Heineken Cup: Pool 1

Fans from all corners of Europe absolutely love the Heineken Cup. I will be doing just a brief preview of the European competition pool by pool with fans giving their opinion on who will top the pool, get runners-up spot and who will get absolutely tonked. On the eleventh of November the competition will officially start, two-time winners Leinster are the current holders.

Pool one - arguably a pool of death with two previous Heineken Cup winners and no whipping boys:
Castres Olympique
Munster Rugby
Northampton Saints
Scarlets

Munster are my pick to top the pool, not much explanation needed why but I'll try anyway. Munster first won this competition in 2005 beating Biarritz in the final and again in 2008, beating Toulouse in that final. It came after four years of hurt, hurt by falling just short at the knock-out stages. In the first three years of the competition Munster failed to get out of their pool but ever since have enjoyed over a decade of dominance. 2011 saw them not make the knock-out stages for the first time in 13 years. They have one of the most experienced teams in the competition and will be bolstered by new signgins BJ Botha and ROG's fly-half successor Ian Keatley who has been having a great first season with his new team. Current holders of the Celtic League trophy and have shown some good form without their top Ireland players, when at full strength the European Giants will go into this competition with a "we have a point to prove" attitude and be very hard to halt.

The Saints to grabb the runners-up spot. They were last years losing finalists having been impressively unbeaten up until that point and previously won the competition in 2000 defeating guess who.... Munster! More recently, Saints have won the European Challenge cup in 2008 and the LV Cup in 2010 so a winning mentality is nothing new to these guys. Mallinder has put some hard work into building the team and guys have rosen through the club to become first choice England internationals in their positions; most notably of these are Courtney Lawes, Chris Ashton and Ben Foden. Also recently they have battled their main pool rivals in this competition. In 2010 these two teams faced each other three times in this competition with each getting one pool victory over the other. However Saints lost in a convincing fashion in the quarter final after having to travel away to the fortress of pool winners Munster. Northampton suffered with international call-ups so have not faired too well in the English Premiership so far. The returning internationals will be eager to help their team get back to the highest heights with the Heino being the ideal opportunity for this.

The Scarlets. A young exciting team full of attacking threat but lacking in pedigree and go forward power. Can be the most exciting team to watch when on the front foot but also the most frustrating on the back foot. Their most recent successful run in this competition came in 2007 when reaching the semi-finals after topping their pool in style and beating the then current holders Munster in the quarters. Prior to this they made the KO stages in 2004. Following on from 2007 a tough financial situation along with the signings of dross players and the sacking of coaches lead the Region to suffer and become whipping boys to the powerhouse teams of this competiton. They've had some heavy defeats handed to them both home and away. Head Coach Nigel Davies has since had to recruit from within with it finally starting to pay off. The Scarlets have the potential to win all of their home games but it is unlikely, I also see their leaky defence leading to heavy defeats away from home to Munster and Northampton; LBP's in these fixtures will be seen as a good result for the Scarlets. In my opinion they are now strong and experienced enough to no longer being whipping boys for any big team. Third/Fourth place pool finish (i'm un-decided).

Castres Olympique, I'm a little unsure of. If I remember rightly they're just typical French, can be exceptional in France but always likely to lose away from home. They may have won the challenge cup in 2003 albeit called the Shield at the time. As far as I am aware it is the second year back in the competition after having to fight their way back into the top 6/7 of the Top 14. They finished third in their pool last year behind Saints and Cardiff; they gave a very good account of themselves in Franklins Gardens and were unlucky not to come away with the win. The fact that they currently sit 3rd in one of the toughest rugby competitions shows that they are to be reckoned with. They're lacking in internationals and big game experience but have recruited well enough to challenge the other three teams. In my opinion the other three teams will target Castres as the potential 'double' - basically doing the double over them in the pool stages. Third/Fourth place pool finish (i'm un-decided).

Morg's pick: Munster will win pool one with the most wins and points, Northampton in a close second place with both teams progressing to the knock-out stages. Munsters quality and experience can see them all the way to the final. Runners-up Northampton may not do so well away from home but will again give a very good account of themselves and still have the potential to reach the final. Who are your picks for pool one folks?

This is a very tough pool, and one that I can't see two teams getting out of. At present due to World Cup abstractions for Munster, Saints and Scarlets, it's difficult to know who is going to hit the ground running in a fortnights time.

If the Scarlets can get off to a good start against Castres first up, I fancy them as the dark horses to sneak this pool.

Some very good points, valid points that I missed. I still don't believe the Scarlets will top the pool though.

A lot of the Scarlets defensive problems last season came from either individual errors, or the fact that Regan King was at times a revolving door in midfield. A midfield of Jon Davies and Scott Williams will be a lot more solid, and Priestland showed for Wales in the World Cup that he is a decent enough defender at 10. Add in George North out wide and I think they will have enough solidity to cope, and coupled with their obvious attacking threat I think this will make them a very dangerous opponent.

Again you make valid/lucid points on the matter. I remember on that old pit (BBC 606) you would get absolutely slated for even suggesting that about Regan King, depsite it being very true at the time. Back-up centre Maule is also a very solid defender and Adam Warren has shown his class after being given the opportunity so early in his career. I am starting to see more possitively already. The power of their front 5 being tested in the scrums and mauls should still leave much cause for concern. The top teams in Europe excel in this area.

Ozzy there is no doubt that Scarlets have the potential and are a dangerous opponent. You rate them highly but I can't help but think it's just through witnessing your team go down to them. They just have a good record over London Irish; I've watched them for years and seen them be made to look like a pub team in defence. It concerns me, but should concern Scarlet fans more. Things will be a lot clearer in their opening pool game against the French.

In the first three years of the competition Munster failed to get out of their pool but ever since have never not made the knock-out stages.

Slight rewriting of the 2011 competition?

Last season Scarlets were seriously outmuscled by Leicester, up front and in teh backs. They are capable of scoring tries, but will also leak a lot. I am interested to see whether Priestland is at 10 or 15, and thus what role Stephen Jones has.


At first glance I woudl say that Munster, Saints and Castres will probably win their home fixtures - with the pool winner being whoever can get the most from their trip to Parc Y Scarlets.

A couple of points. Castres are doing very very well in the French Top 14. They may decide to take this very seriously for the first 2 matches. They have Scarlets away first up. Scarlets really need to win that game. Munster might have a difficult time of it if that happens in that away game against Castres.

Also I think way to much is being made of the Scarlets 8 being to weak. There is a marked improvement in the Forwards already this season since they brough Garrin Jenkins in as a forwards coach. Potentially they can field the biggest front 5 of them all if they so choose. Timani and Reed in the second row at 19 stone each wont be easily moveable. Also Rhys Thomas is playing very well at the moment at Tighthead.

So basically if Scarlets do win the opening game they go to Northampton knowing they can afford to lose, which puts all the pressure on Northampton to win if they lose to Munster (which I think they will).

In short its not totally inconceivable that Northampton could be out of the running by the second round. So if anything - for me this group is wide open. Underestimating any of the teams in here will like be that sides downfall.

Also all the people who think Form is irrelevant - confidence has a massive impact. I'm not sure Mallinder will be able to turn it around in time before the HC starts.

Should be a cracking set of games at Group stage and I'm not sure I can call the out right winner of this pool.

I always find it funny when the HC rolls around, the Scarlets get written off as the third placed team in a pool that the first and second place sides will progress from. Yet for the last two seasons we have had a major impact in the pool. Two years ago we made London Irish look like a bunch of fools, and last season we were humped by sitting at the top of the table going into the final to rounds.

Personally I think that Munster will win this group, but I don't think that there are going to be too many points between first and third place in the group. I would expect the winners to be decided by who picks up try and losing bonus points, but I wouldn't expect too many away wins in this group.

SS, you will note my caution having been bitten by your lot in not just this competition but also the LV Cup in recent years.

SS - don't mean to urine all over your comment but in the past two seasons Scarlets got absolutely humped by Leinster twice, it was painful to watch they were that bad. Last season you got annihilated by Leciester and Perpignan; scored 4 tries at home to Perp but also conceded 5. That's not a major impact in the pool. You've shown you can compete, this year could be different and I hope it is.

As for the pack they haven't had a test yet; and if that's true about Reed then how did he pack on so much weight???

LondonTiger wrote:
Slight rewriting of the 2011 competition?

Last season Scarlets were seriously outmuscled by Leicester, up front and in teh backs. They are capable of scoring tries, but will also leak a lot. I am interested to see whether Priestland is at 10 or 15, and thus what role Stephen Jones has.

What are you getting at?

Hopefully Priestland at 10 with Jones on the bench. They should use more of a specialist at 15, although Dan Evans was formerly a 10 he's seen as the specialist full back. Priestland can always move back to that position with Jones to come on if needs be. They certainly will not be short of class in the backline. Remember these guys are experienced internationals now.

Have to agree only one team will come out of this group. Each team is going to take points off each other, the relative strength of all four teams means that bonus points are going to be few and far between. As has been the case most of the time, the two best runners-up will come from the groups with the Italian teams.

Of the four in Pool 1, very difficult to call as who gets top spot. Munster has the tradition, good stasrt to Pro 12 but recent hiccups and
there are weaknesses in their line up, notably in the back row and midfield. Northampton have got a poor start in their league, Castres got a good start in Top 14, Scarlets poor start to Pro 12 - all four teams will have players coming back from RWC.

If forced to make a call, go for Munster but won't be at all surprised if one of the others pips them

brenno - I don't believe Castres to have any players returning from the world cup? Could be a contributing factor to why they are in the top 4 of the Top 14.

I think Munster and Northamptons ability to score lots of points will see them through. Pool 4 has an Italian team but I believe just the one team shall progress from that pool. If I have to pick one, then it's cleary Munster.

Saints haven't really been racking up the points so far this season, and will need their returning internationals to gel back in quickly. This weekends fixture against Newcastle may give us a bit of an insight into where they're at, as if they struggle at all against what is the worst side in the AP, then they may find it difficult to step up to the level required to go to Thomond Park and win in round one.

morgannwg, are you going to be doing these for the other pools?

I will try and get pool two done tonight or tomorrow. I don't have much work to do so should be able to finish all the pools before round one seeing as I have plenty of free time. This week has been a slow one, I have a 'reading week' but don't have much to read. Nor can I go out and play or train because of a swollen knee (suffered an injury identical to the manner in which Cruden did his).

Morgannwg wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:
Slight rewriting of the 2011 competition?

What are you getting at?

Munster did not make the 1/4 finals last season - you stated :

In the first three years of the competition Munster failed to get out of their pool but ever since have never not made the knock-out stages.

I've said it on other threads I am more wary of Scarlets and Castres than I am about Saints. I think Castres will travel badly if stereotyping French sides are anything to go by. But its a tough pool.

LondonTiger wrote:Munster did not make the 1/4 finals last season - you stated :

You are correct. It has been ammended.

Castres is on 7 wins in row in top 14 (including one against toulouse). that said they are one of the less impacted by RWC amongst the top teams. The only real change from last year team are the Sh and Fh where they lose the experienced Tillous-Borde and McIntyre which are replaced by Tales (from la rochelle) and Kockott ( SA player that used to play for sharks a while ago). they also signed max evans. so far its seems to be like a good move.
at the moment they dont have many injured players and key players like Teulet and forestier are making their come back .
reckon that if they get a good result away at scarlet, they would be serious contender for topping up the pool. that is the key and Castres is always a benchmark for other teams : to be serious about the HEC, you have to beat them.

Rory Kockott looked fantastic playing against the Lions. I don't think he could make the Bok team though in part due to the quota system?

whocares, I appreciate your french perspective on this! Keep an eye out for the articles on the remaining pools.

Morgannwg - Two seasons ago London Irish beat Leinster in Dublin in the openning round of the HC, they were being talked of as favourites to win the group, and touted, by some, as tournament winners. They then lost to the Scarlets (home and away) and ended up finishing third in the pool. So personally I would call that a major impact in the group.

Last season the Scarlets put a bonus point victory in against USAP at home, and a then hit a major tigh-head crisis (losing Rhys Thomas, Deacon Manu and Peter Edwards) where we had to call upon the services of a teen playing in the semi-pros. We were almost in a postion where we would have had to have feilded only 14 men in some of the HC matches. Yet even giving the extreme cercumstances we still lead the pool after the first four rounds.

I am not saying that we are going to pummle everyone in the pool and breeze into the final. What I am saying (and have for the last few seasons) is that people write the Scarlets off before the tournament starts as fodder for the big boys, however it is not going to be that easy.

Oz - Sorry mate I didn't mean any disrespect to your lot. The Scarlets have been fortunate to have some sort of hoodoo over your lot recently, I guess we will see if the Scarlets still do in January.

SS, no offence taken by me mate, you boys have turned us over repeatedly in recent seasons, and it is now up to us to up our game. Thanks for sending Shingler our way as well, he looks a decent prospect, has been doing well for us so far this season.

Oz - for teh money your paying the boy he should be on playing well. Just don't go poaching any more this time.

I have no idea what money he is on to be honest, but as long as he continues to play well for us that is all that matters. Did we not get Siggery from you as well?

SS - when are you playing London Irish? And what do you think your first choice front 5 will be then if you see them being better than fodder for the big boys? I was not saying you were fodder btw, just said that a team like Munster had the potential to get 5 points from you up there.

Morgannwg - I think what SS was saying was just because Munster (or Leicester) have the ability to get 5 points out of us, we also have the ability to beat them, and we also have the ability to get enough points to have a major bearing on the groups. We did that 2 seasons ago by beating the group favs home and away, and also last year we beat Perpingan home and away (with a 4th choice teenage prop), and if we'd beaten Leicester we would have gone through. So we have an impact, and aren't (at least in the last 2 years) just making up the numbers and expected to finish bottom and come within a LBP of teams.

By the way i'm not saying I in anyway expect us to top the group, sweeping everyone out of our path - but I do expect us to get at least 2 wins and a few LBP

Morgannwg wrote:Rory Kockott looked fantastic playing against the Lions. I don't think he could make the Bok team though in part due to the quota system?

whocares, I appreciate your french perspective on this! Keep an eye out for the articles on the remaining pools.

wil definitely keep an eye on those , specially as am in the sportsguru HC competition now

Morg - we play them in the LV= Last weekend of Jan at PYS. Smirnoff pretty much summed up what I meant with regards to not being the whipping boys.

I would expect the Scarlets first choice front five to be something like Iestyn Thomas, Matthew Rees, Rhys Thomas. Lou Reed, Aaron Shingler. Then with the likes of Ken Owens, Phil John and Sione Timani on the bench.

SS - do you expect them to choose Shingler over Timani? I thought Timani looked really good against the Blues (didn't see him against Leicesters scratch side). I always considered Shingler a flanker and used more as an emergency lock as we didn't have anyone better (and Nige not liking Welch).

By the way do you know when our new wingers will be coming to the club? as it will be very handy to have him covering the back 3 positions and centre

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Morgannwg - I think what SS was saying was just because Munster (or Leicester) have the ability to get 5 points out of us, we also have the ability to beat them, and we also have the ability to get enough points to have a major bearing on the groups. We did that 2 seasons ago by beating the group favs home and away, and also last year we beat Perpingan home and away (with a 4th choice teenage prop), and if we'd beaten Leicester we would have gone through. So we have an impact, and aren't (at least in the last 2 years) just making up the numbers and expected to finish bottom and come within a LBP of teams.

By the way i'm not saying I in anyway expect us to top the group, sweeping everyone out of our path - but I do expect us to get at least 2 wins and a few LBP

You only beat Perpignan at home. You got demolished away. Now just because I've said that Munster/Northampton have the best chance of qualifying it doesn't mean I expect Scarlets to finish bottom. I implied that they'd likely finish behind these two teams(thrid or fourth). They are capable like you say, I think this will be an important year for the team because they are now an experienced team.

Oops- soz thats a bit of a mistake.of course they only beat them at home. In my defence I was doin a few different things at the same time in work .must have been thinkin of l irish...


In regards to the group I agree munster are favs but if results go our way u never know, 2nd is def not out f reach anyway

Smirnoff they are capable, good luck . You need Priestland back ASAP. Also, will Jon Davies be going back to 12 with Scott Williams outside him, or other way around?

Morgan you seriously think is a pool of death? Evidently didnt see pool 2 and 3 last season.

Let's be realistic here it's Saints vs Munster for top spot IMO. Castres and Scarlets will get a shock result here or there but lack what it takes to progress to the knockout stages IMO.

Scarlets lack the grunt and firepower in the pack to be a consistent threat. Good backs arent enough. Castres are arguably the weakest French side in the competition but still have a decent pack. Will focus on the French league as they have in the last 2 seasons.

I think all six are each a pool of death. I also said "arguably" meaning that whether it was a pool of death is up for debate.

Fair enough I personally think for once all pools are fairly well balanced. Obviously slight differences but less lopsided than last season. No pool of death IMO.

I couldn't have picked a better pool for my side. It is the best possible we could have in regards of everything.

The worldcup hangover effect will also be an interesting subplot.

Smirnoff - yeah I see Shingler as first choice and I think Timani will be used the same as Jonny F, LV= Cup and bench warming.

Morannwg - I may have been a bit touchy yesterday. I think it will be either Jon or Scott at 12 with Maule at 13 personally. And I would not be suprised to see Priestland stepping back to fullback on a few occations either.

Saints to win this group. They are still getting to mental-grips with the Final last year. One they thought they had in the bag. That experience will burn them to win this group and do well in the knockouts. Munster not as strong anymore. European tradition or not. Plenty of grunt. Not enough firepower at the high-end. This is when they normally confound - in the HC. But teams have sussed them out now. See Quins in impregnable Thomond last year - Amlin SF's. Castres, flying high in the TOP14, can beat any team in it and may sneak 2nd. It all depends on their priorities this year. As with all the French teams in the HC - with the exception of Toulouse and ASM.

Saints. And if the rest don't cancel each other out - then, an ever-improving Scarlets, with Priestland running the show, as RU for me. If indeed, the RU has enough points to make it.

Excellent article btw.

Have to agree with Mr. Gibson. I think Saints would be pre-tournament favourites to take this pool. But this is a great pool and will be tough to win.

Saints are a team which have improved year on year since promotion. And their slow start in the AP is due to having so many of their key young players out on RWC duty. Once they gain their stride, they will be tough. Solid up front, wily vets in the back row, live wire scrum-half, and finishers in the backs. And a very good management team.

Munster have been so good for so long and can win matches, it seems, simply by old habit. But they really haven't improved. I think they have lost a little off the top and can be undone this season. But teams would still need to be very good to do so.

Castres are tough to call. They are doing well now, but is that due to other teams being weaker during the RWC? I think they need a few bigger names, but they can do well.

Scarlets are a team on the rise. But methinks they are still steps behind the others. Give 'em a year or two and they might be something. As it is, I would be surprised if they don't have at least two wins and maybe one on the road. it will be exciting to see them grow in the next few years.

Glad Priestland is back for the Scarlets game against Castres and looking foward to a good game - hopefully the Scarlets pack can front up and we can use home advantage to get a win.

Thought I'd post on this thread to avoid the Castresrophy of puns on the other thread.

Is that particular live game not being aired Smirnoff? Couldn't find it on the Sky planner. Can't believe they wouldn't aire one of the most entertaining teams.

I'm not sure as I haven't looked to be honest as I'm more than likely to go down. I'd be suprised if it wasn't on TV somewhere but then again I think the Ospreys and Blues are usually picked up 1st (though with the Blues on Fri it is a bit strange)

All games, times, tv stations, yada, yada here.
https://www.606v2.com/t6249-penfro-s-live-tv-guide-for-the-next-few-days-updated-10-11-11-13-03

Cheers for that Gibson (and Penfro) there's no mention of the Scarlets game on there so it seems that it's not on - typical

Good win for Scarlets and close match between Munster and Northampton makes the group a bit more interesting. Still think Scarlets will struggle to pick up enough wins to qualify - just hope we pick up enough to get a better seeding next year. Looks like it might be a 2 way between Munster nad Northampton now, but Castres have a fearsome pack though

Priest,
Believe me. This is the Heino. All sorts of strange results are going to come in the Pools. They always do. Every year.
It's how teams react to a loss or win that really kicks in. Even as early as the 2nd Round, you can be all but out of it. Its vicious. Mini battles in every pool.
I fancy Scarlets (my fav Cymru team) for a close 2nd place in that one. Need some luck.

Games today were unreal. HC at its best. Feic the 6-N and the RWC. This is great rugby. Love the HC. Just. Phhhoking. Love it.

if the scarlet pack can front up their backs are a match for anyone, and im from neath

I thought people from Neath had more empathy with Llanelli than Swansea at the moment!

It would be nice to have some foward dominance over some of the big sides for once - as we do get that quite a few times in the Pro12. I can't wait til the backs start clicking and we have Turnbull and McGog back to win us turnovers.

you both wanted rid of us