Who has the best under 25 team?

First topic message reminder :

I think this will have some bearing on form over the next 5 years or so. I think what Gatland has done with Wales is exceptional. He has amassed a very competitive team mainly built of very young players. What better way to develop a squad than to keep the same group of players for as long as possible. I think Wales have just been very lucky that some of the "extremely" young players have been outstanding. Never again will I want to see experience over age. Priestland put Jones and Hook to shame. Faletau put Ryan Jones to shame. Warburton put Martyn Williams to shame etc etc...

Pick a starting XV of players from your country currently aged 25 or younger and let's debate which one is the best or going to develop into the best.

WALES XV

15. Leigh Halfpenny
14. George North
13. Jon Davies
12. Jamie Roberts
11. Aled Brew
10. Rhys Priestland
9. Lloyd Williams
8. Toby Faletau
7. Sam Warburton
6. Dan Lydiate
5. Aaron Shingler or equivalent
4. Bradley Davies
3. Craig Mitchell
2. Ken Owens
1. Ryan Bevington

PLAYERS AGED 25-30 who have a few years left

James Hook
Alun-Wyn Jones
Huw Bennett
Richard Hibbard
Gavin Henson
Mike Phillips
Gethin Jenkins
Andy Powell
Ryan Jones
Luke Charteris

So Wales almost have a first choice XV from players aged 25 or younger. This combined with some of the awesome older talent that still has a few years left plus the youth coming through says to me that this will be a very competitive gelled unit for years to come.

Wales do not have the problem of the majority of their best players past 30 or close to retirement. England winning the world cup was obviously an amazing achievement for them, but there was clearly no squad rotation or enough quality younger players coming through to cover retirements and they paid for it big time. Other than reaching the 2007 final, England didn't win a competition for 8 years after winning a world cup.

Something is clearly wrong when you win the greatest rugby competition on earth, but then nothing for 8 years. I can't imaging New Zealand not winning a tri nations or UK grandslam for another 8 years.

tomathy wrote:I'd have no problem at all with Morgan choosing to play for Wales if he wants to, but I hope that it puts an end to a lot of the criticism of England picking guys through residency.

What attracts more criticism towards England is the huge number of English players that are available.If your selectors have to go for Tongan/Samoan players who have been capped at RL for NZ it is just sad.
Under Graham Henry we had a shameful period of this nonsense.To see brothers turning out for different countries is just plain wrong.Imagine the pride in having 22 indigionous players turning out to represent you.That would be better,surely?

Taffineastbourne wrote:

tomathy wrote:I'd have no problem at all with Morgan choosing to play for Wales if he wants to, but I hope that it puts an end to a lot of the criticism of England picking guys through residency.

What attracts more criticism towards England is the huge number of English players that are available.If your selectors have to go for Tongan/Samoan players who have been capped at RL for NZ it is just sad.
Under Graham Henry we had a shameful period of this nonsense.To see brothers turning out for different countries is just plain wrong.Imagine the pride in having 22 indigionous players turning out to represent you.That would be better,surely?

Presumably, if you are sticking to your principle ,you would disown the Tongan born Faletau?

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:

tomathy wrote:I'd have no problem at all with Morgan choosing to play for Wales if he wants to, but I hope that it puts an end to a lot of the criticism of England picking guys through residency.

What attracts more criticism towards England is the huge number of English players that are available.If your selectors have to go for Tongan/Samoan players who have been capped at RL for NZ it is just sad.
Under Graham Henry we had a shameful period of this nonsense.To see brothers turning out for different countries is just plain wrong.Imagine the pride in having 22 indigionous players turning out to represent you.That would be better,surely?

Presumably, if you are sticking to your principle ,you would disown the Tongan born Faletau?

A Welsh mother must make a difference,surely?Growing up in a country must make a difference,surely?If you cannot differentiate then I despair.

Taffineastbourne wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:

tomathy wrote:I'd have no problem at all with Morgan choosing to play for Wales if he wants to, but I hope that it puts an end to a lot of the criticism of England picking guys through residency.

What attracts more criticism towards England is the huge number of English players that are available.If your selectors have to go for Tongan/Samoan players who have been capped at RL for NZ it is just sad.
Under Graham Henry we had a shameful period of this nonsense.To see brothers turning out for different countries is just plain wrong.Imagine the pride in having 22 indigionous players turning out to represent you.That would be better,surely?

Presumably, if you are sticking to your principle ,you would disown the Tongan born Faletau?

A Welsh mother must make a difference,surely?Growing up in a country must make a difference,surely?If you cannot differentiate then I despair.

Faletau doesn't have a Welsh mother

What about Ben Morgan then? (who hasn't even qualified for Wales yet)

The point is that if you accept Faletau you have to allow Tuilagi as well, given that their situation is essentially the same.

If you want to allow Faletau and Morgan (which I agree you should) then don't use the word "indigenous", because neither of them are.

tomathy wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:

tomathy wrote:I'd have no problem at all with Morgan choosing to play for Wales if he wants to, but I hope that it puts an end to a lot of the criticism of England picking guys through residency.

What attracts more criticism towards England is the huge number of English players that are available.If your selectors have to go for Tongan/Samoan players who have been capped at RL for NZ it is just sad.
Under Graham Henry we had a shameful period of this nonsense.To see brothers turning out for different countries is just plain wrong.Imagine the pride in having 22 indigionous players turning out to represent you.That would be better,surely?

Presumably, if you are sticking to your principle ,you would disown the Tongan born Faletau?

A Welsh mother must make a difference,surely?Growing up in a country must make a difference,surely?If you cannot differentiate then I despair.

Faletau doesn't have a Welsh mother

What about Ben Morgan then? (who hasn't even qualified for Wales yet)

The point is that if you accept Faletau you have to allow Tuilagi as well, given that their situation is essentially the same.

If you want to allow Faletau and Morgan (which I agree you should) then don't use the word "indigenous", because neither of them are.

Hartley?Vainikolo?Flutey?Hape?Stevens?Fourie?Robinson(?Leicester no8)?

Taffineastbourne wrote:Hartley?Vainikolo?Flutey?Hape?Stevens?

Hartley has an English mother
Stevens has English parents
Faletau has no Welsh ancestry

I happen to think that it is fine for people to qualify on residency. I'm just making the point that criticising England specifically for it is ludicrous. Wales have done it plenty over the years, as bedfordwelsh pointed out, and since Gatland has openly said they want Ben Morgan to play for them, you have to assume that if there were more uncapped foreigners playing for the Welsh regions then they'd still be doing it now.

EDIT: Waldrom hasn't actually played for England yet, so hold off on that one. Which Robinson are you talking about? Jason Robinson was born in England and played League and Union for England.

tomathy wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:Hartley?Vainikolo?Flutey?Hape?Stevens?

Hartley has an English mother
Stevens has English parents
Faletau has no Welsh ancestry

I happen to think that it is fine for people to qualify on residency. I'm just making the point that criticising England specifically for it is ludicrous. Wales have done it plenty over the years, as bedfordwelsh pointed out, and since Gatland has openly said they want Ben Morgan to play for them, you have to assume that if there were more uncapped foreigners playing for the Welsh regions then they'd still be doing it now.

EDIT: Waldrom hasn't actually played for England yet, so hold off on that one. Which Robinson are you talking about? Jason Robinson was born in England and played League and Union for England.

Sorry meant Waldron-didnt he get called up to the WC squad in NZ?Thought Toby lived in Wales since he was 7 years old.If you read my post you would see clearer.The number of English players available to select from must give cause for concern that England have to resort to drafting in foreigners to apparently poor results anyway.Why not pick English youngsters instead?

Give it a rest guys, this subject matter has been done to death, and noone ever agrees.

If players want to play for another country it is inevitable it will happen. does it matter that one country has more foreign born players than another?

Taffineastbourne wrote:Sorry meant Waldron-didnt he get called up to the WC squad in NZ?Thought Toby lived in Wales since he was 7 years old.If you read my post you would see clearer.

Your post clearly said that Faletau has a Welsh mother, which isn't true. Tuilagi and Faletau are in the same boat in that they came. I'm fine with him playing for Wales. My point is that if you allow him then you have to allow Tuilagi who also came to England as a child, and has been brought through the age-grade system.

Taffineastbourne wrote:The number of English players available to select from must give cause for concern that England have to resort to drafting in foreigners to apparently poor results anyway.

This doesn't really make sense, but I think you're saying that it's sad that we draft in so many foreigners and still get bad results. Well, England may have lost a game at the world cup, but all in all we've had a pretty good 18 months. Beat Australia home and away, won the six nations, beat Wales and Ireland away. The 6 nations loss to Ireland and the WC loss to France have taken the gloss off what has otherwise been a very good period, results-wise.

Taffineastbourne wrote:Why not pick English youngsters instead?

The "foreign" players that get picked have come to England to play for a club, and eventually qualify through residency. Once that has happened, Johnson quite rightly considers them alongside all other available players. It's not his job to take a nationalistic stand about qualification. It's his job to pick the best available players and get them to win.

biltongbek wrote:If players want to play for another country it is inevitable it will happen. does it matter that one country has more foreign born players than another?

No. That's my point. Anyway, agree it's been done to death and wont post more about it.

tomathy wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:Sorry meant Waldron-didnt he get called up to the WC squad in NZ?Thought Toby lived in Wales since he was 7 years old.If you read my post you would see clearer.

Your post clearly said that Faletau has a Welsh mother, which isn't true. Tuilagi and Faletau are in the same boat in that they came. I'm fine with him playing for Wales. My point is that if you allow him then you have to allow Tuilagi who also came to England as a child, and has been brought through the age-grade system.

Taffineastbourne wrote:The number of English players available to select from must give cause for concern that England have to resort to drafting in foreigners to apparently poor results anyway.

This doesn't really make sense, but I think you're saying that it's sad that we draft in so many foreigners and still get bad results. Well, England may have lost a game at the world cup, but all in all we've had a pretty good 18 months. Beat Australia home and away, won the six nations, beat Wales and Ireland away. The 6 nations loss to Ireland and the WC loss to France have taken the gloss off what has otherwise been a very good period, results-wise.

Taffineastbourne wrote:Why not pick English youngsters instead?

The "foreign" players that get picked have come to England to play for a club, and eventually qualify through residency. Once that has happened, Johnson quite rightly considers them alongside all other available players. It's not his job to take a nationalistic stand about qualification. It's his job to pick the best available players and get them to win.

If you are happy as an England fan,good luck to you.As a Welsh fan our dark days are behind us,I hope and I now have a team of players that truly represent my country.I never liked having Saffers,Kiwis,English or Ozzies turning out in the red jersey.

Taffineastbourne, I am sure if we have a choice we would all want our teams to represent our country as a whole.

The reality is unfortunately not that.

Biltong,I am a romantic by nature and love Rugby dearly.I can dream whilst recognising that we are where we are.

Taffineastbourne wrote:Biltong,I am a romantic by nature and love Rugby dearly.I can dream whilst recognising that we are where we are.

"Other than reaching the 2007 final, England didn't win a competition for 8 years after winning a world cup.
Something is clearly wrong when you win the greatest rugby competition on earth, but then nothing for 8 years"

BUt here lies the problem with Woodward.....

He built a team, and played it relentlessly...creating consistency, familiarity, and massive experience.

But whilst doing this he sacrificed any continuation POST world cup....by not giving other youngsters much gametime at all.

So...World Cup Win - Fab...but years in the doldrums a result.....

Woodward did bring on players and build but not to the extent he needed too and a good deal of that was wasted when Robinson took over as he really had little or no clue how to build a team. Woodward was grooming the likes of Ollie Smith and Stuart Abbott as post RWC stars but the amount of action they saw (Abbott's injury issues were of course a blow) were not representative of their ability.

It's often the case that teams have a life span and that when that life span comes it takes some time to regenerate and create the next team. Several bungled efforts by England management set ups have elongated the process. Note that England aren't the only ones the Boks are struggling post 2009 to reach the heights of the RWC and Lions winning team and Ireland's golden generation are looking like they are starting to fade.

Taffineastbourne wrote:If you are happy as an England fan,good luck to you.As a Welsh fan our dark days are behind us,I hope and I now have a team of players that truly represent my country.I never liked having Saffers,Kiwis,English or Ozzies turning out in the red jersey.

You didn't actually answer any of my points or acknowledge the factual errors I had pointed out, but good luck to you too *pats on head*

tomathy wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:If you are happy as an England fan,good luck to you.As a Welsh fan our dark days are behind us,I hope and I now have a team of players that truly represent my country.I never liked having Saffers,Kiwis,English or Ozzies turning out in the red jersey.

You didn't actually answer any of my points or acknowledge the factual errors I had pointed out, but good luck to you too *pats on head*

Sorry,I misunderstood-thought there was some sort of debate.Point scoring always seems so childish,doesnt it?.I thought Toby had a Welsh mam-my bad!Never mentioned Tuilagi.There .Do you feel better?Why not ponder whether you would prefer English fellas to fill your side or are you happy with plastic English?Just a thought.