Rebuilding the Northern (English) Stronghold

Suggestions have been made in the recent past that the game in the north is dying; I personally think this is rubbish. The grassroots game is still very strong and the North still supplies the England team with many players. But the game is suffering at the professional level with low crowds and talented young players hemorrhaging south.

I believe that players (even local ones) look at the low crowds, league position and relative lack of ambition and decide that the clubs aren’t vibrant or glamorous for them. However, I believe the clubs can counter this by linking themselves to the history of their respective counties. I think Sale have recognised this and are trying to open the greater Lancashire market by playing some games at the Reebok stadium. The proposed move further into Manchester to share with Salford City Reds could also reinforce this idea. Leeds could do the same thing, but with Yorkshire. As I wrote on another thread, it may seem contrived, but if I was in charge of the clubs I be looking to change their names to Lancashire Sharks and Yorkshire Carnegie and market the hell out of that angle. I’m open to suggestions about Newcastle, I’d suggest just playing a better standard of rugby would help a lot.

I’m not unrealistic, I understand the competition from football and that RL fans wouldn’t touch Union with a bargepole. But put this in perspective, Lancashire (including Manchester and Liverpool 5 million+) and Yorkshire (5 million) have a bigger population than both Scotland and Ireland. The North-East England has a population of 2.5m, so it’s not like there isn’t a market out there too. I believe Newcastle need to do everything they can to push themselves to the N.E. as a whole.

I believe this could all be helped by getting the RFU to spread some England games out from Twickenham. Maybe play a big game each at Old Trafford and St James Park. Perhaps the return of a Northern representative team to play touring sides in medium size venues such as:

Preston, Deepdale (23,000)
Doncaster, Keepmoat Stadium (15,000)
Darlington, The Darlington Arena (25,000)
Bolton, Reebok Stadiun (28,000)
Hull, KC Stadium (24,000)
Huddersfield, Galpharm Stadium (24,500)

Then if it takes off move to some of the bigger stadiums in the region.

I've said previously that it was a real shame the Churchill Cup didn't go north. Would have given Union up there a shot in the arm. Maybe the Saxons should hold games up north against Scotland A, Ireland A and maybe one or two of the Eastern European first teams in the summer.

I think that the likes of Sale and Leeds (Rotherham as well) don't market themselves as well as they could. They really need to embody their region more and agree with the re-branding as well touring some of the nearby cities to tempt more people in (Sale did well at Bolton and the Salford idea is a good one).

I've always though Newcastle Falcons seem to be based to much in Newcastle where it's all about football and could do with branching out into the surrounding countryside where rugby is played. Tigers recruit largely not from the city but from towns like Loughborough, Syston, Oadby etc and a lot of the fans travel to the city not from within it.

Sorry though I'd wandered onto the rugby league board by mistake there....

roddersm wrote:Sorry though I'd wandered onto the rugby league board by mistake there....

Why I oughta! Thats right, you'd better run!

I fully agree with you about spreading some of the England games around. The AI game against whoever the 'smaller' team is would be a good place to start and Old Trafford/ St James's park would be perfect I would think. Make the tickets affordable (something the RFU struggles with!) and try and get kids along to get them hooked.

You would think this is especially important with the RWC in 4 years time as there will be plenty of games well away from Twickers so it would be good to get people excited about international rugby outside of SW London. This sort of forward planning and thinking wouldnt really fit in with the current RFU policies however, so I wont expect much.

The point about Sale and Leeds expandign their horizons is a good one I think. There are certain counties in England which encourage local pride and Yorkshire is probably top of the list. Cornish Pirates have rebranded successfully away from just being Penzance and a similar idea should be possible.

The issue of course is that whilst in Cornwall there are no other top level sports teams, in Yorkshire there are plenty, including Doncaster and Rotherham, who could both equally claim to be 'the Yorkshire' team. I dont know how you get around that issue, although Leeds are clearly the club the RFU wants to succeed given that they have a regional academy.

The falcons recruit quite a number of youngsters from Cumbria and over the borders...so we do represent a wider area than just newcastle...but in many peoples eyes its "Newcastle".

Newcastle are just in a difficult situation that football is top dog. I also dont think the location of KP is great. I know first hand whilst i go to every game (near enough anyway) ive tried to get some of my mates to go and they say "ahh KP is a right chore to get to..." etc etc
Maybe.....maybe not...

I like the idea of a Northern team to face touring sides...and representative rugby at St james etc... would be a huge boost. Even as you say the Saxons come up and play some games.

I can only see us going down this season...and i think we will struggle to get back up.....

Others might disagree but i think this will be a big blow for English rugby. To lose a club that covers a big chunk of its northern area....and has a well recognised accademy programme.....

GeordieFalcon wrote:The falcons recruit quite a number of youngsters from Cumbria and over the borders...so we do represent a wider area than just newcastle...but in many peoples eyes its "Newcastle".

Newcastle are just in a difficult situation that football is top dog. I also dont think the location of KP is great. I know first hand whilst i go to every game (near enough anyway) ive tried to get some of my mates to go and they say "ahh KP is a right chore to get to..." etc etc
Maybe.....maybe not...

I like the idea of a Northern team to face touring sides...and representative rugby at St james etc... would be a huge boost. Even as you say the Saxons come up and play some games.

I can only see us going down this season...and i think we will struggle to get back up.....

Others might disagree but i think this will be a big blow for English rugby. To lose a club that covers a big chunk of its northern area....and has a well recognised accademy programme.....

Yeah, I'm aware of that one . One of the reason's I became a Falcon's supporter (aside from family ties and that) is that Falcons used to invite my old rugby club up to Kingston park for tournaments against the likes of Morpeth and Melrose. The thing about Cumbria is though, you can't really rely on fans to get over to Newcastle. There is a small population and the roads are terrible. KP does seem like a pain to get to, but what's the alternative? Aside from playing at St James' is there anywhere else the club could go?

Wheres your local club Cumbrian....

I had the pleasure / misfortune (delete as appropriate) of spending a year working in Cockermouth...at least i enjoyed the Jennings Ale...

"KP does seem like a pain to get to, but what's the alternative? Aside from playing at St James' is there anywhere else the club could go?."

In all honesty i dont think there is...unless they decide to ground share with another club like Northern or such....but cant see it happening.

GeordieFalcon wrote: Wheres your local club Cumbrian....

I had the pleasure / misfortune (delete as appropriate) of spending a year working in Cockermouth...at least i enjoyed the Jennings Ale...

Workington Zebras, were my old team. Cockermouth eh? Got to meet plenty of southerners doctors and retirees then?

Jennings, can be a bit hit and miss. But whenever I see it in a pub down here I am forced to buy it! Like a bit of the ald Snecklifter every now and then though.

GeordieFalcon wrote:"KP does seem like a pain to get to, but what's the alternative? Aside from playing at St James' is there anywhere else the club could go?."

In all honesty i dont think there is...unless they decide to ground share with another club like Northern or such....but cant see it happening.

Don't worry, I'll win the Euro lottery, gamble on the stock market, become hugely rich and build a stadium in the centre of Newcastle.

To be fair KP isn't that hard to get to. If it was the ridiculously sized tesco wouldn't do very well. The metro runs up there, which means you can actually get there directly from town (and even from Sunderland)

I don't know why the crowds are so low, because when I lived there the local grass roots teams all seemed to be thriving. I guess the trouble is that most people who play on a Saturday aren't allowed time off from home for a game on the Friday an are playing when games are on the Saturday. Also, as you say, te team doing better would help a lot too...

How's this for an idea: Promote Leeds and Bristol (yep I'm biased) then seal off the league so teams can grow and not have to worry about relegation. Keep two places open for Rotherham (a Premiership team not so long ago), Doncaster or Cornish Pirates, subject to them meeting the criteria in three/five years time.

Once those teams are up it's a closed shop. Tough on London Welsh and Bedford I know, but I think it's better to prioritise the game in the North, down in Cornwall (a real hotbed) and Bristol (a team which already meets the Premiership criteria, apart from being cack). Split your (then) 16 teams into two conferences of eight. They play each other home and away, top four from each go straight into quarter, semi finals etc.

Also, get Leeds etc working closer with the League clubs (something I'd like to see happening across the board in English Union and League).

You can then have stable, secure clubs, as well as reducing the number of games English players have to play (do away with LV as well).

Its not that hard to get to...its just a faff on - changing metros etc...unlike st james which is rediculously easy.

Cumbrian wrote:
As I wrote on another thread, it may seem contrived, but if I was in charge of the clubs I be looking to change their names to Lancashire Sharks and Yorkshire Carnegie and market the hell out of that angle.

Thats easly said but what about the fans in Leeds and Sale who like the city in the name
look waht happened Newport Gwent Dragons, a mess

you could end up with Leeds Yorkshire Carnegie, and Sale Lancashire Sharks.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Its not that hard to get to...its just a faff on - changing metros etc...unlike st james which is rediculously easy.

Not really a fair comparison though is it? The city is built around St James! It's like in old cities where the cathedral was at the top and town down below except the cathedral is now the football stadium. KP isn't any harder to get to than many other stadia in the league, so while I agree it can be a bit of a faff it's not like it is really the reason the crowds aren't great. I don't think moving is going to help as there is no way they will get a place in the middle of the city.

Northern Internationals is a great idea though. Trying to convince some of the ras in Jesmond to give the club some of their dad's money by coming to a game might be fruitful too. It's literally a few stops away.

I don't think Newcastle should change their name as there is not a suitable one really. The others could also go down that angle of marketing to the county but without changing their names.

Kingshu wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:
As I wrote on another thread, it may seem contrived, but if I was in charge of the clubs I be looking to change their names to Lancashire Sharks and Yorkshire Carnegie and market the hell out of that angle.

Thats easly said but what about the fans in Leeds and Sale who like the city in the name
look waht happened Newport Gwent Dragons, a mess

you could end up with Leeds Yorkshire Carnegie, and Sale Lancashire Sharks.

I'm aware that I'm being horribly dismissive of the two clubs traditions and I apologise for that. However, I believe that if professional rugby union is to be maintained in the two counties, some sacrifices need to be made. Ultimately people could (and indeed a lot would) say 'Get Stuffed!' but to me, the way forward is getting people to look at them as representative sides. Teams that kids in the region can genuinely aspire to play for. The same goes for Newcastle, get people to see that there is an alternative to football and it represents their toon.

screamingaddabs wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Its not that hard to get to...its just a faff on - changing metros etc...unlike st james which is rediculously easy.

Not really a fair comparison though is it? The city is built around St James! It's like in old cities where the cathedral was at the top and town down below except the cathedral is now the football stadium. KP isn't any harder to get to than many other stadia in the league, so while I agree it can be a bit of a faff it's not like it is really the reason the crowds aren't great. I don't think moving is going to help as there is no way they will get a place in the middle of the city.

Northern Internationals is a great idea though. Trying to convince some of the ras in Jesmond to give the club some of their dad's money by coming to a game might be fruitful too. It's literally a few stops away.

I don't think Newcastle should change their name as there is not a suitable one really. The others could also go down that angle of marketing to the county but without changing their names.

True, the name change was an idea to generate publicity, but it wouldn't be particularly vital. The concept of representation was the one I was going for. I agree a name change wouldn't work for Newcastle at all though.

Bristolian wrote:How's this for an idea: Promote Leeds and Bristol (yep I'm biased) then seal off the league so teams can grow and not have to worry about relegation. Keep two places open for Rotherham (a Premiership team not so long ago), Doncaster or Cornish Pirates, subject to them meeting the criteria in three/five years time.

Once those teams are up it's a closed shop. Tough on London Welsh and Bedford I know, but I think it's better to prioritise the game in the North, down in Cornwall (a real hotbed) and Bristol (a team which already meets the Premiership criteria, apart from being cack). Split your (then) 16 teams into two conferences of eight. They play each other home and away, top four from each go straight into quarter, semi finals etc.

Also, get Leeds etc working closer with the League clubs (something I'd like to see happening across the board in English Union and League).

You can then have stable, secure clubs, as well as reducing the number of games English players have to play (do away with LV as well).

I like the idea, but a lot of people really rail against ring fencing the league. I read an article a while ago that suggested that Bristol and Leeds should be promoted and the league closed for three years. Under the plan, whilst the league was closed the RFU would offer the Championship clubs interest free loans to try and get their stadia up to scratch. Subsequently, teams would be permitted into the new Premiership, which would be split into conferences, in the way you describe. Lots of problems though, lower league teams would legitimately complain about the leg up from the RFU and although the RFU is a rich organisation, would it have the money?

formerly known as Sam wrote:I've said previously that it was a real shame the Churchill Cup didn't go north. Would have given Union up there a shot in the arm. Maybe the Saxons should hold games up north against Scotland A, Ireland A and maybe one or two of the Eastern European first teams in the summer.

I think that the likes of Sale and Leeds (Rotherham as well) don't market themselves as well as they could. They really need to embody their region more and agree with the re-branding as well touring some of the nearby cities to tempt more people in (Sale did well at Bolton and the Salford idea is a good one).

I've always though Newcastle Falcons seem to be based to much in Newcastle where it's all about football and could do with branching out into the surrounding countryside where rugby is played. Tigers recruit largely not from the city but from towns like Loughborough, Syston, Oadby etc and a lot of the fans travel to the city not from within it.

and Newcastle!

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:I've said previously that it was a real shame the Churchill Cup didn't go north. Would have given Union up there a shot in the arm. Maybe the Saxons should hold games up north against Scotland A, Ireland A and maybe one or two of the Eastern European first teams in the summer.

I think that the likes of Sale and Leeds (Rotherham as well) don't market themselves as well as they could. They really need to embody their region more and agree with the re-branding as well touring some of the nearby cities to tempt more people in (Sale did well at Bolton and the Salford idea is a good one).

I've always though Newcastle Falcons seem to be based to much in Newcastle where it's all about football and could do with branching out into the surrounding countryside where rugby is played. Tigers recruit largely not from the city but from towns like Loughborough, Syston, Oadby etc and a lot of the fans travel to the city not from within it.

and Newcastle!

Am I going to have to give you the bums rush too?

Cumbrian wrote:
I like the idea, but a lot of people really rail against ring fencing the league. I read an article a while ago that suggested that Bristol and Leeds should be promoted and the league closed for three years. Under the plan, whilst the league was closed the RFU would offer the Championship clubs interest free loans to try and get their stadia up to scratch. Subsequently, teams would be permitted into the new Premiership, which would be split into conferences, in the way you describe. Lots of problems though, lower league teams would legitimately complain about the leg up from the RFU and although the RFU is a rich organisation, would it have the money?

That idea sounds quite good actually. Of course relegation does make the bottom of the league more interesting at the end of the season (and more nail biting/worrying for the fans of those teams) but does it encourage growth of the game? It's especially farcical when only a very few teams are even allowed to be promoted.

I think the RFU are actually doing a decent job up here if I'm honest. trouble is it'll come to fruition too late for the Falcons. I've never known so many 'working class' kids turning out on a sunday at all age groups. Normally the Tynedales and the Durhams of the world would be the only ones with farmer's and doctor's kids keeping away from that awful football game. Now I see almost as many young 'uns turning out for their local teams as do in the afternoons for footy.
A lot of this is down to some fantastic work from these smaller clubs but the RFU have realised they've been missing a trick for decades with this whole public school, ra-ra nonsense.
That said.....getting rugby into the mindset of a population who still see it as a sport of the priviledged minority could take some time. Too long for Newcastle I fear, who once they've gone down will probably bow out for good!

That's a reassuring post from ultra. What I hear supports Cumbrian's opening paragraph, that the grassroots are strong but the professional game struggles. As an England fan I prefer it that way round.

I'm sure a northern club or two will come good anyway. Sale are best placed at present. I'm also far from certain Newcastle will go down - I think their best team isn't bad (they seem to have a financial backer), and I'd expect them to win a few home games. I reckon relegation this season could be close.

I suggested something similar on another thread ages ago

https://www.606v2.com/t5826-should-the-premiership-be-ringfenced

Personally I think that the League could change from being a club league to a club and regional league.

Tigers, Saracens etc are all big enough clubs, but in different area's maybe instead of having a club in the league make a region.

eg take Cornish Piriates, instead of them struggling to get to the premiership, have the Cornwall Rugby Football Union form a team.

The Cornwall Rugby Football Union has 39 rugby union clubs which includes every rugby union club in Cornwall.

The Cornwall Rugby Football Union has already made a team before using the best players from every club in Cornwall, enter this team in the Premiership, with every Cornish Club only able to play at a maxium level of the Championship as Prem MAY be ringfenced or Cornish teams can't get promoted.

You would end up with a Cornish team set up in a Similar model to the Irish and S15 teams. It would Concentrate the best players in Cornwall into one represenative team that could be part of a ring fenced Prem.

A cornish club team(like pirates) may not gain the support of everyone in Cornwall (due to old club rivalirys) but a Cornish representative side made up of all the clubs could gain support from everyone in Cornwall and have a bigger draw of players than any club in Cornwall could have.


Similarly Have a Yorkshire team ( a representative side made up of all the clubs in Yorkshire) and a Worcestershire Rugby Football Club (representative side made up of all the clubs in Worcestershire) same for North east England etc,

Therefore you'd create a 14 team league with the major clubs still in it but county teams to represent the clubs in areas rugby isn't as popular creating stronger teams.

The problem up Newcastle way appears to be that people play the game but don't go and watch it. Most who play are also football fans and will go and watch that instead.

Regional teams wouldn't, unfortunately, solve that problem. I can see some plus points to it though.

Kingshu wrote:I suggested something similar on another thread ages ago

https://www.606v2.com/t5826-should-the-premiership-be-ringfenced

Personally I think that the League could change from being a club league to a club and regional league.

Tigers, Saracens etc are all big enough clubs, but in different area's maybe instead of having a club in the league make a region.

eg take Cornish Piriates, instead of them struggling to get to the premiership, have the Cornwall Rugby Football Union form a team.

The Cornwall Rugby Football Union has 39 rugby union clubs which includes every rugby union club in Cornwall.

The Cornwall Rugby Football Union has already made a team before using the best players from every club in Cornwall, enter this team in the Premiership, with every Cornish Club only able to play at a maxium level of the Championship as Prem MAY be ringfenced or Cornish teams can't get promoted.

You would end up with a Cornish team set up in a Similar model to the Irish and S15 teams. It would Concentrate the best players in Cornwall into one represenative team that could be part of a ring fenced Prem.

A cornish club team(like pirates) may not gain the support of everyone in Cornwall (due to old club rivalirys) but a Cornish representative side made up of all the clubs could gain support from everyone in Cornwall and have a bigger draw of players than any club in Cornwall could have.


Similarly Have a Yorkshire team ( a representative side made up of all the clubs in Yorkshire) and a Worcestershire Rugby Football Club (representative side made up of all the clubs in Worcestershire) same for North east England etc,

Therefore you'd create a 14 team league with the major clubs still in it but county teams to represent the clubs in areas rugby isn't as popular creating stronger teams.

wouldnt it make sense for a cornish "region" to join the "celts" in the pro-12 and break-away from the RFU if they cant get in the premiership?

Kingshu wrote:I suggested something similar on another thread ages ago

https://www.606v2.com/t5826-should-the-premiership-be-ringfenced

Personally I think that the League could change from being a club league to a club and regional league.

Tigers, Saracens etc are all big enough clubs, but in different area's maybe instead of having a club in the league make a region.

eg take Cornish Piriates, instead of them struggling to get to the premiership, have the Cornwall Rugby Football Union form a team.

The Cornwall Rugby Football Union has 39 rugby union clubs which includes every rugby union club in Cornwall.

The Cornwall Rugby Football Union has already made a team before using the best players from every club in Cornwall, enter this team in the Premiership, with every Cornish Club only able to play at a maxium level of the Championship as Prem MAY be ringfenced or Cornish teams can't get promoted.

You would end up with a Cornish team set up in a Similar model to the Irish and S15 teams. It would Concentrate the best players in Cornwall into one represenative team that could be part of a ring fenced Prem.

A cornish club team(like pirates) may not gain the support of everyone in Cornwall (due to old club rivalirys) but a Cornish representative side made up of all the clubs could gain support from everyone in Cornwall and have a bigger draw of players than any club in Cornwall could have.


Similarly Have a Yorkshire team ( a representative side made up of all the clubs in Yorkshire) and a Worcestershire Rugby Football Club (representative side made up of all the clubs in Worcestershire) same for North east England etc,

Therefore you'd create a 14 team league with the major clubs still in it but county teams to represent the clubs in areas rugby isn't as popular creating stronger teams.

Kingshu

The Cornish pirates are already effectively a region arent they? Theyve rebranded from Penzance and Newlyn and will be moving into the new stadium at Truro when its built. I think the reason for this rebrand was to take advantage of the fact that there is no other professional sports team around (I guess Truro FC but they are a long way off the top level!). Once the stadium is built they will definitely have the criteria for the premiership and as the county is such a hot bed for rugby, it would be a real bonus if they could make it into the premiership.

I was just using Pirates as an example, as they seam to be the first to sort of try to represent a region rather than a town/city, but what pirates are doing could be replicated in Lancashire or Yorkshire.

Rebrand to appeal to a larger population, and possible move to biggest/easiest to access area.

Ah I see what you mean. The issue might be, who are say Leeds to say that they are more representitive of Yorkshire than Doncaster or Rotherham? I think it is a good idea though and appealing to a wider population is the way forward.

So we could become the Northumbria Nuggets, or the Tyne and Wear Tyranosaurs....

The Pirates are trying to move away from the idea they're Penzance rebranded and towards the 'Cornish' team. They're doing it their own way and I think that's the right way. Rather than the RFU forcing it on them. As mentioned Sale seem to be doing something similar.

I imagine a lot of people in Leicestershire support the Tigers and play/support their own local side. Same probably goes for a lot of people/clubs. Is there a need to force it on them? Newcastle already has a lot of support outside of Newcastle (Cumbrian are you actually Cumbrian or an ex-Geordie?).

If we were to ring fence the premierhsip I'd go the way of league. Have a set number of places and teams bid for them. Criteria is based on performance, finacial models, ground side, location (i.e. distace from other top clubs), etc. But this would result in some peed off clubs (especially in the Soth West were there are a lot of good clubs in a smallish area.

Regarding the current restriction put on entry into the premiership, do we really want teams with suger-daddies coming up without the infrastructure in place to support it? Exeter have been a success because they have the infrastructure. The only bad thing is that some current premiership clubs don't meet the requirements but it would never have gone through otherwise.

HammerofThunor wrote:The Pirates are trying to move away from the idea they're Penzance rebranded and towards the 'Cornish' team. They're doing it their own way and I think that's the right way. Rather than the RFU forcing it on them. As mentioned Sale seem to be doing something similar.

I imagine a lot of people in Leicestershire support the Tigers and play/support their own local side. Same probably goes for a lot of people/clubs. Is there a need to force it on them? Newcastle already has a lot of support outside of Newcastle (Cumbrian are you actually Cumbrian or an ex-Geordie?).

If we were to ring fence the premierhsip I'd go the way of league. Have a set number of places and teams bid for them. Criteria is based on performance, finacial models, ground side, location (i.e. distace from other top clubs), etc. But this would result in some peed off clubs (especially in the Soth West were there are a lot of good clubs in a smallish area.

Regarding the current restriction put on entry into the premiership, do we really want teams with suger-daddies coming up without the infrastructure in place to support it? Exeter have been a success because they have the infrastructure. The only bad thing is that some current premiership clubs don't meet the requirements but it would never have gone through otherwise.

Cumbrian born and raised.

Would rebranding Newcastle encourage people from outside of Newcastle to support them? It sounds like most of there support is from outside the city anyway AND the support inside the city is increasing. Do you think telling people in your area that they should support Newcastle with a new name would encourage them?

I think it depends on which part of the county you aim for. There might be some interest in the north around Carlisle, but they are more football orientated.

Outside of Carlisle the main population centres are in the west of the county which are really dominated by RL. You'd find it difficult to even get most people to watch a game of Union on telly. Still there are a number of very old and established rugby clubs in the west like Workington Zebras, Aspatria, Whitehaven and Netherhall. They used to get reduced tickets to see the Falcons play, not sure if that still happens though.

Without sounding like a bellend, a lot of people in West Cumbria are quite poor and it would genuinely stretch them to go and see Newcastle play.

East Cumbria RU is more popular, but it is sparsely populated.

The other thing is, Cumbria has strong links with Sale too. A number of famous Cumbrian players like Mark Cueto and Steve Hanley play(ed) there. Even now, the likes of Rob Miller and Will Addison are locally reported on more than the Cumbrians at Newcastle like Mark Wilson, Joe Graham and Joe Robinson.

All that is without even mentioning the horrendous transport links