Who goes?...............You decide

First topic message reminder :

Ok here is the deal; You vote for the poster which you think should leave the 606v2 golf boards. The person with the most votes must exclusively post in the boxing and wrestling forums for a set period of time.

The amount of time spent banished to the wrestling and boxing forums will be determined by the voters. When voting also post a period of time, the average of these times will set the length of exile for the person with the most votes.

I have put myself and super up for vote, if anyone strongly feels there is a better candidate they will be added.

Mercurio wrote:The golf forum does not require moderation provided it is not invaded by numpties from other fora.

I don't like the idea of moderators from elsewhere moderating the golf board. I would want Davie and Mav to be reinstated if this is the case.

agreed

Mercurio wrote:The golf forum does not require moderation provided it is not invaded by numpties from other fora.

I don't like the idea of moderators from elsewhere moderating the golf board. I would want Davie and Mav to be reinstated if this is the case.

That would be the bit i'd like to see changed if we were to be reinstated or asked to return on the back of support from posters on here, then I would like to see not just the golf boards modded by golf only Mods as they are the guys that know the personalities and the context in which things are written. I think that would be good across the forum though for all boards modded purely by there on MOD team

The fooking noobhead Keizo should be banned and its ok for Hobo to spout free country stuff, but if Hobo had a shop (Wouldn't be a deli') and that noob came in every day and smashed stuff up and nicked some buns and ran out. he would be banned, but he's allowed to come on here, and light the fuse and watch the explosion. Why should the majority be penalised by a gobshyte

This seems a good time to set the record straight, hopefully without breaking any confidences of people with whom I had PM correspondences in the aftermath.

For the record, I have always been one to encourage people to either engage, debate or ignore Keizo. Yes we all know what his intentions may be but while he just about stays on the right side of the rules (remember there is no specific rule about WUMming as that leads to too much subjectivity), but it's amazing how many of the Keizo articles have generated a lot of good discussion, debate (not to mention banter)

On the thread in question there was first a very obfuscated personal insult towards Keizo. As it wasn't blatant I let the first one go, but when two or three more appeared it became apparent to me that it was going to get out of control so I removed the posts (and archived them for other admins/mods to see as is the rule). In my opinion removing the posts was all that was required and no warnings were issued.

It was only once the posts had been archived that other admins/mods noticed them and decided that they were worthy of a 24 hour ban.

I appealed for leniency as there had been no real harm done, but it fell on deaf ears and the bans were enforced against my wishes. It was at that point that I quit my position as mod.

To make the story complete, and in fairness to the people involved, I did later receive an apology for overruling my decision and my place on the mod team was offered back to me. So far I have been unable to decide what to do.

In all honesty after all the time V2 has been open for business (9 months now?) there has hardly been anything for golf mods to do other that sticky and unsticky duties. On the rare occasions there is something more serious, we all have access to the "report" button, though from a personal point of view I would suggest not to use it on any future Keizo articles unless they clearly break any rules - the admin team are not very forgiving of what they may consider "frivolous reports" and I very much agreed with that stance when I was an admin.

If the admin team want to give me back the permissions to stick and unstick the weekly threads I'm happy to do that. I'm really not sure there is much else for me to do though in this section. I felt I had more to offer the forum as an admin where I had some input and control over the technical aspects of the site (the shop, links and portal pages for example), but it became clear that due to certain clashes of personalities on the admin team, "someone had to go" and that someone was me.
On the thread in question

Nah, freedom of speech isnt a crime Mav, he did only give his opinions. I insulted him and deserved a ban. Whether you like what he was saying he should still be allowed to say it.
I personally would seriously reconsider posting on here if they started banning people for simply having an opinion however unpopular it happened to be....actually hang on, if they banned people for that reason then Id probably be kicked off anyway.

I think I'd be great as a mod, anyone agrees? (apart from Diggers)

Diggers wrote:Nah, freedom of speech isnt a crime Mav, he did only give his opinions. I insulted him and deserved a ban. Whether you like what he was saying he should still be allowed to say it.
I personally would seriously reconsider posting on here if they started banning people for simply having an opinion however unpopular it happened to be....actually hang on, if they banned people for that reason then Id probably be kicked off anyway.

Diggers agree with freedom of speach and as Davie mentions we have always let Keizo's threads run, the harshness of the decision and reason for resignations is that our claims fell on deaf ears, and as Davie mentions the offending articles were removed before the admin teams needed to do anything yet retrospective bans for something that had already been addressed was something we did not agree with. Bit like DQ'ing someone from an event they have already accepted a penalty ruling on from a another official only to be then done over by another more senior official because they take a different stance on it.....

The golf boards do run themselves, rarely did we ever need to get involved in anything and when we did it was done with complete transparency for all the posters to see, so as to keep everyone on the loop and not to undermine the board.

I think you'd be wasted JPX, I see you more in the prison officer or traffic warden role.......

Funny you should say that Diggers, I'm thinking about becomming one of those traffic officers. I would love to sit on the side of a motorway and nick all of those speeding drivers.

What car do you drive by the way?

A Bentley convertible.

Davie wrote:This seems a good time to set the record straight, hopefully without breaking any confidences of people with whom I had PM correspondences in the aftermath.

For the record, I have always been one to encourage people to either engage, debate or ignore Keizo. Yes we all know what his intentions may be but while he just about stays on the right side of the rules (remember there is no specific rule about WUMming as that leads to too much subjectivity), but it's amazing how many of the Keizo articles have generated a lot of good discussion, debate (not to mention banter)

On the thread in question there was first a very obfuscated personal insult towards Keizo. As it wasn't blatant I let the first one go, but when two or three more appeared it became apparent to me that it was going to get out of control so I removed the posts (and archived them for other admins/mods to see as is the rule). In my opinion removing the posts was all that was required and no warnings were issued.

It was only once the posts had been archived that other admins/mods noticed them and decided that they were worthy of a 24 hour ban.

I appealed for leniency as there had been no real harm done, but it fell on deaf ears and the bans were enforced against my wishes. It was at that point that I quit my position as mod.

To make the story complete, and in fairness to the people involved, I did later receive an apology for overruling my decision and my place on the mod team was offered back to me. So far I have been unable to decide what to do.

In all honesty after all the time V2 has been open for business (9 months now?) there has hardly been anything for golf mods to do other that sticky and unsticky duties. On the rare occasions there is something more serious, we all have access to the "report" button, though from a personal point of view I would suggest not to use it on any future Keizo articles unless they clearly break any rules - the admin team are not very forgiving of what they may consider "frivolous reports" and I very much agreed with that stance when I was an admin.

If the admin team want to give me back the permissions to stick and unstick the weekly threads I'm happy to do that. I'm really not sure there is much else for me to do though in this section. I felt I had more to offer the forum as an admin where I had some input and control over the technical aspects of the site (the shop, links and portal pages for example), but it became clear that due to certain clashes of personalities on the admin team, "someone had to go" and that someone was me.
On the thread in question

I just want to clear things up about this post as I feel that it is representative of Davie and Mavs views to whom this section will be allied to. I feel that in fairness, the other side of the argument should be presented.

Firstly, these types of arguments shouldnt be brought into the public domain - they are usually done behind closed doors and have happened on numerous occasions in the past. This is by no means a first.

Secondly, 2 of the 3 people banned accepted they had done wrong and accepted the punishment.

Thirdly, the comments they had made, had been committed by other members in different sections and resulted in bans. This was the crux of the banning - a precedent had been set and was used as a template to the course of action.

Finally, I think its grossly unfair to single out one incident as the catalyst for anyone being removed from their posts. All of the admins have fallen out over time over various things - a clash of personalities is always going to happen. "It was not down to someone had to go." That description is not representative of what happened. that is all that is to be said on the matter.

So what happens next?

Well to be honest, nothing. Business as usual. The current teams will continue to try and keep an eye on here but we may have to retrospectively take action, if we miss something. So the only solution is that you behave and report any posts that break the rules. for the time being, we will not be appointing a golf moderator as you appear to be doing just fine.

This was the crux of the banning - a precedent had been set and was used as a template to the course of action.

Even though action had already been taken by the boards moderator, a case of over Mod'ing the board.

All of the admins have fallen out over time over various things - a clash of personalities is always going to happen

Personality clashes are always going to happen, but when your told this is not a democracy thats not a personality clash it's dictator ship.

"It was not down to someone had to go

I don't believe that either, refer back to the LJgate where, it was demanded he offer apology or never return, the golf mod's disagreed with this too, then the bans of the Keizo 3 done after a MOD had already dealt with it before it became an issue, left Davie and I with no choice as we felt undermined and as if no matter what we deemed appropriate course of action on any future issue would be then changed to suit those above.

So what happens next?

Well to be honest, nothing. Business as usual. The current teams will continue to try and keep an eye on here but we may have to retrospectively take action, if we miss something. So the only solution is that you behave and report any posts that break the rules. for the time being, we will not be appointing a golf moderator as you appear to be doing just fine.

Can't say that really surprise me a great deal, despite the support of golf posters to former MOD's appears a decision has been made to retrospectively act on the golf board posters, so that'll be mod'ing after the horse has already bolted then. Just a good job in general were a well behaved bunch.

Now I fully expect my comments to be MOD'd and subject to discussion on the MOD board as being the former employee turned rogue agent, but all I can say is all of the above are the exact reasons why we resigned and would do so again if the choice is between being a MOD and being a respected poster on the golf boards by the golfing fraternity on here it's an easy decision to make. I'll remain a poster for indefinate thats provided I don't get a ban for openly challenging the admin team

Im quite happy to be banned for 24 hours but I do really get wound up when mods use words like behave. Makes me miss the days when you would just get a generic message from the old BBC 606 mods.

Maverick wrote:

This was the crux of the banning - a precedent had been set and was used as a template to the course of action.

Even though action had already been taken by the boards moderator, a case of over Mod'ing the board.

Action had been taken, but it was deemed too lenient in view of bans that had been made in the past for the same offence. Regardless of how sections are mod'd (and golf has never been heavily modded due to the lack of problems), breaches of the site rules are dealt with equally across the site.

Modding your cybermates must be difficult anyway.
Think we all appreciate the work the three of you have done (is MPB still a Mod?).

The Suarez/Barton aspect of all this still rankles though. It's not clear if the MOD Squad are going to sanction the instigator or just behave like your typical Prem referee and come down on the retaliator.

Meanwhile, I'm with oldpar; hope Mac and super_ can call it a draw and move on.

As far as I know, Diggers, Red and myself were not offended by the bans and on reflection thought they were probably meritted.

Enforcer wrote:

Maverick wrote:

This was the crux of the banning - a precedent had been set and was used as a template to the course of action.

Even though action had already been taken by the boards moderator, a case of over Mod'ing the board.

Action had been taken, but it was deemed too lenient in view of bans that had been made in the past for the same offence. Regardless of how sections are mod'd (and golf has never been heavily modded due to the lack of problems), breaches of the site rules are dealt with equally across the site.

As I said over modding, too lenient in some eyes not in others, due to the members who in question are not usually insulting, but they've accepted their punishments so doesn't matter now does it

Enforcer wrote:Action had been taken, but it was deemed too lenient in view of bans that had been made in the past for the same offence. Regardless of how sections are mod'd (and golf has never been heavily modded due to the lack of problems), breaches of the site rules are dealt with equally across the site.

I believe if my memory serves me rightly, only one of the "keizo 3" committed the "offense" that was dragged up from before. The other two committed less serious offenses with no previous precedent)

I was never a MOD Kwini
No one listens to what I say!

"The attempt to combine wisdom and power has only rarely been successful and then only for a short while" - Einstein

No one listens to what I say!

Sounds like being in my house

Am I alone in starting to take offence at the patronising manner of Hobo's posts, as if we should be really thankful for what he does and we're lucky to have him and the other mods?

It is very easy to set-up message forums, you know? As I said earlier, the golf forum doesn't need a moderator. An administrator, maybe, but not a moderator.

We're here out of convenience but, I'm sure, it's not a convenience so great that we would not consider moving elsewhere if we felt we were being treated like children.

Am I alone in starting to take offence at the patronising manner of Hobo's posts, No your not,

i'm with you hence my responses

Merc,
I for one don't agree with that - most of the posters on here are alumni of 606 in one form or another but the number of contributors is significantly diminished from 606 where it was easy to be accessed by browsers.
Sure it would be easy to establish another forum but sure as sh1t the number of posters would diminish again and it would become increasingly difficult for casual golf fans to find it.

I think we're entitled to agree or disagree with the Admin, just as we surely did with 606, but overall this is a good site and I'm grateful for the forum and thankful for the work done to facilitate it.

It is very easy to set up a forum it is a lot harder to get people to post on it. We have a great membership here which would be very hard to replicate. It was not through great wisdom of the founders that we have such a great site rather the chance to tap into an up and running bbc forum. This will never happen again and for this reason we would be naïve to think we could create another 606 type golf forum.

I would also say that since the initial move from 606 to 606v2 we have been modded well and the golf section run successfully. I hope this will not change now that davie and mav have had to change roles on the site.


Hobo

I would however say to you that a less patronising tone wouldn’t exactly harm relations with the golfing section.

Kwini is right, one more forced board change and I think that would be it. As it is Id imagine that 90% of the posts on here probably come from about 20 members.

kwinigolfer wrote:

The Suarez/Barton aspect of all this still rankles though. It's not clear if the MOD Squad are going to sanction the instigator or just behave like your typical Prem referee and come down on the retaliator.

.

This annoyed me at and still does, I made this known to the mods at time even though I accepted the ban. We'll never have a Utopia, but we can certainly do without tolerating inflammatory posters due to the old freedom of speech chestnut, especially when the same courtesy isn't returned when you call them out for the offensive time wasters that they are. If Kezio can call Luke Donald arrogant, why can't I call him a t**t? They are equally offensive gestures... and if anything I would probably rather be a t**t than arrogant!

I’m not saying it’s my preference to move, but I don’t see the difficulty in setting up a new forum and bringing the golf contributors to it if we felt the ‘elevated’ mods were overstepping the mark.

We already have D4S’ e-mail lists from the BBC 606 as a starting point and the tangled web of connections from meet-ups, etc. is also there. Plus there’s the ability to use PMs on here.

We’re all adults, even more so on the golf forum, and adults don’t like being treated like kids (unless we’re visiting one of those surrogate mother types from the kind of show you get on Five ).

Red, if you had called Keizo arrogant for suggesting Luke Donald was arrogant do you think you would have recieved a ban. Because I dont think you would have.
Also in my mind it is completely different having a pop at someone who almost certainly doesnt look at the site as opposed to abusing another poster. If everyone who had insulted Tiger Woods, or Finchem, or Poulter (me, me,me) or indeed christianity were to be banned the board would be empty.

Diggers wrote:Red, if you had called Keizo arrogant for suggesting Luke Donald was arrogant do you think you would have recieved a ban. Because I dont think you would have.
Also in my mind it is completely different having a pop at someone who almost certainly doesnt look at the site as opposed to abusing another poster. If everyone who had insulted Tiger Woods, or Finchem, or Poulter (me, me,me) or indeed christianity were to be banned the board would be empty.

That is my point though, they are equally offensive and you are sure to be banned for one but not the other.

Sorry Red, my point is I dont think they are remotely equally offensive.

Diggers wrote:Sorry Red, my point is I dont think they are remotely equally offensive.

We'll need to agree to disagree then. I would be really quite offended to be deemed arrogant. It is a quite a smear against your character... but a t**t (when I am clearly being a t**t) is unlikely to bother me.

Furthermore, How do you know who looks on this forum? The mods want to establish this forum and do deals with brand names and yet we have inflammatory rubbish like 'Is Luke Donald is the most arrogant man in the world?' littering the golf forum.

Enforcer wrote:Regardless of how sections are mod'd (and golf has never been heavily modded due to the lack of problems), breaches of the site rules are dealt with equally across the site.

And that, there, is what I fundamentally disagree with.

I'm joined this for golf, not for the other boards.

OK, Red, so if we go along with your idea that Donald might look at the forum we have to accept that Tiger Woods, Poulter, Monty, Fowler etc might also be browsing the forum.
Simple question, should the people who have used equally as insulting words towards those people, in fact a lot worse than arrogant has been used, be banned ?
Because to me unless they are banned there is no case whatsoever for banning Keizo.

Diggers wrote:OK, Red, so if we go along with your idea that Donald might look at the forum we have to accept that Tiger Woods, Poulter, Monty, Fowler etc might also be browsing the forum.
Simple question, should the people who have used equally as insulting words towards those people, in fact a lot worse than arrogant has been used, be banned ?
Because to me unless they are banned there is no case whatsoever for banning Keizo.

The case for banning Keizo is that he is a WUM.

Diggers wrote:OK, Red, so if we go along with your idea that Donald might look at the forum we have to accept that Tiger Woods, Poulter, Monty, Fowler etc might also be browsing the forum.
Simple question, should the people who have used equally as insulting words towards those people, in fact a lot worse than arrogant has been used, be banned ?
Because to me unless they are banned there is no case whatsoever for banning Keizo.

It wouldn't break my heart if they were, everytime S_R or Gael start a rant about Tiger I feel myself getting sleepy. Honestly though, I think you should be able to say what you like if you can justify it. Keizo couldn't, it was shameless wumming. Why else did you get involved and earn yourself a ban?

You dont know that, if he genuinely believes what he writes then he isn't IMO.
And even if he is as long as he stays withing the boundaries of the site rules thats fine. One mans WUM is another mans star poster. LJ used to write loads of stuff to deliberately provoke and wind people up, but that was OK ?

Just because I dont like the guy doesnt mean he shouldnt be able to say what he wants. Ive admitted I deserved a ban for saying it.

This stuff is hilarious.

Guys, the hobo has spoken and we must obey. He set this up, don't you know.

Mercurio wrote:

Enforcer wrote:Regardless of how sections are mod'd (and golf has never been heavily modded due to the lack of problems), breaches of the site rules are dealt with equally across the site.

And that, there, is what I fundamentally disagree with.

I'm joined this for golf, not for the other boards.

Same here, and that's why I think the Moderation should be done my Golf specific Mods not general/global mods! I also found the whole thing of having Mod/Admin/Founder tagged to your name as a little pretentious very much like an old boys club thing and something that detracted from being part of the posting culture which is why I'm here.

Board specific mod's would know the lie of the land better than any global mod just because you got the title doesn't mean a) you know what your doing b) will be repsected unless your known to the board and c) mean your right!

Diggers wrote:You dont know that, if he genuinely believes what he writes then he isn't IMO.

Come off it, he was deliberately twisting the quotes to suit himself. It was clear after a few comments that he was at it but he would never admit it. Wumming should be discouraged imo, whether it is Keizo or LJ. It's not up to either of us anyway.

I can honestly say that the golf forum has been completely Wummed. The post was put on it, to wind people up, and he won, things will not be the same now, in my opinion we have opened the doors for the Wumms to walk in and cause problems.

The only answer would be, to re-instate Mav and Davie, and leave it to them to decide, how to mod the board, as most of us on here know where the line is, so we do not cross it, but when the Wumms come let Mav and Davie deal with it, as I am sure they will make the correct decisions for the posters on here

oldpar,

Hear Hear!

And let's adopt your suggestion and call a draw between super_realist and McLaren.

Without wanting to appear melodramatic, I just want to place, on record, my respect for Davie and Mav for being men of principle.

Good to see.

oldparwin wrote:I can honestly say that the golf forum has been completely Wummed. The post was put on it, to wind people up, and he won, things will not be the same now, in my opinion we have opened the doors for the Wumms to walk in and cause problems.

The only answer would be, to re-instate Mav and Davie, and leave it to them to decide, how to mod the board, as most of us on here know where the line is, so we do not cross it, but when the Wumms come let Mav and Davie deal with it, as I am sure they will make the correct decisions for the posters on here

OP well said, there has been much talk about precedents by the admins on this thread. The only precedents I can see that have been said is a) allowing a WUM to contiue and B) patronising comments/responses from admins. Surely stamp out the wumming and then the friction is gone! I'm not advocating Keizo to be banned but that he is informed of what wumming is and how so far the majority are not appreciative of how he contructs his threads.

Also think the admin team need to contruct their repsonses in a way that doesn't patronise its posters and another reason why board specific mods are better as they are here day in day out and to and extent word things accordingly to peoples personalities so as not to incite but still get the points across

I appreciate the support Davie and I are both receiving on here for what we've done and what some still want us to do, but judging by Hobo's response and our own retorts to the admin team an invite to help maontain balance on this board will not be forthcoming from the powers that be!

Mav,

As you seem so keen to bring up what has been discussed on the mod and admin boards, I will ask you a question that would be nice to see a honest answer to.

Which admin has always stated that we should come down on WUMs from the get go?

And Secondly

Which Former admin/ former moderator was the one who always stated that we should not ban wums but engage them in debate?

If you need help, just ask.

sorry if this is patronising to you but I am tired of the bickering on this thread today. I have actually been trying to play peacemaker amongst all of this today, however, outsiders of the golf board are not always made to feel welcome. Its like LJO never left.

hobo

You can take the golfer out the golf club but you cannot take the golf club out of the golfer.

Adam D (Hobo) wrote:Mav,

As you seem so keen to bring up what has been discussed on the mod and admin boards, I will ask you a question that would be nice to see a honest answer to.

Which admin has always stated that we should come down on WUMs from the get go?

And Secondly

Which Former admin/ former moderator was the one who always stated that we should not ban wums but engage them in debate?

If you need help, just ask.

sorry if this is patronising to you but I am tired of the bickering on this thread today. I have actually been trying to play peacemaker amongst all of this today, however, outsiders of the golf board are not always made to feel welcome. Its like LJO never left.

Oh very dear Hobo this comment does nothing to endear you to the golf boards it just makes you look silly and plain daft, very childish really... On the back of this comment alone I'll await my ban!

But I'll play your silly game and will state the truth I have nothing to hide or fear od reprimand!

The first part of your comment you are the Admin that is for banning Wums your point being!

The other part who defends him! That would be Davie and Davie openly admitted to such on this thread so again that's not news to the golfers on this board!

You yourself can also testify in my case that I hardly ever posted a single thing on the MODs board, I'd dip in time to time but the number of comments I made totals less than 20-25. The reason for this was it seems far to clicky and too much like a silly hand shake committee.

Patronising is your only tone you have as it was you yourself that made the this is not a democracy comment!!!

I'll finish with this! The board maybe created by the admins but a forum is only as good as its posters maybe you guys should remember that!!!!

I'll await my ban!

Maverick wrote:

Patronising is your only tone you have as it was you yourself that made the this is not a democracy comment!!!

Patronising?

Are you sure that's the word you meant to use?

Adam D (Hobo) wrote:

Maverick wrote:

Patronising is your only tone you have as it was you yourself that made the this is not a democracy comment!!!

Patronising?

Are you sure that's the word you meant to use?

Purelay based on this last comment do I need to say more to prove my point! Not really

i bet kiezo is pissin in his panties !!!

i think you guys should keep this stuff in house. this is a good forum and the golf board is the only one im interested in. personally i embrace the WUM. coz it does what it says on the tin. treat it for what it is and remember that you do not have to comment...or even read a thread started by a known wum for that matter.