Heineken Cup: Pool 2

Fans from all corners of Europe absolutely love the Heineken Cup. I will be doing just a brief preview of the European competition pool by pool with fans giving their opinion on who will top the pool, get runners-up spot and who will get absolutely tonked. On the eleventh of November the competition will officially start, two-time winners Leinster are the current holders.

Pool two – another tough pool that seems very tight:
Cardiff Blues
Edinburgh Rugby
London Irish
Racing Metro 92

The Blues have to be strong candidates for winning this group if they're on the try-scoring form they have previously been known for. They last tasted success in 2009 winning the EDF trophy and winning the Amlin Challenge Cup in 2010 after qualifying to get there on points. The past two seasons have seen them under-perform but also be seriously unlucky not to make the KO stages courtesy of French officials (Sale away, Northampton home the year after) and being grouped with the form teams of the competition those years (Toulouse, Northampton the following year). Their finest year in the Heineken Cup came in the 2008/09 season where they went unbeaten up to the quarter finals then losing to Leicester on a penalty shoot-out after sudden death. They are currently fourth in the Celtic League and have scored the most tries without their best players available to them. The first choice team is very strong, experienced and has a taste of success however there's still question marks over their front row (hooker and tight-head) coupled with the fact that they aren't sure whether they will be keeping current coaches Burnell and Baber; this could go against them.

Unfortunately, not much to write about Edinburgh in this competition. The under-resourced team enjoyed their best season under Andy Robinson in 2009, had he not been offered the Scotland Head Coach position they may have continued to move forward. With their internationals back from world cup duty their team are a formidable challenge in Murrayfield for the other three pool contenders; if the team get the ball to flying Dutchman Tim Visser they will score some tries. They have not had a good start to the season and currently find themselves placed eleventh in the Celtic League (one from the bottom). However they recently battled Munster and ended up winners so the team could be hitting winning form at the right time.

London Irish are the English club that is based in Reading. Here is another strong team that has been competitive in recent seasons. The furthest they have reached in the Heineken Cup was the semi finals in 2008, just losing out to four time winners Toulouse. A year later seen them reach the final of the English Premiership and lose it by one point to Leicester. Now we will see whether they have picked themselves up from the hurt and learnt how to win these big games. LI are currently fourth in the English Premiership which shows their recent form is good. The team is host to England internationals as well as some overseas stars such as the devastating Sailosi Tagicakibau. They have recruited intelligently this pre-season and last, bringing in rising stars such as Daniel Bowden of NZ and the promising Steven Shingler of Wales; two great attacking fly-halves that will battle for the number 10 jersey. The strength is their backline, they look to play an expansive game and will be hoping for a good platform layed down by the forwards.

Racing Metro first entered this competition in the 2010-2011 season after promotion to the top 14 the previous season. Whilst Stade Francais suffered with some financial difficulty, Racing received some large financial backing to then emerge as the aristocratic team of Paris. With that they have brought in some big names and now have a star-studded team that can challenge for this competition. I do wonder though whether their smash it up through Nallet and Chabal then let either Steyn or Hernandez take a shot at goal tactics will be enough to top this group. I am uncertain of their current form as they currently stand in seventh place in the Top 14, but definitely not a team to be written off just yet.

Morg's pick: In my eyes only I still see London Irish as being inconsistent so I will select Cardiff Blues as my pick to top this pool. I am expectant of big things from this team after seeing what their internationals can do on the biggest stage. The team has been able to handle what most of the French has thrown at them in recent seasons, Racing's smash and kick tactics against them will fail as did Wasps, Toulouse, etc did before them. The recent form over Edinburgh is good, I think it's going for something like 6 on the trot now, that includes two wins against them in last seasons Heineken Cup. They will go into those games confident and be targetting 8-10 points. This is where the pool could be won or lost as the other two contenders will be unfamiliar with the harshness of what the Gunners can throw at you up in Murrayfield.

This pool is wide open. The Blues have a tough trip to Paris first up, and if they want to win this pool need to come back with a LBP as a bare minimum.

Likewise London Irish need to start well and put Edinburgh away at home. If the Exiles win, which I think we really should do at home, and the Blues get the LBP or better in France, I see the R2 fixture at the CCS as the key game in the pool.

Irish have started each of the last 2 campaigns really well, beating Leinster and then Munster in R1, only to lose in R2 to Welsh opposition (Scarlets and Ospreys). If we can overcome that hoodoo and actually win our first 2 games for a change, I will be confident that we can top the pool.

I think Cardiff has a great opportunity to get away in this pool. Racing form has been very shaky in top 14 (went to see them against toulon last weekend and they were appaling despite a good start). mind you they just won away in Castres which is a great performance considering its castres who was on 7 wins a row and mainly considering it was a proper B team from racing. Racing will get of course their internationals backs at some point but dont expect them to find consistency by the time the blues visit them. but lets see what happens next week before putting any predictions.

A lot depends on if the Blues can get Jenkins, Robert, L.Williams, Halfpenny, B.Davies and Warburton to maintain their form for the 1st round.

If Roberts and Warbs perform then we could sneak a win in Paris - If that happens the Blues are a shoe in for the 1/4s.

Getting a tough away win in R1 doesn't make you a certainty for the 1/4's Wales, but it would be a very good result for them and put them in a strong position.

Having watched Edinburgh vs. Leinster tonight, I have to say that I think the Scotsmen are the weakest team in the pool.

I doubt LI have the depth of resources to try and compete in more than one competition. They are capable of beating any team in this group - but equally capable of being thumped by any team.

Racing are a much better team than they are being given credit for, last season was their first in the HC and really they concentrated on the T14. Should they get a good win in Round 1 they could choose to take this competition seriously - but most French club sides do seem to accept that winning away is impossible.

Blues should be the Pool Winners, and will certainly do better than last years woeful efforts - but I have a sneaking feeling that if they suffer any injuries in the tight 5 during the winter they may struggle again.

Edinburgh I hate to write any team off, but the performances of Scottish teams in the HC is dire. Their form in the Pro12 is not good - so you feel that they will be the team that the pool winners will be beating twice.


For me Racing to top group - if they get the BP win in R1.

Tiger

Lots of valid points there mate. RM92's away form will be key , and arguably the fixtures computer has given them the the best possible order of games to start with Blues (h), Edinburgh (a) Irish (h).

Who do they have returning from the World Cup, I can only think of Nallet off the top of my head?

I think this weekend and next weekends domestic results and performances will have a big impact. We have two tough fixtures, which if we go well in, will see us confident and battle hardened going into R1. Blues have a tricky trip to Connacht this week were they could come unstuck and that could dent confidence, or they could put the Irishmen to the sword and come into the competition on the crest of a wave.

I disagree. Racing gave this competition a good shot last year. They recovered well from being beaten by Leinster in the first round by beating Clermont and then beating Saracens away. Unforunately for them they lost the return fixture the week after in a snow covered Paris. That pretty much put them out of the running at that point and perhaps their demoralisation contributed to losing their remaining games; that included another tough lesson in European Elite rugby from Leinster.

Ozzy is right in pointing out they have the best possible order of fixtures in this group and if allowed to gather momentum then they can finish on top. Blues haven't started this competition well in recent seasons. The inspirational Rush has been on the wane but luckily Warburton has emerged as an even more inspiring captain. On paper, they are the strongest team but as mentioned, they do not have a set of capable coaches.

Well, on the evidence of this weekends performances, it'll be RM92 from the Blues at the top, with Irish and Edinburgh competing for the wooden spoon.

Having said that, on the same evidence, whoever comes from through the pool, none of these teams will be troubling the trophy engravers next May.


Could all change next week though, I'll get back to you then!

Ozzy3213 wrote:Well, on the evidence of this weekends performances, it'll be RM92 from the Blues at the top, with Irish and Edinburgh competing for the wooden spoon.

Having said that, on the same evidence, whoever comes from through the pool, none of these teams will be troubling the trophy engravers next May.


Could all change next week though, I'll get back to you then!

+1

But, ya never know Ozzy. Its the HC. I only see one team making it from this Pool also. And they wont bother most of the last 8 either.

Very even group. But not a group of death. Any team could win it, but not a pool to trouble anyone else. I'd guess it will be Blues or Racing, but winner won't be getting past the QFs.

The daft thing is that if we did get out of the pool, I know that on any given day we can turn any team over, so we would be a threat in quarters, but at present it would appear we don't actually have the consistency to get that far.

As a Blues fan I don't see us winning the pool. Metro have got a lot of money and quality and experienced players like Nallet, Chabal, Bergamasco and I think they will fancy their chances in this pool. From what I have seen of the Blues so far (LV Cup aside) I think we will fail to live up to expectations.

This is how I see the pool finishing
1. Racing Metro 92
2. London Irish
3. Cardiff Blues
4. Edinburgh Rugby

I think it will be a mistake to write Edinburgh off. I reckon pertty much all the teams in this group will win their home games and Bonus points will decide the league.

Edinburgh played very well against Leinster and defensive lapses cost us tries. With a new midfield of young players it's common for tries to be leaked from mistakes. I really hope/think Edinburgh are more than capable of Springing a surprise or two.

Bradley's problem at the moment is I don't think he know 100% what his best team is. For instance the team that played Leinster was pretty Experimental and I think good points and bad points can be taken from the results.

When Rennie returns at 7 which I think he will when the Exiles come to visit will transform the way Edinburgh perform at the breakdown which was a problem on Friday.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I think it will be a mistake to write Edinburgh off. I reckon pertty much all the teams in this group will win their home games and Bonus points will decide the league.

Edinburgh played very well against Leinster and defensive lapses cost us tries. With a new midfield of young players it's common for tries to be leaked from mistakes. I really hope/think Edinburgh are more than capable of Springing a surprise or two.

Bradley's problem at the moment is I don't think he know 100% what his best team is. For instance the team that played Leinster was pretty Experimental and I think good points and bad points can be taken from the results.

When Rennie returns at 7 which I think he will when the Exiles come to visit will transform the way Edinburgh perform at the breakdown which was a problem on Friday.

I can see RM92 taking Embra at Murrayfield, Radge - your big problem is the boiler room for me, just not the callibre of locks needed, although Gilchrist and Turnbull both have plenty of promise

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote: your big problem is the boiler room for me, just not the callibre of locks needed, although Gilchrist and Turnbull both have plenty of promise

Tell me something I don't know!

What I would give to bring someone like big Jim back to Edinburgh for a season or 2 and act as the Enforcer whilst teaching the youngsters a thing or two.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I think it will be a mistake to write Edinburgh off. I reckon pertty much all the teams in this group will win their home games and Bonus points will decide the league.

Well going by their recent form who wouldn't write them off. They're no dark horses. Bonus points (LBP vital too) and away wins will decide the group. Blues can win in Murrayfield but they will have to play a lot better than they currently are.

In the Edinburgh vs Blues game I'm looking forward to Warburton against Rennie. In the 6N game Barclay was under extreme pressure at the breakdown from Warburton and every game in the RWC Warburton has been excellent. Rennie is a similar sort of fetching player but is normally better at turning over possesion on his feet rather than on the floor.

Looking forward to all of these games. The HC brings a level of competition and intensity that the Pro12 can't really create.

Morgannwg wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I think it will be a mistake to write Edinburgh off. I reckon pertty much all the teams in this group will win their home games and Bonus points will decide the league.

Well going by their recent form who wouldn't write them off. They're no dark horses. Bonus points (LBP vital too) and away wins will decide the group. Blues can win in Murrayfield but they will have to play a lot better than they currently are.

Blues were poor last season and this, yet we beat Edinburgh twice at Murrayfield last season and once already this season.

It was playing at home to edinburgh where we almost lost (1pt win in the HC last year in Cardiff)

Yes Blues don't usually start this competition too well, and have to travel to France in their first game! I also look forward to the Rennie/Warburton battle, Rennie has been spoken of quite highly. wales606, I forgot Blues had already played Edinburgh this season. What is that now then, 8 on the trot in all competitions?! Great record.

Morgannwg wrote:Yes Blues don't usually start this competition too well, and have to travel to France in their first game! I also look forward to the Rennie/Warburton battle, Rennie has been spoken of quite highly. wales606, I forgot Blues had already played Edinburgh this season. What is that now then, 8 on the trot in all competitions?! Great record.

Still don't like it when they are playing in Edinburgh - Untill last season, it has been a bit of a bogey ground for the Blues. :/

This must be one of the harder to predict pools. The Blues have not been too good since the Amlin win, London Irish seem to have an issue with welsh regions in the HC, Metro Racing are your typing french upstarts 9will they go all guns blazing or focus on T14), and Edinburgh can either blow hot or cold. I would hate to have to guess, but I have a feeling losing bonus points will be the decider in this pool.

If LBP's are going to be key, then I have to say that on current form, that may favour us, as we have picked up the LBP in every game we've lost this season (4). Our biggest defeat is by 5 points to Quins on the opening day, and we've had two 1 point losses.

Morganwwg you wanted me to reply and here I am. Of course Cardiff cannot be written off but I am sure people last year thought Cardiff would qualify from a relatively weak HC pool last season.

Racing Metro are an ambitious side and cannot be underestimated. London Irish are dangerous but inconsistent.

Both have impressive HC scalps under their belts. Neither have shown consistency in the HC though.

I personally feel Cardiff are living off former glories - e.g. their Amlin cup and semi which IMO aren't really that special. They aren't a bad side though.

Have they really been that good?

I generally my base my predictions on current form. This will be one of the most hotly fought pools in my opinion.

I have to agree with Londonwelsh.

1.Racing Metro
2.London Irish
3.Cardiff Blues
4.Edinburgh

beshocked wrote:Morganwwg you wanted me to reply and here I am. Of course Cardiff cannot be written off but I am sure people last year thought Cardiff would qualify from a relatively weak HC pool last season.

Racing Metro are an ambitious side and cannot be underestimated. London Irish are dangerous but inconsistent.

Both have impressive HC scalps under their belts. Neither have shown consistency in the HC though.

I personally feel Cardiff are living off former glories - e.g. their Amlin cup and semi which IMO aren't really that special. They aren't a bad side though.

Have they really been that good?

I generally my base my predictions on current form. This will be one of the most hotly fought pools in my opinion.

I have to agree with Londonwelsh.

1.Racing Metro
2.London Irish
3.Cardiff Blues
4.Edinburgh

A weak pool last year? I thought Northampton went quite far last year

After our fightback at Welford Road today, I am more confident than I was this time last week about our chances of making it out of the pool.

Yes I watched that game and London Irish looked very good, also considering they were away from home. Not sure if Shingler is a 13 though.

He's not, he's much better at 12, but is doing a job there with JJ and Ansbro injured and Delon likely to be banned.

Has been a very handy signing for us so far though.

He's a future international for Wales, I can't be certain in what position because we have too many 10's. LI were dominated up front, something the other 3 teams will target. Not sure of Racing's strength in the pack. Blues and Edinburgh aren't particulary of monster pack's but are capable of getting to LI there.

But that's the thing morgannwg, we got monstered up front by Leicester, and we still had enough threat in the team to score 3 tries and draw the match.

None of these three teams have a pack that compares with the Tigers, and I am confident about our backs being able to outgun almost any team in Europe if we have parity up front.

As I said, am more confident about this pool than I was last week now.

In an ideal world, you'd be up against a Blues team of Halfpenny, Cuthbert, Lualala, Roberts, James, Henson, Williams, Pretorious, Warburton, Molitika, Pattierson, Davies, (a tighthead), (a hooker), Jenkins. Blues have some new recruits for the front row and I know very little about them. Their backline there is also good and very big and it should take a lot to outgun that.

It will be interesting to see how not having a game this week affects the Blues. Have their World Cup guys had a run out since getting back?

No. I'm impressed with their caretaker coaches though. Roberts has said he thinks they should be given the jobs permanently.

Morgannwg wrote:In an ideal world, you'd be up against a Blues team of Halfpenny, Cuthbert, Lualala, Roberts, James, Henson, Williams, Pretorious, Warburton, Molitika, Pattierson, Davies, (a tighthead), (a hooker), Jenkins. Blues have some new recruits for the front row and I know very little about them. Their backline there is also good and very big and it should take a lot to outgun that.

Not sure what the coachs will picks, and Henson may not be in contention untill the 2nd round of fixtures, but the best Blues lineup would be

1. Gethin Jenkins
2. T Rhys Thomas
3. Tau Filise
4. Bradley Davies
5. Michael Paterson
6. Andreus Pretorious
7. Sam Warburton
8. Xavier Rush
9. Lloyd Williams
10. Gavin Henson (hopefully)
11. Tom James
12. Jamie Roberts
13. Casey Laulaula
14. Alex Cuthbert
15. Leigh Halfpenny

16. John Yapp
17. Scott Andrews
18. A Hooker (Ryan Tyrrell/Rhys Williams/Kristian Dacey)
19. Paul Tito
20. Mamma Molitika
21. Ritchie Rees
22. Dan Parks
23. Daffydd Hewitt

Blues start with 26-20 win over Racing Metro in Paris. Brilliant away win. They may have lost a few players to injury for a large chunk of the season but also have a few players recovering from injury to come back in.

Now, the Pool is Blues to lose.Massive win away. They will win the group. As predicted. Wont go much further though, imo.

If the Blues can get over their injuries and secure a home win against LI next week then its their pool to lose.

The only problem will be if Racing throw in the towel and LI get an away win their too, then it could come down to BPs. Also barring a loss to Edinburgh.

Blues certainly need to target an away win at Edinburgh and to try to unsettle LI at home.

I agree. They'll have to improve a lot if they want to progress in the KO stages.

Morgannwg wrote:I agree. They'll have to improve a lot if they want to progress in the KO stages.

Still, if they can raise their game then they have a good chance of a home 1/4 - they are capable of winning all their remaining matches, winning away at LI would be huge.

A home 1/4 and I wouldnt be suprised if they raise their game and get a semi (they beat Toulouse in Cardiff last time).

Fantastic result for the Blues

Has really put the pressure on my boys to win tomorrow.

well done Cardiff Blues for a well deserved win in a very chilly stade du manoir...and a warm congratulation to the very few Welsh fan that made it tonight and were singing in the bus back to paris (also saw some leinster fans on their way to montpelier I guess)

Apologies for not saying it in last post. Huge kudos to the Blues. Did the HC biz when it mattered.

Hope Leinster can have the guts to follow ye.

wales606 wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:I agree. They'll have to improve a lot if they want to progress in the KO stages.

Still, if they can raise their game then they have a good chance of a home 1/4 - they are capable of winning all their remaining matches, winning away at LI would be huge.

A home 1/4 and I wouldnt be suprised if they raise their game and get a semi (they beat Toulouse in Cardiff last time).

The Scarlets seem to manage beating the not nots quite often.

Ozzy

Glas a du wrote:

wales606 wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:I agree. They'll have to improve a lot if they want to progress in the KO stages.

Still, if they can raise their game then they have a good chance of a home 1/4 - they are capable of winning all their remaining matches, winning away at LI would be huge.

A home 1/4 and I wouldnt be suprised if they raise their game and get a semi (they beat Toulouse in Cardiff last time).

The Scarlets seem to manage beating the not nots quite often.

True, but then the Ospreys got a rude awakening there last year.

I had forgotten the Scarlets did the double over them the year before - that raises my hopes, not sure how LI form is this season though, they are 3rd in the Prem (but the WC seems to have affected some teams more) - ill have to wait to see how they do against Edinburgh.

Its the HC. Connacht so nearly turned over, the present, best (and sexiest) team in England, this evening. Just a lack of cool lost it for them. Quins took em for granted. And, in the end - near shat themselves.

Welcome to the HC.

Quine don't realise how lucky they actually are. They have everything going for them. They may have felt sorry for themselves, but when the chips were down they put their heads together and sorted themselves out. I think we can all learn from that. Eh, Gibbo

great result...

Another shocker in this pool, Edinburgh win away from home at LI.

This pool has had a dramatic weekend.

With the Blues record over Edinburgh it really is their pool to lose. Edinburgh look good though and will be desperate to qualify for the KO stages (for the first time?)

Think they've made the quarters once before, wales606, in 1852 or something?!