Heineken Cup: Pool 2

First topic message reminder :

Fans from all corners of Europe absolutely love the Heineken Cup. I will be doing just a brief preview of the European competition pool by pool with fans giving their opinion on who will top the pool, get runners-up spot and who will get absolutely tonked. On the eleventh of November the competition will officially start, two-time winners Leinster are the current holders.

Pool two – another tough pool that seems very tight:
Cardiff Blues
Edinburgh Rugby
London Irish
Racing Metro 92

The Blues have to be strong candidates for winning this group if they're on the try-scoring form they have previously been known for. They last tasted success in 2009 winning the EDF trophy and winning the Amlin Challenge Cup in 2010 after qualifying to get there on points. The past two seasons have seen them under-perform but also be seriously unlucky not to make the KO stages courtesy of French officials (Sale away, Northampton home the year after) and being grouped with the form teams of the competition those years (Toulouse, Northampton the following year). Their finest year in the Heineken Cup came in the 2008/09 season where they went unbeaten up to the quarter finals then losing to Leicester on a penalty shoot-out after sudden death. They are currently fourth in the Celtic League and have scored the most tries without their best players available to them. The first choice team is very strong, experienced and has a taste of success however there's still question marks over their front row (hooker and tight-head) coupled with the fact that they aren't sure whether they will be keeping current coaches Burnell and Baber; this could go against them.

Unfortunately, not much to write about Edinburgh in this competition. The under-resourced team enjoyed their best season under Andy Robinson in 2009, had he not been offered the Scotland Head Coach position they may have continued to move forward. With their internationals back from world cup duty their team are a formidable challenge in Murrayfield for the other three pool contenders; if the team get the ball to flying Dutchman Tim Visser they will score some tries. They have not had a good start to the season and currently find themselves placed eleventh in the Celtic League (one from the bottom). However they recently battled Munster and ended up winners so the team could be hitting winning form at the right time.

London Irish are the English club that is based in Reading. Here is another strong team that has been competitive in recent seasons. The furthest they have reached in the Heineken Cup was the semi finals in 2008, just losing out to four time winners Toulouse. A year later seen them reach the final of the English Premiership and lose it by one point to Leicester. Now we will see whether they have picked themselves up from the hurt and learnt how to win these big games. LI are currently fourth in the English Premiership which shows their recent form is good. The team is host to England internationals as well as some overseas stars such as the devastating Sailosi Tagicakibau. They have recruited intelligently this pre-season and last, bringing in rising stars such as Daniel Bowden of NZ and the promising Steven Shingler of Wales; two great attacking fly-halves that will battle for the number 10 jersey. The strength is their backline, they look to play an expansive game and will be hoping for a good platform layed down by the forwards.

Racing Metro first entered this competition in the 2010-2011 season after promotion to the top 14 the previous season. Whilst Stade Francais suffered with some financial difficulty, Racing received some large financial backing to then emerge as the aristocratic team of Paris. With that they have brought in some big names and now have a star-studded team that can challenge for this competition. I do wonder though whether their smash it up through Nallet and Chabal then let either Steyn or Hernandez take a shot at goal tactics will be enough to top this group. I am uncertain of their current form as they currently stand in seventh place in the Top 14, but definitely not a team to be written off just yet.

Morg's pick: In my eyes only I still see London Irish as being inconsistent so I will select Cardiff Blues as my pick to top this pool. I am expectant of big things from this team after seeing what their internationals can do on the biggest stage. The team has been able to handle what most of the French has thrown at them in recent seasons, Racing's smash and kick tactics against them will fail as did Wasps, Toulouse, etc did before them. The recent form over Edinburgh is good, I think it's going for something like 6 on the trot now, that includes two wins against them in last seasons Heineken Cup. They will go into those games confident and be targetting 8-10 points. This is where the pool could be won or lost as the other two contenders will be unfamiliar with the harshness of what the Gunners can throw at you up in Murrayfield.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Think they've made the quarters once before, wales606, in 1852 or something?!

, dont think they had the Heineken Cup back then....Heineken has only been brewed since 1873.

2003/04 HC

Only ever Scottish appearance beyond pools

Excellent result for Edinburgh.

Amazing how Edinburgh were written off at the start of this post.

Not saying they will get out the group, but the Scottish teams are no way as bad as people make out.

Not world beaters, but very competitive

Riskysports wrote:Amazing how Edinburgh were written off at the start of this post.

Not saying they will get out the group, but the Scottish teams are no way as bad as people make out.

Not world beaters, but very competitive

To be fair, Edinburgh are 10th in the Pro12, compared to the Blues in 5th (and have beaten Edinburgh away already this season), LI are 3rd in the Aviva and Racing are 5th in the top14.

I don't think it is that amazing that nobody really fancied them to win the pool Risky, as they are the tier 3 team, and the tier 4 team is RM92 who are only really that low due to limited European exposure.

If you looked at the bookies odds pre last week, Blues were favourites to top the pool, with little between RM92 and Irish depeding on what bookies you went to, with Edinburgh at the longest odds.

The bookies are nver that far wide of the mark, so I think people writing off Edinburgh was reasonably fair given their previous performances in the competition.

Agreed, I didn't expect Edinburgh to make much impact on this group following their poor start to the season in the Rabo12. Some good players at Edinburgh, as evidenced on Saturday, but Bradley hasn't really been getting the most from them.

Better results and performances since Leonard and Scott have joined up at 10 and 12 though, and if the team can start to settle, then there's no reason why they can't topple Racing Metro on Friday, and if they do, then Edinburgh are well into this group, especially if the Blues beat Irish.

No doubt Cardiff are in the driving seat but can they notch up some try bonus points?

beshocked wrote:No doubt Cardiff are in the driving seat but can they notch up some try bonus points?

They should be capable if they get their backs moving.

Even so, they are certainly capable of winning away in Edinburgh and London Irish. Im hoping they can win all their remaining games and secure a home 1/4 final, as I dont think we have the strength to win away from home in a 1/4.

At home we would have a decent chance of a semi final - then who knows .

Not expecting Edinburgh to win the group, but the amount of writing off of the Scottish teams is quite harsh.

The position in the leagues I feel has little relation to the teams, the world cup has made it very topsry turvey - look at Leicester - nearly last in the league

The Scottish teams are always hard to beat, and can put one over on most teams They are inconsistent but not bad.

Lets hope that they can both kick on and contiue to improve, as neither are the finished article yet

Anway, roll on this weekend for more stress and nail biting

Riskysports not sure you can compare Leicester to Glasgow and Edinburgh!

The likes of Aironi,Treviso and Leinster missed more players than you.

Leicester missed more than every other club in the AP.

Surely you can understand why the Scottish teams have been written off?

Can't underestimate you too much now though!

I may be being padantic (it has been know) but was surprised that they were written off so completely.

However, I do not actually expect them to get out of the groups, just think they can cause a few problems to any team

Well that's obvious. Any side can cause problems. Especially at home. Even Aironi.

Edinburgh have proven they can cause problems away too!

Maybe this HC is the fight back of the weaker sides.

Is it out of the question that the likes of Treviso,Connacht etc will prevail this weekend?

beshocked wrote:The likes of Aironi,Treviso and Leinster missed more players than you.

Leicester missed more than every other club in the AP.

Is that right?

Glasgow lost Low, Ktachuk, Hall, Thomson, Kellock, Gray, Barclay, Cusiter, Jackson, Morrison and DTH. That's on top of Max Evans leaving the club and Beattie being injured/fallen from grace.

Edinburgh lost Cross, Ford, Jacobsen, Lozada, Rennie, Talei, Blair, De Luca and Paterson, whilst Ben Cairns was ruled out through injury.

Pretty fair to say that both Scots sides were without fundamental compenents of their 1st XV.

Lineen has worked miracles at Glasgow keeping the side competitive during this period. The Scots sides have nothing like the depth of the celtic or GP counterparts.

The two Scottish teams have little depth and with their funds struggle to keep hold of their best players. They were pretty poor at the start of the season. All this on top of history is why they were written off, although I'm not sure Blues fans will be as confident of doing another double over Edinburgh now. With the transition of some international players back into their team the Scottish sides started to win games, even away from home. The Gunners are at home to Racing in the second round, if they win that then they'll be on a roll.

Glasgow and Edinburgh looked really good on the weekend, Glasgow have done for quite a few games now. Both have un-earthed two future Scotland outside halves and are making less mistakes with ball in hand which is something that's always held them back. Both may well have turned a corner. Next season I only see Edinburgh being able to prolong that, I think Glasgow will suffer with the losses of a few of their best players.

I also think describing them as inconsistent is an accurate description.

beshocked wrote:Riskysports not sure you can compare Leicester to Glasgow and Edinburgh!

The likes of Aironi,Treviso and Leinster missed more players than you.

Leicester missed more than every other club in the AP.

Surely you can understand why the Scottish teams have been written off?

Can't underestimate you too much now though!

Beshocked amazing comments we (and I think Glasgow) have has a whole trawlerful of players out

FES I am pretty sure they did.

Amazing in a good way or bad fly halffactory?

Not saying that Edinburgh and Glasgow didn't miss a lot.

Just naming 3 clubs which I believe missed more.

There is always egg on the face when you underestimate an opponent and lose.

Maybe Edinburgh and Glasgow will begin the golden age of Scottish rugby.

Amazed at your lack of knowledge

I think we lost maybe 12 perhaps 13 players including our entire first choice front row, and also many influential footballers including Rennie, Deluca, Mossy etc, so tell us how many did the Italians or even Leinster lose, because I dont know but I would hazard a guess it might not be that much.

We (the Scots) know where we are in the rugby world, and we would never shout from the roof tops that we are going to win the HC but lets just say we have won the first match and an away win to boot against Lon Irish ...... no mean feat, and we hope to sneak a win at home on Friday

However we know Racing Metro 92 will be hurting after their defeat to Cardiff and are likely to have Frenchmen Lionel Nallet, Sébastien Chabal and Fabrice Estabanez available as well as Argentinan 10 Juan-Martin Hernandez. So no you will rarely hear us spout that we should win any matches but to-date both Glasgow and us have a 100% record in the tournament

flyhalffactory nothing wrong with that.

I apologise for not knowing every single Glasgow and Edinburgh player at the world cup.

Leinster had about 15 missing I think. Treviso and Aironi 12 each.

Of course Edinburgh can win at home.

well beshocked ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

We can win away too like last week, and tonight we are sitting on top of the tree............. thats without 3 and you could argue 5 first team players out

Also well done to the Scarlets tonight for proving me right

Just hope North's injury isn't too bad and that Scarlets can carry on winning. Munster game's crucial.

Havent see the Scarlets match but 4 tries away from home , and a disputed Saints 1st try and a dying seconds 2nd try........... wow

Mate, there's no way I would have given that try. First Downey takes out Scott Williams off the ball after an attempted block on Jonothan Davies. Secondly, nobody, including the TMO could see the ball being grounded. During the game there was a lot of popping up from Hartley in the scrum and buring in from Sione Tonga' and Rhys Thomas.

Edinburgh vs Blues double header should decide this group.

Blues have a good record over Edinburgh, so im confident...ish.

Still a 1 : 1 tie in the 2 games and this pool could come down to BPs.

wales606................. lets hope so

I'll be nice to get back to a winning run against the Cardiff Blues

flyhalffactory wrote:wales606................. lets hope so

I'll be nice to get back to a winning run against the Cardiff Blues

Considering what the gunners did tonight... I would worry for the blues

flyhalffactory wrote:wales606................. lets hope so

I'll be nice to get back to a winning run against the Cardiff Blues

Considering what the gunners did tonight... I would worry for the blues

flyhalffactory wrote:wales606................. lets hope so

I'll be nice to get back to a winning run against the Cardiff Blues

Considering what the gunners did tonight... I would worry for the blues

So Maesteg. You worry for the Blues ja?

flyhalffactory wrote:wales606................. lets hope so

I'll be nice to get back to a winning run against the Cardiff Blues

Yeah, I remember you having the hoodoo over us a few seasons ago - I thought we might have beaten it with the 6 in a row victories - but Edinburgh look a different team at the moment, while the Blues are very unreliable.

:/ - We need to win our home game first up...lets hope our internationals are not all shattered after playing Australia

I have to say, that having played against Cardiff Blues and Edinburgh, I would say that Edinburgh look the better side.

I have seen posts saying that this pool is now the Blues to lose, but I don't see it like that.

I suspect that for me beloved Exiles, Toby Booth may now concentrate efforts elsewhere, and Racing Metro could realistically take 9 or 10 points from the double header putting them on 12/13 after 4 games.

If Edinburgh and the Blues both take their home games, then the maximum either is likely to have at that stage is 15 points, although I would say the most likely scenario would be Edinburgh 14, Blues 13, Metro 12, making it still game on going into rounds 4 and 5.

My tip for the pool at this stage......

Edinburgh

After today's scorelines for the Blues and Edinburgh,

Id like to change my prediction - Edinburgh to win home and away against the Blues to top the table.

You have to love the Heineken Cup. At present Cardiff Blues sit atop this pool and look in a commanding position. I accept that the pool is currently theirs to lose as the only unbeaten team in it.

However, due to bonus points, and the way the pool stage is structured, we find ourselves in a position where if Edinburgh can beat them at home (not inconceivable although the recent record against the Blues is poor) and London Irish can repeat this weekends performance against Metro next time out we would have a table that looks something like this (possible point ranges to include/exclude BP's shown)...

Edinburgh 13-14 points
Cardiff Blues 12-14 points
London Irish 11-12 points
Racing Metro 3-5 points

... at which point it would most certainly be game on again between the top three sides, and could make for an absolutely thrilling finale between the top three sides in January.

As a London Irish supporter that is sort of best case scenario for us if we win next week. If we lose then it's all over, but worse case scenario for us should we win, would be a five pointer for the Blues, which would see the table as

Cardiff Blues 17 points
London Irish 11-12 points
Edinburgh 9-11 points

Even that is not a hopeless position, it would just mean a requirement to come out all guns blazing in R5 to make up the gap.

Anyway, rambled enough now, but as I said at the start, you've got to love the Heineken Cup.

you've got to love the Heineken Cup.

Indeed. Its all still to play for for Edinburgh tho they have to beat Cardiff at home

you've got to love the Heineken Cup.

x2