"Ben (Youngs) has returned from the World Cup unfit to play." - Cockerill

So, apparently Ben Youngs in't fit to feature in tonight's LV Cup encounter with Gloucester at Welford Road. Most of the international contingent return to the 1st XV, including M Tuilagi, A Tuilagi, Croft, Cole, Flood etc

Anyone else get the impression that Youngs never reached 100% fitness and was therefore "forced" into playing? He scored a couple of decent tries but was well below par in every other instance. Don't remember any injury either.

To be fair Ben Youngs was well over rated BEFORE the world cup

Its no a case of being "forced" into playinmg its a case of managing injury. Its pretty common for players to be banged up with painkillers for minor injuries that dont hamper their playing but will require rest or surgery later.

Clubs do it as much as international sides, and Tigers are comepnsated for his obligations under the EPS. Its actually an importnat part of that agreement that England get full control of the players medical and fitness regimes across the entire season. Yes it would be managed to benefit England ahead of his club (and possibly his long term fitness), but thats hardly suprising in a world cup.

By whom? Everyone knew he had a slightly mecurial streak and that he was a talented youngster still developing his game. It was a big injury to pick up going into a RWC where he got no games before hand and was expected to be the starting selection inside of a 10 he hadn't played with and who played a contrasting style to his own.

Never got anywhere near his best form but he didn't let the side down and rescued us against Argentina and put together several phases of excellent play to create the first try vs France.

I sense Cockers is annoyed that Youngs was actually taken to the RWC.

Tigers need to start winning and winning a lot. Cockers sounds hugely frustrated.

Hes just continuing to make a point regarding how the domestic season has been trashed by the world cup, and you can hardly blame hium.
Waldfdrom goign was perhaps the worst example. Noone expected him to be qualified when he signed for Tigers, noone expected him to go when he was released form the squad, and then he went and didnt play. Ridiculous.

The jeff, robocop, and Luther Vandross have all been damaged by the world cup. There will be more disruption from the six nations too. Its something that needs adressing for 2015, the club game is on its knees anyway without this additional mauling.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Hes just continuing to make a point regarding how the domestic season has been trashed by the world cup, and you can hardly blame hium.
Waldfdrom goign was perhaps the worst example. Noone expected him to be qualified when he signed for Tigers, noone expected him to go when he was released form the squad, and then he went and didnt play. Ridiculous.

The jeff, robocop, and Luther Vandross have all been damaged by the world cup. There will be more disruption from the six nations too. Its something that needs adressing for 2015, the club game is on its knees anyway without this additional mauling.

What!? The global show case tournament and sole focus of so many nations aspirations, and the ultimate arena for young rugby players to aspire to has mildly inconvenienced a northern hemipshere domestic club competition? There was a distinct lack of anyone making this point in 2003... Just saying.

fushnchups wrote:What!? The global show case tournament and sole focus of so many nations aspirations, and the ultimate arena for young rugby players to aspire to has mildly inconvenienced a northern hemipshere domestic club competition? There was a distinct lack of anyone making this point in 2003... Just saying.

Well there wasnt was there because the fallout from that was part of the reason for the EPS existing now

Quite right PSW. The bickering between the clubs and the RFU over player release, particularly in RWC years, has been going on for years. It wasn't until the EPS deal was signed that a semi accepted peace treaty was agreed but I wouldn't back that not to open up into a whole can of worms again.

Retreats slowly from argument.

Fair enough.

It was worse in 2003 if anything

you could question the fitness of a number of key players in the WC squad.

Lawes, Easter, Cueto, Moody and Youngs all suffered injuries that made them miss games. Once returned none of them played particularly well. How much of this is down to the fact they may we still have been injured?

It's a gamble all coaching teams make, playing players who may not be fit, but to me it doesn't look like it's worked.

If anything it's proved that Youngs is very immature and needs time to grow as a player. If he was injured, he should have been the bigger man and admit it, so the squad could have drafted in a replacement.

If anything it's proved that Youngs is very immature and needs time to grow as a player. If he was injured, he should have been the bigger man and admit it, so the squad could have drafted in a replacement

Absolute horse swill and you know it. 99.9% of rugby players would play with an injury if it meant a shot at the RWC. Quite a few did, including the AB legend Richie McCaw. The medical staff must have been aware that he wasn't fully fit, the operation they set up for him must have been a hint, yet still allowed him to play and the England management selected him repeatedly and even encouraged him to start games. England badly needed a shot in the arm and so they gambled on Youngs to provide it as even half fit he was still the best scrum half they had available.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

If anything it's proved that Youngs is very immature and needs time to grow as a player. If he was injured, he should have been the bigger man and admit it, so the squad could have drafted in a replacement

Absolute horse swill and you know it. 99.9% of rugby players would play with an injury if it meant a shot at the RWC. Quite a few did, including the AB legend Richie McCaw. The medical staff must have been aware that he wasn't fully fit, the operation they set up for him must have been a hint, yet still allowed him to play and the England management selected him repeatedly and even encouraged him to start games. England badly needed a shot in the arm and so they gambled on Youngs to provide it as even half fit he was still the best scrum half they had available.

Not one that is deemed "unplayable"!!! That's if Cockers and the Tigers medics are being truthful. Accepted that no-one's ever 100%, I know I never was!

What is there to gain for Cockers and the Tigers medics in being untruthful? They are already missing Micky Young and are now down to Grindal and academy scrum half Sam Harrison. I think Cockers would much prefer Youngs to be ready to return as Tigers have been terrible so far and his job is under threat if things don't improve quickly.

bathmad

he may have aggravated it against france, though. just because he's unfit to play now doesn't mean someone's made a huge mistake or is lying. it could just mean that england took a necessary gamble on rushing him back, and now he's made it a bit worse.

His performances would suggest otherwise.

bathmad wrote:His performances would suggest otherwise.

he was bad against scotland, but he's taken more flak than he deserved. won us the game against argentina, remember.

His performaces were below par due in descending order of importance to:

>Lack of match fitness - having played no part in the warm ups
>England unable to secure good ball at breakdowns
>Haskell unable to control the ball at the back of the scrum
>Wilkinson moving ever deeper without communicating
>Some continuing niggle from the original injury

I remember two scrums in the whole tournement where Haskell lost the ball at the base.

Now out of god knows how many, and even if there were a few more i missed then that's not too shabby for a fairly new 8. Also i really fail to see how this is such a big thing. I regularly play behind a poor scrum and fumbling 8 but except for having to be creative at scrum time it doesn't impact.

I really think too much is made of this 8's must control the ball at the base business. Yes it's usefu and should be a given, but fumbles happen and not just to Haskell.

Sorry to rant but i'm just a bit tired of that point.

i'll go breath now.

EnglishReign wrote:So, apparently Ben Youngs in't fit to feature in tonight's LV Cup encounter with Gloucester at Welford Road. Most of the international contingent return to the 1st XV, including M Tuilagi, A Tuilagi, Croft, Cole, Flood etc

Anyone else get the impression that Youngs never reached 100% fitness and was therefore "forced" into playing? He scored a couple of decent tries but was well below par in every other instance. Don't remember any injury either.

Give him a water squirting rose, a red nose and a pair of giant red shoes and he'll be fit to play in no time

Their coach was also unfit.

yappysnap wrote:I remember two scrums in the whole tournement where Haskell lost the ball at the base.

Now out of god knows how many, and even if there were a few more i missed then that's not too shabby for a fairly new 8. Also i really fail to see how this is such a big thing. I regularly play behind a poor scrum and fumbling 8 but except for having to be creative at scrum time it doesn't impact.

I really think too much is made of this 8's must control the ball at the base business. Yes it's usefu and should be a given, but fumbles happen and not just to Haskell.

Sorry to rant but i'm just a bit tired of that point.

i'll go breath now.

Agreed, yappy, it's not the most challenging of skills by any stretch unless your pack is advancing really fast or getting twisted

Why are the English teams fielding such strong squads for the LV games?

I was under the impression that a "gentlemen's agreement" was made on not using first choice players until the later stages ?

I doubt such an agreement exists - the competition only really matters to English sides, particularly those who may not finish top 6 or 7.

I'm not sure they are all playing particularly strong sides, but where they are playing big name players it is probably to try to reintegrate the WC players before the HC starts.

munkian wrote:To be fair Ben Youngs was well over rated BEFORE the world cup

Well you might have a point, being a Welsh supporter you are bound to be an expert in over rating..

viewtothegym wrote:Why are the English teams fielding such strong squads for the LV games?

I was under the impression that a "gentlemen's agreement" was made on not using first choice players until the later stages ?

Its not that difficult to understand, well maybe it is for some. Anyway, there is no such agreement, and it is also a good chance to reintegrate returning WC players before the league commences again this coming weekend.

Don't remember any injury either..

The knee surgery before the RWC meaning he missed the warm up games?

Agreed, yappy, it's not the most challenging of skills by any stretch unless your pack is advancing really fast or getting twisted.

You say that but a suprising number of makeshift 8s lose control and put their 9 in the firing line. Scrappy ball at interntaional level is also a guarentee to get smashed as the 9 is always going to struggle to get it away and that gives the opposition flankers time to bear down on him and the fly half.