Next England Coaches and Squad.

by robshaw4england Sat 29 Oct - 22:27

First topic message reminder :

If England are unable to appoint Clive Woodward as the supremo, then hopefully they will be able to get Graham Henry in there, who has expressed his interest in helping out the RFU. I honestly feel that unless England can find a high profile enough experienced replacement for Johnson, then they may have to stick with him. However I would feel that selection and overall control should be assisted by the surpremo (Woodward/Henry) If Johnson does stay then there will definitely need to be a shake up with the coaching staff. Mike Ford, Brian Smith and John Wells have to go. I don't mind Dave Aldred or Graham Rowntree staying on as they have done relatively good jobs.

I personally think there are enough talented young English coaches who can fill these roles. England are likely to choose Shaun Edwards as their first choice defence coach, however if that was to fall through I would personally go for Paul Gustard the Saracens defence coach as the second choice, he has done an outstanding job in the past couple of seasons. Forwards coach is an interesting choice and I've heard rumours England are interested in John Mallet. However I feel another young English coach Alex Sanderson of Saracens would be a quality choice, however only if Edwards was to get appointed as the defence coach, as you don't want a one club bias. Sanderson has been highly commended for the work he has done at Saracens and I feel he would gain instant respect from most of the players. Attack coach is a more difficult choice and the most obvious candidate I can think of would be Mike Catt.

Therefore if MJ stays as Head Coach I would like to see Shaun Edwards (Defence) Mike Catt (Attack) and Alex Sanderson (Forwards) replacing Ford, Smith and Wells.

Surrounding the issue of the next England squad, we have to take into consideration that players such as Steffon Armitage, Danny Cipriani, Jonny Wilkinson, Tom Palmer and James Haskell will be playing oversea's post world cup, so will not be available for selection. I would also like the England selection policy to get stricter. Meaning players such as Hendre Fourie, Shontayne Hape and Riki Flutey will no longer be viable for selection. However if the player has gone through the English age grade system (M.Tuilagi), was born in England or has an English parent or grandparents then exceptions can be made.

I also feel that the old guard needs changing, therefore players such as Moody, Easter, Shaw, Thompson, Cueto, Tindall will no longer be considered for selection. I appreciate Shaw and Moody have already retired from international rugby, however it is about starting afresh and these players represent the past rather than moving forward.

My potential EPS squad would look something like this...

BACKS

B.Foden (Northampton) M.Brown (Harlequins) C.Ashton (Northampton) C.Sharples (Gloucester) D.Armitage (L.Irish) M.Banahan (Bath) M.Tuilagi (Leicester) J.Joseph (L.Irish) B.Barritt (Saracens) O.Farrell (Saracens) T.Flood (Leicester) C.Hodgson (Saracens) B.Youngs (Leicester) D.Care (Harlequins) J.Simpson (Wasps)

FORWARDS

A.Corbisiero (L.Irish) M.Stevens (Saracens) J.Marler (Harlequins) D.Cole (Leicester) D.Hartley (Northampton) R.Webber (Wasps) D.Paice (L.Irish) C.Lawes (Northampton) D.Attwood (Bath) G.Robson (Harlequins) L.Deacon (Leicester) T.Croft (Leicester) C.Robshaw (Harlequins) T.Wood (Northampton) D.Seymour (Sale) L.Narraway (Gloucester) P.Dowson (Northampton)

*Mike Brown has been the best premiership full-back for two seasons now and is very unlucky to have Foden ahead of him in the pecking order, he deserves a place in the squad, with some fine performances for Harlequins.
*Jonathan Joseph has been in spectacular form for London Irish at outside centre this season, solid defensively with a surprising knack of winning turnovers, whilst he has pace to burn and has been compared in attacking style to Jeremy Guscott, potential star.
*O.Farrell is another potential star and has so much composure for someone so young. He is extremely talented and can play 10, 12 or even 13 to a very high standard
*J.Marler may not be the finished article in the scrum, but he can only get better with more experience. There is no doubting that he is one of the most imposing props in the loose and he is another player who would flourish in an England camp with quality coaches.
*G.Robson has been outstanding for Quins this season, he has bulked up considerably and seems to have added a bit of extra pace to his game. Authoritative in the lineout, a very good tackler and strong ball carrier. Deserves a chance.
*D.Seymour has been in tremendous form for Sale this season and is easily their stand out player. Deserves a place in the squad on form.

What do you think of my coach choices? Do you agree/disagree with my potential England squad?

by tomathy Wed 2 Nov - 16:27

radelven wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:Even just reading the press headlines, the signings, the players that attract the excitement are predominately NWQ. Compare that to the start of the season in Wales wher talk has been of the fantastic skills of Steffan jones, Matthew Morgan etc etc...!

The needs to be a priority on youth talent, but there also has to be an interest.

I presume you mean NEQ?

I don't know what press you are reading, but that isn't the case. The names causing excitement in the English media covering games have been those progressing from the U20s like Joseph, Wade, Ford, Farrell and young players like Wallace, Trinder, May, Homer, Smith.

The only big foreign signings this season I can think of are Donald for Bath and Smit for Saracens (questionable how much he'll actually be playing).

Nick Evans has been getting his usual plaudits, but Quins have won every game this season and he's the only NEQ first choice player (if you count Fairbrother as first choice over Johnston). Guys like Robson/Robshaw/Wallace/Dickson/Turner-Hall/Monye/Smith/Stegmann/Brown have been playing very well for us as well.

Suspect maestegmafia's comment is just a wum anyway.

by maestegmafia Wed 2 Nov - 16:57

tomathy wrote:Suspect maestegmafia's comment is just a wum anyway.

Do you care to explain why you think that I am trying to wind anyone up? Or even why I would want to?

Don't judge others on your own poor standards...!

by maestegmafia Wed 2 Nov - 17:09

Michael Averis for The Guardian wrote:
Martyn Thomas is acting chief executive of the Rugby Football Union. Photograph: Action Images
The confusion at the top of English rugby – and questions about the future of the England team manager, Martin Johnson – could be addressed on Wednesday when the Rugby Football Union's board decides what it wants to do with Martyn Thomas, the acting RFU chief executive.

The board meeting on Wednesday will be the first time the RFU's directors have discussed England's performance at the World Cup, where they lost in the quarter‑finals and caused embarrassment off the field. Separately, the board has been warned that retaining Thomas will paralyse governance at Twickenham until the new year and might even risk England's hosting of the next World Cup, in 2015. More than 130 clubs have called for Thomas's dismissal, saying that if the board does not sack him they will demand a special general meeting, at which they will force the issue with a vote of no confidence.

Thomas has been at the top of English rugby for more than six years, since he beat the former England coach Jack Rowell to be chairman of the RFU board. Rowell, a leading industrialist and a successful coach with Bath, was the choice of Twickenham's secretariat and the professional clubs: Thomas's election was a considerable surprise. He was thought to be the force behind the unpleasant departure of Brian Ashton as England coach, in 2008, but calls for his head surfaced in earnest in June, when he sacked John Steele a year after hiring him as chief executive.

There were moves to unseat Thomas when a report on the Steele sacking, written by the RFU's disciplinary officer, Jeff Blackett, pointed the finger in his direction. Thomas threatened to sue for defamation if the report was published and though he stood down as chairman he assumed Steele's role until a full-time chief executive could be found.

Thomas had planned to become the chairman of the committee organising the 2015 World Cup, but the clubs have been angered by some of his more recent actions, particularly commissioning the former England prop Fran Cotton to review the structure of England rugby. Immediately after England's defeat by France in Auckland, Thomas gave Johnson until 24 October to say if he wanted to continue as England manager and announced that Cotton would lead an independent review. Cotton had been quoted as saying: "Martin has now been in charge three-and-a-half years and it is very difficult to understand what style of play this England rugby team is all about."

The commissioning of Cotton was questioned by the Professional Game Board, which represents senior clubs and players as well as the RFU and which also announced an inquiry.

Thomas denied giving Johnson a deadline – "it was merely an informal situation," he said – and has since stood by the manager. The England players have refused to take part in Cotton's review. According to the Rugby Players Association (RPA), they will report only to the PGB.

The chairman of the management board, Paul Murphy, has been shown letters from 130 clubs demanding Thomas's departure. "The bottom line is that Thomas has to go, not just as acting chief executive but as an RFU member of the IRB and the Six Nations," said one RFU member last week. "Given what has gone on, he should also be made to stand down as chairman of Rugby World Cup 2015."

The former England manager Geoff Cook described Thomas as "too autocratic and confrontational" and the former chief executive Francis Baron has offered to return. "When things go wrong on your watch, it's a well-established tradition in British public life that you do the honourable thing," Baron said. "But decision-making in the RFU now seems to be focused on self-preservation, not on taking the game forward."

Thomas has survived two votes of no confidence at meetings of the RFU council and has been supported by Murphy and the RFU president, Willie Wildash, who said he was "highly valued by the international rugby community". However, South Africa has suggested taking over as host for 2015 and Australia has asked if the turmoil is harming planning.

There will be a proposal today to wind up the Cotton report; Rob Andrew, the RFU's professional rugby director, and the Premiership clubs are also reporting on the World Cup. According to the RPA the players – most of whom have been publicly supportive of Johnson – have been "extremely honest" about their time in New Zealand and "are adamant that England must be in the right shape mentally, physically and technically to mount a credible challenge to the 2015 Rugby World Cup."

Facing the axe

Leading figures who could be for the chop at Wednesday's RFU board meeting:

Martyn Thomas acting chief exec

Has survived two votes of no confidence but is unlikely to last much longer, given that the clubs are determined to see him removed

Rob Andrew operations director

The former England fly-half has been appointed to lead yet another review into the national team. Lacks credibility

Martin Johnson team manager

Iconic former-captain oversaw a disastrous World Cup, in which an ill-disciplined England played in a less-than-attractive manner

by DaveM Wed 2 Nov - 17:21

formerly known as Sam wrote:
You got figures to support that?

Easy to pick the area we seem to have an influx of young talent in. Things aren't so rosy when you look at English 10s getting regular exposure in the AP ditto young English tightheads.

I stole some Juggler figures a month or two back showing the high percentage of EQed players in the AP. I'd imagine back in the amateur era there may have been more EQed players, but I think there are more young players and fewer journeymen around than there were. I can remember when the only centre prospects seemed to be Powell and Waldouck, and saying England have an influx of young talent in the centres would have been unthinkable 3 years ago.

10 isn't one of the stronger positions, but you still have Burns, Clegg, Heathcote and Ford this season. Carlisle is also getting game time.

Similarly, there are far more LHs than THs, but Thomas, Brookes, Newport-Palmer and McIntyre have all got game time this season (the latter possibly just in the LV), and are all under 22. I'm hoping Vunipola might specialise on TH too.

Post 2007 there were basically a handful of promising players, now there are dozens. The 2007 Saxons looked like this:

England Saxons: Cipriani; Sackey, Sorrell, Mordt, Voyce; Barkley, Wigglesworth; Hatley (capt), Paice, Brooks, Blaze, Evans, Haskell, Skinner, Dowson.
Replacements: Thompson, Forster, Mercey, Croft, Crane, Dickson, Erinle.

I reckon this year's will look better. A large proportions of the 2011 u20 side are involved reguarly in the AP already. And the Championship, which someone involved with Bristol is supposed to have suggested is close to the quality of the AP a few years back, is used to give plenty of young players game time.

If Cockerill really wants to walk away from English players then I'd be surprised. He'd certainly be going against the grain.

by formerly known as Sam Thu 3 Nov - 9:44

If Cockerill really wants to walk away from English players then I'd be surprised. He'd certainly be going against the grain..

It's more walking away from English players likely to called up internationally. A lot of clubs have steady English players and are content in the knowledge they have little chance of a call up. All teams in the AP (with the exception of Quinns) have a decent number of foreign players to call upon in case of call ups. Cockerill was just musing upon increasing that where as recently he has been keen to bring through young English players. See his signings in the summer; Young, Kitchener, Brookes, Tait and Morris.

He's just frustrated with the lack of motivation to bring through England internationals. 6 graduates from the Tigers academy (Cole, Deacon, Croft, Moody, Youngs and Manu) took part in the quarter final for England. Tigers contributed 7 players of the 33 involved and yet were rewarded with a threadbare team and £30k per player (of which one is still injured). It'll be similar during the 6N, it's less of an issue at Tigers but what will happen if a large chunk get called from Quins or LI? Will they follow the Falcons route and release the inefficient internationals? That's not good for English rugby.

by englandglory4ever Thu 3 Nov - 10:35

Stevens = just not strong enough and too old to get any better.
Farrell=massive potential and capable of match winning things.
9 = Simpson. This guy has pace to burn. He must be given a go.
Croft = Too light to be a 6. Shown up horribly in RWC. Where is the next Richard Hill?
7 = We need a proper 7 who plays open-side rugby as it should be played. No one since Neal Back has come close.
8 = Who knows? Easter too slow. We need someone out of the Dallaglio template.

Our RWC Back row was very poor really. Just not good enough. Ditto for the half backs and Front Row..... Sort these and we will be back on the horse.

Centres should be Banahan and Tuilagi in 6Ns with Barritt on the bench. RWC winning centres must be powerful as a minimum.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 3 Nov - 10:45

englandglory4ever wrote:Stevens = just not strong enough and too old to get any better.
Farrell=massive potential and capable of match winning things.
9 = Simpson. This guy has pace to burn. He must be given a go.
Croft = Too light to be a 6. Shown up horribly in RWC. Where is the next Richard Hill?
7 = We need a proper 7 who plays open-side rugby as it should be played. No one since Neal Back has come close.
8 = Who knows? Easter too slow. We need someone out of the Dallaglio template.

Our RWC Back row was very poor really. Just not good enough. Ditto for the half backs and Front Row..... Sort these and we will be back on the horse.

Centres should be Banahan and Tuilagi in 6Ns with Barritt on the bench. RWC winning centres must be powerful as a minimum.

The answer to 6 and 8 is Robshaw (compared to Hill many times) and Crane imo. Not sure about 7.

by tomathy Thu 3 Nov - 11:00

maestegmafia wrote:
tomathy wrote:Suspect maestegmafia's comment is just a wum anyway.

Do you care to explain why you think that I am trying to wind anyone up? Or even why I would want to?

Don't judge others on your own poor standards...!

I never post wind-up comments. I was speculating that your comment along the lines of "the problem for england is that the players who have been shining in the premiership during the world cup have been non-english, unlike in wales where the talk has all been of brilliant young welsh talent" was a bit of a wind up since it's so factually incorrect that I couldn't believe you meant it seriously.

by formerly known as Sam Thu 3 Nov - 11:19

Centres should be Banahan and Tuilagi in 6Ns with Barritt on the bench. RWC winning centres must be powerful as a minimum..

Was trying to take your post seriously but come on, Banahan should never be in the centres when we have the options we do. Despite his size he couldn't shrug of a high tackle from Shane Williams. He really is not currently ready for international rugby. Barritt on the other hand looks capable of stepping up.

Post 2007 there were basically a handful of promising players, now there are dozens. The 2007 Saxons looked like this:

England Saxons: Cipriani; Sackey, Sorrell, Mordt, Voyce; Barkley, Wigglesworth; Hatley (capt), Paice, Brooks, Blaze, Evans, Haskell, Skinner, Dowson.
Replacements: Thompson, Forster, Mercey, Croft, Crane, Dickson, Erinle.

And there were plenty of caps for that team; Cipriani, Sackey, Voyce, Barkley, Wigglesworth, Haskell, Thompson, Croft, Crane and Erinle all got caps. Blaze would have surely got caps had it not been for injury and Dickson is equally unlucky to have been injured during Englands scrum half crisis this summer. A good chunk of those players were considered very promising at the time but some fell away for various reasons and that just happens when you talk about potential.

by beshocked Thu 3 Nov - 11:22

rory gallagher you can compare a player to Richard Hill but it's just hot air till the player actually does anything close to the great man.

Crane is injured. Him and Rees have been part of the walking wounded for some time. No one ever mentions Tom Rees anymore. Poor lad.

In my opinion Croft isn't a traditional blindside. Why doesn't he become a 7?

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Thu 3 Nov - 11:45

I can't see him as a fetcher either tho, beshocked?

by formerly known as Sam Thu 3 Nov - 11:48

I can't see him as a fetcher either tho, beshocked?.

Not all 7s are fetchers theses days and we don't have a lot of fetchers available to us.

by englandglory4ever Thu 3 Nov - 11:58

"Not all 7s are fetchers theses days and we don't have a lot of fetchers available to us."

And there lies the problem! A good international class, RWC winning 7 must be a fetcher IMO.

Sam: Bath are playing Banahan at 12 and he is doing very well. He has good distribution skills as well as being the physical threat. Exactly what England need actually.

by killer938 Thu 3 Nov - 12:07

Barrit has the same skills (he may not be as big as Banahan but he is definitely physical enough), he is a better distributor (in my opinion) and something that may be overlooked but is highly important, especially at international level, he can run a defense, he is an organiser. If you are going to play Manu (which again in my opinion you must do) then having a Barrit inside him is key at the moment. He is getting better day by day but he still needs that guy inside him to run the defense and I just don't see Banahan as someone who can do that. Banahan may be a good player but I see Barrit as a much better one.

by englandglory4ever Thu 3 Nov - 12:18

Barritt also speaks with a SA accent. I'd prefer to keep the imports to a bare minimum and not end up like Saracens...... Saracens are beginning to look like a side for retired SA S15 players.

by englandglory4ever Thu 3 Nov - 12:23

"and something that may be overlooked but is highly important, especially at international level, he can run a defense, he is an organiser."

Barritt has not been tested at test level. Banahan is young and has been around the England team for a couple of seasons now. Banahan is infinitely more experienced at international level than Barritt.

by killer938 Thu 3 Nov - 12:29

Yes, and picking the experienced players worked so well in the WC.....hmmm. Also, he may have more experience for England but what has that got to do with running the defense? Oh and I would ask how you are supposed to gain experience without playing but that would just be a silly question, right?

by Geordie Thu 3 Nov - 13:01

"The answer to 6 and 8 is Robshaw (compared to Hill many times) "

Really??? I've never heard that once...and its laughable to me....

He looks a different ype of player to me....more physical noticeable, whereas Hill was like the silent assassin....

Oh and whilst i actually rate Banahan and still think he could be an answer for 12...i cant forgive him for letting Shane get him..... Very Happy

by englandglory4ever Thu 3 Nov - 13:44

"Also, he may have more experience for England but what has that got to do with running the defense?"

A question and answer in one sentence. You should read it again and digest.

by Geordie Thu 3 Nov - 14:00

A player could have 100 caps....but if he doesnt have the skills to lead or organise a defence then he wont have them.....

People have different skill sets.

Have seen a bit of Banahan this season (not loads) but his handling is far better than i actually thought.

I'd like to see both trialled then one inked in and given plenty of time....

by killer938 Thu 3 Nov - 14:37

I have read what I said and what you said and I do not see the problem. As GeordieFalcon said (which is also what I said), having experience of playing for England has nothing to do with having the ability to organise a defense. Obviously, experience means you get used to what you should do as part of the defense but that is completely different to running it. I am sure Banahan would have no problem doing what he is asked to do as part of the team but I do not feel he has the skillset to organise the defense inside Manu which, with his youth and exhuberence, he still needs. Although Barrit has no experience with England, he runs the Saracens defense in the backline on a week to week basis and it is the best defense in England. I do not feel that is a coincedence. He also has the attacking ability which Tindall, who up until now has organised the England defense, does not have. I just personally think he is just a better 12 than Banahan and Manu is a better 13 and so Banahan would not get into my team. I would like to see those two start together and given time outside Flood. Give them the 6 nations and see what happens.

by propdavid_london Thu 3 Nov - 15:07

Killer,

I think that is pretty much the back line that we would all like to see for England.

Youngs/Care-Flood-Cueto/Sharples-Barritt-Tuilagi-Ashton-Foden.

How long is Youngs out for? Simpson should get a bit of gametime.

I dont know what it is, I've head said that Easter has a good rugby brain but has other weakness. Other No.8's and I'm thinking Crane here, are better athletes or younger ect. but might not have that rugby head - I put Banahan in that category too. There are less imposing characters out there that will be more likely to have a greater impact.

6N pack I would like to see -

Corbis-Hartley-Cole-Lawes-Deacon-Robshaw-Croft-Easter.

Back-up to get gametime - Waldrom-Wood-Attwood-PDJ + more

I dont think that Houndrie Fourie will just be dropped from the squad-he may feature in the 6N.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 3 Nov - 15:17

GeordieFalcon wrote:"The answer to 6 and 8 is Robshaw (compared to Hill many times) "

Really??? I've never heard that once...and its laughable to me....

He looks a different ype of player to me....more physical noticeable, whereas Hill was like the silent assassin....

Oh and whilst i actually rate Banahan and still think he could be an answer for 12...i cant forgive him for letting Shane get him.....

I am surprised you haven't heard this comparison.. Robshaw is more physical and noticeable but with the way the game has moved on players are generally more physical. I think it is just his work rate and leadership that has him compared to Hill.

An example from his wikipedia page:

"On 12 December 2008 Will Greenwood declared Robshaw was pushing for international honours due to his current form, and he was fighting for a place on the upcoming Lions tour to South Africa, as an 'uncapped' Lion. Greenwood also went on to compare Robshaw to the World Cup winning blindside flanker, Richard Hill."

by Geordie Thu 3 Nov - 15:34

"An example from his wikipedia page"

A highly reliable source Rory Wink

I hope Robshaw is given a bit of a chance...cos he has deserved it...and would add a bit of bite to the back row.

I'd like to see.....

6 Robshaw
7 Wood
8 Easter

With Fearns (8) and Wallace (7) being given gametime.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 3 Nov - 15:42

GeordieFalcon wrote:"An example from his wikipedia page"

A highly reliable source Rory

I hope Robshaw is given a bit of a chance...cos he has deserved it...and would add a bit of bite to the back row.

I'd like to see.....

6 Robshaw
7 Wood
8 Easter

With Fearns (8) and Wallace (7) being given gametime.

I knew you would point out the fact that was off wikipedia.. it was the fastest comparsion I could find to show you an instance of where it has been said. There have been plenty of articles on Robshaw where I have seen the comparison be made, and I can see why they are compared also.

by Geordie Thu 3 Nov - 15:48

If he performs half as good as Hill did then he'll be a welcome to the England back row....

I would start him at 6, with Wood as the 7 as he has many of the 7 skills particularly strong at the breakdown...and a bonus lineout option.

I wouldnt go with Robshaw immediately for Captain though...let him bed in.

by yappysnap Thu 3 Nov - 15:51

How depressed are we all going to be to see a backrow of Croft, Fourie, Easter?

by propdavid_london Thu 3 Nov - 15:56

A new manager might come in with new back room staff with whole new ideas on the EPS - look at what Lievromont did in his first 2 seasons! The international caps and combinations being churned out were huge. Would the RFU let a new head come in and make that number of changes - and in the process loose a good number of games in a rebuilding phase - I dont think so!

Johnson has been given the benefit of the doubt because of his playing pedigree and public image - another head coach would have gone the way of Robinson and Ashton a while ago.

by Geordie Thu 3 Nov - 15:59

Yappy,

If the new forwards Coach has the front five playing like demented lunatics....at pace......then ill take that back row.....but if Wells has them playing like the rubbish they have been...then that back row will not be enough....and ill be depressed....

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 3 Nov - 16:03

Actually, if you can get over the fact Fourie isn't actually English he is probably the right man to play openside until you find one. A backrow this 6 nations of Robshaw, Fourie and Easter would probably be one of the best you could play as things stand. It would be the first time you have actually played a balanced backrow in a long time.

by beshocked Thu 3 Nov - 16:08

Englandglory4ever nice excuse. You won't ever know how good a player is at international level till you try them!

We already know Banahan is a mediocre international at his best. He couldn't get past someone half his size in a 1vs1!

Banahan looked good vs Ireland......

Have you actually ever seen who plays for Saracens? Most of Saracen's players are in their prime or upcoming exciting youngsters.

Brad Barritt makes a lot of tackles. Is also starting to score more tries. 3 this season in 7 games.

Please don't get me started on that overrated journeyman Fourie!!

by killer938 Thu 3 Nov - 16:31

Propdavid

I would love to see Sharples given a go instead of Cueto. Now is the time to try these players, as with Barrit. The best two IC in the country weren't taken to the WC, one has started the season not that great and is now injured (Allen) and one has carried on where he left off last season (Barrit) so I don't see how you don't play him now. I personally would love to see him throw these players in, not worry about results straight up and give them a go. Assuming Youngs is fully fit then I would start the backline of

Youngs
Flood
Sharples
Barrit
Tuilagi
Ashton
Foden

and just see what they can do.

Forwards I would go

Corbisiero
Hartley (though I am still not convinced about his scrummaging)
Cole
Parling
Lawes
Croft
Wood
Easter (for now)

Unfortunately I live in France so I havent been able to see much of the young 7's people are going on about like Seymour or Wallace.

People say Croft is a luxury, for me he is an outstanding talent (as shown on the Lions tour) who is being asked to play a completely different style of game to which he plays for Leicester. If you look at the game we won down in Australia when we played at a high tempo he was outstanding but if we are going to play the drivel we played in the World Cup he isn't the right man. I have put him in the team because this is the team I would pick to play the expansive game we played that day which is what I want to see.

by englandglory4ever Thu 3 Nov - 17:53

Simpson
Farrell
Armitage/Monye
Banahan
Tuilagi
Ashton - although concerned about his weak tackling ability when up against the best
Foden

and just see what they can do.

Forwards I would go

Corbisiero
Thompson (was probably the best England forward in the RWC)
Cole
Parling
Deacon
Robshaw
Wood
Easter (for now but must find someone better, Crane is even slower than Easter)

This group has got pace, power, experience and talent.

by maestegmafia Thu 3 Nov - 18:42

I see a lot of people still considering Easter to be the best option at number 8...? I thought he would have been on the lists of the discarded? A younger option might be preferable.

by Poorfour Thu 3 Nov - 19:44

maestegmafia wrote:I see a lot of people still considering Easter to be the best option at number 8...? I thought he would have been on the lists of the discarded? A younger option might be preferable.

I've been a fan of Easter at club and international level for a long time, but he looked tired in NZ and I can't see him making 2015 as first choice. However, most of the contenders for his shirt are injured or out of form, and given the number of changes likely in the 6N squad his ability to control a game will be important. Also bear in mind that he was injured for most of RWC, so he may well look better once he's played himself back to match fitness.

Long term, there isn't an obvious challenger, but we'll have to see who puts their hand up.

by Geordie Thu 3 Nov - 20:18

"He couldn't get past someone half his size in a 1vs1!"

Now to contradict what i said earlier.....he did also knock the considerably larger Scotland No.8 in to next year.....

"I see a lot of people still considering Easter to be the best option at number 8...? I thought he would have been on the lists of the discarded? A younger option might be preferable."

Maesteg, most England fan would agree with you...however until there is a viable option to take his place...we must utlise his power, and hard yard style game.....

Should Fearns or Guest or anyone else step up and earn the shirt then all the better....

by Geordie Thu 3 Nov - 20:25

PS....

Has anyone else noticed that any thread involving England always ends up talking about the back row......

If its that glaring to us fans that this is a huge area of concern....why isnt the very well paid coaches seeing it......

by DaveM Fri 4 Nov - 0:00

Banahan has only played a handful of games at IC, but he looks highly promising. From what I've seen he's a better passer of the ball than Barritt, and he's certainly quicker. If he plays well at Bath for the next 3 months then I'd give him a run at IC (subject to the form of other contenders). He won't be the finished article defensively, but I'd be prepared to have a young 12 learn on the job, even if it costs England a game or two over the next year. Bath's defence against LI looked pretty good to me.

As for the backrow, England won't consistently challenge the best until it is sorted. We really do need to look to the future here, rather thn going back to Easter and 6's playing at 7. Again, if their form holds, let's go straight to Wallace and Fearns.

by DaveM Fri 4 Nov - 0:13

formerly known as Sam wrote:He's just frustrated with the lack of motivation to bring through England internationals. 6 graduates from the Tigers academy (Cole, Deacon, Croft, Moody, Youngs and Manu) took part in the quarter final for England. Tigers contributed 7 players of the 33 involved and yet were rewarded with a threadbare team and £30k per player (of which one is still injured). It'll be similar during the 6N, it's less of an issue at Tigers but what will happen if a large chunk get called from Quins or LI? Will they follow the Falcons route and release the inefficient internationals? That's not good for English rugby.

Post 2007 there were basically a handful of promising players, now there are dozens. The 2007 Saxons looked like this:

England Saxons: Cipriani; Sackey, Sorrell, Mordt, Voyce; Barkley, Wigglesworth; Hatley (capt), Paice, Brooks, Blaze, Evans, Haskell, Skinner, Dowson.
Replacements: Thompson, Forster, Mercey, Croft, Crane, Dickson, Erinle.

formerly known as Sam wrote:And there were plenty of caps for that team; Cipriani, Sackey, Voyce, Barkley, Wigglesworth, Haskell, Thompson, Croft, Crane and Erinle all got caps. Blaze would have surely got caps had it not been for injury and Dickson is equally unlucky to have been injured during Englands scrum half crisis this summer. A good chunk of those players were considered very promising at the time but some fell away for various reasons and that just happens when you talk about potential.

Threadbare? Apart from TH Leicester still had a team that, on paper, should have been able to give anyone a game. Tiger's players didn't perform - the failure to defend properly has nothing to do with the missing players.

And come on, that is a pretty depressing Saxons side. Yes a few went on to get caps, but that just shows how threadbare English rugby was at the time. Cipriani, Haskell, Blaze and Croft. 5 out of 22 worth getting excited about.

by Poorfour Fri 4 Nov - 0:17

Banahan is a big unit and can pass, but he's only just started playing at 12. If you're not going to go for a Southern Hemisphere style second five eighths, why not pick someone who knows what he's doing?

Jordan Turner-Hall isn't as big as Banahan, but he gives as much go-forward, is better defensively, has a better pass than most scrum halves, has been playing at IC at senior level for 5 years, is still only 23 and is in form.

Personally, I don't think he is the answer if Tuilagi is the nailed-on 13 - but it seems odd to experiment with Banahan learning the IC role at international level when there are players available who can do the job already.

by Rory_Gallagher Fri 4 Nov - 0:56

JTH paired with Tuilangi.. now that would be a partnership I would not wish to play against. But would also be very interested in seeing how they would play together.

by maestegmafia Fri 4 Nov - 1:25

I'm sorry but Banahan is not a good player, he might be a big bloke but he can't play rugby

by radelven Fri 4 Nov - 4:30

Barritt is by a stretch the best IC at the moment and has been consistently good for a couple of seasons. He runs the best defensive line in the league, he's great on the crash ball, always makes ground & breaks tackles, and he's a very good distributor (he pops up at first receiver surprisingly often for Saracens considering his midfield partners, resulting in a couple of tries from the games I've watched).

He doesn't have full international experience, but he's played numerous times to great effect for the Saxons, he went with the senior side to Australasia last year (playing against the Maoris), and he was called up into the EPS for the last AIs, so he's no stranger to the national set up.

by beshocked Fri 4 Nov - 8:40

GeordieFalcon wrote:"He couldn't get past someone half his size in a 1vs1!"

Now to contradict what i said earlier.....he did also knock the considerably larger Scotland No.8 in to next year.....

"I see a lot of people still considering Easter to be the best option at number 8...? I thought he would have been on the lists of the discarded? A younger option might be preferable."

Maesteg, most England fan would agree with you...however until there is a viable option to take his place...we must utlise his power, and hard yard style game.....

Should Fearns or Guest or anyone else step up and earn the shirt then all the better....

Geordiefalcon clap

Banahan should be commended for knocking out a player. Banahan is such a tough player isn't he?

Picking Easter would be just stepping backwards. In my opinion his time is over.

Brad Barritt is the best option at inside centre.

Banahan is still learning his trade at inside centre. Does he really have the skillset of an proper inside centre? Certainly not yet in my opinion.

I think people love Banahan because he is big and fast. That doesn't mean he is necessary skillful though.

by Geordie Fri 4 Nov - 9:05

At what point did i applaud that someone was knocked out???

I was argueing the fact (even contradicting myself) that Banahan doesnt use his size....and pointed out that in fact he is well capable of using his size.....just needs to learn to be more consistant.
Theres no way Shane Williams should have been able to stop him.

The way i see it we have 4 12's to be working on. Barrit, Turner-Hall, Allen and Banahan. All at different stages and offer differing skills and abilities...We need to identify how we are going to play the game and use the one who will most suit that...and play him.

As for Easter....who has put in performances that says "hey this England 8 shirt is mine" ?

Guest - Injured, Crane - Injured, Dowson - Good player but is he the right age to be brining in..., Fearns (my favorite for the role)- has not been playing 8.., York(Quins) - Will he play with Easter and Guest around...

I agree that Easter is now past it....however....

WHO do you suggest?

by beshocked Fri 4 Nov - 9:14

You imply that knocking out a player is good by showing that Banahan can use his size.

Consistent at what exactly? Using his size?

I really don't think Banahan is the answer at inside centre. He hasn't got the right skill set. His strengths are being big and fast. If he can't actually outmuscle someone half his size what chance has he got?

He got shown up against Ireland.

Allen is injured.Barritt is the in form centre.JTH needs to show more IMO.

Banahan should stick to being a winger.

Fearns as there is no one else.

by killer938 Fri 4 Nov - 9:22

GeordieFalcon

What do you mean by working on? If you mean develop then I would argue that certainly Barrit and Allen are past that stage and one of them (at the moment Barrit) should be given a go. Also, if you mean it like this then I would add 12trees to that list. In terms of someone to develop he would be at the top of my list. I know he is inconsistent but but thats why he needs the developing, but he has all the tools to be amazing. His boot his huge by anyone's standards, he has the size to be physical, he has the step and speed and his distribution is better than anyone's in that list. The problem is he has absolutely no consistency at all. To be fair to him, he needs a run of games to be able to improve that and of course as soon as Allen is out for 3 months, he is out as well. I know Allen has been great for us but I would love to see a backline of Youngs, Flood, 12trees and Manu given a go for a run of games for Tigers. If that got going then we could have some serious fun watching Leicester play.

Of the other two you mentioned, Turner Hall I really haven't seen for a while so I don't know how he is playing and I have already stated my opinion on Banahan but I just don't see it.

by Geordie Fri 4 Nov - 9:27

"You imply that knocking out a player is good by showing that Banahan can use his size."

I was using it as an example of where he has used his size ...not applauding it.

"Consistent at what exactly? Using his size?"

Yes, there have been numerous times where i have seen him carry three players back with ease and offload...then others where he looks weak and incapable of making any yards at all. He needs to correct this part of his game.

"I really don't think Banahan is the answer at inside centre. He hasn't got the right skill set. His strengths are being big and fast. "

Whats the skills set for a 12....crash ball power, big tackler and quick hands..., which Banahan does have. What he lacks is experience of playing that position...but he is there now for Bath...so will improve quickly. However, like you say Barritt is an experience 12, as is Turner Hall, as is Allen, so we need to get the right player in. At least we now have options....rather than Tindall at 12.

by formerly known as Sam Fri 4 Nov - 9:48

Threadbare? Apart from TH Leicester still had a team that, on paper, should have been able to give anyone a game.

What no tight head, no number 8, captain/vice captain/pack leader/back up vice captain all at RWC or injured and 2nd choice squad players/academy players including an 18 year old fly half is the basis of every successful team in the AP?

Banahan has only played a handful of games at IC, but he looks highly promising. From what I've seen he's a better passer of the ball than Barritt, and he's certainly quicker

The problem is Banahan has always looked good in the AP but fails to translate that form to the international level. His passing has always been non-existent in an England shirt, he has no kicking abilities and where as for Bath he cuts neat lines with power and pace for England he runs the same lines straight into contact where he gets hammered. He is incredibley frustrating and should be dropped to concentrate on his Bath form with a recall for the summer internationals if he continues to show promise. Barritt is by far and away the best IC in the AP at the moment.

by Geordie Fri 4 Nov - 10:01

"Barritt is by far and away the best IC in the AP at the moment.."

I wouldnt disagree with that....which raises the question....why has he been continuously overlooked by the Management...

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