Laurie Mains on world cup refereeing.

Laurie Mains former All Black coach was not too happy about the quality of the refereeing during this world cup. He doesn't beleive the French are good enough to challenge the All Blacks in the final. He believes the All Blacks should win by more than 20 points in the final.

Excerpts from the article in New Zealand Herald.

"I've been appalled by the refereeing, especially how they have decided games with scrum penalties," Mains said.

"Games have been won and lost from scrum penalties when the wrong decision was made. You should not have a situation in rugby where games are won and lost by the referee's guess," he said.

Referees had decided the outcome of games by wrong decisions.

"A lot of times when penalties were awarded, I couldn't tell who was at fault. There was no way that the referee knew. It should have been a reset scrum."

The other teams to impress Mains were Wales and South Africa, teams he thought were taken out of the tournament by bad refereeing decisions.

"I would have felt a lot better about winning the World Cup if Wales or South Africa had been the other team in the final," Mains said.

"They would have been worthy opponents for the All Blacks."

While he might have a point I find some statements baffling. Just because he doesn't know why some penalties are given it doesn't mean the ref shares his ignorance.

And if he doesn't know why a penalty is given he can hardly say it was wrong, so he can't really say it's poor quality ref-ing. Besides, many scrum penalties are called by the AR over the reflink, so it's not one single persons call.

All a bit silly.

And "I would have felt a lot better about winning...", er, steady on mate, the game hasn't even been played yet!

agree fully, should have been a Wales/SA rematch for the cup

That would have been a very good match.

And "I would have felt a lot better about winning...", er, steady on mate, the game hasn't even been played yet!.

Not a comment I'd make lightly considering the French are at their most dangerous when under fire and written off. If the French team bother to turn up then the could beat the All Blacks. If they don't bother to turn up then it will be whole sale slaughter.

No, he has a point. the AR may spot something, but in truth both sets of props are committing penalty offences at each scrum.

IRB, its simple. Take the hit out, engage passively, take the strain and push when the ball comes in.

Allez les Bleus!

Oui!

I'd rather have a ref spending a few minutes checking the binding before the ball comes in so you get one scrum, than a number of repeated scrums.

Glas a du wrote:No, he has a point. the AR may spot something, but in truth both sets of props are committing penalty offences at each scrum.

IRB, its simple. Take the hit out, engage passively, take the strain and push when the ball comes in.

Agree entirely.

red_stag wrote:

Glas a du wrote:No, he has a point. the AR may spot something, but in truth both sets of props are committing penalty offences at each scrum.

IRB, its simple. Take the hit out, engage passively, take the strain and push when the ball comes in.

Agree entirely.

I've yet to see any good argument to keep "the hit", especially as it is not in the law book in any way shape or form.

I think my favourite part of this is the contradiction:

1 - Referees are making wrong scrum calls that decide the matches

2 - I am unable to recognise right from wrong at scrums

To be fair he does say the referees are guessing.

But how would he know?

He's guessing that they're guessing.

What is it about us as humans that we're more inclined to believe anecdotes more than evidence?

And I apologise to any non-humans that may have been offended by that

red_stag wrote:But how would he know?

Stag you are a referee, are you certain who the culprit is every time you give a penalty?

I simply can't accept that the ref knows with certainty every time he gives a penalty at the scrum. There are enough knowledgeable ex players and pundits that challenge scrum decisions and these days the TV coverage allows us to see most of the detail.

Most of us accept a ref is going to make some mistakes - get an offside wrong, miss a forward pass etc, but games shouldn't be decided by a guess.

Bilton - certainly not always no. Refs definitely make mistakes its part and parcel of life.

But do you not see the irony in someone saying they can't tell whats going on at the scrum and then tries to guess the reasons a ref made a scrum call and then uses that guess to criticise.

Its nonsense. Give me a scrum expert pointing out specific examples instead of this wishy washy nonsense.

Stag, i agree with you, but we have all lamented the fact that scrums at the best of times are a toss up, and sadly perhpas he is directing his opinion at the wrong people, maybe he needs to direct it at the law of scrumming not the referees.

Ah he's probably right referees at top level are getting it wrong. But he has no examples and said that he himself can't tell whats happening at scrums. Thats all that I find funny - how can he criticise others when he can't figure it out himself.

Some refs like your pal Bryce Lawrence and I would say Rolland do not ref the scrum well at all. I think that the ref who guesses most at scrums is Poite.

Poite doesn't guess. He has a precise algorithm based on always awarding the penalty to the team dominating the scrum, regardless of the reasons of their dominance (legal or otherwise)

Don't you ever call Bruce Lawrence my pal, shame on you.

I hate him, I dislike the man intensely, now you made me having to go back to therapy.

shame on you Stag.


Yeah, i don't know, but the IRB is going to have to find a solution for some of the areas that are so contentious.

perhaps the fact that the same problems are constantly recurring during the biggest rugby spectacle in the world will make the IRB sit-up, take notice and give some new directives on certain issues....

.... well, we can hope.

My concern with all the talk about the refs is the trickle down effect it has on amateur rugby. With all the high-profile criticism of refs (even though it may be accurate) I fear it could undermine the 'dignity of the office of referee' such that club players and school players begin to feel that it is fair game to criticise and insult the ref - and where might we end up: with soccer's total disrespect for the ref?

I like the way the armchair folk are arguing with Laurie Mains

He just stating what normal folk think and not people who are sour becuase they didn't get to the final themselves

Why would the Herald bother to write an article outlining the opinions of s person who doesnt know the basis upon which referees are basing their rulings?............... When they could go to one of these wise,master of the game referees,who have all the knowledge?

For me its all about luck.

2007 we got the Barnes episode of it. One cup gone.

2011 its apparently SA and Wales turn. Perhaps another.

Show me one ref who hasnt been the subject of a vitriolic attack.

Fans and the media don't help. After the SA match 'act', 'act' they yell. Don't just stand there and do nothing. People are getting away with murder!!

A week later Roland does just that. Quick, decisive, sends the terrible man off. "There- I acted"

What happens. Two hundred more posts about 'wrong decision', 'didnt even take any time to think about it' blah blah.

No wonder theres no consistency.

With the present rules its all about luck. No one here has convinced me of anything else that even closely explains it better.

I can't agree more Taylorman, $h1t luck

if anyone thought some of us were being abit harsh on the french- jeasus- that writer would have been kicked out of the news of the world with that article- lol

i do agree that we seriously need to tighten up consistancy- but he is mental lol. talk about propaganda against the french- he has the past affecting him in a big way!

Glas a du wrote:No, he has a point. the AR may spot something, but in truth both sets of props are committing penalty offences at each scrum.

IRB, its simple. Take the hit out, engage passively, take the strain and push when the ball comes in.

Sedition!

The only thing you should passively in rugby is accept that the Capt
(tighthead)
pissing on you in the shower after your debut is quite normal and to be regarded as being anointed

gatts what the heck are you writing about- Are you ferrel or something?

The scrum is still a major issue in rugby. Its so time consuming and is just plain messy. I cant really fault the referee's for 'having guess's or incorrect decisions' as it is it can be a nightmare to officiate.

That said, i feel the standard of refereeing has been a little poor this RWC. I really didnt like that Tier 2 teams given so many chance in 'the spirit of the game' instead of being pinged. They are there to play in the big time and should be officiated in the big time, regardless of the score.

To be fair, quoting people by the media is often poetic licence. Laurie Mains and obviously still is a grumpy old man.

I think the sensible thing to take out of this article are that some laws need redressing and they figure particularly in the scrums and the breakdown area. There doesn´t seem to be black and white given the refereeing but many different shades of grey.

I wish they'd revoke Pam Ayres' poetic licence.

Too many ex-players haven't got a clue about how the rules stand now. All they resort to is 'in my day' philosophy. Times have changed, the games has changed. Move on and learn the rules instead of complaining about them