Ashton top try scorer in 6 nations AND world cup

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So Ashton has finished up as top try scorer in the 2011 6 nations and the 2011 world cup. The guy is still in his early 20's so I have no doubt he will go on and break all sorts of try scoring records. His strike rate for England is phenominal and is pretty much a try a game for his 17 tests to date. His record for Northampton is equally impressive and is surely the best strike rate in any domestic top flight competition in the world. Ashton, providing he stays injury free will go down as one of the greats of the game.

I think he is a very easy player for a team with a good defence to stop.

If my team was Italy or Aironi I'd be worried about Ashton.

If my team was S.Africa or Leinster I'd think about other players...

...because I think he is good at exposing weak defences and finishing chances against those weak defences or weak scramble defences.

Against good defences I think he is just another guy who is fast and not much else.

I think the crucial point is that he leaches, he waits for others to break and is a great support runner. I don't think many of his tries have come from him making the break. How many assists does he have? How many linebreaks? How many defenders beaten? how many defenders beaten when the line hasn't already been broken?

Not a great winger IMO at all, a good one but nowhere near great and I don't think he ever will be.

so pete your telling me he has a head game- he has the vision to get into good places- isnt that his job?

I disagree Pete.

I think he is a great player to have against a strong defence. The crucial part that we are mising is the creativity from the midfield that can use his skills.

A strong defence can pretty much snub out many creative players...but you drive on to a defender, take the contact and offload instantly to Ashton flying on your shoulder, the chances are he will make big yards...or score.

I think its good to have a player like Ashton on one wing, and a creative / flyer on the other....a nice mix.

All I care is that in three tests he hasn't scored v Ireland

He very nearly did in the 6N where he was pulled down 10m short and panicked throwing a pass straight to D'Arcy (oh for the head slap animation).

I don't really rate him tbh, a winger has to score tries yes but has to do more than just that too.

That pass to Darcy just shows how unrounded he is.

He is not a skillful player IMO.
I wouldn't want him on my team

I don't think that he is unskillfull as he has a big bag of tricks but he is a League boy and some of the Union skill set are slow coming to him. In the situation involving D'Arcy he would have looked for a quick re-set in League and then attacking knowing he couldn't be robbed of the ball. In that game had he taken the tackle he would have been mugged or conceded a penalty inside 30 seconds. He had no choice but to pass he just made the wrong decision, he needed to slow up and take a look around.

He is a young player and if that is the only mistake we can find of his on the international stage (let's not forget that was a very tough game to play in) then he's doing pretty good.

I was wondering when the two words "Shane" and "North" were going to pop up...

this thread was asking for it really....

Ashtons support play is superb, thats why hes got so many tries. whenever a player makes a break Ashton is on their shoulder ready to receive the try scoring pass.

I just wish Tuilagi realised Ashton was on his shoulder more, so many typical Ashton tries were missed out in France game of the world cup in particular I remember.

Why is it that Ashton is arrogant and disrespectful when he scores tries, but when Shane Williams does the same it's a "joyful touchdown" and isn't arrogant or disrespectful to the opposition ? See 24 seconds in: youtube.com/watch?v=mnFItPHZSss

I think Ashton is an excellent player, and he'll score a whole lot more once England has sorted out its midfield.

He is fast, deceptively powerful and is a natural try scorer. When left to his own devices he's very good at following play and tracking runners. His scoring record at club and international level stands up to scrutiny.

Not sure I'd slap that overused tag of "world class" on him, but certainly a top notch international winger. As for the celebrations - personally I couldn't care less. Doesn't impact my judgement of him as a rugby player.

I think what I am trying to say is, as a Leinster and Irish fan, I don't fear Ashton at all. Foden? Yes. Tuilagi? Yes, but less so.

I just don't think Ashton is great at all

Haters gonna hate guys, might as well just leave it, let them invent reasons why he is no good and enjoy the next set they have to search for when he is top try scorer next 6N. It'll only get funnier as they look more ridiculous in their contrariness.

Pretty sure he'd have run in that interception against the Aussies Pete. Bowe looked pretty sluggish to me

funnyExiledScot wrote:Pretty sure he'd have run in that interception against the Aussies Pete. Bowe looked pretty sluggish to me

He wouldn't have got the interception in the 1st place as he'd be too busy praying he wouldn't have to make a tackle .

England rugby fan wrote:Why is it that Ashton is arrogant and disrespectful when he scores tries, but when Shane Williams does the same it's a "joyful touchdown" and isn't arrogant or disrespectful to the opposition ? See 24 seconds in: youtube.com/watch?v=mnFItPHZSss

I can't quite put my finger on it. I think its his face, freckles and ginger hair.

I was going to say I don't hate him but I really do dislike him quite a lot. Irrational dislike I'm afraid.

I just don't think he is that great a player as he doesn't seem to perform well against good teams or rather teams with good defences.

Yes he would have run in that interception against Australia but would he have got the interception in the first place?

He is fast and is a good support player that is the extent of him as a player IMO.

He was top try scorer of two tournaments playing outside Tindall and Hape, the man is a bloody genius.

To be fair, it's ok to have an irrational dislike of players. It happens all the time. It can't be helped.

I just can't abide Sexton's pinched little face. He's always scowling and looks to me like a snotty-nosed kid brought up on a rough estate on a bad diet.

Yes, these irrational dislikes can be quite detailed

Cumbrian wrote:He was top try scorer of two tournaments playing outside Tindall and Hape, the man is a bloody genius.

Oh man big time! And as soon as you dislike a player it's so hard to change your mind. Like I love watching Ashton getting destroyed in games and the treatment he got in the 6n against us made me warm and tingilly inside

SafeAsMilk wrote:To be fair, it's ok to have an irrational dislike of players. It happens all the time. It can't be helped.

I just can't abide Sexton's pinched little face. He's always scowling and looks to me like a snotty-nosed kid brought up on a rough estate on a bad diet.

Yes, these irrational dislikes can be quite detailed

As long as you acknowledge your own irrationality, eh Sin E?

SafeAsMilk wrote:
I just can't abide Sexton's pinched little face. He's always scowling and looks to me like a snotty-nosed kid brought up on a rough estate on a bad diet.

You're not Ronan O'Gara by any chance?

Rodders very good.

roddersm wrote:

SafeAsMilk wrote:
I just can't abide Sexton's pinched little face. He's always scowling and looks to me like a snotty-nosed kid brought up on a rough estate on a bad diet.

You're not Ronan O'Gara by any chance?

Nah, I don't dislike him that much!

What I don't like is how it seems that so many people on this site (and others I guess) go on and on about how great someone is going to be. Just let it happen. North, Ashton, Tuiagli (sp) etc are going to be greats people say. But so far they have had mini careers and looked good in parts. Let them have a couple of good seasons before you start bestowing them with greatness. Rococoko has scored a bundle of tries for NZ but he's not a great. Jane has been immense the last 2.5 years and he's not a great. Gear has been scary at times but he's not even good enough to get in the squad.
So cut out this going to be great business until some really proves themselves. Time will tell whether Ashton is a great or merely a useful winger.

He's a very good winger.

I can only imagine what he'd be like if 90% of his test time hadn't been outside Tindal and Hape.

SafeAsMilk wrote:

roddersm wrote:

SafeAsMilk wrote:
I just can't abide Sexton's pinched little face. He's always scowling and looks to me like a snotty-nosed kid brought up on a rough estate on a bad diet.

You're not Ronan O'Gara by any chance?

Nah, I don't dislike him that much!

Sexton grew up around Rathgar/Rathmines in Dublin 6. It's a very nice part of Dublin. He does have a bit of a slapable face though.

leinsterbaby wrote:

SafeAsMilk wrote:

roddersm wrote:

SafeAsMilk wrote:
I just can't abide Sexton's pinched little face. He's always scowling and looks to me like a snotty-nosed kid brought up on a rough estate on a bad diet.

You're not Ronan O'Gara by any chance?

Nah, I don't dislike him that much!

Sexton grew up around Rathgar/Rathmines in Dublin 6. It's a very nice part of Dublin. He does have a bit of a slapable face though.

Everything's relative I suppose

Or is that where all the "West Brits" live?

Looseheaded wrote:
I'm just saying I'd rather a creative winger, a winger who you can give the ball to and he'll find space, not one who needs the space to be made for him. Who's a bigger attacking threat? Somebody who can create an attack or somebody who can finish one off? I just think he's an absolutely over rated player, he gets frustrated and bottles it, and lacks the edge that I think 'great' wingers need. The wingers you listed had that edge, because they weren't just finishers, they had a spark, he doesn't have that, he just happens to be the best attacker england have had since robinson and as such everybody needs a change of underwear.

Also, whoever said that he's a better winger than Shane is more than a little bit silly. I mean, seriously? You'd pick him over the 3rd highest try scorer of all time? Good for you.

All other things being equal, if you have a winger who is better at making tries for himself but still doesn't have a higher try scoring ratio than him, then by definition that means they are worse at something else.

At this moment in time I would pick Ashton over Shane. At Shane's peak he was obviously incredible, but these days I'd say Ashton's the better player.

leinsterbaby wrote:Yes Ashton has done very well. 15 tries in 18 test matches. He has scored tries in 6 matches so when he scores he tends to grab a couple.

He has scored against

3 v Australia
2 v Wales
4 v Italy
1 v Scotland
2 v Georgia
3 v Romania

All I care is that in three tests he hasn't scored v Ireland.

He's only played Ireland twice.

Despite the fact that I hate the way he celebrates (hope he drops it one day) the guy knows how finish and will always be a threat to the opposition.

His league background is great asset to him in the way he tracks the ball and looks for work, like with Greenwood (who always had habit of scoring against us) I will be happy with any English that he not in when against Wales.

Glas a du wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote:

SafeAsMilk wrote:

roddersm wrote:

SafeAsMilk wrote:
I just can't abide Sexton's pinched little face. He's always scowling and looks to me like a snotty-nosed kid brought up on a rough estate on a bad diet.

You're not Ronan O'Gara by any chance?

Nah, I don't dislike him that much!

Sexton grew up around Rathgar/Rathmines in Dublin 6. It's a very nice part of Dublin. He does have a bit of a slapable face though.

Everything's relative I suppose

Or is that where all the "West Brits" live?

Relative to what exactly? It is one of the more affluent parts of Dublin. Sexton comes from Munster stock so he probably is not a "west Brit" no. Having said that the people that use that term are usually as or if not more influenced by British culture as those they claim are "west Brits". The sort that would watch Corination street in their Manu jersey horsing into Maris piper chips imported from England or anything else they got from Tesco. The irony is lost on some. Irish people are all British influenced to some extent. The term is nonsense.

Leinsterbaby, it was an obviously poor attempt at wringing humour out of the irony of Dublin having a nice bit. Nice relative to the rest of Dublin, see? No I know, it wasn't worth it.



Now that you say it though, I have noticed a lot of Americanisms from the Irish fraternity posting on here, especially younger Leinster fans.

Glas a du wrote:Now that you say it though, I have noticed a lot of Americanisms from the Irish fraternity posting on here, especially younger Leinster fans.

Funnily enough, I've noticed some Irish say 'gotten' and I thought it was just Americans who said that.

Yes, and what on earth is a douche?

Glas a du wrote:Yes, and what on earth is a douche?

Just don't go Googling it at work mate.

chewed_mintie wrote:

flankertye wrote:IF HE SCORES HE SCORES

Ivan Drago's in the house!!!

God I'm glad someone picked up on that!
The point is, England finally have a winger that can score tries for fun. Cueto is a wonderful player, but he's pretty much Heskey. Great for players around him, but can rarely score himself.

Glas a du wrote:Leinsterbaby, it was an obviously poor attempt at wringing humour out of the irony of Dublin having a nice bit. Nice relative to the rest of Dublin, see? No I know, it wasn't worth it.



Now that you say it though, I have noticed a lot of Americanisms from the Irish fraternity posting on here, especially younger Leinster fans.

tbf dublin is a lovely city, and the girls there

anyway onto ashton i find his swan dive irritating but he comes across well in interviews which increases my irrational hate of him!

average winger with good pace and vision but i think we saw when defences had studied the opposition well the inside pass to ashton didnt work- i guess this also helps if you have a good backrow

"deceant winger but i think we saw when defences had studied the opposition well the inside pass to ashton didnt work- i guess this also helps if you have a good backrow"

And a scrumhalf who sweeps in behind

Looseheaded wrote:Five of his tries were against Romania and Georgia... Can't really count those. Four of his tries in the 6N were against a weak Italy. I genuinely believe him to be one of the most over rated wingers in world rugby right now. Whilst he's quick and reads the game relatively well, he doesn't create tries, he isn't a player you need to build tactics around, he's a finisher, his tries come off the back of other players' work, not his own. Personally I'd take somebody who makes tries for himself and others with a lower individual try count than him.

and of course every other team in the world play against only strong opposition....

Each team play against weaker and stronger opposition, i'm not saying Ashton is a world great. But this "oh this try doesnt count, or that try doesnt count because of the opposition" is a load crap!

EDIT: I should also point out that each team in the 6 nations played the same teams.

"EDIT: I should also point out that each team in the 6 nations played the same teams."

nathan add the fact that teams in the world cup also played against weak sides in the groups and england only played 5 games. wlaes,oz,nz and france played 7

mystiroakey wrote:"EDIT: I should also point out that each team in the 6 nations played the same teams."

nathan add the fact that teams in the world cup also played against weak sides in the groups and england only played 5 games. wlaes,oz,nz and france played 7

Add that Dagg only scored against Canada and Tonga and North only scored against Fiji and Namibia, ergo, they are both average. Oh wait, they don't have a rose on their shirts, ergo they are both amazing.

P.S Only having a laugh, don't go mental.

ER,

You are right though, that's the problem with big majority on these boards of all Nations, we all wear tinted glasses.

Ashton in a natural finisher and poacher along with the likes of North, Williams, Bowe etc etc.

i think the thing people dont like about ashton is he is english- most people have a natural hatred towards the english for some reason or another- probably due to conquering countries and stuff but lets not go into that.
And anything he does which may not be perfect people will have a go at him due to his prejudice- e.g the swan dive (although it is stupid and he deserves to drop the ball to make him realise ground the bloody ball first)

also ashton isint your convential winger- yes he is fast but when you look at most wingers (or indeed good wingers) they can use the smallest amount of space to create an opportunity and finish- and ashton isint like that, he utilises his pace to hit gaps and burst through the defence. also he doesnt seem to enjoy being on his wing as whenever i have seen him he looks comfortable in the centre but not the wing- if his defence was better i would say he plays more like an attacking fullback.

but just as we havent seen him make tries from nothing is it because he cant or because he hasnt had the opportunity as he is being utilised for his speed and not anything else?

is he overrated? currently yes, mainly due to media and i know people talk about his try count and the fact he scored against minnows, its not his fault- he has taken his opportunities.

the problem i see for ashton is he is relatively new on the scene so defences werent aware of him, but we saw during the better tier nations who have gameplans to adapt to each match, you could see that the inside ball wasnt working, so maybe they need to use him as a dummy runner.

this problem is no different to that of jamie roberts has been suffering- came on the scene big guy smashing defences, but then teams sussed him out, but he has adapted and now playing very well. George North will likely face a similar problem but i would say he has a better overall skillset than ashton so will be easier to adapt.

welshy824 wrote:i think the thing people dont like about ashton is he is english- most people have a natural hatred towards the english for some reason or another- probably due to conquering countries and stuff but lets not go into that.
And anything he does which may not be perfect people will have a go at him due to his prejudice- e.g the swan dive (although it is stupid and he deserves to drop the ball to make him realise ground the bloody ball first)

So you also think Shane Williams is stupid for his "swan dive" against Fiji in RWC 2007 ?

England,

From a Welsh POV yes I do think he's stupid ground the bloody ball first then p about if you want to.

People don't like Ashton because he comes across as full of himself. Obviously his insistance on swan diving even after his boss asked him not to shows he is a bit of an attention seeker. He didn't help his cause by getting into in a incident with the hotel maid in NZ. He is a good player, 15 tries in 18 games is excellent but he is a clown too.

I actually think there are at least two wingers better than Ashton in the English game, but I still think he's a great player. He isn't going to dazzle defences a la Williams/JSD etc but he has incredible strength, is super fast and a cracking finisher, more akin to Bowe I feel. Can't say fairer than that, we just need something different on the other wing. All about balance.

Ashton is a ex league/ cross code winger, I'm sometimes surprised that he hasn't deed-polled his middle name to 'Showbiz' (Although, you should view his interviews where he comes across as quite modest).

As England fans, I think we are aware he is a little full of himself but after so many years of earnest losers it's... Nice! What narks me about this is there are plenty of players out there who are just as full of themselves, but don't get the abuse, even though they haven't actually achieved as much as Ashton has. When I realised he was top scorer again I almost instantly became fed up because I knew this stuff would come up again

Final point, people get angry at his celebration, but other players celebrate and don't get stick for it e.g. Gareth Thomas with the 'Ayatollah'.

england yes it was stupid and he should ground it first but shane did have a better hold of the ball than ashton.- also tbf to shane it was a good try and its not like he does it every time- i mean if ashton did it for his aus try then said bit stupid but fair enough but every try is stupid