Who has produced the most greats by category?

by Hoggy_Bear Mon 31 Oct 2011, 10:36 pm

Openers:
England

Middle-order batsmen:
Australia or India

All-rounders:
South Africa

'keepers:
England

Pace bowlers:
Oz or WIndies

Spinners:
Oz, India, England

Agree or not?
Discuss

by guildfordbat Mon 31 Oct 2011, 11:12 pm

Hoggy - a good and interesting article.

I assume that you are trying to cover all places in a team. On that basis, the middle-order batsmen will start at number 3. Particularly with that being the case, I believe the WIndies should be in the mix for this category.

Immediate thoughts turn to the 'Three Ws', Kanhai, Lloyd, Kallicharran, Richards, Gomes (the under rated straightman to the entertainers) and Lara.

Your other categories seem sound and understandable.

by GG Mon 31 Oct 2011, 11:13 pm

I think Windies are some way ahead of Aus in terms of fast bowlers.

by Hoggy_Bear Mon 31 Oct 2011, 11:21 pm

Guildford
Yeah I was thinking 3-6 as 'middle-order' and I agree that on that basis the WIndies are in with a shout. But who is the ultimate producer of great middle order batsmen. I don't think it can be argued that England have produced more great openers or 'keepers than anyone else (in my view anyway), or that the Saffers have produced more great all-rounders. But who have produced the most great middle-order batsmen, pace bowlers and spinners?

by Hoggy_Bear Mon 31 Oct 2011, 11:24 pm

GG wrote:I think Windies are some way ahead of Aus in terms of fast bowlers.

I don't know.

Spofforth
Lindwall
Miller
Davidson
Lillee
McGrath

who else?

by hodge Mon 31 Oct 2011, 11:32 pm

Lee?

Jason Gillespe laughing

i remember the ashes in 05, 2 hours of chanting 'bring on Gillespe' until the point he does, and gets smacked round the ground each boundary to a big cheer

by Mad for Chelsea Mon 31 Oct 2011, 11:50 pm

Hmmm I think Australia aren't far behind England in the wicket-keeping stakes: Tallon, Oldfield, Healy, all great keepers.

by Stella Tue 01 Nov 2011, 5:03 am

The West Indies for fast bowlers:

Hall
Griffith
Roberts
Holding
Croft
Marshall
Garner
Ambrose
Walsh
Bishop

by **Biltong** Tue 01 Nov 2011, 7:17 am

Well to be totally honest South Africa is at a little disadvantage here because of the 22 years they didn't play international cricket.

So in my lifetime it is really only the modern era that is fresh in my memory, but even then we have contributed some good players in the fileding, bolwing and all rounder department.

Fielding
Jonty Rhodes
AB de Villiers
Herschelle Gibbs
JP Duminy
Ashwel Prince

Fast bowling
Alan Donald
Shaun Pollock
Fanie de Villiers
Dale Steyn
Morne Morkel
Mkhaya Ntini

All rounders

Jaque Kallis
Brian Mcmillan
Adrian Kuiper
Shaun pollock
Lance Klusener
JP Duminy

by **Galted** Tue 01 Nov 2011, 8:10 am

Would add Clive Rice to the recent all rounder list.

by Stella Tue 01 Nov 2011, 8:18 am

Galted wrote:Would add Clive Rice to the recent all rounder list.

You could then add Procter.

by ShankyCricket Tue 01 Nov 2011, 9:54 am

Brett Schultz

by ShankyCricket Tue 01 Nov 2011, 9:54 am

Brett Schultz to the fast bowlers list

by **Biltong** Tue 01 Nov 2011, 10:45 am

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:Brett Schultz

Yeah if it wasn't that injury curtailed his career, he would have had one hell of a test record

by Stella Tue 01 Nov 2011, 10:48 am

Aussies must surely beat the Indians when it comes to middle order batsmen.

by Hoggy_Bear Tue 01 Nov 2011, 11:04 am

Stella wrote:Aussies must surely beat the Indians when it comes to middle order batsmen.

Yeah you're probably right and, as guildford pointed out, the WIndies probably do as well. But what about Oz vs. the WIndies in this category?

Bradman
Harvey
Chappell G.
Border
Waugh
Ponting
Hussey

vs.

Headley
Weekes
Worrell
Walcott
Kanhai
Richards
Lara

by ShankyCricket Tue 01 Nov 2011, 11:32 am

Hoggy_Bear wrote:
Stella wrote:Aussies must surely beat the Indians when it comes to middle order batsmen.

Yeah you're probably right and, as guildford pointed out, the WIndies probably do as well. But what about Oz vs. the WIndies in this category?

Bradman
Harvey
Chappell G.
Border
Waugh
Ponting
Hussey

vs.

Headley
Weekes
Worrell
Walcott
Kanhai
Richards
Lara

Aussies look stronger thanks to The Don.

by Stella Tue 01 Nov 2011, 11:37 am

Mr Lara is better than the Don

Whistle

by ShankyCricket Tue 01 Nov 2011, 11:40 am

Stella wrote:Mr Lara is better than the Don

Mr.Sachin is better than Lara.

by Stella Tue 01 Nov 2011, 11:43 am

Australia and the West Indies are pretty equal although I will say that Australia have probably produced more very good middle order players.

by GG Tue 01 Nov 2011, 12:33 pm

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:
Stella wrote:Mr Lara is better than the Don

Mr.Sachin is better than Lara.

Mr Kallis is better than Sachin

by ShankyCricket Tue 01 Nov 2011, 12:45 pm

GG wrote:
shankythebiggestengfan wrote:
Stella wrote:Mr Lara is better than the Don

Mr.Sachin is better than Lara.

Mr Kallis is better than Sachin

Mr.Pietersen is better than all of them. Whistle

by Stella Tue 01 Nov 2011, 1:00 pm

Alviro??????????

by ShankyCricket Tue 01 Nov 2011, 1:13 pm

Stella wrote:Alviro??????????

Yes

by Stella Tue 01 Nov 2011, 1:14 pm

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:
Stella wrote:Alviro??????????
Yes

by Mike Selig Tue 01 Nov 2011, 2:54 pm

Going back on topic:

England for openers I wouldn't argue against, but again Aus must be in for a shout.

England have Hobbs, Sutfliffe, Hutton, Boycott, Gooch, etc.

Aus have Barnes, Morris, Ponsford, Trumper, Hayden, etc.

Middle-order:
Aus, WI than Ind in that order.

Aus have had Bradman, McCabe, Harvey, G. Chappell, Border, S. Waugh, Ponting, Hussey, arguably guys like Martyn, M. Waugh. Bradman gives them an extra dimension, but even were he on a par with say Headley I still think Aus would have this one.

Is wicketkeeping done purely on keeping skills? Aus again surely have a shout with Talon, Oldield, Marsh and Healy all excellent keepers, and of course Gillchrist if we factor in batting. Eng have Knott, Taylor, Russell, Evans, probably others I've missed out. For me, Knott was so brilliant he edges it for England, but if we include batting Gillchrist wins it for Aus.

All-rounders: SA seem to have produced a constant stream: Kallis, Pollock, Klusener, Proctor, etc, etc. Has any other side produced more than one?

Pace bowlers: Aus have a good record but WI win this one comfortably. SA wouldn't be too far off had they not had all those years out. Pakistan have a few greats, but not as many. England arguably have only 1 (Truemann, although Willis not far off).

Spinners: I think Aus shade it: Grimmett, O'Reilly, Benaud, Warne is a fantastic tradition of leg-spinners. England perhaps surprisingly could stake a claim with Verity, Laker, Lock, Underwood and in time perhaps Swann. India: Bedi, Chandraskar (sp?), Kumble but I'd argue none of them match favourably with their Aus counterparts.

Verdict:

Openers: 1-Eng, 2-Aus
Middle-order: 1-Aus, 2-WI, 3-Ind
All-rounders: 1-SA, 2-Daylight.
Wicket-keepers (ignoring batting): 1-Eng, 2-Aus
Fast bowlers: 1-WI, 2-Aus, 3-SA
Spinners: 1-Aus, 2-Eng, 3-Ind

by Hoggy_Bear Tue 01 Nov 2011, 2:58 pm

Pretty good assesment Mike.
Agree with most of your conclusions.
Just on the wicketkeeping point, yes Gilchrist adds to the batting ability of Ozzie 'keepers, but the inclusion of Ames and, arguably, Prior for England, would go a long to counteract that IMHO.

by Hoggy_Bear Tue 01 Nov 2011, 3:00 pm

Just thinking that maybe I should have included a 'medium-pace' category, or changed the fast bowler category to a more inclusive 'seamer' category

by Stella Tue 01 Nov 2011, 3:26 pm

Hoggy_Bear

What about a captain's category?

by Hoggy_Bear Tue 01 Nov 2011, 3:40 pm

Yep, that's another good one Stella.
Oz and England would be ahead in that IMO.

by Stella Tue 01 Nov 2011, 3:42 pm

A lot of that would be down to having more history I guess.

by Stella Tue 01 Nov 2011, 3:53 pm

Stella wrote:A lot of that would be down to having more history I guess.

The same goes for all the categories Rolling Eyes

by GG Tue 01 Nov 2011, 4:47 pm

Pakistan up there for fast bowlers?

by ShankyCricket Tue 01 Nov 2011, 5:26 pm

Mike
I would say that England and Pakistan are ahead of SA when it comes to seamers.

by Mike Selig Tue 01 Nov 2011, 6:38 pm

Pakistan are there or thereabouts, but how do Wasim, Waqar and Imran Khan compare to Donald, Pollock, Tayfield, Proctor, Steyn?

I think SA shades it. I'm not sure England are that close (although with Botham, Bedser and Barnes they would be thereabouts for medium-pacers).

by GG Tue 01 Nov 2011, 6:53 pm

Mike Selig wrote:Pakistan are there or thereabouts, but how do Wasim, Waqar and Imran Khan compare to Donald, Pollock, Tayfield, Proctor, Steyn?

Don't forget Asif and Akhtar as well

by Hoggy_Bear Tue 01 Nov 2011, 7:40 pm

Mike Selig wrote:Pakistan are there or thereabouts, but how do Wasim, Waqar and Imran Khan compare to Donald, Pollock, Tayfield, Proctor, Steyn?

I think SA shades it. I'm not sure England are that close (although with Botham, Bedser and Barnes they would be thereabouts for medium-pacers).

That's why I wonered about adding a 'medium-pace' category.

Barnes (although he could count as a spinner), Tate, Bowes, Bedser, Appleyard, Higgs, Hendrick, Botham, Fraser would make England strong contenders.

by Mike Selig Tue 01 Nov 2011, 8:01 pm

GG wrote:
Mike Selig wrote:Pakistan are there or thereabouts, but how do Wasim, Waqar and Imran Khan compare to Donald, Pollock, Tayfield, Proctor, Steyn?

Don't forget Asif and Akhtar as well

Neither would make it onto a "greats" list IMO.

by Mike Selig Tue 01 Nov 2011, 8:03 pm

Hoggy_Bear wrote:That's why I wonered about adding a 'medium-pace' category.

Barnes (although he could count as a spinner), Tate, Bowes, Bedser, Appleyard, Higgs, Hendrick, Botham, Fraser would make England strong contenders.

Of course there is a reasonable argument that this would be unfair, as England (and New-Zealand) are the only places which require/aid the production of medium-pacers. But then of course this argument holds for all the categories more or less.

by anu_d Tue 01 Nov 2011, 8:49 pm

Hoggy_Bear wrote:Openers:
Aus

Middle-order batsmen:
aus

All-rounders:
South Africa

'keepers:
England

Pace bowlers:
WI and Pak

Spinners:
India
Agree or not?
Discuss

by Gregers Tue 01 Nov 2011, 8:54 pm

For me:

Openers:
Not too sure on this one, maybe Australia? If I'm allowed to include Gilly. Mind you if ODIs are taken into account then India by default of having Sachin open.

Middle-order batsmen:
Cannot look past India for this. Dravid, Sachin, Ganguly, Laxman et al.

All-rounders:
South Africa, as people have already mentioned. Kallis, Klusener, Pollock, Morkel, Prince...

'keepers:
Australia. Gilly is in my mind the best of all time so he swings it just away from England

Fast bowlers:
WIndies - For Walsh and Ambrose

'Medium' Pacers:

Pakistan - For Wasim and Waqar

Spinners:
This one is incredibly tight. Australia for me just.

Captains:
Australia - Ponting, Waugh, etc

Fielding:

South Africa by a country mile. Rhodes, de Villiers, Gibbs, Duminy, Du Plessis, VDM

by Hoggy_Bear Tue 01 Nov 2011, 9:36 pm

Personally reckon England take the Openers, Wicketkeepers and Medium-pacers categories.

Australia take the middle-order, spinners and captains categories

South Africa win the all-rounder category

West Indies the pace bowlers

by wow Wed 02 Nov 2011, 12:03 am

Hoggy_Bear wrote:Openers:
England
India- Sehwag/ Gavaskar. Windies will come second
Middle-order batsmen:
Australia or India

All-rounders:
South Africa/Pakistan

'keepers:
/ Aus/ SOuth Africa- Gilly/Boucher/Healy

Pace bowlers:
Oz or WIndies/England- Larwood, Harmison

Spinners:
Oz, India, - definitely not England and you are forgetting Murlitharan, Mendis

Agree or not?
Discuss

by wow Wed 02 Nov 2011, 12:04 am

Gregers, Waqar as a fast bowler probably faster than both Walsh and Ambrose. Tait/lee/ akhtar have been the fastest so majority goes to OZ anyways.

by wow Wed 02 Nov 2011, 12:05 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waqar_Younis
a fast bowler. His fastest delivery in cricket was 153 km/h or 95.1 mph, a delivery he bowled against South Africa in 1993. He was also effective in the use of bouncers or short pitch deliveries; Younis' bowling against South Africa in Sheikhupura in Pakistan

by Hoggy_Bear Wed 02 Nov 2011, 12:12 am

wow wrote:
Hoggy_Bear wrote:Openers:
England
India- Sehwag/ Gavaskar. Windies will come second

England-Grace, Hobbs, Sutcliffe, Hutton, Boycott, Gooch
Middle-order batsmen:
Australia or India

WIndies ahead of India IMO

All-rounders:
South Africa/Pakistan

South Africa miles ahead of everyone else IMHO

'keepers:
/ Aus/ SOuth Africa- Gilly/Boucher/Healy

Ames, Evans, Knott, Taylor, French, Prior

Pace bowlers:
Oz or WIndies/England- Larwood, Harmison

Don't think England are the best but they've had far more and better pace bowlers than just those two
Spinners:
Oz, India, - definitely not England and you are forgetting Murlitharan, Mendis

England-Barnes (arguably),Blythe,Verity, Laker, Lock,Underwood

Agree or not?
Discuss

by wow Wed 02 Nov 2011, 12:18 am

Keppers no way, they are far behind in terms of success as compared to Boucher, Healy and Gilly. even our Dhoni is not doing bad in terms of WK. Prior has along way to go and he lost his ODI place as well so definitley a no. Knott better but he does not rank amongst best.

Spinners- underwood, maybe but he is far behind if success or scalps are the criteria. Kumble, Warne, Murli has taken far many wickets or 10 wickets in innings as compared to any English spinners.

by wow Wed 02 Nov 2011, 12:20 am

Openers: Gavaskar had max centuries, Sehwag is the amogst elite who have scored two triple and he has probably scored more runs than the Eng openeers you have mentioned (probably less than Boycott).
Hayden had been one of the best.
Greenidge and Hayens were solid as openers.

by Hoggy_Bear Wed 02 Nov 2011, 12:25 am

wow wrote:Keppers no way, they are far behind in terms of success as compared to Boucher, Healy and Gilly. even our Dhoni is not doing bad in terms of WK. Prior has along way to go and he lost his ODI place as well so definitley a no. Knott better but he does not rank amongst best.

Knott not among the best 'keepers???? Now you're just having a joke

Spinners- underwood, maybe but he is far behind if success or scalps are the criteria. Kumble, Warne, Murli has taken far many wickets or 10 wickets in innings as compared to any English spinners.

So the only criteria is how many wickets they've taken?
Not average or anything like that?
Pretty silly way of determining greatness given there's so many more tests these days.
Anyway, this thread isn't about who's produced the greater single players, but who's produced more players who acn be regarded as all-time greats. Reckon England have produced quite a few all-time great spinners.

by Hoggy_Bear Wed 02 Nov 2011, 12:31 am

wow wrote:Openers: Gavaskar had max centuries, Sehwag is the amogst elite who have scored two triple and he has probably scored more runs than the Eng openeers you have mentioned (probably less than Boycott).
Hayden had been one of the best.
Greenidge and Hayens were solid as openers.

Again, number of runs is hardly a reasonable measure given that more tests are played these days and, again, it's not about who's produced the best player in each category, but the country who have produced the most players who would qualify in the mind of most people as all-time greats.
In the case of openers India have produced one undoubted all-time great, Gavaskar, and another, Sehwag, who has a strong argument to be given the same accolade. England have IMO produced 3 openers who would be undoubted all-time greats, Hobbs, Sutcliffe and Hutton, and at least another two, Grace and Boycott who have a strong case to be similarly ranked. I reckon that's more than any other nation.

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