What does a win against Haye do for Wlad's Legacy?

There has been alot of talk about Daye Haye's legacy, most of it by Haye himself, and what a win against Wlad and/or Vitali would prove. However, what does a win for Wlad against Haye prove? It would give him another belt, but then Vitali would still hold a belt meaning he had not truely unified (I expect Vitali retires at this point and lets Wlad get hold of his remaining title). He would be the recognised number one, but he is currently that. I expect if he does beat Haye in convincing fashion Haye will be discarded as unproven at heavyweight and never a threat. A win against Haye would not rate any higher than his victories over Samual Peters or Chagaev. I don't think Wlad will ever be able to silence his critics - everyone states he is chinny and look at his 3 defeats - but the last was 7 years ago - about the same time Haye was being stopped by the Cat. I think Wlad can rule the current Heavyweight division for as long as he wants - but I think his legacy will stay static until he retires.
No doubt he will be looked back at fondly 10-20 years after his retirement date when his record is viewed and analysed by the new breed of boxing fan.

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Can we just see if they sign first? Unless i'm missing something barring they're in negotiations. Again.

Imo it would take him above his brother for sure (even it could be argued either way who's legacy is better)

if he beat haye and he beat adamek, povetkin and one or two more - top 20 heavy definite

I think you are right to an extent. If Wlad beat him and Haye retired, Haye would be seen as a flash in the pan at HW by a lot of people.

He has his cruiserweight achievements, but I think when people look back at them they wont really be looked upon with that much admiration. Two title fights, one good but not elite opponent and another with a habit of getting knocked out at title level.

So, a world champion, but so have a few of his opponents been. Better in skill but I don't think it will add as much to his CV as seems to be the general opinion, of a defining fight. What it will do, is set him up possibly being undisputed if his brother retires, politics allowing.

I seriously doubt that either Klitschko will leave a lasting legacy.

They have enjoyed financial and other benefits from having been brothers who have sat atop the heavyweight division but the trade off comes in the fact that they have done so simultaneously. The result is that, subconciously at least, we seldom assess them as individuals. Arguments have raged for years, and will doubtless continue to rage, concerning which of Tyson, Holyfield and Lewis was really the guv'nor, but it's rare to find heated debate concerning which of the Klitschkos is really ' the man.' Rather, we tend to build a composite of the two.

Of course, none of us knows how they will be assessed twenty years from now, but that would be my gut feeling. It is also my gut feeling that it won't much concern them. They are, after all, businessmen, and probably to a greater extent than somebody like Tyson or Holyfield, for whom a place in history seemed to be as important as the money.

I think they have ruled for so long that it would be impossible to ignore them in the future. They have been the best heavyweights for the best part of a decade which is hard to ignore.

Circumstances have made it hard for them to build a legacy. Lack of rivals, lack of U.S talent in the division etc

I think they will always do better in the "head to head" who would win scenarios then actually get rated high up the list. For instance I would have Vitali beating beating a good few of the ex champions but acknowledg he will never rank ahead of them in any list.

I think ultimately they will be largely respected, but never really remebered fondly, as champions who ruled an unremarkeable era of heavyweight boxing.

manos de piedra wrote:
I think they will always do better in the "head to head" who would win scenarios then actually get rated high up the list. For instance I would have Vitali beating beating a good few of the ex champions but acknowledg he will never rank ahead of them in any list.

I agree, due to their size and the fact they utilise what tools they have very well, both of them would always be a tought fight for any of the past greats. Another problem for me is there reluctance not to fight each other (though understandable). The winner of that one at least might be helded in a much higher regard.

proven or unproven at heavyweight - haye is regarded at his only real threat - it would mean Wlad didnt duck anyone and took on every single fighter worth a challenge - and beat.

must be good knowing no other boxer on the planet could beat him in a ring.

OasisBFC wrote:proven or unproven at heavyweight - haye is regarded at his only real threat - it would mean Wlad didnt duck anyone and took on every single fighter worth a challenge - and beat.

must be good knowing no other boxer on the planet could beat him in a ring.

But there's the problem, Oasis.

Vitali might well have beaten him, or vice versa, and that will surely leave question marks hanging over them in the long term. Had they not been brothers, and had one prevailed over the other, I believe that a lasting legacy would be assured.

Its a good point. But I have no gripes with them being brothers and not facing.

It's a sporting rarity to have 2 brothers equally as good - the williams sisters is maybe their only comparison. even then, one is always much better than the other.

same with the Neville brothers, and the Charlton brothers - Gary and Bobby were always better than Phil and Jackie.

but to have 2 brothers, who no one would give good odds on who would win if they were to meet - who are head and shoulders above their competition and have been for years - i think we should remember it as a once in a lifetime thing. i think its great - and if haye knocks out Wlad, and goes for Vitali, in those 2 fights he's made himself a legend of the sport.

a long shot, but i can dream.

If Haye beats both, a place in history will be assured. IF.

OasisBFC wrote:and if haye knocks out Wlad, and goes for Vitali, in those 2 fights he's made himself a legend of the sport.

a long shot, but i can dream.

Me too, Oasis.

I'd love to see the three of them sort it out, whoever ends up at the top of the pile.

Vitali for me will always be the better of the two even though I suspect Wlad will end up with the better c.v overall (assuming he beats Haye).

The difference between a granite chin like Vitalis and a fragile one like Wlads is huge at heavyweight level when the other differences betweeen them are marginal.

I dont think either brother has a legacy, its a shame that they came around the time the hw devision was phasing out. The likes of tyson and lewis had gone or was going and they've been left with either over weight americans or beefed up russians to bash up.

Even Tyson, Lewis, Holyfield were struggling for a decent fight towards the end.

It's just hard to like the K Brothers.I can see a case for them both in the Hall of Fame, but let's face it,apart from the Lennox Lewis fight, which of them have been in a defining fight?
Wlad may have sorted his past problems out, but we may never know because his style is so deadly boring.Am not a fan of Haye,(per se!) but I would put money on him beating Wlad.
Vitali, I feel a degree of sympaty for as he is does indeed have "a granite chin"....but as for his CV , well you just have to say it's not that impressive.
To compare Haye to Samuel Peter is nonsense.Peter didn't come to fight against Vitali, a thoroughly average fighter.
As someone who went off Haye massively last year, I still can't wait for him to fight Wlad.Looks like they both want the fight this time.
The question of Haye's legacy if he does beat Wlad...and retires...or loses to Vitali...that's moer interesting to me.

A win against Haye, while not adding such a lot in some ways DOES serve to underline Wladimir's authority, and would remove the last of the excuses that any naysayers would have over Wladimir's legitimacy. It'd be more a case of dotting the 'i's and crossing the 't's than anything else.

A win over Hae does very little for Wlads legacy as far as I am concerned.

Haye has barely ever beaten a good fighter which is the central point for me. That he had/has titles is simply down to favourable circumstances and self promotion. Style over substance in short. He brings money, he brings hype and publicity but does he really bring legacy enhancing quality? Highly debateable. Whats more if he loses to Wlad, his record looks worse to boot and will be seen in this context rather than his self styled image of the saviour of boxing that he enjoys currently.

Wlad will be no nearer a top 15 spot and Haye will be in the mix for one of the worst alphabet holders in history.

Colonial Lion makes a good point.

Right now we are viewing Haye in the context of a potential unified heavyweight champion with lots of potential. If Wlad beats him then that context will shift entirely and people will look at him as a paper heavyweight champ with no major heavyweight pedigree so it wont add as much to Wlads legacy.

Its a probem the Klitschkos have, whenever they beat someone they are disregarded regardless of how they were viewed going into the fight. Haye would probably be the biggest example of that as he has the most hype.

Maybe in Britain, Wlad might get a bit more kudos because Haye is rated highly here. Everywhere else, probably not as much.

It would add nothing to Wlads legacy, if haye was gonna be around for a few more years and went on to dominate the HW division then people would see it as a legacy enhancing fight. Since Haye wont be around to do this however he is always gonna be seen as nothing more than a blown up cruiser that took an opportunity to take an easy title.

Seems a bit unfair that a fight that could make hayes legacy does nothing to wlads but thats the way the cookie bounces

It would however remove the myth that Wlad had avoided fighters in the hw division, although I expect Valuev would still be raised! He would have beaten every viable contender, bar Vitali, over the last 7 years

How fast can you punch?