The Jeff and the English cause

by Portnoy Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:27 am

First topic message reminder :

Current Jeff position / Club / RWC English players
1 Harlequins 1 (Easter)
2 Saracens 2 (Stevens, Wigglesworth)
3 Sale 2 (Sheridan, Cueto)
4 London Irish 3 (Corbisiero, Armitage, Hape)
5 Exeter 0
6 Gloucester 1 (Tindall)
7 Bath 4 (Wilson, Mears, Moody, Banahan)
8 Wasps 2 (Simpson, Thompson)
9 Northampton 5 (Foden, Ashton, Lawes, Hartley, Wood)
10 Worcester 0
11 Leicester 6 + 1 (Youngs, Cole, Deacon, Tuilagi, Croft, Flood plus Waldrom)
12 Newcastle 0

And mix into that game minutes played and you may possibly construe a rationale for the Jeff to be suspended during International weeks.

Or maybe it's a good idea to import foreign 'nearly' talent (e.g. Waldrom) to ride any storm.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/gallery/2011/aug/22/rugbyworldcup2011-rugby-union#/?picture=378165082&index=29

by Portnoy Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:16 pm

I know As. I wonder what led me to include "(and probably fatuous)" in my comment?

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:18 pm

Portnoy wrote:
screamingaddabs wrote:
Portnoy wrote:
greybeard wrote:I don't work in the country of my birth, anyone who called me a mercenary would get a talking to. A serious talking to.

Such dismissive rhetoric isn't very helpful.

I suspect you are therefore doing voluntary service overseaS?
Otherwise why make the dispassionate decision to leave your own country? Clearly for financial (mercinary) gain...

Don't talk rubbish Portnoy. Some people can't work at the job they are good at in their country due to lack of availability (e.g. Samoan rugby players). Some people choose to leave the country of their birth for family reasons such as their parents emigrating (e.g. some of the Tuilagis), others simply want a change of scenery and work in a foreign country for a short while. They are not "mercenaries"

(A Mercenary, also known as a professional soldier, soldier of fortune, swashbuckler, private military contractor, or freelancer, is a person who takes part in an armed conflict who is not a national or a party to the conflict and is "motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces of that Party". A non-conscript professional member of a regular army is not considered to be a mercenary although he gets monetary reward from his service.) Thanks wiki.

To suggest so is distasteful.

Balls screamingmer·ce·nar·y (mûrs-nr)
adj.
1. Motivated solely by a desire for monetary or material gain.
2. Hired for service in a foreign army.
n. pl. mer·ce·nar·ies
1. One who serves or works merely for monetary gain; a hireling.
2. A professional soldier hired for service in a foreign army.

Thanks google.

I'll prefer to take the primary definition thanks.

To deliberately misconstrue another's words is both disingenuous and distasteful.

Hmm, so that covers most people in employment? And the 'foreign' part seems to be linked only to its military context?

by greybeard Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:19 pm

Portnoy wrote:
greybeard wrote:I don't work in the country of my birth, anyone who called me a mercenary would get a talking to. A serious talking to.

Such dismissive rhetoric isn't very helpful.

I suspect you are therefore doing voluntary service overseaS?
Otherwise why make the dispassionate decision to leave your own country? Clearly for financial (mercinary) gain...

What makes you think my decision was dispassionate? I don't need to justify the choices I've made in my life to you.

It is also entirely possible to be a mercenary in your own country.

by **LondonTiger** Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:24 pm

I worked abroad for a while to gain experience that simply was not available in UK. It made be better at my job. (In fact I was born in Germany as my father was in the forces - but consider myself English)

My brother lives and works in France - moving there because he fell in love with a french girl.

There are many "non-mercenary" reasons to be employed in a country other than that of your birth.

by screamingaddabs Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:26 pm

I was objecting to greybeard being referred to as a mercenary, which he said he would prefer not to be called. Saying that all foreign workers only moved for the money is a sweeping generalisation and one that it would seem greybeard (and myself) would object to. I didn't move to Scotland for the money. In fact I took a pay cut. Mercenary has negative connotations and is inaccurate.

But anyway, the whole rugby problem stems from too many games. No matter how you juggle the current calendar people are going to complain. Cutting games cuts revenue and so won't happen until something big changes things, at which point it'll go haywire!

by greybeard Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:27 pm

Was it for the weather? Wink

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:27 pm

by Portnoy Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:32 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Hmm, so that covers most people in employment? And the 'foreign' part seems to be linked only to its military context?

True. It is a chronic problem in professional sport. Indeed in this sense, it implies a 'foreign' context. I concede that. But that is the common usage of the term in the world of sport (no?).

by screamingaddabs Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:39 pm

greybeard wrote:Was it for the weather?

Nah, it was for the healthy food, the crime rates and the love the locals have for the English... censored

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:43 pm

Portnoy wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Hmm, so that covers most people in employment? And the 'foreign' part seems to be linked only to its military context?

True. It is a chronic problem in professional sport. Indeed in this sense, it implies a 'foreign' context. I concede that. But that is the common usage of the term in the world of sport (no?).

I would say common usage at international level, but not below? Anyhew, we digress...

by radelven Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:50 pm

I've adjusted the original list to account for all internationals that were at the WC based on this older post

1 Harlequins 3 (Easter, Vallejos, Fa'asuvala)
2 Saracens 8 (Stevens, Wigglesworth, Burger, Wyles, Smith, Brown, Smit, Tagicakibau)
3 Sale 10 (Sheridan, Cueto, Vernon, Dickinson, Powell, Lewaravu, Buckley, Ostrikov, Lavea, Leota)
4 London Irish 8 (Corbisiero, Armitage, Hape, Tagicakibau, Ansbro, Lalanne, Ion, Sinclair)
5 Exeter 2 (Mitchell, Camacho)
6 Gloucester 7 (Tindall, Strokosch, Hamilton, S.Lawson, R.Lawson, Qera, EFS)
7 Bath 7 (Wilson, Mears, Moody, Banahan, Louw, Perenise, Donald)
8 Wasps 4 (Simpson, Thompson, Shaw, Taulafo)
9 Northampton 8 (Foden, Ashton, Lawes, Hartley, Wood, Tongauiha, Armitiev, Pisi)
10 Worcester 2 (Fatiaki, Lutui)
11 Leicester 12 (Youngs, Cole, Deacon, Tuilagi, Croft, Flood, Waldrom, Castrogiovanni, Ayerza, Agulla, Murphy, Tuilagi)
12 Newcastle 2 (Murray, Tuifua)

by Portnoy Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:14 pm

radelven wrote:I've adjusted the original list to account for all internationals that were at the WC based on this older post

1 Harlequins 3 (Easter, Vallejos, Fa'asuvala)
2 Saracens 8 (Stevens, Wigglesworth, Burger, Wyles, Smith, Brown, Smit, Tagicakibau)
3 Sale 10 (Sheridan, Cueto, Vernon, Dickinson, Powell, Lewaravu, Buckley, Ostrikov, Lavea, Leota)
4 London Irish 8 (Corbisiero, Armitage, Hape, Tagicakibau, Ansbro, Lalanne, Ion, Sinclair)
5 Exeter 2 (Mitchell, Camacho)
6 Gloucester 7 (Tindall, Strokosch, Hamilton, S.Lawson, R.Lawson, Qera, EFS)
7 Bath 7 (Wilson, Mears, Moody, Banahan, Louw, Perenise, Donald)
8 Wasps 4 (Simpson, Thompson, Shaw, Taulafo)
9 Northampton 8 (Foden, Ashton, Lawes, Hartley, Wood, Tongauiha, Armitiev, Pisi)
10 Worcester 2 (Fatiaki, Lutui)
11 Leicester 12 (Youngs, Cole, Deacon, Tuilagi, Croft, Flood, Waldrom, Castrogiovanni, Ayerza, Agulla, Murphy, Tuilagi)
12 Newcastle 2 (Murray, Tuifua)

Which of course neatly sidesteps the OP issue. Which was supposed to emphasise the correlation between Jeff clubs and their contribution to the English cause.

Your (irrelevant to the OP) post might be made even more interesting if you emboldened the English players, italicised NH International players (who would normally be unavailable in S/A Internationals and 6Ns) and CAPITALISED SH players who would not normally affect Jeff club performances by dint of not being absent.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:15 pm

radelven wrote:I've adjusted the original list to account for all internationals that were at the WC based on this older post

1 Harlequins 3 (Easter, Vallejos, Fa'asuvala)
2 Saracens 8 (Stevens, Wigglesworth, Burger, Wyles, Smith, Brown, Smit, Tagicakibau)
3 Sale 10 (Sheridan, Cueto, Vernon, Dickinson, Powell, Lewaravu, Buckley, Ostrikov, Lavea, Leota)
4 London Irish 8 (Corbisiero, Armitage, Hape, Tagicakibau, Ansbro, Lalanne, Ion, Sinclair)
5 Exeter 3 (Mitchell, Camacho, Polu) + 1 (Budgen - Forces World Cup)
6 Gloucester 7 (Tindall, Strokosch, Hamilton, S.Lawson, R.Lawson, Qera, EFS)
7 Bath 7 (Wilson, Mears, Moody, Banahan, Louw, Perenise, Donald)
8 Wasps 4 (Simpson, Thompson, Shaw, Taulafo)
9 Northampton 8 (Foden, Ashton, Lawes, Hartley, Wood, Tongauiha, Armitiev, Pisi)
10 Worcester 2 (Fatiaki, Lutui)
11 Leicester 12 (Youngs, Cole, Deacon, Tuilagi, Croft, Flood, Waldrom, Castrogiovanni, Ayerza, Agulla, Murphy, Tuilagi)
12 Newcastle 2 (Murray, Tuifua)

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:17 pm

Hmmm, so 39 absentees for the top 6 and 35 for the bottom six? Headscratch

by Portnoy Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:25 pm

Incidentally Shaw is strictly unattached as he hadn't signed for Wasps until after the English RWC squad was selected.

Glaws EFS? Who he? Certainly not JPR or BOD- as players that could be generally identified by their initials.

by beshocked Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:29 pm

Welshmushroom you obviously missed out Saracens.

Portnoy I find your narrow minded broken record ramblings highly insulting(yes I know I can be equally guilty).

Do you not think it's good to give players from all nationalities opportunities in a top league like the AP? The foreign players at my club are really friendly. I feel heartened to see Saracens helping countries other than England. Obviously as we hopefully flourish our contribution of English quality will grow.

by Portnoy Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:30 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Hmmm, so 39 absentees for the top 6 and 35 for the bottom six?

OP reminder : The Jeff and the English cause

English players in top six: 11
English players in bottom six: 18

by beshocked Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:34 pm

English English English! The British Empire no longer exists!

You should be pleased more praise has been heaped on George Ford.

Shame the real young star of the year was overlooked.

by Portnoy Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:41 pm

beshocked wrote:Welshmushroom you obviously missed out Saracens.

Portnoy I find your narrow minded broken record ramblings highly insulting(yes I know I can be equally guilty).

Do you not think it's good to give players from all nationalities opportunities in a top league like the AP? The foreign players at my club are arguably really friendly. I feel heartened to see Saracens helping countries other than England. Obviously as we hopefully flourish our contribution of English quality will grow.

I have absolutely no problem with foreign players in the Jeff. I draw the line at playing Jeff games during International windows.

And if as an example of the Sarries playing HEC games in SA as "helping countries other than England", then I'd say that only is done to emphasise the Sarries' Saffer brand.

Plus "The foreign players at my club are arguably really friendly" is a complete red herring.

by beshocked Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:13 pm

Sorry about the typo which I have edited. I wasn't sure whether to say arguably the most friendly or simply very friendly.

I am sure I know a lot more about Saracens and how they operate than you do. I would expect you to be infinitely more knowledgeable about Leicester.

Saracens are an English club who have plans to build a new stadium in north London. We are producing and developing quality English youngsters look at our u18s and u20s England representatives.

We have wealthy backers from SA. Big deal. We play one big game in another country - it actually helps our international brand.

Yes we have heard your arguments over and over. Offer some constructive solutions and actually look at both sides.

by Portnoy Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:20 pm

This is a bit of a stab in the dark - but I proposed a 'solution' to freeing up the season and avoiding both the playoffs and Jeff/Rabo games in IWs (from v1):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A82284320

Tell me if you can't view it and I'll post a copy.

by Poorfour Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:41 pm

It seems to me that Leicester's problem this season is that they've been very unlucky with injuries at exactly the same time as the RWC. they might have coped with either, but not both.

that's unfortunate, but it happens. I can remember when Gloucester were so short of backs that they had to play Forrester as a centre, and when Quins picked up a pub player called Gomarsall because all three scrum halves were crocked. Doesn't happen often to Leicester as they're usually All Black like in having the next unknown lined up and ready to shine... But the breadth of the lost players means the remaining squad is seriously lacking in the experience of playing together.

It's disheartening for Tigers fans, but since there really doesn't seem to be a way to reorganise the season, there's not much option but to grin and bear it and allow fans of lesser clubs their brief moment of schadenfreude.

by radelven Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:16 pm

Portnoy wrote:
radelven wrote:I've adjusted the original list to account for all internationals that were at the WC based on this older post

1 Harlequins 3 (Easter, Vallejos, Fa'asuvala)
2 Saracens 8 (Stevens, Wigglesworth, Burger, Wyles, Smith, Brown, Smit, Tagicakibau)
3 Sale 10 (Sheridan, Cueto, Vernon, Dickinson, Powell, Lewaravu, Buckley, Ostrikov, Lavea, Leota)
4 London Irish 8 (Corbisiero, Armitage, Hape, Tagicakibau, Ansbro, Lalanne, Ion, Sinclair)
5 Exeter 2 (Mitchell, Camacho)
6 Gloucester 7 (Tindall, Strokosch, Hamilton, S.Lawson, R.Lawson, Qera, EFS)
7 Bath 7 (Wilson, Mears, Moody, Banahan, Louw, Perenise, Donald)
8 Wasps 4 (Simpson, Thompson, Shaw, Taulafo)
9 Northampton 8 (Foden, Ashton, Lawes, Hartley, Wood, Tongauiha, Armitiev, Pisi)
10 Worcester 2 (Fatiaki, Lutui)
11 Leicester 12 (Youngs, Cole, Deacon, Tuilagi, Croft, Flood, Waldrom, Castrogiovanni, Ayerza, Agulla, Murphy, Tuilagi)
12 Newcastle 2 (Murray, Tuifua)

Which of course neatly sidesteps the OP issue. Which was supposed to emphasise the correlation between Jeff clubs and their contribution to the English cause.

Your (irrelevant to the OP) post might be made even more interesting if you emboldened the English players, italicised NH International players (who would normally be unavailable in S/A Internationals and 6Ns) and CAPITALISED SH players who would not normally affect Jeff club performances by dint of not being absent.

The crux of your OP was the effect on league positions of having games whilst players are away, so mentioning all the players that involved in the current league situation is far from irrelevant, it's key to informing the cause & effect aspect of your argument.

Portnoy wrote:Glaws EFS? Who he? Certainly not JPR or BOD- as players that could be generally identified by their initials.

EFS=Eliota Fuimaono-Sapolu, he made most pundits' AP team of the season last year and created a few headlines this WC. For obvious reasons it's been shorthand on this and old 606 for some time.

by niwatts Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:04 am

Last year (i.e. a normal non-WC year), 6 of the 22 premiership rounds were held during the international window, 4 of which were held the same weekend as an England international, 2 during the AIs and 2 during the 6Ns.

by formerly known as Sam Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:31 am

Do you not think it's good to give players from all nationalities opportunities in a top league like the AP? The foreign players at my club are really friendly. I feel heartened to see Saracens helping countries other than England. Obviously as we hopefully flourish our contribution of English quality will grow

The debate wasn't about the foreign internationals held by clubs, Tigers have plenty of foreign cult heros, it's abou the PRL and RFU not doing enough to support those that provide the bulk of the England first team. There is a serious concern that if nothing changes and the teams that provide the most English internationals continue to be hamstrung then the value of bringing through future England stars will be seen as pointless. We've already seen Falcons sell off some of their international stars because they didn't 'represent value for money'.

But the breadth of the lost players means the remaining squad is seriously lacking in the experience of playing together.

Doesn't help when the only first team players you have available are Chuter and Hamilton who are both looking decidely past it. Other than new signing Salvi pretty much every other player would not be in the first 15. Tighthead was a particular issue, down to the 5th choice really didn't help us.

by propdavid_london Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:02 am

I really dont see what the issue is - the agreement that is in place with the clubs and the RFU seems to work at the moment. The RFU picks its elite squad for the season and the clubs are compensated for the loss of those players. Is'nt there a similar payout from the RFU for clubs that field a healthy number of EQP?

I understand that some clubs have been hit harder in a WC year and others have just been unlucky with injuries. But as other posters have said, they have had 4yrs to plan - those clubs could have integrated their academy more ect. I see no reason just to change the system because some of the recent results havent gone as expected.

On the flip side - there are plenty of international in a normal season. 6N and AI's. Jeff games are still played in those windows, it just impacts the bigger clubs less as they normally still have their non european contingent playing.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:32 am

Paul Bolton in the Torygraph comments:

Bath (currently 7th in Premiership)
World Cup absentees: Matt Banahan, Lee Mears, David Wilson, Lewis Moody (England), Francois Louw (South Africa), Anthony Perinese (Samoa), Stephen Donald (New Zealand).
Premiership form: LWLWLWL Top try-scorer: Matt Carraro (2)
Three wins and two narrow defeats represent a decent start for Bath, who will expect to improve with the return of their World Cup contingent. Boast the best defensive record in the Premiership (they conceded only seven tries in their first six matches), but have scored only nine themselves.

Exeter (5th)
World Cup absentees: Craig Mitchell (Wales), Junior Poluleuligaga (Samoa), Gonzalo Camacho (Argentina) [missing Chris Budgen (Army) away at Forces World Cup]
Premiership form: WWLWLL Top try-scorer: Richard Baxter, Sireli Naqelevuki (2)
Have retained most of the side that won the Championship two seasons ago, and still proving a nuisance in the Premiership. Began the season with a famous win at Leicester and have been competitive in all their subsequent matches, with the exception of their most recent defeat at Northampton.

Gloucester (6th)
World Cup absentees: Eliota Fuimaono-Sapolu (Samoa), Akapusi Qera (Fiji), Jim Hamilton, Scott Lawson, Rory Lawson, Alasdair Strokosch (Scotland), Mike Tindall (England).
Premiership form: LWLWWL Top try-scorer: Charlie Sharples, Jonny May, Tom Voyce, Darren Dawidiuk (2)
Depleted by World Cup calls and early-season injuries to key players so will feel satisfied with their 50 per cent record. Should improve now their eight World Cup players are available, but youngsters such as hooker Darren Dawidiuk, lock Tom Savage and flanker Matt Cox have now gained valuable experience.

Harlequins (1st)
World Cup absentees: Nick Easter (England), Maurie Fa’asavalu (Samoa), Tomas Vallejos (Argentina).
Premiership form: WWWWWW Top try-scorer: Ugo Monye (3)
One of the few clubs who would not have minded the World Cup continuing for another two months, having lost only three players to the tournament. The only unbeaten Premiership side this season, Harlequins have prospered with a youthful side, many of them products of their academy system, with former All Black Nick Evans a calming influence at fly-half.

Leicester (11th)
World Cup absentees: Horacio Agulla, Marcos Ayerza (Argentina), Martin Castrogiovanni (Italy), Dan Cole, Tom Croft, Louis Deacon, Toby Flood, Manu Tuilagi, Thomas Waldrom, Ben Youngs (England), Geordan Murphy (Ireland), Alesana Tuilagi (Samoa).
Premiership form: LLWLLL Top try-scorer: Niall Morris (3)
The end of the World Cup could not come soon enough for Leicester who struggled with 12 players away in New Zealand and leaked 21 tries in six matches.Their only league win so far came against Newcastle, the only side below them in the table, and their five defeats included a record home loss, 50-25 against reigning champions Saracens.

London Irish (4th)
World Cup absentees: Delon Armitage, Alex Corbisiero, Shontayne Hape (England), Joe Ansbro (Scotland), Paulica Ion (Romania), Jebb Sinclair (Canada), Sailosi Tagicakibau (Samoa).
Premiership form: LLWWLW Top try-scorer: Jonathan Joseph (4)
Handily placed, despite having a small squad stretched to the limit by World Cup commitments. Youngsters Jonathan Joseph, Alex Gray and Max Lahiff stepped up in the absence of senior players. Entertaining and unpredictable in attack so score lots of tries but also tend to concede: they have the third-worst defensive record this season.

Newcastle (12th)
World Cup absentees: Euan Murray (Scotland), Taiasina Tu’ifa (Samoa).
Premiership form: LLLLWL Top try-scorer: Luke Fielden (2)
Expected to struggle and they have, even though they had just two players away at the World Cup. Managed only one victory in a six-week period when they might have expected to capitalise against depleted opponents, and have collected just one losing bonus point. They Have scored just eight tries so far and conceded 16: only Leicester have leaked more.

Northampton (9th)
World Cup absentees: Vasily Artemyev (Russia), Chris Ashton, Ben Foden, Dylan Hartley, Courtney Lawes, Tom Wood (England), George Pisi (Samoa), Soane Tonga’uiha (Tonga).
Premiership form: WLLLLW Top try-scorer: Martin Roberts, Phil Dowson, Greig Tonks, Paul Diggin, James Downey, Scott Armstrong (1)
Struggled for consistency while frontline players were away at the World Cup but the return of Ben Foden and Chris Ashton should give them the attacking edge they have lacked. Only Worcester have scored fewer tries. Russian winger Vasily Artemyev, who scored a hat-trick of tries on his debut against Saracens in the LV Cup, looks a shrewd signing.

Sale (3rd)
World Cup absentees: Mark Cueto, Andrew Sheridan (England), Alasdair Dickinson, Richie Vernon (Scotland), Tasesaa Lavea, Johnny Leota (Samoa), Wame Lewaravu (Fiji), Andrei Ostrikov (Russia), Tony Buckley (Ireland), Andy Powell (Wales).
Premiership form: LWWWLW Top try-scorer: Dwayne Peel, David Seymour (3)
The return of former hooker Steve Diamond as executive director of sport (ignore the title, he is the coach) has given Sale a tough and competitive edge. Took two bonus points from their 48-41 defeat at Harlequins. Diamond has revamped his squad and the Wales selectors did Sale a favour by not taking british Lions scrum-half Dwayne Peel to the World Cup.

Saracens (2nd)
World Cup absentees: Kelly Brown (Scotland), Jacques Burger (Namibia), John Smit (South Africa), Hayden Smith, Chris Wyles (USA), Matt Stevens, Richard Wigglesworth (England), Michael Tagicakibau (Fiji).
Premiership form: LWWWWW Top try-scorer: James Short, Owen Farrell, Ernst Joubert, Brad Barritt (2)
Suffered a first-day hiccup against Wasps in the London double header at Twickenham but have since looked solid. Continued their recent domination of Leicester by inflicting record defeat on them at Welford Road. Charlie Hodgson has been consistent and has formed an effective partnership with Owen Farrell.

Wasps (8th)
World Cup absentees: Joe Simpson, Steve Thompson (England), Zak Taulafo (Samoa).
Premiership form: WWLLLW Top try-scorer: Christian Wade (6)
Stuttered after an impressive opening-day win against Saracens. Have played some attractive rugby under new director of rugby Dai Young but are the only side to have lost to Newcastle. England sevens international Christian Wade has made impressive progress and is the Premiership’s leading try-scorer, forming a potent strikeforce with Tom Varndell.

Worcester (10th)
World Cup absentees: Ravia Fatiaki (Fiji), Aleki Lutui (Tonga).
Premiership form: WLLLWL Top try-scorer: Miles Benjamin and Marcel Garvey (2)
Last season’s Championship winners have been competitive since they returned to the Premiership, despite scoring only six tries in as many matches. Went three matches without conceding a try but failed to score one themselves in the same period. Barely affected by World Cup calls and the swift return of former England scrum-half Shaun Perry from a knee injury is a bonus. "

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:42 am

Thanks AllButt,

Interesting to see just how bad Worcester and Newcastles squads are that even with far fewer abentees they are unable to cope with the Jeff. Wasps too cant blame the loss of only 3 players for their position

Really impressive from Saracens but even more Sale who have come from nobodies last season to a great start despite missing almost as many as Tigers.

Quins have clealry benfitted from the lack of world cup callups.

I dont think Tigers can compeltly blame the callups for ruining their season, and they are notorious slow starters. Its unfortunate that the world cup coincided with a prop injury crisis, and now the centers too. But really its pretty clear that some teams have benefited from not having England or foriegn world cup players in their squads.
Retired Kiwis and Welshmen seems to be the way to go.

by Portnoy Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:42 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Paul Bolton in the Torygraph comments:

Bath (currently 7th in Premiership)
World Cup absentees: Matt Banahan, Lee Mears, David Wilson, Lewis Moody (England), Francois Louw (South Africa), Anthony Perinese (Samoa), Stephen Donald (New Zealand).
Premiership form: LWLWLWL Top try-scorer: Matt Carraro (2)
Three wins and two narrow defeats represent a decent start for Bath, who will expect to improve with the return of their World Cup contingent. Boast the best defensive record in the Premiership (they conceded only seven tries in their first six matches), but have scored only nine themselves.

Exeter (5th)
World Cup absentees: Craig Mitchell (Wales), Junior Poluleuligaga (Samoa), Gonzalo Camacho (Argentina) [missing Chris Budgen (Army) away at Forces World Cup]
Premiership form: WWLWLL Top try-scorer: Richard Baxter, Sireli Naqelevuki (2)
Have retained most of the side that won the Championship two seasons ago, and still proving a nuisance in the Premiership. Began the season with a famous win at Leicester and have been competitive in all their subsequent matches, with the exception of their most recent defeat at Northampton.

Gloucester (6th)
World Cup absentees: Eliota Fuimaono-Sapolu (Samoa), Akapusi Qera (Fiji), Jim Hamilton, Scott Lawson, Rory Lawson, Alasdair Strokosch (Scotland), Mike Tindall (England).
Premiership form: LWLWWL Top try-scorer: Charlie Sharples, Jonny May, Tom Voyce, Darren Dawidiuk (2)
Depleted by World Cup calls and early-season injuries to key players so will feel satisfied with their 50 per cent record. Should improve now their eight World Cup players are available, but youngsters such as hooker Darren Dawidiuk, lock Tom Savage and flanker Matt Cox have now gained valuable experience.

Harlequins (1st)
World Cup absentees: Nick Easter (England), Maurie Fa’asavalu (Samoa), Tomas Vallejos (Argentina).
Premiership form: WWWWWW Top try-scorer: Ugo Monye (3)
One of the few clubs who would not have minded the World Cup continuing for another two months, having lost only three players to the tournament. The only unbeaten Premiership side this season, Harlequins have prospered with a youthful side, many of them products of their academy system, with former All Black Nick Evans a calming influence at fly-half.

Leicester (11th)
World Cup absentees: Horacio Agulla, Marcos Ayerza (Argentina), Martin Castrogiovanni (Italy), Dan Cole, Tom Croft, Louis Deacon, Toby Flood, Manu Tuilagi, Thomas Waldrom, Ben Youngs (England), Geordan Murphy (Ireland), Alesana Tuilagi (Samoa).
Premiership form: LLWLLL Top try-scorer: Niall Morris (3)
The end of the World Cup could not come soon enough for Leicester who struggled with 12 players away in New Zealand and leaked 21 tries in six matches.Their only league win so far came against Newcastle, the only side below them in the table, and their five defeats included a record home loss, 50-25 against reigning champions Saracens.

London Irish (4th)
World Cup absentees: Delon Armitage, Alex Corbisiero, Shontayne Hape (England), Joe Ansbro (Scotland), Paulica Ion (Romania), Jebb Sinclair (Canada), Sailosi Tagicakibau (Samoa).
Premiership form: LLWWLW Top try-scorer: Jonathan Joseph (4)
Handily placed, despite having a small squad stretched to the limit by World Cup commitments. Youngsters Jonathan Joseph, Alex Gray and Max Lahiff stepped up in the absence of senior players. Entertaining and unpredictable in attack so score lots of tries but also tend to concede: they have the third-worst defensive record this season.

Newcastle (12th)
World Cup absentees: Euan Murray (Scotland), Taiasina Tu’ifa (Samoa).
Premiership form: LLLLWL Top try-scorer: Luke Fielden (2)
Expected to struggle and they have, even though they had just two players away at the World Cup. Managed only one victory in a six-week period when they might have expected to capitalise against depleted opponents, and have collected just one losing bonus point. They Have scored just eight tries so far and conceded 16: only Leicester have leaked more.

Northampton (9th)
World Cup absentees: Vasily Artemyev (Russia), Chris Ashton, Ben Foden, Dylan Hartley, Courtney Lawes, Tom Wood (England), George Pisi (Samoa), Soane Tonga’uiha (Tonga).
Premiership form: WLLLLW Top try-scorer: Martin Roberts, Phil Dowson, Greig Tonks, Paul Diggin, James Downey, Scott Armstrong (1)
Struggled for consistency while frontline players were away at the World Cup but the return of Ben Foden and Chris Ashton should give them the attacking edge they have lacked. Only Worcester have scored fewer tries. Russian winger Vasily Artemyev, who scored a hat-trick of tries on his debut against Saracens in the LV Cup, looks a shrewd signing.

Sale (3rd)
World Cup absentees: Mark Cueto, Andrew Sheridan (England), Alasdair Dickinson, Richie Vernon (Scotland), Tasesaa Lavea, Johnny Leota (Samoa), Wame Lewaravu (Fiji), Andrei Ostrikov (Russia), Tony Buckley (Ireland), Andy Powell (Wales).
Premiership form: LWWWLW Top try-scorer: Dwayne Peel, David Seymour (3)
The return of former hooker Steve Diamond as executive director of sport (ignore the title, he is the coach) has given Sale a tough and competitive edge. Took two bonus points from their 48-41 defeat at Harlequins. Diamond has revamped his squad and the Wales selectors did Sale a favour by not taking british Lions scrum-half Dwayne Peel to the World Cup.

Saracens (2nd)
World Cup absentees: Kelly Brown (Scotland), Jacques Burger (Namibia), John Smit (South Africa), Hayden Smith, Chris Wyles (USA), Matt Stevens, Richard Wigglesworth (England), Michael Tagicakibau (Fiji).
Premiership form: LWWWWW Top try-scorer: James Short, Owen Farrell, Ernst Joubert, Brad Barritt (2)
Suffered a first-day hiccup against Wasps in the London double header at Twickenham but have since looked solid. Continued their recent domination of Leicester by inflicting record defeat on them at Welford Road. Charlie Hodgson has been consistent and has formed an effective partnership with Owen Farrell.

Wasps (8th)
World Cup absentees: Joe Simpson, Steve Thompson (England), Zak Taulafo (Samoa).
Premiership form: WWLLLW Top try-scorer: Christian Wade (6)
Stuttered after an impressive opening-day win against Saracens. Have played some attractive rugby under new director of rugby Dai Young but are the only side to have lost to Newcastle. England sevens international Christian Wade has made impressive progress and is the Premiership’s leading try-scorer, forming a potent strikeforce with Tom Varndell.

Worcester (10th)
World Cup absentees: Ravia Fatiaki (Fiji), Aleki Lutui (Tonga).
Premiership form: WLLLWL Top try-scorer: Miles Benjamin and Marcel Garvey (2)
Last season’s Championship winners have been competitive since they returned to the Premiership, despite scoring only six tries in as many matches. Went three matches without conceding a try but failed to score one themselves in the same period. Barely affected by World Cup calls and the swift return of former England scrum-half Shaun Perry from a knee injury is a bonus. "

Once again the argument is chosen by posters to be distracted away from the OP - The Jeff and the English cause.

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