.

Like all true greats, completely redefined the role of forager with his incredible cardio and instinct of being in exactly the right place at the right time. One of the very first players who was as skilled a footballer as most of the backs. One of the few opensides who could legitimately claim to be an international class blindside as well. An All Black icon, nothing less.

Richard Hugh McCaw ('Richie')
102 caps
2 World Cup campaigns

Since his debut the All Blacks have won seven Tri Nations titles, completed three successful Grand Slam tours and won the Bledisloe Cup eight times.

In 2010 McCaw played his 100th Super Rugby game, made a record-equalling 94th test appearance for his country and became New Zealands most capped All Black captain, leading the side in 57 test matches.

He has been named the International Rugby Board (IRB) International Player of The Year a record three times and was the first All Black to reach 100 caps.

Personally, I think that McCaw will finally eclipse Jones if they win on Sunday.

Yeah knew this one would resurface eventually.
For me it will akways be Jones. Was inspirational to the people and players of my playing years in a way no one else was so its more of a personal choice.
The two are different athletically- jones a terror on cutting down inside backs or carrying the ball through and beyond defences. Mccaws brilliance lays more around the breakdown area. First there. Turnovers, stifling opposition attacks etc.
Only recently more of a ball carrier.
Im just glad we're blessed to have had them both.

carlin
Michael Jones is the most talented openside flanker I have ever seen play the game.
Most of the skills like turnover, link plays and running lines which we admire in our modern no. 7s were pioneered and crafted by Michael.
His acceleration used to continually get him penalised for being offside.
Michaels other sporting love was basketball, and many hours of playing ball gave him not only fantastic ball /hand skills but also "hangtime" at lineout time prior to laws on lifting being relaxed.
I could go on forever, but if I had to pick a team with both of these two players available in their prime I would make Richie skipper and number 8. But the Number 7 jersey would go to "Ice"

Difficult to compare because the game is quite different now. All the rules around the breakdown are different and McCaw has become the expert in this area.

Jones for me will always be the best open side I ever saw.

Laurie are any of those auck games of the 80s available anywhere?
I cant even find a website that has the stats and scores of the 80s matches.
You any idea on either?

Jones was the best IMO but it's always awkward to compare different eras etc.

Jones however, is one of the players that would have been as successful in the Pro era as he was in the amateur days.

Yes there arent any 7s around even now that would match jones speed and explosiveness.
But like with mccaw there are two teams. One with him and one without him.
Back in the 80s it was same with jones. We used to have sunday tests and the abs would plan around jones not playing.
There was never any question around his commitment to his faith such was the respect for him.
But when he wasnt playing things were 'missing'. Just how it was.

I think that auklandlaurie sums it up best for my decision :

"Most of the skills like turnover, link plays and running lines which we admire in our modern no. 7s were pioneered and crafted by Jones"

The man was an inspiration to watch and many players since have tried to model their games around him.

McCaw is also brilliant and in his own way many young players are modeling their game around him. It was hard to make the choice but i would go with Jones.

Taylorman
Sometime I must look for some good footage, but dont know of any off the top my head.
I used to watch auckland a lot when John Hart was the coach and watching Michael and Zinny playing as a loose combination was years ahead of its time,

This is the old.old story,how does X compare with Y,over the years the laws have changed.
Players changed with them Bronco Seeling,Maurice Brownlie,Bill Clark,John Graham,Waka Nathan,Kel Tremain,Kirkpatrick,Josh Kronfeld,Micheal Jones,Marty Holah,Richie Mc Caw.
Most of those players at one time or another would be considered number one in there positions.
All Blacks until fairly recently played right and left,the Boks and Crusaders on occassions still do.
Michael Jones,and Ritchie McCaw were [are]BOTH great players neither better or worse than the other just different.
IF France win on Sunday,will that make McCaw less of the great player he is,of course not.
Revel in the knowledge the will BOTH go down in History as great.

I don't know much about Jones....
However, I notice on the 'Oracle of all Things' (wikipedia) that his first full senior cap was for Samoa

If he was capped for Samoa, how did he then go on to represent New Zealand?

the rules were different then.

Wasps
Michael jonses first international was for Western Samoa versus Wales,he was introduced to the ground as Tom Jones... all the Welshmen had a second look...

Geez alan marty holahs not in that crowd. Nor john graham.Point here alan is about picking your favorite. As in which do you think was better. For the fun of it.
Its not some technical consideratio.
Let your hair down and just choose for once instead of putting some list or set of rules around it.

In there day Tremain,Jones,McCaw,best of all TREMAIN in my opinion for what its worth.
When he went ou t of the test game NZ `s game started to go with it.

Thought Kevin Eveleigh,Cowboy Shaw,Jock Hobbs, Andy Leslie,might nudge ahead of Marty Holah.

IMO Michael Jones is the best player to ever grace a rugby pitch.

McCaw is probably on a par with him as a 7, but let's not forget Jones was the best in the world in three positions.

The All Blacks were not the same team when either player was not on the pitch. It would have been great to have had Michael play in the games he missed due his religion, but kudos to the man for sticking to his principles and it's a measure of his play that he was slotted back in straight away.

Would he have made a difference in 95? Depends if he ate the chicken

Let's hope McCaw can lift the cup on Sunday. If he can lead the team to win he deserves it. But this was supposed to be Dan Carter's pinnacle too so fate can play a part.

The lasting image of the 87 presentation was Kirk and Dalton with the cup. I'd want nothing more than to have that same scenario with Carter and McCaw. Both absolute champions of the game-Carter is the best 10 I've ever seen too.

Was thinking of hayburner and cowboy myself laurie.
Wasnt a leslie fan mind you.
Alan whetton if were going 6. Very underated. Mourie wasnt too bad but not in the physical athletic mould. More a thinker, captain.

For those rubbishing Marty Holah he was considered the Worlds number 2 Number7 after McCaw when he went North.
Also built a considerablr reputation in NH

Perhaps if any of the others had played in the Northern Hemisphere,they also may have built a considerable reputation.

We seem to be clattering to the conclusion that there is nothing that McCaw could ever do to eclipse Jones, which is interesting.

Jones had 4,400 minutes of test time.
McCaw has 8,160 minutes and counting.

Does this feature in the analysis of anyone?
Or is 'longevity' the least of the positives for any player?

Great point George. Openside flanker is probably the most attritional position on the pitch. It's an achievement to still be playing international rugby after that amount of games, let alone be top of the tree.

Jones' two knee injuries curtailed a hell of a lot though. I was there when he did his first one at Athletic Park. Not pretty viewing from front on.

Don´t forget though George there are a lot more tests in the professional era. McCaw has amassed a lot of tests and minutes because there are a lot more as well.

I remember being a kid and going to see Jones at Lancaster Park. He was humble and so is Richie and that´s what you should also take into account. Not like Zinny who was a loudmouth flashy player. Not saying Zinny wasn´t great but hard to like at times (especially if you were a young AB). Richie eclipses provincialism as did Jones.

I can´t choose between them because they are not similar players. It´s like saying who´s more attractive between Heidi Klum and Eva. I´ll be happy to take either...

I wonder if we will be asking who is the greatest in a few years, whether it is McCaw, Warburton, Pocock or a possible other?

On saturday the ref pinged David Pocock off the park. Thereby giving Mcc and the AB's a free ride, funny that !!

aucklandlaurie wrote: carlin
Michael Jones is the most talented openside flanker I have ever seen play the game.

I agree and don't say Wales has never done anything for New Zealand rugby!

"I wonder if we will be asking who is the greatest in a few years, whether it is McCaw, Warburton, Pocock or a possible other?"

I can garentee it won't be Warburton. That boy is receiving some serious hype lately. Good player, Richie McCaw he isn't.