Bushnell Tour V2 with Pinseeker acquired

LJ will be delighted to know that I have purchased a laser range finder.

And I like it.

Very quick and easy to use.

Quite pricey but when you consider how much use it will be getting, ultimately, it will be a good value purchase.

Merc, i'm not asknig this to be mean but more because i'm interested - do you know how far you hit your irons and if you do have distances in mind do you know you can hit them exactly and consistently?

I've had one for a while now, and love it

I feel the biggest advantage is just the mental approach to each shot. If you KNOW you've got 150 to the pin it gives you so much more confidence to commit to the shot
Rather than been 'around' 150ish

MustPuttBetter wrote:Merc, i'm not asknig this to be mean but more because i'm interested - do you know how far you hit your irons and if you do have distances in mind do you know you can hit them exactly and consistently?

From 100 to 200 yards, I know my yardages and regularly hit them. I'm maybe only finding the target with 30% to 40% of them but the distance-control is consistent enough for me to make use of a laser range finder.

Fair enough Merc
The only reason i ask is because i've often thought about buying a rangefinder but have always convinced myself not to. I hit my irons pretty consistently and know how far they will usually go to within say 5 yards. The thing is i can usually work out my distance to the pin using markers/sprinkler heads etc, to within 5 yards so am wondering if it would make a difference.
I appreciate the rangefinder can drill down from that 5 yards to 1 yard but i couldn't honestly say i consistently hit my irons to an exact yardage accurate to 1 yard

MPB, I don't think anyone in the world could hit an iron to 1 yard consistently, which is why I don't think the accuracy of a laser is as important as being in the general "ballpark" of the flag.

I keep a sheet glued into a scorecard holder in my back pocket to remind me how far I carry a ball with each of the scoring clubs. My club provides pin sheets which have the information as to how far on/left/right the pin is and so my GPS is more than accurate enough for the purpose.

Also, it isn't always wise to shoot directly at the pin, I might need to know the distance to the front, middle and back in order to play a safe shot if the pin is in a sucker position. A laser can't always tell you that.

I agree SR, with all the other options to a laser, sky caddies etc, they are surely a better option, giving distances to hazards, front, middle and back of greens

Do you think you need a distance measuring device at your home club? Once you've played the course a few times you shouldn't need to use one.

They are very useful when you play somewhere else, if they are allowed.

George1507 wrote:Do you think you need a distance measuring device at your home club? Once you've played the course a few times you shouldn't need to use one.

They are very useful when you play somewhere else, if they are allowed.

There's a 2 handicapper at our club who uses one. If someone of his ability uses one, then I'd suggest they are of use.

I completely disagree that you don't need one at your own course, simply because it's your own course doesn't mean you have a laser eye to judge distance or instantly know how far you are from a given point. It's not as if everyone is so consistent that they'll be playing from the same spot on their home course for every shot on every hole everytime they play the course. It's like saying that you know the distance to your bathroom window from every given point in your garden just because you live there.

It might give you a more educated estimate, but it's still an estimate.

I see plenty of people using DMDs at my club. The yardage is usually within 5 yards of what I'd guess it to be. They still miss the green on a regular basis though.

If it helps people to feel more confident with the club they are hitting, then that's fine. I'm not sure that knowledge and confidence translates into better shots though.

After years of playing golf, it's clear to me that the majority of players come up short with iron clubs most of the time. That must be either because they don't hit most shots properly, or they think they hit it further than they do.

Either way DMDs don't help.

George, I think that depends on the calibre and consistency of the player.
I think a mid handicapper would gain more from better course management than they would with a DMD, but a low handicapper who can hit consistent distances can gain a great deal from knowing the distance bewtween them and the target.

Not sure george, DMD's can be a help, certainly, how many times do you play an different course and think the 150 markers are out? I used to loads, not since I got a sky caddie I don't.

As for people coming up short, well that is obvious, not many people take one extra club and allow for the duff, they usually pick a club based on them hitting it reasonably flush!

Exactly SR, i agree that all you really need to concern yourself within is gaining a measurement within say 5-10 yards of the pin, or indeed wherever on the green you may be looking to hit.
Do we need a rangefinder to ascertain a distance within 10 yards?

As for coming up short, depending on where the danger is - which in my opinion is more often long than short - surely you have to pick a club based on hitting it flush??

JD - yes, I think you are right.

On Sunday, doing some research for the club, I watched 25 groups of 3 playing a par three. It was a club competition, so members only (therefore they all know the course). The handicap range was between 0 and 21, with the majority off 13 to 18. The yardage from the tee to the pin was lasered at 160, slightly downhill, but playing into a breeze. There are 2 big bunkers just short that catch anything not carrying onto the green. It's a tricky hole, but not a hard par 3.

Out of 75 players, only 17 were actually on the green, with another 13 just off the green to the sides. Of the other 45 players, the vast majority were short, most in the bunkers, some even short of that.

Now here's the thing. I reckon I hit it further than most people. All morning I was thinking it would have been a 6 iron for me, yet at least half of those I saw were going with shorter clubs - 7 or 8 irons. There's no immediate trouble at the back, for at least 15 yards. 15 yards over the back would be 30 yards past the pin.

The tendency is always to underclub. When you aren't playing, it's fascinating to watch your fellow members making obvious mistakes.

There are only two excuses for under clubbing, you get the yardage wrong, or you miss hit it!

There are a few people I play with who under club in a macho way, trying to hit close to what I do, trouble is, I hit a long ball and am a good player.

I think alot of players have absolutely no idea how far they hit a ball, with each club.

At worst you should know how far u hit your 5 iron, and work from there

A friend bought me the Dave Pelz Short Game bible this year and that is basically all about improving your scoring from 100 yards in. The idea is that you have "stock" yardages with your various wedges and know how far each will fly so improving the chance of getting up and down.
Having a laser device is absolutely invaluable when trying to put this into practice as you do need to know as accurately as possible how far to the flag to be able to improve - being five yards out as a guess leaves a 15 foot putt if you nail it.
Nowhere near as good as the pros yet but I am seeing improvements in what is the best way for most golfers to reduce their scores though I agree course management would help many of the people I play with.

Aside from rank beginners or those who don't take it very seriously (and therefore never hit the range) I don't know anyone who doesn't have an idea of how far they hit their clubs.
How can you play to even a semi reasnoable standard if you don't??

That doesn't mean they don't underclub though!
I don't think the main reason for underclubbing is thinking you hit it further than you do

MustPuttBetter wrote:Aside from rank beginners or those who don't take it very seriously (and therefore never hit the range) I don't know anyone who doesn't have an idea of how far they hit their clubs.
How can you play to even a semi reasnoable standard if you don't??

That doesn't mean they don't underclub though!
I don't think the main reason for underclubbing is thinking you hit it further than you do

There is a difference between having an idea, and actually knowing, seriously I'd say 75% of golfers don't know how far they hit a 5 iron!

ALL the low handicap players I regularly play with (Cat 1's) use some form of DMD. I really can't see any argument against them. Personally, I have tried both types and prefer my laser quite simply because it is more accurate.
I play a lot of opens on courses that I may play only once a year so my laser provides excellent VFM.

JDandfries wrote:There is a difference between having an idea, and actually knowing, seriously I'd say 75% of golfers don't know how far they hit a 5 iron!

Of course there is, which is why i mentioned earlier about say within 5 yards. I don't think anyone on here is going to be able to honestly say they consistently hit their irons to a distance tighter than that.
Aside from 'part time players' i've never played with anyone who doesn't have an idea within 5-10 yards of how far they hit the majority of their irons on a good strike.
That doesn't mean they always make a good strike. It also doesn't mean they always take into account the wind, slope and it also doesn't mean that they're bold enough to fire straight at the pin for fear of being long and in trouble. All much more common reasons i think for underclubbing.

I probably phrased that wrong, people base how far they hit it on their best ever shot - like someone will say I hit my driver 300 yds.

no you don't you hit it 300yds once, down hill and down wind!

I have seen it loads, people taking a club, nailing it and ending up 10 - 15 yards short, but still not realise they are hitting the wrong club!

it is probably the single biggest error made by amateur golfers

JDandfries wrote:I probably phrased that wrong, people base how far they hit it on their best ever shot - like someone will say I hit my driver 300 yds.

no you don't you hit it 300yds once, down hill and down wind!

I have seen it loads, people taking a club, nailing it and ending up 10 - 15 yards short, but still not realise they are hitting the wrong club!

it is probably the single biggest error made by amateur golfers

I can hit my 3 iron 312 yards*

*on holiday in France, downhill par 4, rock hard fairways, yardage lines across the fairway from recent Captains day longest drive comp.

JDandfries wrote:
it is probably the single biggest error made by amateur golfers

I thought that was asking for swing advice on 606.

JDandfries,

Totally agree. And many of the bad shots are caused by trying to hit the club as hard as possible. Perhaps 1 in 10 or 1 in 20 reach the pin, but most golfers with this fault would be much better served if they took 1 or 2 extra clubs and tryed to play within themselves.

Even the pros yardages are based on a full shot, not a maximum shot. The pros can force and extra 5 yards or so from their irons, but choose not to on almost every occassion.

JD
We obviously play with very different types because I don't know anyone like that!

MustPuttBetter wrote:JD
We obviously play with very different types because I don't know anyone like that!

I think you are making it up!

MustPuttBetter wrote:Do we need a rangefinder to ascertain a distance within 10 yards?

The answer is an emphatic 'yes'. 10 yards is one club.

JD, why do you think that and why would i do that?
No-one i know says they can drive 300 yards or a similar bunch of nonsense

Merc, i know 10 yards could be one club. What i mean is, do we need a rangefinder to be able to put a number on the distance to the pin within 10 yards of being accurate. I think i can do that using yardage markers, course maps and sprinkler heads etc

MustPuttBetter wrote:JD, why do you think that and why would i do that?
No-one i know says they can drive 300 yards or a similar bunch of nonsense

Merc, i know 10 yards could be one club. What i mean is, do we need a rangefinder to be able to put a number on the distance to the pin within 10 yards of being accurate. I think i can do that using yardage markers, course maps and sprinkler heads etc

I know what you were meaning, MPB, and my comment still stands. Why run the risk of getting the wrong yardage when you can get +/- 1 yard margin of error?

In addition, how do you get a yardage when you're off piste. Why leave it to guess work?

MPB, I think expecting to hit shots consistently within 1 yard is impossible for anyone, pro or amateur, but hitting consistently within 5 yards is easily attainable to a decent player and 10 yards should be fairly attainable to a mid handicapper who strikes the ball well.
So knowing the yardage of where you want the ball to finish is fairly important, but only if you know how far you hit each club, but the majority of people with DMD's don't know how far they hit each club, they have an idea of how far they are supposed to, which is why a great many amateurs always finish up short.

Merc, i guess if the marker posts etc are ropey then you're right, why leave it to guesswork

I've no problem with the idea of having a Bushnell or whatever, i'm just tyring to work out if i should get one and if it would actually make a difference to my scoring

MPB, first ask yourself , do you hit the ball consistently enough to take yardages for yardages to matter, or do you just hit and hope it goes somewhere near.

Think about your recent rounds, and try and remember your approach shots, were you predominantly long, short, or bang on? How good are you at judging the distance you are from the target and how often do you select the right club to go that distance?
I bet no one is as good at that as they think they are.

Super, that's what i mean. If we assume how far someone hits it or think they hit it as irrelevant - we're agreed the 5 yards is the tightest you can reasonably know your club distances to. Obviously getting a distance to within 5 yards with a rangefinder is easier but is that something i can't do without one? That's what i'm trying to figure out

Well MPB, when I first got a laser, the first thing I did was get down the range and work out how far I hit each club, then wrote it down and use it as a reference. As a result I'm more far more accurate for distance, while I am hitting it stiff more often, especially on shorter 80 yard pitch shots where it is more easy to hit consistent yardages( i.e hitting it to closer than 5 yards more often)

Should you get one? Well I believe I use DMD's to as full a potential as I possibly can and they have certainly improved my game, particularly Greens in Regulation, and if you are hitting more greens, you'll have more birdie putts. So they work for me.

Fair enough

Out of interest Merc, how much did you pay?
Can you keep us informed on how they affect your scoring?

MPB

What I mean is, and i am not doubting your assertion that your buddys SAY they know how far they hit it, but I am doubting whether they actually do or not.

Unless they are all low single figures I am gussing they don't know how far they hit it.

IMO Very few people do know how far they hit it, they may think they do, but they don't, THAT was my point.

JD I play with my buddies and it's quite obvious to tell if they all think they hit it further than they do and it's not something I've ever noticed.
That doesn’t mean they are always pin high and most of the time this is for the reasons I’ve already mentioned coupled with the fact that they (and i) don’t always hit a clean shot. Coming up short is often simply because someone doesn’t hit a good shoot all the time, but you can’t club based on catching it thin or heavy!
 
I know quite nicely how far I hit my irons and I’m not a single figure handicapper.
I think you’re confusing someone’s intelligence with their golfing ability. Anyone can work out how far they can hit it. Not anyone can consistently hit it. That’s what makes a single figure handicapper. Or part of it anyway.

MustPuttBetter wrote:Fair enough

Out of interest Merc, how much did you pay?
Can you keep us informed on how they affect your scoring?

£225 but that was from a Pro Shop so you can probably get it sub-£200 off t'net.

I am someone who, in the past, belittled the gains to be had in having a laser range finder (hence my reference to LJ in my opening post) because I had Golfshot on my phone.

Now, having experienced it and as has already been mentioned by s_r, I will be using it to accurately determine my yardages to the yard. I can't think of a better tool to have to help you gauge your stock yardages.

I really do hope it helps Merc. Can you keep us informed?

Yes, and I eluded to that in a previous post, but how (if they don't hit it consistantly) do they know how far they hit each club?

I am guessing there is some sort of 'mean' distance they hit each club, and that is my point, obviously not many people hit it reasonably flush all the time, therefore how can you say you know how far you hit it?

I know that most of the time I will hit my 5 iron between 200 and 210, but i can also hit it 220 (if i put a bit extra at it)or 180 if i hit it fat etc (not very often)

Say you have a DMD, and you have 180 to the middle of the green, but 180, is either a solid 6 iron or a not so solid 5, or a fat/thin 4, what do you do?

if you knew how far you hit it, you would hit a 6, and not even think about it, but if you don't KNOW how far, you have a choice of 3 clubs!

MustPuttBetter wrote:I really do hope it helps Merc. Can you keep us informed?

Of course.

I won't get the opportunity for a good session down the range until two Fridays time but, providing there's little wind, I'll work out my yardages and add them to here.

I've always wanted to check the yardage markers at the range because I regularly think they're wrong!

JD, that's where it also comes into play, let's say you know how far the back of the green is, and how far the front is, split the difference and even an inconsistent player will benefit as they can select a club that they know they can hit somewhere between that range.

I agree SR, just think the amount of people who say they know how far they hit it, most of them are not quite as sure as they think.

My bushnell gets more use on the range than on the course.

PS

Any measuring device is against the spirit of the game, including things like 150 yard markers.

Despite this I am still happy to use them although feeling uncomfortable about it.

JD, a mean distance?!
Ok look if a guy goes down the range and he’s a 28 handicapper. He doesn’t have a solid technique and so doesn’t have a repeatable swing. He hits ten 8 irons. 5 he hits properly and they all go roughly 135-140 yards (this is how far I hit my 8 iron, I could be making that up but I’m not!). The other 5 he hits badly and they go 40 yards. The mean distance is 90 yards. Are you trying to tell me he should pull out the 8 iron every time he’s 90 yards away?! He won’t hit the green with the good ones and won’t hit the green with the bad ones.
That’s nonsense. Ok you can take a mean distance but it has to be a mean of the decently struck shots. Quite clearly that guy hits hit 8 iron 135 yards. He’s just not consistent. He will under club half the time. But not beause he thinks he hits it further than he does.
 
THAT is the point I’m trying to make

JD, I agree, ask any average golfer how far they hit a 7 iron for example and I guarantee 9/10 will say 150 yards, because that's the convention.

Most will be less than this, but they can't admit to themselves that they don't hit it that far. Golf still has a maschismo problem, which is why drivers are the most marketable club, despite them being considerably down the list of importance.
My average is somewhere between 145-150 with a 7 depending on how well I hit it, but I usually make sure I take enough club to at least make the front of the green, so the pin distance is not necessarily always the target distance especially if it is right at the front of the green, it might make more sense to hit a club which when hit well will travel to the middle, thus a good shot will end up in the middle of the green for distance, while a slightly heavy shot will be a few yards shorter but still makes the putting surface.
For the number of people who have DMD's I don't think enough people use them in conjunction with strategy or course management.

Also, when measuring your shots, you take out the obvious outliers, i/e the one or two that go too far and the one or two that go nowhere. You should also hit a lot more than 10 balls to determine average distance. I'd hit at least 30-40 with each club and have a look at the distribution.

Mac, you're a crackpot. You'll be saying that wearing a glove is against the spirit of the game next.

I see the debate goes on ...... I'm a firm believer in the Bushnell and can confirm that it saved me at least 2 strokes per round when I got it.

Knowing your own course is one thing, but being able to know the exact yardage to the pin, and the distance between the back of a bunker and the pin is a big plus. Playing abroad a rangefinder is brilliant, and even at home courses you don't usually play.

100% agree that anyone who has one, needs to know how far they hit each club, and that means carry distance, because course conditions obviously vary, but if you know how far each club will carry, you make your own mind up which club to take depending on wind, downhill, firm bouncy fairway, soft ......

Confidence is the key and it helps. I play with a couple of guys who love to pit their wits against my Bushnell and some get close at times, but some get it way wrong, and none can tell how much green they have to work with behind bunkers, or behind the pin.

It works for me

A slightly extreme example, I'd say, but then again there is no need whatsoever for someone off 28 to have a distance device, i think it would be a hinderence more than anything else!