Did Rougerie gouge McCaw?

First topic message reminder :

Can't recall seeing anything myself although McCaw was acting a little strange near the end of the game. Anything in it?


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10761510

Edit - KRD. Note that while the article imples Dusatoir gouged, evidence posted down-thread suggests that if anyone gouged it was Rougerie so I've amended the title of the thread

Looks like things have progressed since I was last on and the implied version of Dusautoir was actually Rougerie.....unless there was another incident!?!?

Here's the clip anyway so you can make up your own mind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hneJ8Ws8Yuc

leinsterbaby wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote:Dusatoir thanked Richie McCaw in his player of the year award. Quality individual. Watched a replay of the match the guy was incredible, no lying on the ball, no coming in from side or hands in the ruck just pure clean brilliance. He doesn't need to cheat and he still out muscled RM.

Wrong team won.

Leinster, on Re-Union, the panel admitted that France was the best team on the park that day, and they admitted they were relieved to win that match. now from where I am sitting these guys are usually as biased as they come, and for them to admit France were the better team on the pitch is a big step. Perhaps having won the trophy aided in their magnanymous approach, but by just admitting to the fact is big.

How many matches have you seen where the better team lost during this world cup.

Here are a few.

Scotland vs England.
Wales vs SA
SA vs Bruce, er I mean Australia.

It happens all the time mate.

True but I feel France were robbed the most. Then to be fined for something NZ should be fined for too was a further slap to the face.

Leinster either you or me is very one eyed and biased here, I do not see how you believe France was the most robbed.
I will leave it for the posters to decide

DOD wrote:In relation to Rougeries intent...here is a view from another IRish rugby player (ex) who is usually middle of the road

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/1028/1224306621292.html

Just to note a small section from this
"Although I support zero tolerance with any form of facial interference there is no way Rougerie intended it as he was unsighted as to McCaw’s body position and removed immediately"

Well there are two clear incidents outlined in this account...seems clear to everyone else...

offload wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:I fail to also understand why some people think that the ABs should have laid a complaint with the citing commissioner, they never have, its not the New Zealand way, however there have been plenty of instances where ABs have been cited post match, without the requirement of a red card or a complaint.

Thats a really good point Aukland. There are differing opinions on the "code" players have with regard to citings. Many in rugby feel that such things should be dealt with behind closed doors and without escalting the Holly Wilaboobie for tat war off the field.
Mccaw has spoken on this now. Hes been very honourable in what hes said. There was a hand in his eyes, but he couldnt tell how it happened or if it was dleiberate. That backs up what you can see on the video,.. Theres no question Rougeries hands went across his face inclduing the eyes. Theres no way Mccaw could tell who was doing it and how it happened.
It does look deliberate to me, but we can never really know.

It's not up to RM to determine intent or who did it. It is up to every responsible player and team to report foul play and help eradicate it. It's a poor excuse to say that it's not the "NZ way". Who gave NZ the right to abdicate the responsibility? It's clear to everyone that Rougerie should be investigated and NZ should have reported the incident so that it could be dealt with.

Just want to add my support for offload's position on all this. The idea that players or offended teams should be responsible for reporting such serious incidents is just bizarrely childish and ineffectual. It's like that stupid schoolyard policy where the teacher makes a bullied kid stand up in front of all the other kids and "rat out" his classmates - doubly victimising the victim.

Joubert was told by McCaw straight after the incident that something had happened. That should be enough to allow the referee to go back to the video evidence afterwards and then he should take the responsibility for enforcing the laws... not the offended party!

And for the record, I thought Rougerie's rake and contact with the eye was inexcusable and actually quite gruesome. For me fobbing it off just reveals the fact that certain people are fighting old battles here rather than the evidence before their eyes.

Liam Toland thinks it was unintentional and if you look at it in realtime it was. I am sure if you watch it in HD slow mo at a frame every five seconds it looks bad as did Burgers as did Quinlan, Jennings etc. All of them look bad its and it is clear he should have been cited...but the intent is the issue and I dont see it. Look at it in real time before you start pontificating..

Toland is probably Irelands best rugby journalists. Was was also a 7 for Leinster and Munster(I think) so he knows what he is talking about.

How does McCaw get away with coming in from the side time and time again? It is one of the big mysteries in rugby. It is one of the few things I hate about rugby. Even playing field please.

Middle of the road. Sounds like a country singer.

Those two sentences are contradictory. Any form of facial interference does not imply whether it was intentional or not. Whether Mealamu or Umaga intended it or not is also irrelevant. I agree with Disney and think they both should´ve been cited for the result of what happened to BOD and then pleaded their case in the hearing based on what happened. But they´re not the only players to escape foul play and this match had some other incidents like the knee or the stamping in the ruck that weren´t cited either.

Yet somehow I get this middle of the road opinion has a way of tracing its way back to the BOD incident.

And I disagree Ozzy. There are a few posters on here who would´ve called Richie McCaw a graceless whinger. Their hate runs that deep.

biltongbek wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote:Dusatoir thanked Richie McCaw in his player of the year award. Quality individual. Watched a replay of the match the guy was incredible, no lying on the ball, no coming in from side or hands in the ruck just pure clean brilliance. He doesn't need to cheat and he still out muscled RM.

Wrong team won.

Leinster, on Re-Union, the panel admitted that France was the best team on the park that day, and they admitted they were relieved to win that match. now from where I am sitting these guys are usually as biased as they come, and for them to admit France were the better team on the pitch is a big step. Perhaps having won the trophy aided in their magnanymous approach, but by just admitting to the fact is big.

How many matches have you seen where the better team lost during this world cup.

Here are a few.

Scotland vs England.
Wales vs SA
SA vs Bruce, er I mean Australia.

It happens all the time mate.

True but I feel France were robbed the most. Then to be fined for something NZ should be fined for too was a further slap to the face.

Leinster either you or me is very one eyed and biased here, I do not see how you believe France was the most robbed.
I will leave it for the posters to decide

In fairness to you I mentioned before that I didn't see the SA OZ game but saw all the others.

Kia this is not about the great and good McCaw this is about the question as to whether Rougerie had eye contact with an AB player. Everyone agrees he did.

The question is now about intent...so some people think he did it intentionally, some people think he didnt.

If you look at the video in slow motion or each frame it looks damning
You look at the full sequence in realtime its over in less than a second. To me and a lot of others apparently Rougeries is looking to clear out McCaw is in his usual awkward position with his head out the side. For sure Rougerie looks to cause pain (who clearing a ruck doesnt) and grabs at McCaw to clear him, this catches him in the face loses grip, grabs him again and pulls him away.

Mealamu and Umaga is brought up as an example of issue of intent. Clearly to AB supporters there was no intent there (although picking, turning and driving into the ground all seem a little intentional)

Burgers leaving his hand in Fitzgeralds eye for some time (reaching over his head) looks intentional no? There is even more than a hint of it a year later against Pocock (apparently he had a long time to clean up his act for Bilton).

Rougerie would have got a low end ban like Quinlan.

Yep no arguments there DOD with what you say. It´s other posts that have nothing to do with the OP that I object to.

This post was did he gouge McCaw? You can´t say gouge in terms of the Burger incident. I agree a low ban for reckless behaviour. But it´s all a moot point as it will never be before a judiciary. The publicity is a warning though to players that these things don´t go unnoticed.

Let's hope that is at least the case, kia. Would the FFR be able to take unilateral action on this one?

DOD wrote:
Burgers leaving his hand in Fitzgeralds eye for some time (reaching over his head) looks intentional no? There is even more than a hint of it a year later against Pocock (apparently he had a long time to clean up his act for Bilton).

Rougerie would have got a low end ban like Quinlan.

Can you show contradictory evidence that Burger has not cleaned up his act?

I'd say he has. Plus he is quite articulate in interviews which was a surprise. I always imagined he would be a real meat head. Bakkies though. Ha.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Let's hope that is at least the case, kia. Would the FFR be able to take unilateral action on this one?

Of course they could, but that would assume they had a problem with gouging and were at all concerned with stamping it out.

Given its a relativly low end offence anyway I doubt theres that much fuss beyond the inetrnet. Had it not been the toilet final then it most likely would never have been reproted at all.

Toilet final. Very clever. Im sure the French do have a problem with gouging but firstly Rougerie didn't dig his finger in McCaws eye. That's gouging. He pulled at McCaws face around the eye area which is definitely not as bad. Secondly France have been badly treated by the IRB; one sided refereeing and a farcical fine which the ABs conveniently escaped. Why should they care about what Rougerie may or may not have intentionally done?

Biltongbek, Burger looks like a very decent bloke when he is off the field, always nice in interviews but he gave Pocock some pretty awful attention to his face in the World Cup Quarter Final. Nothing came out of it but as you can see here his hands were all over Pocock's face.

I tried to get the bit of just the World Cup but couldn't get it to paste in here so had to include the whole link. It has the bit about the incident in 2010 also. Look at the bottom bit at the following link. It doesn't look too good.

http://www.borntoruck.com/2011/10/face-raker-schalk-burger-has-learned.html

Bujin wrote:Biltongbek, Burger looks like a very decent bloke when he is off the field, always nice in interviews but he gave Pocock some pretty awful attention to his face in the World Cup Quarter Final. Nothing came out of it but as you can see here his hands were all over Pocock's face.

I tried to get the bit of just the World Cup but couldn't get it to paste in here so had to include the whole link. It has the bit about the incident in 2010 also. Look at the bottom bit at the following link. It doesn't look too good.

http://www.borntoruck.com/2011/10/face-raker-schalk-burger-has-learned.html

Both those clips might look bad cause there is face contact but I really don't think Burger is guilty of gouging there. Is rugby in danger of going down the football route whenever there is any face contact the "victim" goes down like he has just been riddled with bullets like Brossow? I really hope not because that stuff makes me sick.

Mac Caw injured intentionnaly Para,
NZ _ and earth _ want to ignore,
since they fear a little bit the situation,
they insist on Rougerie.

notice:
Para was severely injured,
eventually wasn't the ABBB.

I reckon McCaw did take a pop at Parra alright. Even though it happened quickly McCaw didn't pull out at all even when he hit parra with his fist he still followed through with the knee.

In some ways though strangely he did France a favour as Trinh Duc is a much better OH and made a big difference once on the field.

This is all a smokescreen to divert people from the fact that France were robbed, we know it and whats worse even the AB fans know it, and all this BS is for AB fans to feel a sense of victimhood, nothing more and certainly nothing less!!


If Mcaw was gouged then its bad, but don't use it (if it occurred) to condemn an entire team/ nation who would have beaten you fair and square had their been a level playing field!

leinsterbaby wrote:...

In some ways though strangely he did France a favour as Trinh Duc is a much better OH and made a big difference once on the field.

Which is a factor in suggesting it was accidental, McCaw's smarter than that

Can't be sure McCaw even knows who Trinh Duc even is. Just kidding though I do find that Kiwi and Aussie pundits/fans are often very clueless when it comes to NH players. Though to their credit radio sport Aucklands coverage of the WC was very very good I must say.

leinsterbaby wrote:Can't be sure McCaw even knows who Trinh Duc even is. Just kidding though I do find that Kiwi and Aussie pundits/fans are often very clueless when it comes to NH players. Though to their credit radio sport Aucklands coverage of the WC was very very good I must say.

Bit harsh Leinster, a few pundits are not representative of 4 million people! In a country that has shown that itself to live and breath rugby like no other, the knowledge base of the average person is going to be higher than most, if not all, other countries wouldn't you say...or am I talking out of my arse? I dont think so...

In fairness, most NZers' knowledge of NH club players is probably on a par with NH fans knowledge of the NPC. International players are another matter entirely

I find that Kiwi rugby knowledge is very super 15/ Tri nations centric and Aussies probably even more so. That doesn't mean everyone is like that but for example I was listening to a WC preview pod cast on stuff.co.NZ and they were confusing Welsh players with Irish players. Also there is a Sanzar fan podcast where all contributors could barely name most NH players. I'm not painting everyone with the same brush but the printed media especially often seem really clueless. Radio sport Auckland like I said were exceptionally good.

The Kiwis arent too bad but probably struggle with IReland not being part of Britain (might be because the last bit of news they took any notice of was pre 1920).

Aussies havent a clue at all.

I find all rugby media of the printed variety pretty much garbage whichever country it originates from. Do any other kiwis remember the Evening Post sports editor Angus Morrison from about 10-15 years ago? His opinions were so outrageous they would turn Rattue and Jones a shade of pink. Really funny though…especially the way he used to rip into the Hurricanes

Keith Quinn, regardless of what he did this week, was a fine rugby caller for me.

chewed_mintie wrote:
Bit harsh Leinster, a few pundits are not representative of 4 million people! In a country that has shown that itself to live and breath rugby like no other, the knowledge base of the average person is going to be higher than most, if not all, other countries wouldn't you say...or am I talking out of my arse? I dont think so...

bingo ,
here is the point, this is the explanation,
you really live and breath rugby like no other, I feel it and agree with you,
this made you fall , this made you loose common sense,
and prevented your team and all your nation from any very beginning of honesty , fairness and even hospitality during this RWC,
eventually it made you cruel.

better when you don't organise the RWC ,
when you don't feel compell on your life to win ,
when you are only and simply the best world team.

SittingBull wrote:

chewed_mintie wrote:
Bit harsh Leinster, a few pundits are not representative of 4 million people! In a country that has shown that itself to live and breath rugby like no other, the knowledge base of the average person is going to be higher than most, if not all, other countries wouldn't you say...or am I talking out of my arse? I dont think so...

and prevented your team and all your nation from any very beginning of honesty , fairness and even hospitality during this WC,
eventually it made you cruel.

This follow I don't, Sitting Bull

Maybe try talking in french then mintie and see how well you do yoda. At least he is tying. I presume he's French anyway. Could be from Munster I suppose.

leinsterbaby wrote:Maybe try talking in french then mintie and see how well you do yoda. At least he is tying. I presume he's French anyway. Could be from Munster I suppose.

Christ Leinster! Don't be so touchy! I took it from the name Sitting Bull that he might be talking the way Am Indians are shown in films! Crikey! It is Friday after all!

Maybe you are right. Have a nice weekend! Long weekend in Ireland, oh yeah!

leinsterbaby wrote:Maybe you are right. Have a nice weekend! Long weekend in Ireland, oh yeah!

Lucky so and so

leinsterbaby wrote:Maybe try talking in french then mintie and see how well you do yoda. At least he is tying. I presume he's French anyway. Could be from Munster I suppose.

Nah LB given tbe comprehension and spelling he is clearly a privately educated young man from the d4 area.

chewed_mintie wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote:Can't be sure McCaw even knows who Trinh Duc even is. Just kidding though I do find that Kiwi and Aussie pundits/fans are often very clueless when it comes to NH players. Though to their credit radio sport Aucklands coverage of the WC was very very good I must say.

Bit harsh Leinster, a few pundits are not representative of 4 million people! In a country that has shown that itself to live and breath rugby like no other, the knowledge base of the average person is going to be higher than most, if not all, other countries wouldn't you say...or am I talking out of my arse? I dont think so...

Feck, New Zealand is the font of all Rugby knowledge! Fair enough, knowledge is easily learnt, but based on that logic the only true understanding of what the game is all about must surely reside with the nation that thunked it up in the first place.

A game is a game.

You're welcome.

Its true pj. England thunked up many games. Unfortunately the sold many off to bigger corporates.
By the way. What did you do with the ghost.
Is he inside?
We could get the nz embassy onto it you know.

Taylorman wrote:Its true pj. England thunked up many games. Unfortunately the sold many off to bigger corporates.
By the way. What did you do with the ghost.
Is he inside?
We could get the nz embassy onto it you know.

I love games, they're very big up here, but generally just for the fun of it - that's why we're not brilliant at any of them.

You must have some idea of my mindset by now T'man, I have an enormous respect for anyone who rises to the top of their chosen sport whatever it may be, the dedication, application and sacrifices that must be made are admirable if for no other reason than for excellence amongst their peers.

But it's still a game, and the game will always be bigger and more important than any of the heroes that play it.

I'm still glad your boys got the monkey off their backs though.

I swear on my life I miss TGG, I know he isn't everyone's cup of tea, but he is a very challenging, opinionated and driven poster that brings a bit of life to a debate. He's been banned for repeatedly breaking house rules apparently, but I think too many people took him too seriously and attacked him in such a way that he had no choice but to respond in kind. 10 people get 1 warning each and TGG gets 10 to himself, you don't have to be a genius to figure out that one..

Call the embassy T'man, I reckon he was banned because he was grey - if there ain't any racist overtones there, there bloody well should be.

T'man, am I right in saying there could be a footrot flats sequel? This may explain te absence of TGG....