Next England Coaches and Squad.

First topic message reminder :

If England are unable to appoint Clive Woodward as the supremo, then hopefully they will be able to get Graham Henry in there, who has expressed his interest in helping out the RFU. I honestly feel that unless England can find a high profile enough experienced replacement for Johnson, then they may have to stick with him. However I would feel that selection and overall control should be assisted by the surpremo (Woodward/Henry) If Johnson does stay then there will definitely need to be a shake up with the coaching staff. Mike Ford, Brian Smith and John Wells have to go. I don't mind Dave Aldred or Graham Rowntree staying on as they have done relatively good jobs.

I personally think there are enough talented young English coaches who can fill these roles. England are likely to choose Shaun Edwards as their first choice defence coach, however if that was to fall through I would personally go for Paul Gustard the Saracens defence coach as the second choice, he has done an outstanding job in the past couple of seasons. Forwards coach is an interesting choice and I've heard rumours England are interested in John Mallet. However I feel another young English coach Alex Sanderson of Saracens would be a quality choice, however only if Edwards was to get appointed as the defence coach, as you don't want a one club bias. Sanderson has been highly commended for the work he has done at Saracens and I feel he would gain instant respect from most of the players. Attack coach is a more difficult choice and the most obvious candidate I can think of would be Mike Catt.

Therefore if MJ stays as Head Coach I would like to see Shaun Edwards (Defence) Mike Catt (Attack) and Alex Sanderson (Forwards) replacing Ford, Smith and Wells.


Surrounding the issue of the next England squad, we have to take into consideration that players such as Steffon Armitage, Danny Cipriani, Jonny Wilkinson, Tom Palmer and James Haskell will be playing oversea's post world cup, so will not be available for selection. I would also like the England selection policy to get stricter. Meaning players such as Hendre Fourie, Shontayne Hape and Riki Flutey will no longer be viable for selection. However if the player has gone through the English age grade system (M.Tuilagi), was born in England or has an English parent or grandparents then exceptions can be made.

I also feel that the old guard needs changing, therefore players such as Moody, Easter, Shaw, Thompson, Cueto, Tindall will no longer be considered for selection. I appreciate Shaw and Moody have already retired from international rugby, however it is about starting afresh and these players represent the past rather than moving forward.

My potential EPS squad would look something like this...

BACKS

B.Foden (Northampton) M.Brown (Harlequins) C.Ashton (Northampton) C.Sharples (Gloucester) D.Armitage (L.Irish) M.Banahan (Bath) M.Tuilagi (Leicester) J.Joseph (L.Irish) B.Barritt (Saracens) O.Farrell (Saracens) T.Flood (Leicester) C.Hodgson (Saracens) B.Youngs (Leicester) D.Care (Harlequins) J.Simpson (Wasps)

FORWARDS

A.Corbisiero (L.Irish) M.Stevens (Saracens) J.Marler (Harlequins) D.Cole (Leicester) D.Hartley (Northampton) R.Webber (Wasps) D.Paice (L.Irish) C.Lawes (Northampton) D.Attwood (Bath) G.Robson (Harlequins) L.Deacon (Leicester) T.Croft (Leicester) C.Robshaw (Harlequins) T.Wood (Northampton) D.Seymour (Sale) L.Narraway (Gloucester) P.Dowson (Northampton)

*Mike Brown has been the best premiership full-back for two seasons now and is very unlucky to have Foden ahead of him in the pecking order, he deserves a place in the squad, with some fine performances for Harlequins.
*Jonathan Joseph has been in spectacular form for London Irish at outside centre this season, solid defensively with a surprising knack of winning turnovers, whilst he has pace to burn and has been compared in attacking style to Jeremy Guscott, potential star.
*O.Farrell is another potential star and has so much composure for someone so young. He is extremely talented and can play 10, 12 or even 13 to a very high standard
*J.Marler may not be the finished article in the scrum, but he can only get better with more experience. There is no doubting that he is one of the most imposing props in the loose and he is another player who would flourish in an England camp with quality coaches.
*G.Robson has been outstanding for Quins this season, he has bulked up considerably and seems to have added a bit of extra pace to his game. Authoritative in the lineout, a very good tackler and strong ball carrier. Deserves a chance.
*D.Seymour has been in tremendous form for Sale this season and is easily their stand out player. Deserves a place in the squad on form.

What do you think of my coach choices? Do you agree/disagree with my potential England squad?

I think it was probably because they saw the natural ability of Tindall and Hape as better options............doh

englandglory4ever wrote:Stevens = just not strong enough and too old to get any better.
Farrell=massive potential and capable of match winning things.
9 = Simpson. This guy has pace to burn. He must be given a go.
Croft = Too light to be a 6. Shown up horribly in RWC. Where is the next Richard Hill?
7 = We need a proper 7 who plays open-side rugby as it should be played. No one since Neal Back has come close.
8 = Who knows? Easter too slow. We need someone out of the Dallaglio template.

Our RWC Back row was very poor really. Just not good enough. Ditto for the half backs and Front Row..... Sort these and we will be back on the horse.

Centres should be Banahan and Tuilagi in 6Ns with Barritt on the bench. RWC winning centres must be powerful as a minimum.

EG4E, I agree with all of your post except for the final sentence: "RWC winning centres must be powerful as a minimum." That's simply not true. Who were NZ's centres? Ma'a Nonu ticks your box, but Conrad Smith is no giant. However, he punches above his weight. He's therefore proof that smaller guys, in addition to the other attributes they may have, are not necessarily deficient in defence. And look at the other finalists - Rougerie again ticks your box, but Mermoz is pretty much the same size as Smith, but, again, has solid defence. Meanwhile Australia got to the semis, with probably only Adam Ashely-Cooper topping 15st. Yes, teams will always struggle without a big back to fix defences, but you don't need to pick a team of giants.

Back on subject, I don't really mind who the new coaching team is, so long as we start to bring through some more dynamic players and pick a truly balanced team.

I wouldnt disagree with that....which raises the question....why has he been continuously overlooked by the Management....

Possibley because of a pretty average showing in the Saxons games during the 6N coupled with the fact Sarries used a kick and chase policy last season which meant that Barritt and indeed all of the backs never touched the ball off of set plays unless they were in the opposition 22. This season playing a more open game he is getting more of the ball and getting more chance to show his full skill set.

Yes, teams will always struggle without a big back to fix defences, but you don't need to pick a team of giants.

Argentina had a decent RWC without any big backs, there wasn't really a giant among them and the wingers in particular were tiny (Agulla, Camacho and Amorosino). It's a good point, size isn't everything.

Geordiefalcon this is obviously where we differ.

I think we have struggled in the backrow and the centres because it is all about finding combos that work and the right balance.

If you play Manu Tuilagi at outside centre you want someone with a bit more all rounded skillset than Banahan.

Being a big tackler doesn't necessarily mean you are a better tackler. Ask Conrad Smith and BOD. Not the biggest but two of the best tackling centres in the world.

Barritt is the defensive lynchpin of the Saracens backline. Does Banahan bring the same organising abilities to the table?

Allen and Barritt have been key players for their respective sides.

Twelvetrees has been highly touted but it's silly to pick someone when they don't often feature for their club. He might have the skillset but if he continues to play second fiddle...

Barritt has been a little bit under the radar - whilst the England management had been looking for someone with more attacking prowess.

Barritt last season had little opportunity to show his underrated attacking abilities because of Saracens tactics. With Hodgson at fly half and Barritt taking a more active role he has shown his talent.

Have to agree with Sam's wise words of wisdom.


Also Martin Johnson is fiercely loyal the persistence with certain players is evidence of this. Martin Johnson decided to pick Flutey because of his 2009 form,Tindall because of his experience and Hape, because he had stuck with him through thick and thin.

Beshocked

It is a good point re Allen, he does the same job defensively for Leicester as Barrit does for Saracens. As far as 12trees goes, I don't think anyone would suggest picking him for the team at the moment, but I do think it might be good to get him into the squad and see how he reacts to it. I know he isn't first choice for Tigers if Allen is fit and so this will seem like a crazy idea to a lot of people but I just have a gut feeling (and I could be completely wrong and hence why I am not a rugby coach) that he is someone who, like Manu, just has that something extra and if you put him in the international environment this would shine through. I say get him in there as a wildcard, there are 33 spots and now is the time to do it, its not like he will play but get him into the set-up and see what he can do.

killer938 I personally think you need to earn your call up with sufficient game time and sustained good form. If you agree that's fine.

Manu Tuilagi played a lot of games for Leicester last season, made a large impact and got his chance. Ditto Charlie Sharples getting into the England squad.

Other players like Ashton,Foden and Youngs had sustained game time in the AP before being picked.

In my opinion Twelvetrees hasn't really shown enough. He hasn't shown himself to be head and shoulders above the rest to be given preferential treatment.

Also whose place would Twelvetrees take? I just don't see room for him.

Allen is out until January so it will be interesting to see what form Twelvetrees is in when he returns from his ankle knock. Billy is a real game changer on his day but his performances are a bit to relient on whether it is his day or not. Barritt offers great form consistently even if Twelvetrees offers the potential for greater fireworks.

Also whose place would Twelvetrees take? I just don't see room for him

Tindall, Hape, Manu and Banahan were the centres for the RWC. At least Hape and Tindall will drop out so with Barritt's inclusion there would still be another space. If Banahan is deemed not good enough as well there would be lots of room and Twelvetrees was in and around the Saxons so does know the English system as well as Barritt. He might be a decent back up to Barritt as he would offer the combination of size and strength and although not the same level of organisational skill he would offer a cannon of a right boot and better play making skills. Though as I said above it would all depend on his form from when he returns to February (there's some big games to test him along the way).

I would love to see Twelvetrees and Barrity duking it out for the 12 shirt, could bring out the best of both of them.

Do you think Banahan will be dropped, his stocks seemed to drop during the WC and he only got what 20 minutes on the pitch all in all?

Banahan was probabley lucky to get that after his display vs Wales in the warm ups. Running the lines he likes off of the shoulder of the 10 he looked like a tanker slowly beaching itself on the Welsh defence. Depends heavilly on who is running the team by the 6N.

Johnno and Smith like big backs, Mallinder likes to have options in the backline but tends towards pace on the wings but big centres and Cockerill likes a mix in the centres with a footballer and a crash baller with no real preference on winger size.

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/squads.php?player=72874&includeref=dynamic

Billy has only started 15 premiership games +6 replacement in 3 seasons.


http://www.premiershiprugby.com/squads.php?player=33500&includeref=dynamic


Brad Barritt has started 56 games + 9 replacements in 4 seasons.


http://www.premiershiprugby.com/squads.php?player=19453&includeref=dynamic


Bananaman 69 starts +4 replacements in 5 seasons.

Look at the starts and replacements proportion.

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/squads.php?player=9210&includeref=dynamic

Jordan Turner Hall 77 starts + 6 replacements. That's in 6 seasons.


Just shows you how valuable these centres are to their clubs.

I would cheekily point out that Twelvetrees has played less but was at Tigers at the same time as Lions and England centre Ollie Smith, RWC finalist Dan Hipkiss, NZ international Aaron Mauger and England international Anthony Allen. A good chunk of Banahan's games have been on the wing where as Barritt has been up against erm Penny and Farrell? and JTH up against De Wet Barry and Tiesi?

I think selection needs to be done on form which is why I'm all in favour of Barritt being fast tracked into the first team. JTH could be a good shout as back up 12 as can Twelvetrees and possibley Banahan depending on form.

Wow you really seem to hype up those players with the titles you give them. I suppose the question we should be asking. What of those players you mentioned doing?

When was Allen last capped for England? Actually when did Hipkiss last play for England?

Aaron Mauger retired over a year and a half ago.

Also Ollie Smith and Hipkiss are both outside centres I believe.

Ollie Smith hasn't been at Leicester for over a year too.


Sam my point is Twelvetrees has been playing barely any rugby yet he's hyped up to the max.

He is over hyped because he, as I said above, can provide the fireworks to turn a game. Some of his performances in a Tigers shirt have been sensational. They haven't been nearly regular enough though, Twelvetrees plays at 12 and 13 hence why included the others. Although, he only re-joined the club 3 years ago but he wasn't in a position to step up to the first team at the time (there was also a lot of competition, more so than at other clubs). This season he looks more rounded and more consistent so now may be the time for him to make a proper challenge for the shirt.

He seems to be more highly rated outside of Leicestershire where as the Tigers know his limitations but appreciate the improvements.

First he needs to win the Leicester 12 shirt IMO before being considered for the England squad.

Who is actually considering him though? Apart from us on here and the crazed spouting of Sky pundits I don't think i've heard anything formt he international coaches to hint at him playing soon.

Far more likely to see Barrit and one other.

He was given and has held onto the Saxons shirt for the 6N friendlies and the Churchill Cup Yappy. That could be an idication towards the managements thinking, of course depending on who the management are by the 2012 6N who knows what they'll be thinking.

He does need to get a run of games at 12 against some big opposition if he wants to have any chance of jumping up the pecking order. With Allen out until January and 4 HEC games on the horizon he must be chomping at the bit to get back playing after this ankle injury. He started the season pretty well and his performance against Wasps was a record for the most points scored by a single Tigers player in a game.

Sam it's hardy surprising that a Leicester dominated England management are supportive of a Leicester player.

I am sure that if Billy wasn't a Leicester player there wouldn't be so much hype surrounding him.

If MJ and his cronies hold onto their spots as expected we'll see Billy partnering Tuilagi in the 6 nations.

Neither is it surprising you rate Twelvetrees highly.

Maybe you'll have to explain it to me plainly what has Billy done to deserve a place in the England squad?

Is he the first choice no 12 for his club? Erm. No.

Are there at least 3 EQ inside centres better than him in the AP? Yes

Has he played many games at 12 for his club? No, not really.

Does he stand out vs other 12s in the league? No

Is he consistent? No

Is he a key component of Leicester? No,not really.

The memory that stays in my mind is him missing a sitter at WR. You can use excuses like he wasn't warmed up etc. A professional rugby player should be ready for all eventualities.

The bottom line is he needs more gametime and experience. Also he needs to show some consistency.

He could well live up to the talent and be a future England great but he simply hasn't really achieved that much either.

The memory that stays in my mind is him missing a sitter at WR. You can use excuses like he wasn't warmed up etc.

You'll also remember then that his first act on coming onto the field was to drill the penalty 40 odd metres down field in order to set up the lineout to win that penalty. Billy is not a reliable enough kicker to be a front line option. His range is absolutely massive and he can slot them from pretty much everywhere but the important word there is 'can'.

I do rate him as a young talent but I don't rate enough to think he should start for England. Not unless some serious form comes into play over the next 4 months. He has stood out at a high level, smashing JTH whilst playing 10 vs Quinns last season at WR was highlight, going toe to toe with Berrick Barnes vs Australia was another good performance and let us not forget the fight back he orchestrated on his debut having been told he was starting only a couple of hours before the game.

Sam it's hardy surprising that a Leicester dominated England management are supportive of a Leicester player.

Tell Anthony Allen and Jordan Crane that. Worth noting that Stuart Lancaster the Saxons head coach (who picks the team) and Brian Smith the attack and backs coach for the senior team (who is likely to have had input towards how the backline was aligned for the Saxons) don't have any connections to Tigers.

Twelvetrees isn't ready to start for the senior side yet, but of all the future IC candidates he ticks the most boxes for desirable attributes and has been developing very nicely through the age grades. It's been unfortunate that he's at a club where he's had to compete with Allen, and Tuilagi coming through has meant he's had fewer opportunties as that would mean fielding a very young centre pairing.

If the Saxons get some decent fixtures this year I'd like to see him remain first choice for them, but the Churchill Cup is no longer running and the 6N will only see 2 games, against the Wolfhounds & Italy A. I think we'd profit more by getting him training with the EPS as 3rd or 4th choice centre.

Sam aren't both those players injured? Wow 2 coaches are non Leicester. At least 4 are.

Yes I am still bemused why the ref gifted you that penalty for him to drill 40 meres but anyway it made little difference.

He missed a sitter though.

I agree he is talented but not enough to be considered for the England squad unless there are too many injuries to contenders.

He has not had enough gametime or consistency as of now.

Yes I am still bemused why the ref gifted you that penalty for him to drill 40 meres but anyway it made little difference.

I'm still bemused as to how you were gifted the winning penalty when Stevens was clearly boring in at an angle in order to avoid Sarries going backwards at the scrum. It should have been blatant to the ref and especially to the assistant. I can't remember what the penalty that led to the lineout was for though. I had a nasty feeling as he lined it up, he didn't look comfortable.

Sam aren't both those players injured? Wow 2 coaches are non Leicester. At least 4 are

Three. Johnson, Rowntree and Wells. Ford's son plays for Leicester but his other son plays for Leeds and he was always a rugby league man.

Allen and Crane are injured now but were fit and in form previously and both were overlooked despite shortages in their preferred positions.

Well evidently Twelvetrees wouldn't be comfortable. A high pressure kick to win a game with the last kick against one of your current main rivals? I do sympathise with him - lots of pressure but to win the plaudits you got to nail the crucial kicks.

If he had nailed the sitter he would have been a hero.

You had other incidents going your way - swings and roundabouts.

There isn't that much difference between the two sides generally. It's been down to the opportunities taken on offer. Saracens nailed every kick on offer at WR and in the final. That was ultimately the difference.

MJ picked another Leicester man instead of Crane, so he kept it in the family.

Allen should have been picked but MJ is obsessed with Hape.

Ok Ford has Leicester links though because of his son.


Sam you have to mention the lows as well as the highs.

E.g. Farrell was very lucky in the AP semi final against Gloucester because he missed 4/5 kicks I believe.

Twelvetrees isn't a frontline place kicker, he's got a useful boot as a back up option, but he's never had the consistency for him to rightfully be given that role. As such he shouldn't be judged on that aspect of his play, especially with regard to playing at IC, it's his level of performance in the 12 role that should or shouldn't make him a candidate.

Good article Robshaw4england!

In coaching I'd like to see Johnson remain at top with the following;

Graham Henry or SCW overseeing as Elite performance director,or whatever other name we can cook up this time!

Defence - Shaun Edwards
Said when he went to Wales he'd like a position with England one day and his record with Wasps,Wales and Lions speak for themselves.

Attack - Brian Ashton or Mike Catt
Would love to see Ashton return as a pure attack/backs coach as I've always been a big fan of how teams he's coached in this position play,unlikely to happen though after how the rfu treated him post 2007. Mike Catts done a good job with the Exiles has a great rugby brain and would get us playing the right brand of rugby.

Forwards - Neil Back
Did a good job at Leeds with limited resources and before that coached Leicester A-team that won the reserves league as forward coach. Also who better to solve England breakdown woes than arguably (lets not forget Richard Hill!) our best forward of the pro era in this regard.

Would like to see Rowntree and Aldred continue in current roles.

On a different note would also be interesting to see Steve Black onboard as a fitness coach!

Squad (in pecking order):

1.Sheriden,Corbisiero
2.Hartley,Webber,Paice
3.Cole,Stevens,Doran-Jones
4.Lawes,Robson
5.Attwood,Parling
6.Croft,Wood
7.Robshaw,Saull
8.Crane,Dowson

9.Youngs,Care,Simpson
10.Flood,Farell

11.Cueto,Strettle
12.Allen,Twelvetrees
13.Tuilagi,Baritt
14.Simpson-Daniel,Ashton
15.Foden,Brown

That bearing in mind overseas based players are no longer elegible.

I wouldn't mind seeing someone like Graham Henry or Clive Woodward in the RFU as performance director (or whatever they're calling the position), with Johnson continuing as manager. Possibly a couple of changes to the coaching staff, but that would be up to Johnson.

I think with all the mess in the RFU at the moment, Johnson should be given a year's contract (if he even wants to continue), and then the RFU can get their house in order before looking at what Johnson has done in the year. If we have a good Six Nations and good tour of South Africa (I'd say 5 wins in the 8 games is a minimum requirement) then Johnson's contract could be extended to 2015. If not, we can bring in new guy and give him a 3 year deal ending after the 2015 World Cup and back him.

MJ picked another Leicester man instead of Crane, so he kept it in the family

Crane had already gone for the surgery by that point. I was thinking in past seasons where Crane was on stonking form but couldn't get a look in. He needs to sort out all his injury issues before he is given another cap and seeing as he won't be available until the start of next season that will be the 2013 6N as the earliest he should be called up.

Ok Ford has Leicester links though because of his son.

Having not worked there and his son only just stepped up from the academy games it's pretty unlikely that he knows anybody there very well. His only Union club job before being appointed by England was actually with Sarries.

Sam you are nit picking. There is a sizeable ex Leicester contingent in the England management. Yes I know about Ford but don't associate him with Saracens. His son does play for Leicester.

Maybe Mr Crane should have been picked in previous seasons but like Rees he has recently been crocked.

Difficult to pick a player when he is continuously injured.

Anyway you have nothing to fear your hero Billy will be picked.

Anyway you have nothing to fear your hero Billy will be picked

Not my hero or my preferred selection.

Sam you are nit picking. There is a sizeable ex Leicester contingent in the England management. Yes I know about Ford but don't associate him with Saracens. His son does play for Leicester.

His other son plays for Leeds and previously Saints. Why don't you want a former coach to be mentioned as being associated with Sarries? I fail to see how he is another strong Leicester link. Rowntree, Johnno and Wells certainly are a mix of ex-Tigers but Ford isn't and really his son is his only link to the club, his son that didn't join the club until the aforementioned coaches had left.

I'm surprised people still want to see Cueto in the squad. Is he really a form winger in the Premiership? I haven't been impressed with him for some time at club level. There are some very strong contenders for the wings at the moment.

Talk of Crane and Rees is pointless at the moment. The last thing England need to be worrying about is shoehorning injured players into the squad.

Easter performed strongly at the weekend, and as boring as it may be, he's still the man to beat. Hard to argue for anyone else on the basis of either form or experience. I'd say Waldrom is next behind him.

I watched the Leicester vs Irish game at the weekend. Parling must surely be in the next England squad. Very strong all-round lock that. He and Lawes (provided the silly late tackles can be coached out of him) would make a good unit, with two from Deacon, Robson and Attwood completing the contingent. Strong options there.

Apologies Sam. Ford has a link with Tigers. I should watch my words more. Is it as strong as Rowntree,Wells and Johnson? Of course not but it exists.

Ford didn't do a good job at Saracens and neither has he for England.

I said the England management is Leicester dominated which it is. If they were competent it would be fine though. They are not so be should sacked.

FES, i too think its time Cueto was replaced now....he was good whilst offering support to Ashton and Foden when they first came into the team, but they are experienced now...and we need a try scorer. Give Wade a shot...or any from Strettle, Ojo etc. We have plenty of choice at wing.

Strettle must be the unluckiest of English players with regards to injury. The guy is class but when did he last have a good run injury free.

FES as you and Geordie Falcon say Cueto is past his sell by date. Any of Sharples,Wade,Monye,Ojo,Strettle,Short etc would be worthy of taking his squad spot.

I agree FES about Rees and Crane. We'll have to wait till they are fit and in form again.

Depressing isn't it when Easter and Waldrom are likely to be our no 8 choices in the 6 nations?

Last season bedfordwelsh Strettle did. Not easy to score tries for Saracens. Scored on the weekend though.

You are right Geordie - good options at wing

Strettle-Monye-Sharples-Wade-Banahan (I dont mind him so much on the wing)

Youngsters - Tom Homer, Sam Smith, Seb Stegman, ect.

PS FES,

I thought Lawes was very good on the weekend....

Strettle must be the unluckiest of English players with regards to injury. The guy is class but when did he last have a good run injury free

He played well all of last season but Sarries kick heavy style meant only his kick chase abilities got a lot practice. He did combine with Short and Goode to form probabley the best back three combination in the AP last year though. I think Short overshadowed him a bit though as he has the pace and step but a lower centre of gravity and a bit more power.

I said the England management is Leicester dominated which it is. If they were competent it would be fine though. They are not so be should sacked..

Something needs to change. I'd like to see the defence and forwards coaches go the rest to be given the 6N. It all depends on what agreements the RFU have with the PRL about coach acquisition though, if there's an agreement to not poach coaches during a season then I'd wait until next summer and then overhaul the lot (I fail to see the point in appointing just coaches from outside, there needs to be strong AP experience in there). Unless of course the 6N goes well. Slight snag that MJ's contract runs out in December though.

GeordieFalcon wrote:PS FES,

I thought Lawes was very good on the weekend....

He was very good. Watched that game as well. Although not penalised for it (and it was marginal), he made yet another late hit in that game just before coming off. I know he's an aggressive player and a big tackler, and you'd never want to take out that aspect to his game, he seems to think that thumping players late off the ball is a sign of being a hard man. He seems to do it at least once every game. He should cut that out. It's already got him into hot water on several occasions and there's no need for it (and whatever anyone says it's far easier to pull out than he makes it look). Attwood is the same, great great potential (and already a very good player) but with a little more added discipline could be a top class international.

Another impressive player in that game was Ryan Lamb, who is steadily putting up a decent case to be re-considered for England. He's no Wilkinson when it come to defence, but his passing and kicking game has been excellent of late, and if England are looking to be more expansive and make more use of possession when they get it, then he's a worthy candidate.

Callum Clark is another coming on nicely at Franklins Gardens.

On the Wasps side that Lindsay fellow that came on at hooker is a monster. Get his throwing sorted and you could have some player there.

FES Ryan Lamb's an interesting player. A little bit of a dark horse for the 6 nations squad. Do you think he is consistent enough?

By the way what's happened to Shane Geraghty? he has seemed to fallen completely off the radar.

Sam agree about Strettle. From his perspective, not sure Saracens is the best club to showcase his attacking abilities. I am sure he's pleased to pick up silverware but must be frustated with the lack of ball the wingers get. For the record I do like him though as he's always lively.

Surprised that you at Leicester didn't try to snap him up as he would be a great contrast to the power of A.Tuilagi.

Yup I really like Short. Got huge potential IMO. He's got that nice balance of pace and power. He's deceptively strong for not a particularly big bloke.

I think the general gist is the potential youngsters coming through is good.

"On the Wasps side that Lindsay fellow that came on at hooker is a monster. Get his throwing sorted and you could have some player there.."

Yeah i think the same. Throwing is key for a hooker...so needs to sort that out...but he's a big powerful lad.

Surprised that you at Leicester didn't try to snap him up as he would be a great contrast to the power of A.Tuilagi.

Rumours around the time were they did. It was apparently a bit of a suprise that he hit the market and so Tigers weren't prepared finanically and so were out bid due to a) the constraints of the salary cap and b) Strettle wanting to be acknowledged as a first team player in terms of wage (which is fair enough).

By the way what's happened to Shane Geraghty? he has seemed to fallen completely off the radar

Playing for Brive but is apparently injured.

he made yet another late hit in that game just before coming off

On Southwell? It looked bad originally but when you watch the slow mo replay he only takes one step before contact after the pass has been made. There is little too no time for him to pull out without risking hurting himself. Even in the NFL where they are cracking down on late hits (particularly in the QB) the rules are that there must be no more than two steps before contact following the release of the ball. That's a good measurement for rugby as well.

Thanks for the info Sam? Why do some English players go to Brive? They seem to get injured or disappear into obscurity as soon as they arrive.

True Strettle must be on a hefty salary.

Ryan Lamb is a seriously talented 10 but rarely gets mentioned on here. At the moment I'd put him in the top 4 on form along with Flood, Farrell and Burns.

Burns mainly because he is kicking everything at the moment and scoring tries too.

EnglishReign Lamb has rarely been mentioned because he has been inconsistent and flaky. Of course on his day he has been excellent.

Now it seems he is living up to his potential.

Yeah i think when he first arrived he was a real hope, but he just never had the consistency. So he kind of went out of peoples thoughts as an England player.

Ill not hold my breath yet either, but if he could final make that potential real (which he now seems to be)...and CONSISTENT then i would have him straight in the EPS.

PS what impressed me on the weekend was some of his tactical kicking....

formerly known as Sam wrote:

he made yet another late hit in that game just before coming off

On Southwell? It looked bad originally but when you watch the slow mo replay he only takes one step before contact after the pass has been made. There is little too no time for him to pull out without risking hurting himself. Even in the NFL where they are cracking down on late hits (particularly in the QB) the rules are that there must be no more than two steps before contact following the release of the ball. That's a good measurement for rugby as well.

I don't think it was a penalty in this case, I was more making the general point that he keeps doing it. Sometimes marginal, sometimes not. But he hits with such a thud that it's very easy for it to look awful, and if he gets it even slightly wrong then he'll risk a yellow or red unneccesarily. This time I think he was just ok, but if you are going to charge with the shoulder towards a player shaping to kick the ball then you need to be very careful. I think Lawes needs to be mindful, that's all. At best he can be clumsy, and it cost him in the World Cup.

Lamb played well at Irish at the start as well. Geraghty was great for the Saints in the beginning too.

fES, although I think actual late hits from Lawes are very few and far between IF he gets a reputation (even if its undeserved) he will get penalised heavier.

Ackford in Telegraph (scary to think that if we don't make good decisions now we will scupper our chances in 2015 already ).

Do they stay or do they go?

It will not be the coaches’ decision as to whether they remain on the Rugby Football Union payroll into the 2012 Six Nations championship and beyond. Martin Johnson has yet to reveal his hand and much depends on what his declared intention will be.

Grievously wounded by England’s dismal World Cup campaign, the England manager has to decide if he genuinely thinks that he can make a difference. Up to departure for New Zealand, he would be entitled to feel that he had just about come up to scratch three years after coming into office.

England had a decent 12 months with a brace of victories registered against Australia and Wales, both of whom finished with much more credit than they did at the World Cup. Johnson learned on the job. In many ways it would be a waste if that knowledge were now to be junked. However, Johnson has to be honest about his failings as well as to how he sees the future.

Johnson’s coaching staff needs a shake-up. That is for sure. There has to be a natural evolution as well as accountability. Defence and scrummaging have been acceptable, the rest less so. Johnson most certainly needs a head coach, such as Northampton’s Jim Mallinder, to set the strategy. The manager has had a distinct attack coach [Brian Smith] and forwards coach [John Wells].

Someone needs to be in charge of the overall playing philosophy. That was noticeable by its absence in New Zealand. If Johnson feels change is necessary but does not feel able to part company with those he has worked with, he must stand aside.

It is time for bold decisions. Stark, self-referencing honesty is needed from him and operations director Rob Andrew. Johnson declared himself to be in charge in New Zealand, to be the public face of the Rugby Football Union. That was only acceptable up to a point. His boss, Andrew, should have stepped in when it all went horribly wrong. That is leadership, a singular failing of England’s.

Lack of discipline

Why didn’t Johnson, at the very least, drop Mike Tindall or, if he had really wanted to strike the fear of God into players, send him home? He should have done so.

Instead, Johnson played the loyalty card, stuck by his man and undermined England’s cause as well as his own status as a result. There is no doubt that the players were made aware of their responsibilities before the tournament. And there is little doubt that several paid little heed to such warnings.

Johnson was shown to be naive, weak even, and unless he recognises that then his future as England manager is compromised.

It was defence coach Mike Ford who delivered one of the biggest rollockings of the trip, chastising players for not giving their all. That has to be Johnson’s role. England were wayward off the field. Not surprisingly, they became so on the field. From hereon in, the boss has to be the boss. You never thought you might say it, but Johnson needs to toughen up in that regard.

Selection and captaincy

Markers need to be laid down now for the 2015 Rugby World Cup. England tried the slow burn towards the tournament in New Zealand and it got them nowhere. Steve Borthwick had a season too long at the helm while the steadfast refusal to acknowledge the limitations of Shontayne Hape as an international centre came back to bite England when they shifted first to Tindall and then, in desperation, Toby Flood, the poor unfortunate who was given a few days notice before the World Cup quarter-final against France.

What is more, why, oh why, did England make the seemingly seminal decision to choose Flood ahead of Wilkinson 18 months ago, only to change their mind a few weeks before leaving for New Zealand? Their attacking game became clunky and stilted.

So, over the next nine months, through the 2012 Six Nations Championship and on into the three-Test tour of South Africa, England have to blood the likes of Saracens’ midfield back Owen Farrell, Quins’ back-row forward, Chris Robshaw, wings, Charlie Sharples [Gloucester] and Christian Wade [Wasps] and develop the underused likes of Northampton flanker, Tom Wood, who can do for England what Sam Warburton has done for Wales.

Tell it like it is, Jonny

When Jonny Wilkinson weighs in with criticism, you know things are bad. Every young, aspiring England player ought to be made to read Wilkinson’s words serialised yesterday in a newspaper from his autobiography, Jonny. These are but brief extracts.

“What I cannot understand is the naivety of people [players] going out to the extent they did and it not crossing their minds that it would find its way back to the media.

“I cannot believe that it has come to this, where defence coach, Mike Ford, has to ask a group of players to buckle down and give it a bit more. The only reason that you don’t change things, or you don’t work hard enough, is that it doesn’t matter enough to you. And, unfortunately, what that means is that the other 29 guys in the squad don’t matter enough to you.”

You don’t have to be an obsessive like Wilkinson. But you do have to care about your rugby.

Has Ackford been on this site...as this is what we have all been saying for ages....