In fight turbulence-Eng Dressing Room not a happy place: Ian Botham

by anu_d Wed 26 Oct - 9:59

fully story and comments are on skysports.
Even Dhoni could see the shades of a disjointed unit from outside and commented several times on this.

In-fight turbulence
Dressing room clearly not a happy place, says Beefy

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"If you watch from afar it doesn't look a happy side," said Beefy. "They are at each other's throats; there is all sorts going on. There were niggles at the end of play here tonight.

"I don't know what that is but you cannot keep ignoring that, there is something going on; someone needs to sort that out because that is definitely having an effect.

"Throughout this series we have seen too much of that. If you've got things to sort out do it in the dressing room man-to-man and get the thing sorted out, not out in the field.

"I was disappointed to see that kind of performance; you should be man enough to sort it out in the dressing room and if you have a problem with a member of the opposition again, go into the dressing room and sort it out. It is the only way the air gets cleared. It was quite ugly here at times and unnecessary.

"To be honest, when you hear some of the things we hear from the stump mics it is pretty pathetic, to be quite honest

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I do think that something has happened in the dressing room and I think that Graeme Swann was left out [in Mumbai]. They won't admit it. It will come out in the wash eventually but something went on.

"What is this writing a book when you are still playing? When we were contracted you could not write a book - how can you write an autobiography when you are still playing? You shouldn't do it. It can only go one way - it can only cause problems.

"If you've got something to say, you've got plenty of time to say it when you are long retired."

Beefy pointed the finger of blame at the batsmen and their inability to adapt an overly-rigid game-plan.

"We're World No 1 in the Test rankings, we're world No 1 in the T20 rankings - so in between how do we go so horribly wrong?" he asked.

"You can come out with 'we picked some positives up out of this' but that's baloney, absolute baloney. You've been trounced and it has been embarrassing.

"If I'm going to be really honest we're just not good enough; we don't seem to learn; we don't realise you can knock the balls; we only seem to try to deal in fours and sixes - occasionally - or dot balls.

"If you watch the Indian players they let the ball come on, they knock it into the holes, they run; everything we do is hard and rigid. It is like throw-downs - punch, punch, punch - whereas you'll see the other players like Ghambir, Dhoni just turn it into the little areas and keep the board ticking over.

"We haven't learned. The spinners come on and we do the basics wrong. If the ball is turning away from us we don't want to be trying to hit it over midwicket; you want to be going with it a bit more. It's almost like a rabbit caught in the lights. We just don't know.

"England have to have a re-think and start thinking on their feet against the opposition, according to what the ball is doing on the surface at that time. At the moment we are all hell bent on one thing, we are very, very stereo-typed and predictable and very easy to set fields for."

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by ShankyCricket Wed 26 Oct - 10:05

I do have a slight suspicion that Swann might be a disturbing presence in the dressing room.His comments on KP are OK although unwarranted but from what I have heard his comments on Patel were unacceptable.

by anu_d Wed 26 Oct - 10:06

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:I do have a slight suspicion that Swann might be a disturbing presence in the dressing room.His comments on KP are OK although unwarranted but from what I have heard his comments on Patel were unacceptable.

there are murmurs that KP doesn't want to play under Swann's captaincy hence his rightly timed thumb injury!
Could that be true?

by ShankyCricket Wed 26 Oct - 10:09

anu_d wrote:
shankythebiggestengfan wrote:I do have a slight suspicion that Swann might be a disturbing presence in the dressing room.His comments on KP are OK although unwarranted but from what I have heard his comments on Patel were unacceptable.

there are murmurs that KP doesn't want to play under Swann's captaincy hence his rightly timed thumb injury!
Could that be true?

To be honest,KP's thumb looked badly hurt.What you are saying could be true that he doesnt want to play under Swann but as far as his injury is concerned,its not fake.He is really injured.

by rich1uk Wed 26 Oct - 10:13

so the fact he clearly hurt it in the 4th ODI , it has been x-rayed and there is a fracture, he then got hit again with a loose ball in warm-up before yesterday's game but he has still stayed with the squad because he hopes to be able to play in the t20 is because he doesn't want to play for swann ?

i see you haven't changed from your time on 606 , just make up silly allegations that have no basis in truth when the facts are available which contradict you

if there was any basis for him using the injury as an excuse to not play under swann he would have flown home after the injury had ruled him out yesterday

by anu_d Wed 26 Oct - 10:15

rich1uk wrote:so the fact he clearly hurt it in the 4th ODI , it has been x-rayed and there is a fracture, he then got hit again with a loose ball in warm-up before yesterday's game but he has still stayed with the squad because he hopes to be able to play in the t20 is because he doesn't want to play for swann ?

i see you haven't changed from your time on 606 , just make up silly allegations that have no basis in truth when the facts are available which contradict you

if there was any basis for him using the injury as an excuse to not play under swann he would have flown home after the injury had ruled him out yesterday

^ allegation?
I am merely trying to validate from those who might know more.
the basis for in fights and center of those being Swann and KP are coming from Sir Ian Botham and not me Shocked

by ShankyCricket Wed 26 Oct - 10:17

rich1uk wrote:so the fact he clearly hurt it in the 4th ODI , it has been x-rayed and there is a fracture, he then got hit again with a loose ball in warm-up before yesterday's game but he has still stayed with the squad because he hopes to be able to play in the t20 is because he doesn't want to play for swann ?

i see you haven't changed from your time on 606 , just make up silly allegations that have no basis in truth when the facts are available which contradict you

if there was any basis for him using the injury as an excuse to not play under swann he would have flown home after the injury had ruled him out yesterday

Well,KP is clealry injured.Anyone who thinks otherwise is drunk.But as far as Swann is concerned,i do have a suspicion(dunno why) that some players arent happy with Swann which could be why he was dropped for the 4th ODI?i dont think anyone has come out and said he was rested which they would have done if he was actually being rested.i am not saying its true but it is a possibility.

by trebellbobaggins Wed 26 Oct - 10:19

hmm, some players and coaches soon to be fired?

eng do need to stop being awful at ODI's. Maybe a total reshuffle is needed and get a specialist coaching team for this form.

by rich1uk Wed 26 Oct - 10:20

those who might know more than you

so that would basically be everyone who has ever watched a cricket match

KP wasn't even playing yesterday but swann looked out of sorts so trying to blame the animosity on the supposed rift between KP and swann doesn't make alot of sense. the KP_swann thing has been blown well out of proportion imo , fact is england have played badly on this tour, the experiments they have made haven't really paid off and they have been outclassed by india in every aspect.

if england had been competitive in this series then i dont think we would even have heard a whisper about any of this "in-house friction"

by anu_d Wed 26 Oct - 10:21

Well,KP is clealry injured

yes !
what sows seeds of doubts are the causes of injury.

Popular report attribute it to a wild throw from an "unknown player" during practise( why unknown??????) that hit KP
and KP himsefl Twitters that it was not during practise.

by anu_d Wed 26 Oct - 10:23

rich1uk wrote:those who might know more than you

so that would basically be everyone who has ever watched a cricket match

KP wasn't even playing yesterday but swann looked out of sorts so trying to blame the animosity on the supposed rift between KP and swann doesn't make alot of sense. the KP_swann thing has been blown well out of proportion imo , fact is england have played badly on this tour, the experiments they have made haven't really paid off and they have been outclassed by india in every aspect.

if england had been competitive in this series then i dont think we would even have heard a whisper about any of this "in-house friction"

surely Iam Botham...with his stature in English cricket...his presence on ground in India...his access to players present and past and those close to the dressing room.....and his knowldge of the responsibility he carries...would have considred all factors before airing his opinion so distinctly in the media and on records ???

by ShankyCricket Wed 26 Oct - 10:24

rich1uk wrote:those who might know more than you

so that would basically be everyone who has ever watched a cricket match

KP wasn't even playing yesterday but swann looked out of sorts so trying to blame the animosity on the supposed rift between KP and swann doesn't make alot of sense. the KP_swann thing has been blown well out of proportion imo , fact is england have played badly on this tour, the experiments they have made haven't really paid off and they have been outclassed by india in every aspect.

if england had been competitive in this series then i dont think we would even have heard a whisper about any of this "in-house friction"

Agreed but you cant completely rule out the possibility of a rift particularly given Swann's comments on Patel.The team did look a bit divided tbh.Not saying that we lost because of it but you cant rule out the possibility completely.These are merely speculations but they could be true.i hope they are not but dont rule it out.

by rich1uk Wed 26 Oct - 10:26

anu_d wrote:
Well,KP is clealry injured

yes !
what sows seeds of doubts are the causes of injury.

Popular report attribute it to a wild throw from an "unknown player" during practise( why unknown??????) that hit KP
and KP himsefl Twitters that it was not during practise.

the incident was shown on TV yesterday

he was chatting to a cameraman and wasn't watching and a stray throw hit him on the hand , it was quite clearly an accident

stop trying to make it out to be more than it was

by rich1uk Wed 26 Oct - 10:27

anu_d wrote:
rich1uk wrote:those who might know more than you

so that would basically be everyone who has ever watched a cricket match

KP wasn't even playing yesterday but swann looked out of sorts so trying to blame the animosity on the supposed rift between KP and swann doesn't make alot of sense. the KP_swann thing has been blown well out of proportion imo , fact is england have played badly on this tour, the experiments they have made haven't really paid off and they have been outclassed by india in every aspect.

if england had been competitive in this series then i dont think we would even have heard a whisper about any of this "in-house friction"

surely Iam Botham...with his stature in English cricket...his presence on ground in India...his access to players present and past and those close to the dressing room.....and his knowldge of the responsibility he carries...would have considred all factors before airing his opinion so distinctly in the media and on records ???

no

ian botham is a pundit , his job is to get people to read things and its not really unheard for things to be sensationalised by people in the media now is it

by Stella Wed 26 Oct - 10:29

Botham was a great player but talks a lot of cr.p

Pele is proof that ex greats don't always know what they're on about.

by anu_d Wed 26 Oct - 10:29

rich1uk wrote: the incident was shown on TV yesterday

he was chatting to a cameraman and wasn't watching and a stray throw hit him on the hand , it was quite clearly an accident

stop trying to make it out to be more than it was

Hmmm...making up?
then why is KP denying it himself on twitter..picked up by telegraph and world wide media. I thing is clear that you are perhaps not in line with the entire story as it's being reported:

from telegraph in derek pringle's article

Meawhiole there was more pain for Kevin Pietersen. Nursing his broken thumb ahead of the series finale, a wayward ball seemed to strike him perilously close to his delicate digit.

England’s spin-bowling coach Mushtaq Ahmed failed to take the ball cleanly from an unknown fielder’s throw, merely deflecting into Pietersen’s path. Although reports on Tuesday said the ball hit him on his problematic left thumb, he denied it on Twitter, saying: “I broke my thumb on Sunday in the game in Mumbai. NOT today as reported pre-game!! The ball that hit me today hit my hand & NOT my thumb.”

by ShankyCricket Wed 26 Oct - 10:30

I cant imagine how can anyone claim there is definitely a rift.There could be.But dont make allegations just yet Anuradha.Nothing has been proved as of now.It is a possibility,nothing more than that.

by **Fists of Fury** Wed 26 Oct - 10:32

I'm not sure I get your point here anu.

He was injured beforehand, got hit again (but not in the same place) prior to yesterdays game, which changed nothing, and that was it.

by rich1uk Wed 26 Oct - 10:34

i didn't say he broke it yesterday , i said it was broken during the 4th ODI and then aggravated when he was hit by a ball before yesterdays game , which is what the TV pictures showed

maybe getting hit yesterday didn't do any more damage, i was going by TV pictures i dont waste my time reading twitter

by ShankyCricket Wed 26 Oct - 10:34

Fists of Fury wrote:I'm not sure I get your point here anu.

He was injured beforehand, got hit again (but not in the same place) prior to yesterdays game, which changed nothing, and that was it.

I think he got hit in exactly the same place yesterday when he was talking to the cameraman.

by anu_d Wed 26 Oct - 10:35

[quote="Stella"]Botham was a great player but talks a lot of cr.p

sorry but I will put more faith in Botham.....hired profssionally by major network to report FACTS...then a random poster on this forum
[quote]

by rich1uk Wed 26 Oct - 10:36

Fists of Fury wrote:I'm not sure I get your point here anu.

He was injured beforehand, got hit again (but not in the same place) prior to yesterdays game, which changed nothing, and that was it.

exactly

the fact that what happened yesterday didn't make it any worse actually makes anu's supposition that he is faking an inury to avoid playing under swann as captain as if the injury was bad enough to stop him playing he wouldn't have still been with the squad yesterday to get hit again , he would have already been on his way home

by rich1uk Wed 26 Oct - 10:37

[quote="anu_d"][quote="Stella"]Botham was a great player but talks a lot of cr.p

sorry but I will put more faith in Botham.....hired profssionally by major network to report FACTS...then a random poster on this forum

and i'll put more faith in my own interpretation of what has happened than anything that someone with your reputation towards england and english cricket might think

by Stella Wed 26 Oct - 10:37

[quote="anu_d"][quote="Stella"]Botham was a great player but talks a lot of cr.p

sorry but I will put more faith in Botham.....hired profssionally by major network to report FACTS...then a random poster on this forum

That's fair enough but I take it you get what I'm saying?

by anu_d Wed 26 Oct - 10:37

why speculate when KP is CLEARLY explaining the situation underlined

England’s spin-bowling coach Mushtaq Ahmed failed to take the ball cleanly from an unknown fielder’s throw, merely deflecting into Pietersen’s path. Although reports on Tuesday said the ball hit him on his problematic left thumb, he denied it on Twitter, saying: “I broke my thumb on Sunday in the game in Mumbai. NOT today as reported pre-game!! The ball that hit me today hit my hand & NOT my thumb

by **Fists of Fury** Wed 26 Oct - 10:38

Shanky, it didn't hit the same place though, KP has said this himself.

I get the feeling this is being blown way out of proportion, do you not remember KP leaving the field during the 4th ODI after taking a hit on the thumb? That was what caused it, the ball incident yesterday is totally and utterly irrelevant.

by rich1uk Wed 26 Oct - 10:40

anu_d wrote:why speculate when KP is CLEARLY explaining the situation underlined

England’s spin-bowling coach Mushtaq Ahmed failed to take the ball cleanly from an unknown fielder’s throw, merely deflecting into Pietersen’s path. Although reports on Tuesday said the ball hit him on his problematic left thumb, he denied it on Twitter, saying: “I broke my thumb on Sunday in the game in Mumbai. NOT today as reported pre-game!! The ball that hit me today hit my hand & NOT my thumb

and so what ?

what does that have to do with your statement that you think he is faking an injury to avoid having to play in the t20 with swann as captain

or is this just you trying to change the subject after being proven wrong as usual ?

by anu_d Wed 26 Oct - 10:42

that media is reporting something
and naming it from an unknown fielder in practise

and than instead of team management clarifying....KP is having to come out in social media to DENY and explain his POV......will obviously give rise ot more speculation.

Ideally team management or spokeman should be doing the explaining

by msp83 Wed 26 Oct - 10:47

I hate to see this, 2 of my most favorit England cricketers, Kevin Pietersen and Graeme Swann involved in this. From whatever I've watched on field, the dressing room doesn't seem very happy. Swann's comments on Pietersen and others didn't help, but more importantly the results in the ODI series just stoked it further. Had England been winning, the players would have been in a better frame of mind to sort things among themselves.
Guess the coach will have to play a significant role here, the players on themselves may not be able to get through this, there has to be some cool hands guiding them.
But all said and done, I don't think it deserve all the media hype that it is getting at the moment.

by ShankyCricket Wed 26 Oct - 10:49

msp83 wrote:I hate to see this, 2 of my most favorit England cricketers, Kevin Pietersen and Graeme Swann involved in this. From whatever I've watched on field, the dressing room doesn't seem very happy. Swann's comments on Pietersen and others didn't help, but more importantly the results in the ODI series just stoked it further. Had England been winning, the players would have been in a better frame of mind to sort things among themselves.
Guess the coach will have to play a significant role here, the players on themselves may not be able to get through this, there has to be some cool hands guiding them.
But all said and done, I don't think it deserve all the media hype that it is getting at the moment.

Couldnt agree more

by **Fists of Fury** Wed 26 Oct - 10:54

I'd rather hear it from the horses mouth so to speak, rather than some corporate buffoon that is only intent on spinning a web of deceit and covering their own backsides.

by ShankyCricket Wed 26 Oct - 10:56

Fists of Fury wrote:I'd rather hear it from the horses mouth so to speak, rather than some corporate buffoon that is only intent on spinning a web of deceit and covering their own backsides.

by liverbnz Wed 26 Oct - 10:57

What did Swann have to say on KP and Patel? I take it he has written a book?

by **Fists of Fury** Wed 26 Oct - 11:19

He basically said KP wasn't captaincy material, and Patel is a fat waste of space.

by Stella Wed 26 Oct - 11:21

Fists of Fury wrote:He basically said KP wasn't captaincy material, and Patel is a fat waste of space.

One out of two ain't bad but why write a book now?

by liverbnz Wed 26 Oct - 12:05

Fists of Fury wrote:He basically said KP wasn't captaincy material, and Patel is a fat waste of space.

Well depending on the context it would be no surprise if people in the England dressing room were feeling a little off with Swann. What good did he think comments like that would do?

by ShankyCricket Wed 26 Oct - 12:42

I dont know what he exactly said about Patel but if he calls a teammate "a fatt waste of space" then thats an absolutely terrible thing to say for team morale and Swann should be dropped form the team.I am not a Patel fan.In fact,I am a Swann fan but Swanny has got no right to make such comments.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 26 Oct - 12:42

The thumb conspiracy is ridiculous, theres even video footgae of KP being hit on the already broken digit and collapsing in pain. He wasnt even taking part in the drills at the time.

Whats the cause of dressing room disharmony though ...is it comments made or not made taken out of context on views that were hardly suprising anyway ... or is it that the performaces of the field are so bad and that the players diodnt want to be on this tour in the first place?
Biut of chicken and egg, and the two feeding into each other here? We didnt hear about this whne England were winning...but we did hear about it from the Indians when they were losing. Now the roles are reversed theres no sign of Indian disharmony.
Strikes me that these pointless ODI series arent a good idea for team morale and the general mood of players, especially when they are sent out to difficult places to take a pasting form a much more switched on team.

I have no doubt there is some dressing room disharmony, Id be shocked if there wasnt after some of the performances on this tour. How much one is an open question.

by Mad for Chelsea Wed 26 Oct - 13:30

Three factors I think could be affecting dressing room morale:

1. Swann's comments were probably not much appreciated. It was a silly move to bring out the book now, but hey, Swann can be like that.

2. The defeats. No side likes losing, and ultimately when they lose this tends to affect them. See Aus in 05 and India last summer.

3. They're sick of the sight of each other having played so much cricket in the last few months, and basically spent a lot of time together. Give them ten weeks apart and they'll be much happier again Very Happy

The Pietersen thing is irrelvant. anu, please stop this mindless England bashing, it's annoying, and exactly what posters came on here to avoid. Understand that it's Botham's job to sell, and that yes, he talks a lot of rubbish sometimes. Great player, yes. Great pundit, nope.

by Leff Wed 26 Oct - 13:54

Fists of Fury wrote:He basically said KP wasn't captaincy material, and Patel is a fat waste of space.

Did Swann really call Patel a "fat waste of space?"

by **Fists of Fury** Wed 26 Oct - 13:57

Not in those words, that was just a summary, but he was certainly very cutting.

by Leff Wed 26 Oct - 14:08

I think it's utterly inappropriate to make such comments directed at your current teammates.

Swann didn't bowl much better than Patel in the ODI series in India. Patel, at least, contributed with the bat.

by anu_d Wed 26 Oct - 14:35

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:
Fists of Fury wrote:I'd rather hear it from the horses mouth so to speak, rather than some corporate buffoon that is only intent on spinning a web of deceit and covering their own backsides.

we all read and hear from the "experts"...that is why they sell.
Ha Ha ....It's inappropriate to expect experts to say all the time only the things you would like to hear.

Re: from Horses mouth......well we have heard what Swann had to say about his team mates
and that those words are in his book.

and we cannot discount either the news, opinion or analyses coming from "experts". They are generally with some to a lot of substance and not complete Bull.s**T

if it was only validated, notarized by the court black and white documents only...there woudn't be any discussion forums either Smile

by Guest Wed 26 Oct - 20:47

Andy Flower has said that there will be changes in the middle order, for the series against Pakistan. I for one, would like to see more leadership on the field. Cook dosent look he inspires players one bit. Swanny and KP do more IMO.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 27 Oct - 11:46

Fists of Fury wrote:Not in those words, that was just a summary, but he was certainly very cutting.

That probably makes him unique amongst the British public, Im pretty sure the rest of us have called Patel fat and useless at some time.

by **Fists of Fury** Thu 27 Oct - 11:48

Yep, I know I have!

by Guest Thu 27 Oct - 12:01

i think all of us have called samit patel fat and useless at some point, but his team mate shouldnt be saying it in public or on the pitch IMO

by Stella Thu 27 Oct - 12:02

cricketfan90 wrote:i think all of us have called samit patel fat and useless at some point, but his team mate shouldnt be saying it in public or on the pitch IMO

Certainly not in public.

I think all of us have called a team mate some word or another on the pitch, it happens.

by ShankyCricket Thu 27 Oct - 12:16

Totally agree with CF.it is not right for a player to call a teammate "a fat waste of space".How can they appoint such a guy as T20 captain who passes derogatory comments on his teammates?

by Leff Thu 27 Oct - 13:08

It's never appropriate to make demeaning and derogatory comments at a current teammate. As fans, we can say many things and such comments could come from the media, but it's definitely inappropriate for players to do so.

This kind of behaviour is a way of life for Pakstan cricketers, but rather unusual for the England team.

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