England Moving Forward

With Moody and Shaw announcing there international retirements and Tindall and Easter soon to follow in aid of the development of English Rugby. This would be my next England Squad moving forward.

15 B.Foden & M.Brown

14. C.Ashton & C.Sharples

13 M.Tuilagi & D.Waldouck

12 B.Barritt & A.Allen

11 M.Banahan & M.Benjamin

10 D.Cipriani & T.Flood & O.Farrell

09 D.Care & B.Youngs

08 L.Narraway & J.Haskell

07 C.Robshaw & C.Fearns

06 T.Croft & T.Wood

05 D.Attwood & T.Palmer

04. C.Lawes & L.Deacon

03. D.Cole & M.Stevens

02. D.Hartley & R.Webber & D.Paice

01. A.Corbisiero & J.Marler

In a lot of ways not a bad squad but.......

Mike Brown is behind Armitage in the pecking order, though I do like him as a player.
Cipriani and Haskell will be plying their trade in Australia and Japan - cannot really be included in any training squad. (Which I guess renders irrelevant the fact that Cipriani has done nothing for 2 years to show he deserves an international spot).
Problem at openside is not solved by selecting two 6s there.
Marler has yet to develop his scrummaging enough to survive against quality front rows.

And if you think I am mainly slating your Quin's players: Allan is a very good premiership player, but not good enough to play internationals and Deacon should be left out now.


Oh and Banahan and Benjamin? Really?

I would of thought that maybe instead of Mike Brown,you would of gone for Andy Goode, no not the one who used to play for leciester the other one.

How can you include Haskell and Cipriani when they are both abroad and will not beable to make any training siessions at all.
I would of thought by now that Noha Cato would of got a chance. Have not seen to mutch of MARLER to be honest.

As much as Easter may not be the all action hero No 8....i just think he may be needed at least for the next season.....whilst we decide WHO is actually fit the for the No.8 shirt.....

Also....
1) I rate waldouck highly...but he is (at the moment) behind Trinder and Lowe for the 13 shirt...

2) Fearns is not a 7...he is playing 6 and earmarked for the vital 8 spot....

majesticimperialman wrote:I would of thought that maybe instead of Mike Brown,you would of gone for Andy Goode, no not the one who used to play for leciester the other one.

I think you mean Alex Goode? He's a good shout at fullback, but still there are better options at fullback I think.

England really need to sort out their openside position! Playing a 6 or a 6.5 there doesn't cut it at international level anymore. It's no coincidence that the teams in the semi-finals all had born and bred fetchers in the 7 shirt. England need one if we are to compete. As much as I like Robshaw, he's not a 7, but can fill the role nicely temporarily. At the moment, I think Tom Wood is the player with the best openside attributes, but feel he could need a bit more bulk to fully impose himself....

Mike Brown looks really good for us, but I think his tendency not to pass would leave him very vulnerable at international level. He's a good enough counter attacker to get away with it in the premiership, but against an international kick-chase? I'm not so sure.

Marler in the loose is better than any prop England had in their squad after Sheridan's injury, but LondonTiger is right about his scrummaging at the moment. He's still only 21 though, so there's plenty of time for that to change.

I think Banahan's international future will have to be in the centres. He's looked strongest there for England, and it plays to his strengths more. He's a good passer and offloader, and can make ground in midfield. I'm not convinced about him on the wing for England, though.

I'm not sure it's quite time to get rid of Thompson yet either. He may not have had a brilliant world cup but he'll most likely be ahead of Webber at Wasps, and he's still a very valuable asset in the scrum. I'm not so keen on the idea of guys just inheriting a shirt because the person ahead has retired. You need competition in the squad, and Thompson is still the best person to give us that. Hartley still has to prove he's good enough to be a long term international at this level.

On the back row - Robshaw may not be a traditional 7, but Croft isn't a traditional flanker at all and I doubt many of us want him out. I really don't like the idea of a Croft/Wood partnership. It just doesn't have the required physicality (though I know people will disagree).

Of the thirty players you name, imo I don't think at least 7 should be on your list (Brown, Waldouck, Allen, Banahan, Cipriani, Deacon, Stevens) with questions over Croft (not cutting it) and Marler (too soon to tell). You haven't named an openside either - with plenty of evidence at this WC that the specialist openside is alive and well !

England have some excellent young players but I rarely see much agreement on the best talent. Too big a choice methinks

Only a Quins fan would pick Mike Brown!

offload wrote:Of the thirty players you name, imo I don't think at least 7 should be on your list (Brown, Waldouck, Allen, Banahan, Cipriani, Deacon, Stevens) with questions over Croft (not cutting it) and Marler (too soon to tell). You haven't named an openside either - with plenty of evidence at this WC that the specialist openside is alive and well !

England have some excellent young players but I rarely see much agreement on the best talent. Too big a choice methinks

I'm petty surprised that your not sure on Croft, he's a dead cert for me, possibly a captain too.

I used to think that but I don't think he has shown much form of late. In the warm up in Cardiff I thought he was one of best forwards but he had an average WC. I think England have a number of good 6's and he'll do well to be first choice.

Wouldn't be surprised to see Parling in the mix. As well of Joseph, who looks excellent for Irish.

Can't see why people are persisting with the Waldouck thing. He hasn't looked up to it for about 2 seasons now.

I'd love to see Joseph training with the squad. Wouldn't make the starting XV just yet, but maybe the bench covering centre & wing.

In fairness to Waldouck, he's spent large parts of the last 2 seasons struggling with injuries. I've really rated him in the past, but there's no way he should be selected without showing some serious form and last weekend was his first game back.

I haven't seen Brown play this season, but he was superb last season, best FB after Foden by a stretch, probably better than Foden in some of the classic FB skills. The only thing that counts against him in my book is that he doesn't cover other positions. That's fine if he's your starting FB, but Foden is first choice and it's preferential for your back up to be more versatile. If Foden was injured I wouldn't hesitate to start brown though.

Cipriani did nothing in Super Rugby last season to warrant selection, he's still got a lot to prove.

To be fair, I think Croft's reputation stems mainly from the fact that he seems to occasionally appear on the wing and show an astounding turn of pace, rather than from his qualities as a flanker.

I'd have Robshaw at 6 and get any one of the young specialist 7s in an England shirt ASAP.

Second row, Croft/Lawes or Robson/Lawes?

For me the breakdown is where England have failed consistently for some time, our best back row bar none was the Holy Trinity, so why not look for players from the same mold?

Hill, back & Dallaglio would nullify opposition back rows for 80 minutes, they were at every ruck, contested every loose ball and came off every scrum with total intent.

6. You pick your best tackling and rucking platform with carrying ability.
7. Your best fetcher with good hands, good lines off set pieces and an ability to break the gainline, has to be at every ruck - if not in it then at the fringes looking for loose ball or quick ball through the 10 channel.
8. Front-foot ball fulcrum, able to give you something to work on from nothing, dynamic carrier who can ruck and maul like a dervish.

So, who will it be? They're not the finished articles yet, but they don't need to be for four years, they need the basis of all of the above and some time with the right coaches and some exposure to Test rugby, time to think afresh.

PJ,

I think the problem is we have tried to play a more expansive game, but with the wrong personnel....

This WC proved that real 7's are still essential, and we have a pretty empty cupboard. Ive suggested bringing Artmiage in....but this wont happen as MJ doesnt seem to rate him, despite barely giving him a chance.

There seems to be confusion at the rucks also. Are we keeping numbers to the fewest possible...for quick ball? Well hey quess what it isnt working. Opposition teams have worked out...lets just overload it and we'll turn it over...or slow it right down...thus back to slow ball for the backs.

Conclusion:
I do think we have the players...i just think the coaches are not the right ones....as everyman and their dog has mentioned on here. Needs to be rectified...but with the trouble in the board..when this will happen...well who knows....

6. You pick your best tackling and rucking platform with carrying ability.
7. Your best fetcher with good hands, good lines off set pieces and an ability to break the gainline, has to be at every ruck - if not in it then at the fringes looking for loose ball or quick ball through the 10 channel.
8. Front-foot ball fulcrum, able to give you something to work on from nothing, dynamic carrier who can ruck and maul like a dervish.

^ This. Absoloutely spot on, however the folks that know better than us, (i.e. the current coaching set up), seem intent on picking 3 guys who are strong at the tackle and can carr, three 6 (ish) types. We also seem to have this 6 and a bit player being added more and more to the second row with Lawes and to stick Croft there as well would be madness. Mind you, I reckon if we get Edwards in the current england side would make one hell of a league team!!!

from a welshman:

1. Corbiserio
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Lawes
5. Attwood
6. Croft/Wood
7. Armitage
8. Waldrom (controversial)
9. Youngs
10. Flood
11. Sharples
12. Allen
13. Tuliagi
14. Ashton
15. Foden

I'll briefly explain some.....

the 8/9/10/12 axis from Leicester, its a very good axis, they have a great understanding. Youngs on form is excellant, Flood forms a very good partnership with him and Allen and Allen will do everything Hape did for you guys but better, you need a 12 who can bosh to get through phases and suck in defenders, but you dont want that to be their only skill.

backrow: well, Croft and Wood are excellant (and I couldnt decide what I wanted), Armitage is a real bundle of power as a 7 and great on the floor, Waldrom, hmm, Easter was lame and Haskell's off for the sushi, who's better as an 8 in England currently? His understanding with the 9/10 would be crucial.

England have the core of a very good team, theres always players like Robshaw/Crane/Stevens/D.Armitage/Barritt/Deacon/Monye(as a winger!!) and a whole host of other names who could be nurtured in and do well at international level (if they havent already started). Thats not even bringing up the youth coming through with potential.

As someone else alluded to, too much choice perhaps!

So its kinda like this:

Steps to move England forward:

1) The RFU need to get their house in order
2) Decide on MJ's Position - new contract or new manager
3) New Coaches needed who can bring the best out of the players
4) Sort out the back row
5) Sort out No.12
6) Grand Slam 6n 2014
7) Grand Slam 6n 2015
8) Win the WC 2015...

Seemples, Geordie!!

GeordieFalcon wrote:So its kinda like this:

Steps to move England forward:

1) The RFU need to get their house in order
2) Decide on MJ's Position - new contract or new manager
3) New Coaches needed who can bring the best out of the players
4) Sort out the back row
5) Sort out No.12
6) Grand Slam 6n 2014
7) Grand Slam 6n 2015
8) Win the WC 2015...

Great plan, except......


do the RFU know where their house is?

"Great plan, except......


do the RFU know where their house is?."

Well thats the question isnt it.....

Well its November....

There are definate movements in the RFU...but not sorted yet.

Still no movement on MJ's position or his coaches....

What about the actual team....who would make your starting team for the 6n?

A few players off form...but still plenty of time to refresh and rediscover it...

I'd have thought a fairly forward thinking 32 man squad for the 6N would be something like;

1.Corbisiero/Sheridan (if fit, if not then Mullan)
2.Hartley/Thompson/Gray
3.Cole/PDJ
4.Lawes/Attwood
5.Parling/Robson
6.Croft/Wood
7.Robshaw (it's where he plays for Quins)/ Seymour
8.Easter (c) (short term)/Fearns
9.Youngs/Care/Simpson
10.Flood/Hodgson
11.Short
12.Barritt/Twelvetrees
13.Manu/Trinder
14.Ashton/Strettle
15.Ashton/Goode

Drop Delon until he can behave himself. Maintain some degree of experience in the team whilst younger players can stay with their clubs until they are ready to step up (e.g. Farrell, Burns, Wallace, Marler etc).

I think you mean Foden rather than Ashton at 15, but otherwise I think that's a pretty good side.

I'd have Sharples ahead of Short though. Different style of winger obviously but for a relatively lightweight player Sharples seems to have guts as well as bags of pace. The other wingers I really rate are Ojo (a bit of a forgotten man by England) and Biggs. Biggs rarely seems to have a bad game, and yet rarely seems to be mentioned as an option on here. Very strong options on the wing for England.

I saw that Redpath put Tindall in ahead of Trinder at the weekend. Not a good move. I agree that Trinder is a good option at 13 for England, and will face tough competition when Joseph and Tuilagi return.

I do mean Foden you're quite right. Short I'd go with as he has the pace, step etc but he also has power in defence and with ball in hand. He stays on his feet and forces the tackler to wrestle him to the floor which gains yards and means his support is with him quickly. He's a safe pair of hands and he reads the game well. If he had a kicking game he'd be the most well rounded winger we've got, unfortunatley he hasn't but the combination of him, Foden and Ashton would be a good one.

Not a big fan of Biggs he offers a steady wing solution but never really shines and at club level if you can't shine then at international level where time on the ball is less and the defences are more imposing then you will struggle. I think Trinder is a good option in that England squad I picked as there is a couple of big options in the 12 channel and his pace and running lines outside would be a good weapon. Manu offers similar attacking lines and pace but also the crash option hence he is the first choice. I like Joseph but the Saxons should be his next port of call.

robshaw4england wrote:With Moody and Shaw announcing there international retirements and Tindall and Easter soon to follow in aid of the development of English Rugby. This would be my next England Squad moving forward.

15 B.Foden & M.Brown

14. C.Ashton & C.Sharples

13 M.Tuilagi & D.Waldouck

12 B.Barritt & A.Allen

11 M.Banahan & M.Benjamin

10 D.Cipriani & T.Flood & O.Farrell

09 D.Care & B.Youngs

08 L.Narraway & J.Haskell

07 C.Robshaw & C.Fearns

06 T.Croft & T.Wood

05 D.Attwood & T.Palmer

04. C.Lawes & L.Deacon

03. D.Cole & M.Stevens

02. D.Hartley & R.Webber & D.Paice

01. A.Corbisiero & J.Marler

15. With Armitage becoming more of a liability, can't disagree there.
14. Yep.
13. With Waldouck's injuries and inconsistency, the likes of Trinder and Lowe would be rightfully above him in the pecking order.
12. Best of a bad bunch, but I'd like to see Tuilagi moving in to 12.
11. Really? There are so many better options out there. Strettle for one, and I've been very impressed with May at Gloucester. Irish have some decent young wingers as well, who I hope get a bit more game time.
10. Was wondering how long it would be until someone mentioned Cipriani!! Not a chance in hell. After Flood, the Saxons/age grade options would appear to be Clegg, Ford. But Burns is beginning to impress, and has Ryan Lamb's form finally been deserving of a shout?
9. Yep
8. Haskell unavailable, would have Narraway and Fearns as my choices. But unfortunately Easter will still be in the mix.
7. You've got 2 guys who aren't 7s. Worst possible options. Fearns is earmarked for 8, and Robshaw is a 6.
6. Think Robshaw is actually a better option than Wood or Croft, neither of whom carry the ball hard enough.
5. Palmer unavailable. Would like to see Robson there after a couple of good seasons with Quins.
4. If I see Deacon anywhere near England again, I swear I'll kill someone. He came in to the squad for 2 reasons, to call the lineout and add weight to the scrums and rucks, neither of which he managed.
3. Stevens' scrummaging was awful at the WC, he seems to have lost some impetus with the right hand shoulder, was consistently turned in. He's also too fat, needs to do some serious work on conditioning.
2. Webber and Paice are nowhere near England. Much better options all over the Premiership.
1. Like your options, but neither will strike fear in opposition's minds like Sheridan would. Maybe time will tell.

One area where I think the current England set up is lacking and stopping them from moving forward is centre.

I like Flood but if you put him there it raises the question as to who will play 12.

Your most constructive player of late was Flutey but seems to have fallen out of favour.

I like Tuilagi a lot but will it become a bit of fixation like we had with Roberts after the Lions tour.

Tindall must surely now be put out to pasture, Hape or Banahan haven't worked there either.

I might be looking to start:

1 Corbs
2 Hartley
3 Cole
4 Lawes
5 Attwood
6 Robshaw
7 Wood
8 Easter

9 Youngs
10 Flood
11 Sharples
12 Barritt
13 Tuilagi
14 Ashton
15 Foden

I like Flood but if you put him there it raises the question as to who will play 12.

Barritt is the current favourite, he's a bit of a unit but played 10 when he used to play in SA and so has good footballing skills and soft hands as well as offering the crash ball option. He also leads the Sarries defence which would be handy as Manu is still inexperienced and ideally your FH wants the line outside of him to be organised so he can concentrate with what's in front of him rather than having to constantly look behind him.

Geordie,

That looks a pretty strong side, not know what form a lot of them are in but it looks good.

One name that stands out to me is Easter, like Tindall surely England must now look beyond him and plan for the future. Even if that meant taking a punt on a youngster much like we did with Faletau.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

I like Flood but if you put him there it raises the question as to who will play 12.

Barritt is the current favourite, he's a bit of a unit but played 10 when he used to play in SA and so has good footballing skills and soft hands as well as offering the crash ball option. He also leads the Sarries defence which would be handy as Manu is still inexperienced and ideally your FH wants the line outside of him to be organised so he can concentrate with what's in front of him rather than having to constantly look behind him.

That should of read who would you put at 10 if Flood plays centre.

Flood won't play centre. He will play 10 for Tigers (to the extent they are putting wingers at centre rather than Flood) and should do the same for England. As seen at the RWC it's a waste of his talents to plonk him at IC, he isn't big enough to smash the ball up and by putting him at 12 you ruin his ability to stand flat and distribute.

Fair one Sam, Flood strikes me very much as a confidence player so hopefully from and England POV they will finally decide on who is the best No10 (not hard I think now).

Bedford,

There are a few not in form...Wood for example is not starting for Saints at the moment - Clark is i believe...but Wood is class and will regain his form...

Re Easter i totally agree...but as with the other thread ...im not sure who else is available at the mo. If guest returns fit and on form...then he is a possiblilty and if Fearns wins the 8 shirt at Bath then he is another....but would you have someone playing 8 for England who is not playing there for their club?

Geordie,

Of course I would and I hope you carry on picking Easter lol but see what you mean.

That said, over the years we have made habit of picking players out of position, even as recent as the WC Hook at XV James at T/Head etc.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Bedford,

There are a few not in form...Wood for example is not starting for Saints at the moment - Clark is i believe...but Wood is class and will regain his form...

Re Easter i totally agree...but as with the other thread ...im not sure who else is available at the mo. If guest returns fit and on form...then he is a possiblilty and if Fearns wins the 8 shirt at Bath then he is another....but would you have someone playing 8 for England who is not playing there for their club?

Fearns is a bit dicky at the moment. Back row is being rotated at Bath, where all of a sudden we appear to have an embarassment of riches, including previous duds playing to tope form - Skirving, Taylor, Louw, Mercer, Moody, Fearns, and the old dogs still there like Beattie. Personally, I think the best backrow there should be 6 Louw, 7 Mercer, 8 Fearns. But that's just me.

Flood strikes me very much as a confidence player

Certainly is. He also looks far more assured when paired with players he knows. He needs to be man managed and offered direction by the off field staff as he doesn't always back his own kicking from hand (which is odd because it's good). His on field leadership has really improved in the last couple of season as well and he is more vocal now.