Is this a red card offence?

Yes I know, "let it go.. move on.. what's happend, has happened" etc, etc.

This thread is not to debate whether the red card was the right call but how the laws should be interpreted.

The picture below is from an incident that I for one didn't even notice in the Wales v South Africa pool match and just happened to stumble apon in an article on the rugby world cup website. What I do remember is that no cards were handed out, the question is, should there have been?

As posters have rightly stated "Lifting a player from the ground and dropping or driving that player into the ground whilst that player’s feet are still off the ground such that the player’s head and/or upper body come into contact with the ground is dangerous play".

This photo suggests that Shane Williams has been tackled, lifted (as his body is off the ground), tipped past horizontal and the tackling player has no control over how he lands as he only has hold of one leg. Now this does not look in any way intentional, there is no driving into the ground, no intentional tipping motion and is just one angle, but what would your judgment be using only this picture as evidence?

Spoiler:

Please note that this is not a dig at South Africa, I don't think this tackle deserved a card and have no gripes about the win. This is just an example of one of the many tackles that could cause referees a bit of a headache.

Red card. Bad call by the ref.

What that photo doesn't show is that Shane Williams jumped into the contact/over the tackle and essentially tripped himself up. It's something he's started to do in the last couple of seasons, v annoying and honestly, just v dangerous and mainly for himself.

Probably not because Shane is stupid enough to jump as he is being tackled, which in itself is a penalty offence.

One day he is going to be badly hurt as a result and it will be his own fault.

Poor ickle Shane. Mr Fourie is a beast & should get a lifetime ban

The photo does look pretty dodgy though! But it wasn't the tackle of warburton that cost us

There are so many areas that are open to interpretation, which, apparently is why we have these "elite" referees to make the calls.

In my opinion, there is too much technology and camera angles now in all walks of life! When rugby was invented it was a free for all and children were in chimneys cleaning them!

Let's get back to the good old days i'd say

AlynDavies wrote:Probably not because Shane is stupid enough to jump as he is being tackled, which in itself is a penalty offence.

One day he is going to be badly hurt as a result and it will be his own fault.

God bless you sir. You've just promoted yourself to my favourite welsh person outside the pub folk. Refreshingly honest assessment unlike the Pillocks who will give Alain a hard time at the Dragons in a few weeks time.

Alyn & Rugby, I agree that this isn't the first time Shane has jumped into the tackle and could be very dangerous. Should this be cracked down on as much as the "tip-tackles" themselves?

Here's an example of a very dangerous piece of play by Williams, lucky (in my opinion) not to get a yellow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJMw70nEWWQ

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/need-to-read/2011/10/19/video-is-this-unpunished-tackle-the-same-as-sam-warburton-s-91466-29622969/


And this?

Wales deserved to win the semifinal. However with this continued excessive fuss over the 'controversial' decision, I'm finding my sympathy for Wales being replaced by annoyance.

doctornickolas wrote:http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/need-to-read/2011/10/19/video-is-this-unpunished-tackle-the-same-as-sam-warburton-s-91466-29622969/


And this?

Palmer didn't drop him

http://m.youtube.com/watch?gl=IE&hl=en&client=mv-google&v=o_OOKEbRzGQ

Here is one that was punished

This is one that should've been punished
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsXJyDHFKn0

This is an example of how to do it correctly
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E8uHGJBXRI

WillyGilly wrote:Wales deserved to win the semifinal. However with this continued excessive fuss over the 'controversial' decision, I'm finding my sympathy for Wales being replaced by annoyance.

Willy, don't base your feelings for a nation on the postings of a few message board people. There's probably a max of 300 Welsh posters on here, and only a hand full have been causing 'excessive fuss'. Look at the people posting, it tends to be the same handful. Also, one of the main instigators of this red card 'controversy' has been PJHolyBloke who is English!

Also, why the dig at the Dragons fans for being 'pillocks' for something that hasn't happened yet? Nice. I've known the Ulster fans to be pretty hostile in the past and to give the ref a hard time.

In the case of the tackle on Williams I would say it fundementally lacks the element of the tackler doing the lifting and therefore falls down right there, as previously stated jumping into a tackle OR jumping to avoid a tackle is highly dangerous and an offence, not sure whether it's a penalty or free-kick but happy to go along with the poster who stated it should be a penalty against Williams.

Palmer's tackle on Lydiate is very marginal, there is the element of the tackler providing the initial lift, but the other part to a tip-tackle is "have the tackled player's hips travelled above his head", as I said, marginal but for me yes, just about.

It's easy to see how Rolland could miss it, maybe he didn't, maybe he saw it and thought it didn't merit further action, I doubt he saw Warburton's as a red card either, he was just doing what he was told via a remote control memo.

Not at all pj he was doing the exact same for Warburton as he did for Fritz. It is dangerous play end of

He must have missed Palmer's tackle then.

Different takle and just on the margin, similar to the one from Wilkinson...unlike Warburtons.

Here is a welsh man who shows how to carry out the tackle effectively (twice on the same player no less)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzN8Hg7yCkE

I don't think the first one would have escaped censure in the current climate.

thanks for the photo there, curlyosp.

yes it is a red. but refs dont always follow the irb guidelines, obviously.

if wales had had a man advantage in this game we might have only lost by a point

Sorry, but although time should heal and give perspective and all that crap, the longer that passes since Saturday the more peed off I am about Rolland's decision - or to be more accurate THE COMPLETE INCONSISTENCY IN THE REFEREEING OF THIS ASPECT OF THE GAME.

I've seen about 4 or 5 examples of tackles from this world cup alone that were as bad if not worse than Sam's tackle. The fact Rolland decided to make a stand against this in a WORLD CUP SEMI FINAL 18 MINS IN just marks him out as an absurd little Napoleon who in the heat of the moment wanted his five mins and probably regretted it immediately afterwards (or he certainly should have).

Yes - Sam should have seen yellow, and probably have had a ban, but so should have all these others. The idea of RED in this context, where there was clearly no intent and physics took over is UTTERLY RIDICULOUS.

To be honest, I'm more angry now than I was on the weekend. Rolland effectively ruined the end of the World Cup and has set up a final that everyone knows will be a procession for the All Blacks.

MarcusHalberstram wrote:Yes - Sam should have seen yellow, and probably have had a ban

If he should have had a ban, it would be because he committed a red card offense. So you agree that it merited a red card.

greybeard wrote:

MarcusHalberstram wrote:Yes - Sam should have seen yellow, and probably have had a ban

If he should have had a ban, it would be because he committed a red card offense. So you agree that it merited a red card.

If all citings and bans are supposedly for red card offences then you're saying we should have a red card practically every third game, which we clearly don't. I'm just asking for some consistency in reffing of this aspect of the game. These kind of tackles are usually dealt with by a yellow at the time, then it is up to the citing commissioner to decide the seriousness of the offence on the video evidence and act accordingly later. Rolland chose to do it his way without consulting the video at a once-in-4-years juncture. It was a ridiculous call.

Rolland didnt decide to take a stand. The IRB did. thats why refs and TJ's that only issued yellow in previous games were admonished and havent been in charge of the bigger games. we probably should see red more often than we do but referees cant see every incident (Kaplan and the Healy gouging incident) or they have opted out (ie Walsh). the fact that you have resorted to personal insults about the one guy who got it right says it all.

Rolland also isnt allowed to consult a video. Are you a WUM or have you not read through the numerous posts explaining this??

MarcusHalberstram wrote:

greybeard wrote:

MarcusHalberstram wrote:Yes - Sam should have seen yellow, and probably have had a ban

If he should have had a ban, it would be because he committed a red card offense. So you agree that it merited a red card.

If all citings and bans are supposedly for red card offences then you're saying we should have a red card practically every third game, which we clearly don't. I'm just asking for some consistency in reffing of this aspect of the game. These kind of tackles are usually dealt with by a yellow at the time, then it is up to the citing commissioner to decide the seriousness of the offence on the video evidence and act accordingly later. Rolland chose to do it his way without consulting the video at a once-in-4-years juncture. It was a ridiculous call.

You can only be cited for a red card, or an offense the citing officer thinks deserved a red. If you are saying that he should have had a ban, then you are saying it was a red.

It's what happens going forward that matters now. I expect to see a lot more red cards and a lot more over the top reactions from players to tackles - which is great as that's just what the game needs. It really added to the occasion on Saturday I thought and has led to the right final of the WC with the two best teams of the tournament shooting it out for glory. Fantastic to know that both teams will be briefed by their coaches to react in the strongest way to any dodgy tackles in the knowledge that this will help get the other team down to 14 men and therefore make a much better spectacle for all the fans that put so much time and love into this game. The future is bright...the future is RED.

deadfred wrote: a lot more over the top reactions from players to tackles -

This is the worst part of all this paranoid whinging thats been going on.The guy gets dropped on his head and doesn't spring straight back up so he's obviously play acting.

If you've ever played the game then you will remember plenty of times you were tackled or cleaned out legally and didn't get up straight away but were fine after taking minute or two to recover.The fact that he got up so quickly after being dumped on his neck and shoulders shows he wasn't play acting and it's pretty pathetic that anyone would say otherwise.

deadfred wrote:It's what happens going forward that matters now. I expect to see a lot more red cards and a lot more over the top reactions from players to tackles - which is great as that's just what the game needs. It really added to the occasion on Saturday I thought and has led to the right final of the WC with the two best teams of the tournament shooting it out for glory. Fantastic to know that both teams will be briefed by their coaches to react in the strongest way to any dodgy tackles in the knowledge that this will help get the other team down to 14 men and therefore make a much better spectacle for all the fans that put so much time and love into this game. The future is bright...the future is RED.

Ospreys/Wales would know all about the Hollywood performances to get someone sent off and banned. An Oscar winning performance by Jonathan Thomas in Thomond Park! The Ospreys even announced that he wouldn't be able to play the following weeks Thomas was so bad .... but guess what, as soon as the citing was over, Thomas was back in the starting line-up the following week with mission accomplished - Paul O'Connell suspended.

WillyGilly wrote:Wales deserved to win the semifinal. However with this continued excessive fuss over the 'controversial' decision, I'm finding my sympathy for Wales being replaced by annoyance.

Dude, I'm Welsh, and I'm with you. In the main though, most welsh rugby fans accept the card was correct and that missing kicks at goal cost us the game. Its the general rugby public (i find myself having to explain to hysterical colleagues in the office why it was correct) who have been led astray by very bad punditry and some categorically incorrect assessments of the tackle by the media.

Sin é wrote:

deadfred wrote:It's what happens going forward that matters now. I expect to see a lot more red cards and a lot more over the top reactions from players to tackles - which is great as that's just what the game needs. It really added to the occasion on Saturday I thought and has led to the right final of the WC with the two best teams of the tournament shooting it out for glory. Fantastic to know that both teams will be briefed by their coaches to react in the strongest way to any dodgy tackles in the knowledge that this will help get the other team down to 14 men and therefore make a much better spectacle for all the fans that put so much time and love into this game. The future is bright...the future is RED.

Ospreys/Wales would know all about the Hollywood performances to get someone sent off and banned. An Oscar winning performance by Jonathan Thomas in Thomond Park! The Ospreys even announced that he wouldn't be able to play the following weeks Thomas was so bad .... but guess what, as soon as the citing was over, Thomas was back in the starting line-up the following week with mission accomplished - Paul O'Connell suspended.

Sin, Im gonna assume that the posts where you're having a dig at welsh players are the minority of your posts, and its an unfortunate coincidence that these seem to be the majority of the posts i see.

Forgive me if this is the case, but otherwise, you do seem a little bitter bro!

Comfort wrote:

WillyGilly wrote:Wales deserved to win the semifinal. However with this continued excessive fuss over the 'controversial' decision, I'm finding my sympathy for Wales being replaced by annoyance.

Dude, I'm Welsh, and I'm with you. In the main though, most welsh rugby fans accept the card was correct and that missing kicks at goal cost us the game. Its the general rugby public (i find myself having to explain to hysterical colleagues in the office why it was correct) who have been led astray by very bad punditry and some categorically incorrect assessments of the tackle by the media.

i think this is a good point. I have seen numerous posts on facebook from people who are incensed that sean O'Brien hasnt been included on the IRB player of the year list on the basis that he is the ERC player of the year. That provincial performances arent considered hasnt stopped their posting!

Comfort wrote:

Sin é wrote:

deadfred wrote:It's what happens going forward that matters now. I expect to see a lot more red cards and a lot more over the top reactions from players to tackles - which is great as that's just what the game needs. It really added to the occasion on Saturday I thought and has led to the right final of the WC with the two best teams of the tournament shooting it out for glory. Fantastic to know that both teams will be briefed by their coaches to react in the strongest way to any dodgy tackles in the knowledge that this will help get the other team down to 14 men and therefore make a much better spectacle for all the fans that put so much time and love into this game. The future is bright...the future is RED.

Ospreys/Wales would know all about the Hollywood performances to get someone sent off and banned. An Oscar winning performance by Jonathan Thomas in Thomond Park! The Ospreys even announced that he wouldn't be able to play the following weeks Thomas was so bad .... but guess what, as soon as the citing was over, Thomas was back in the starting line-up the following week with mission accomplished - Paul O'Connell suspended.

Sin, Im gonna assume that the posts where you're having a dig at welsh players are the minority of your posts, and its an unfortunate coincidence that these seem to be the majority of the posts i see.

Forgive me if this is the case, but otherwise, you do seem a little bitter bro!

I'm just totally fed up of some Welsh supporters still banging on about Warburton getting red carded. Only way to deal with such bitterness emenating from Wales is to respond in kind - they might understand that. Just being tough to be kind

haha that tough love sorta thing, but please, if you're fed up, imagine those of us with 2 open eyes living in Wales

Comfort wrote:haha that tough love sorta thing, but please, if you're fed up, imagine those of us with 2 open eyes living in Wales

I feel for you. It must be a nightmare.

Well I can understand that any suppoerter who had one of their players sent off by a red card would be dissappointed. Whether it was a correct call or not.

What I also agree with is that in this case Rolland did what the directive from the IRB stated.

absolutely Bil, i feel every bit of their dissappointment, but its just one of those things. if clerc had landed slightly differently, we could have been talking about a career ending injury (not to even mention the possibilities of disability).

Whether there was intent or not, the possiblity of a very bad outcome is the same. Funny thing is, had we made a couple of those kicks this would not be such a recurring theme

True, but as I say, one second of a brain fart by an astute player and the challenge becomes almost insurmountable.

You got to feel at least a little empathy for them, even for those that whinge, well for a little while at least, say 7 days of empathy?

7 days is definitely long enough for mourning. But its too long to be calling for Rollands head or for law changes.

and bil, im still stuck in the "what if" phase of mourning, I genuinely believe we could have given the all blacks the game of the tournament with a full squad.

but alas, we'll never know, and no reason to not enjoy the rugby thats left. I mean how often is it we have games of this magnitude so readily and easily available for everyone to watch repeatedly!

no doubt ill get back to the ref-abuse after some sort of controversial call ends up with us in 4th

Sin é wrote:

Comfort wrote:

Sin é wrote:

deadfred wrote:It's what happens going forward that matters now. I expect to see a lot more red cards and a lot more over the top reactions from players to tackles - which is great as that's just what the game needs. It really added to the occasion on Saturday I thought and has led to the right final of the WC with the two best teams of the tournament shooting it out for glory. Fantastic to know that both teams will be briefed by their coaches to react in the strongest way to any dodgy tackles in the knowledge that this will help get the other team down to 14 men and therefore make a much better spectacle for all the fans that put so much time and love into this game. The future is bright...the future is RED.

Ospreys/Wales would know all about the Hollywood performances to get someone sent off and banned. An Oscar winning performance by Jonathan Thomas in Thomond Park! The Ospreys even announced that he wouldn't be able to play the following weeks Thomas was so bad .... but guess what, as soon as the citing was over, Thomas was back in the starting line-up the following week with mission accomplished - Paul O'Connell suspended.

Sin, Im gonna assume that the posts where you're having a dig at welsh players are the minority of your posts, and its an unfortunate coincidence that these seem to be the majority of the posts i see.

Forgive me if this is the case, but otherwise, you do seem a little bitter bro!

I'm just totally fed up of some Welsh supporters still banging on about Warburton getting red carded. Only way to deal with such bitterness emenating from Wales is to respond in kind - they might understand that. Just being tough to be kind

Sin e, it's not just welsh fans though is it. One of the biggest posters on the subject on these boards, and someone hugely against the decision, is PJ Holybloke who is an English poster. Don't tar a whole nation with 1 brush.

Well Laurie Mains believes SA and Wales were knocked out due to referee blunders and believes Wales and Sa would have been much better opposition in the final.

( At least one guy on our side)

its true bil, wales only lost games due to refereeing decisions.....

.... the 3 points that never was against SA and the redcard that should have never been against France

biltongbek wrote:Well Laurie Mains believes SA and Wales were knocked out due to referee blunders and believes Wales and Sa would have been much better opposition in the final.

( At least one guy on our side)

Remember Biltong, Mains is also the man who started the whole Suzy the Waitress story in '95

Yeah, but Mains was also the coach who gave the golden Lions a very good era.

As for suzie, never met her, never cared about her. In fact the first time I heard about suzie was when i joined 606 in 2009.

biltongbek wrote:Yeah, but Mains was also the coach who gave the golden Lions a very good era.

As for suzie, never met her, never cared about her. In fact the first time I heard about suzie was when i joined 606 in 2009.

Only teasing Biltong.

I forgot about Mains stint at the Lions. I tend to remember him for his unfortunate final stint at the Highlanders, which had rather a lot of parallels with Mark Hammet at the Hurricanes this year.

I was actually hoping at one stage that he could become the Bok coach a few years back, I think he could have made a big difference for us.

Complte digression but who do you see getting that job Bek and will they keep the mature core or go for younger players.

With a few small changes SA could go from being my least favourite internatonal side to my favourite international side - Bekker, Lambie, de Jongh, Hougaard and Potgieter to name a few.

Stag, SARU is remaining very quiet about this, and that worries me, now that they have opened the gate for appointing coaches for non rugby reasons, it will enable them to appoint whomever they want.

Looking at the way they want to keep the sports committee on their side I fear it will not be the best coach. At least i will be very surprised of it is the best coach for the job.

I don't want Heyneke Meyer, he provides more of the same style we have been playing.

I think it might be Allister coetzee. He isn't bad, but still hasn't taught the Stormers how to score tries.

I am leaning towards either John Plumtree, John Mitchell, Rassie Erasmus, or Naka Drotske.

They all seem to beleive in attacking rugby, but I doubt any of them will get the job.

Surely no one takes PJHolybloke's post seriously?

It's a WUM account - a Welshman in disguise.

Nick Mallet? Bergamasco at scrumhalf aside, hes a brilliant coach.

and stag, potgeiter's an animal.

deadfred wrote:It's what happens going forward that matters now. I expect to see a lot more red cards and a lot more over the top reactions from players to tackles - which is great as that's just what the game needs. It really added to the occasion on Saturday I thought and has led to the right final of the WC with the two best teams of the tournament shooting it out for glory. Fantastic to know that both teams will be briefed by their coaches to react in the strongest way to any dodgy tackles in the knowledge that this will help get the other team down to 14 men and therefore make a much better spectacle for all the fans that put so much time and love into this game. The future is bright...the future is RED.

now that is how to WUM

Yeah, i mentioned Mallet a number of times, completely forgot about him in the moment.

Dewald Potgieter is a wimp. He is definitely the last player apart from wynand Olivier I want to see in a bok jersey.

These guys are the next stars for the Boks.

Bismarck
Coenie Oosthuizen
Andries Bekker
Willem Alberts
Jean Deysel
Francois Hougaard
Patric Lambie
Johann Sadie
Lwasi Mvovo
And of course Frans Steyn.