Golf Union/Club sanction - thoughts?

Just looking at gauging folks' opinion to the undernoted scenario, wondering how perhaps your club would have handled it.

My 75 year old grandfather in the past few months has had his handicap suspended for 12 months. After undergoing a hernia operation he was advised by the surgeon to put golf on the back burner for the forseeable future (I believe he was advised ~10 weeks due to age). Post-retirement more often than not he would get 2 rounds in per week, in fair weather 3 rounds and as you can imagine he was chomping at the bit from the moment he was in his recovery period.

I don't know the whole ins/outs of what exactly happened but the jist is: that he started playing again with his 4 ball around week 6, on the competition days he didn't enter (nor pay a fee) but did mark and submit a card. This happened on 7 occassions and I gather that all marked cards were under his recorded handicap. Shortly after the 7th card was entered he was summoned to explain himself at a meeting with a few commitee members. Upon which the commitee (after possibly conversing with GUI... this point I am taking at hear say) decided that his handicap would be suspended for 12 months due to serious breach of spirit of the game.

As a first offense through a long membership at the club I feel that this was extremely harsh. He has been extremely stupid/naieve and tbh I have absolutely no idea what he was thinking. Even when the commitee members asked him why he didnt enter the competitions but still submitted a card he told them that it was because the Dr. told him he wasn't yet fit to play, and he didn't enter the comp's as he couldn't compete.

I appreciate how this would look, and I suppose that if i was to hear of a stranger doing something similar my initial reaction would be that perhaps the person is pulling a fast one/cheating, however even so I would still be fairly surprised at the club going to such extreme measures. Especially given that it took the club 7 submitted cards/non-competition entry before they actually made an effort question what was going on. Two years ago another member at the club was found out altering his own scorecard, his handicap was suspended for only Two years.

As i say, just wanting folks thoughts.

Cheers.

On the face of it, this sounds ridiculous.

I'm not sure that I understand what you are saying though - why do you say your Grandad was naive and stupid? He returned 7 cards (non in competition), presumably all under his handicap, and his handicap has been suspended for a year?

Either there's something that you aren't aware of, or there's been a serious misunderstanding. I can't imagine any other reason this would have happened.

Presumably the cards were signed by another member?
I thought you could submit cards from general play these days, for consideration of your handicap? If they say they can't accept them then fair enough, but a ban?

Yeah, this isn't making sense to me, either.

It sounds like you're accepting that your Grandfather did something wrong, but I can't make out what.

the only thing i can think of is that all 7 of the cards would have added 0.1 to his handicap, therefore he may be accused of manufacturing his handicap in preparation of when he is able to compete? i agree though, from the op it is unclear what the issue actually is.

Doesn't make a lot of sense to me either. I can only assume that Gareth (and possibly the committee too) are questioning why Grandpa submitted cards when he was in a period of convalescence, not entering the comps because he didn't feel fit enough to "compete" yet still submitting cards which were (presumably) higher scores than he would have been submitting were he fully fit.

Still sounds a very draconian penalty though unless there is more we aren't aware of

Was he marking and signing another members card for a competition that he did not enter?

if he was only doing it for handicap purposes why didnt he just put that on the card- you cant put monthly medal on something that you havent entered.

is that the problem- that he didnt make it clear.

or was he trying to get free comps?

Doon the Water wrote:Was he marking and signing another members card for a competition that he did not enter?

i think you are allowed to do that as long as you are a member and have a valid handicap- it seems to me as if his granddad was seemingly entering the comps but not paying up the entry fees

Looks that way....pretty sad really.

If it he was entering without paying, how can it take 6 or 7 comps for them to realise. There's surely a reconciliation of entry fees and entrants after each competition.

My thoughts
If he was playing well(which he was) I really cannot understand why after the first couple of rounds he didnt pay the £3 or whatever and play as an entrant.So it does look a bit odd.
I can fully understand he wanted to get back with his regular partners asap
playing off the same tee box and thinking well ill put the card in.
Nothing to stop the handicap sec from cutting him on the basis of those cards and Im sure that its not compulsory to enter the comp.
So ridiculous to suspend -cut the handicap and polite request could he pay the entry in future.

We must be missing something here, as it doesn't stack up. He didn't enter the comp, so didn't pay the entrance fee, so no problems here. he handed in cards, which were signed by a member, so these should be treated as supplimentary cards, and can be used to adjust handicaps in general play. His cards were decent so would probably have earned him a cut, whereas someone engineering a handicap would hand in cards which got him 0.1 added for each card. So I can't see what the problem is, but the club have obviously learnt something else that we're not aware of.

Could it be that he was seen not putting out, as he wasn't in the comp's so getting a lot of gimmees? Or the old chestnut that members can only play off the back tees in club competition, and he should have played off the yellows?

where does it say the scores were good and that he was playing well?

Maybe Gareth will come back and explain a bit more clearly what happened here.

Why did the club not just disqualify him from the competition, that's usually what happens if you haven't entered it. Same as if you forget to sign your card.
Perhaps because he did it seven times. Sure a word in his shell-like would have been sufficient, perhaps the committee is staffed by jobsworths.

ban_bam wrote:where does it say the scores were good and that he was playing well?

From the original post "all marked cards were under his recorded handicap" so that would mean he beat his handicap all 7 rounds?

Hmmm I read that to mean "all marked cards were played in accordance with his existing handicap" - not that he beat that handicap in all 7 rounds (though it could just as easily be read that way)

It doesn’t sound like cheating….. Is the committee having a go because they are losing out on his competition fee? It really does not sound like he has breeched any golfing rules… If he beat his handicap 7 weeks in row it does seem that he is “Fit to play” whatever the doctor said… Are you sure he didn’t do worse than his handicap 7 rounds in a row? Maybe the committee felt that he was just trying to get his handicap up, but even so there is nothing wrong with that, he has played his round he has recorded his score…

Perhaps the club should be named and shamed and then have this thread brough to their attention so they can put forward their side of the story..

Davie wrote:Hmmm I read that to mean "all marked cards were played in accordance with his existing handicap" - not that he beat that handicap in all 7 rounds (though it could just as easily be read that way)

I read it the same as you, Davie.

Sorry to hear about that Gareth. No consolation I know but, assuming there's nothing we don't know, it sounds like they're a bunch of typical golf club Little Hitlers. You know the sort - never have been anything, are nothing and never will be anything but because they're a) a golf club member and b) on a (shock! horror!) committee, they must be important.

Doc wrote:

ban_bam wrote:where does it say the scores were good and that he was playing well?

From the original post "all marked cards were under his recorded handicap" so that would mean he beat his handicap all 7 rounds?

ah - i read that as davie did. still, this needs some clarification from gareth before we're able to make any constructive comments - everything so far is only be speculative without further detail.

Lets be honest, if you cant cut a 75 year old a bit of slack, whatever he's done, then its a bit of a sad state of affairs. But Im sure there will be a few rules are rules bods who wont see it that way.

"We must be missing something here, as it doesn't stack up. He didn't
enter the comp, so didn't pay the entrance fee, so no problems here. he
handed in cards, which were signed by a membe"

if you put the monthly medal at the top of the card or whatever- and dont put handicap pourposes only then its as if he entered the comps but didnt pay!

one of the plus handicap guys at our club refuses to enter the handicap sweep, as he'd generally need to shoot -7 or -8 gross to get into the prizes. don't see a problem in that, you don't pay the fee - you can't win the associated prizes (be those cash or cash and trophy). no reason why his score shouldn't count toward his handicap, and no reason why it can't be published alongside the rest of the results.

ban bam but then you are just playing in general play and you surely need to mark your card as such and no your round shouldnt be published because you are not entering the comp.

i knew a player that used to do what you said above and he got caught out at my club- because what he used to do(chances are your mate may be doing the same - obviously may not off course) was only put in the good rounds , never the bad to stop going up .1

he is entering the scratch sweep (generally only entered by cat 1s) and the magic 2s, so he is involved in the competition in some way i.e. not the same as general play - he's just not interested in the handicap comp and see's the extra £1.50 every week as a waste of time. its fair enough, why pay £40 to enter handicap comps over the season that you have no chance of winning.

also, (low handicap) juniors at our club can play mens medals, but they can't enter any of the sweeps, and can't win the trophies - purely for handicap (and potential bragging) purposes only.

anyway i suppose my point may explain why clubs need to be strict when it comes to comps.

because players can pick and choose when they want to put a card in or not if its so lax.

also its the only money most pro shops get- not on to play a comp and not pay the couple of quid that it costs!!

Ban bam does your club play the 2's club or not- because i make bundles
of that my self- average 1 two a round and that normal quadrouples my
money on the two(doubles my total stake) every round. you plus mate
would be fine then i am sure-he would allways get his money back anyway.

this whole general play thing is also a joke- and many club seceratrys
still agree. handicaps need to be earnt- its not allways about making
sure they are as low as possible , its also about making sure guys arnt
staying artificially low.

edit just noticed you posted above ban- i am not sure what you mean by
sweap- are you just talking about a swindle. or are you sayinmg that its
not manditary to pay for your comps at your club(so you can enter and
not pay)- because thats a new one on me

"he is entering the scratch sweep (generally only entered by cat 1s) and
the magic 2s, so he is involved in the competition in some way i.e. not
the same as general play - he's just not interested in the handicap comp
and see's the extra £1.50 every week as a waste of time. its fair
enough, why pay £40 to enter handicap comps over the season that you
have no chance of winning."

erm so he obviously bags a few quid and is let of the comp entrance fee- look surely the only sweeps would be gross and the 2's club. playing and paying for a handicap comp is surely the only manditory thing for a monthly comp.

quite confused if you can just pick and choose what you play in. and offcourse he has a chance in winning- if he doesnt it means his handicap isnt close to what it shouold be!

sweep / swindle, sure they're one and the same.

basically its £2.50 to enter the handicap sweep and 2s - and extra £1 for the scratch sweep. sweeps are divied up between top 5 places in each category ( A & B ). the scratch sweep tends only to be about £15 to the lowest gross and £5 to 2nd ( as usually only about 20 odd cat 1s playing).

the club also has fixed prizes of £40, £30, £20, £10 for top 4 handicap finishers and £15 for lowest gross. 1st place would usually expect to walk of with about £40 to £50 for the sweep + £40 for the club prize + any 2s money.

as far as i'm aware the pro-shop gets nothing out of the comps.

i think i've only won about £45 on 2s this season. though i did win £60 divided by 4, for making two 2s in a scramble but had to split it with the rest of the team (the scumbags were delighted!).

the system is anything but lax. money / entries all go through the shop - its not a sign-yourself-in-if-you-feel-like-it-before-or-after system.

The thing about this that puzzles me is, if the chap was doing something that the club considers wrong, it's up to the club to tell him and ask him not to do it again. If he then continues, he deserves what he gets. The way the story is related, he had no warning but was just slapped with a 12 month suspension which seems very unjust to me.

ok bam bam so what your saying is is that you dont pay comp fees then.

in all the clubs i have played at - you must pay your comp fee or you are not entered and the winnings are put as credit behind the pro shop(they indirectly benefit by garanteed sales but not directly)

we have swindles at my club but they are not handicap qualifying, obvioulsy some of the time we play swindles and medals at the same time.

basically your club doesnt function the way mine does, and probally not in the same way as the posters either.

the posters grandad was handing in cards yet not signing or paying the entrance- probally putting monthly medal on his card not handicap purposes- that i am sure is the problem- and in that system you could theoritcially get hidden and only put the cards you want in (be that to keep your handicap high or low)

sounds likely, but we'll never know if gareth doesn't tell us!

my away club has a different system again. much prefer my home club one though as the prize money is fantastic. i've won 3x more prize money in the last season than total of 10years previous at my away club.

ban_bam wrote:as far as i'm aware the pro-shop gets nothing out of the comps.

At my place the prizes are in vouchers for the pro shop so while they aren't taking a cut they are still getting income

same-a-same here davie. club prize and magic 2s comes as proshop credit. sweep money is in cash, but i've always added it into my pro account anyway.

so ban bam do you have to pay a comp fee or not

Have just read this, re-read this and read it again. It simply doesnt stackup there's a few things I don't get

1. If after say the first 3 rounds he was on handicap or sub handicap, why did he not start entering comps Dr's advice or not he could see from his scores he could compete.

2. Even if he hs played 7 rounds be at handicap or better, he is not engineering a handicap to be higher than he should be, he has not won the comp so where is the issue.

3. Are the club that thick and run by complete numpties that they could not see the above No's 1&2 so just had a quiet word to see what was going on before running off to big brother

4. What the hell aare the golf union doing implementing a 12month ban on a non issue, if they looked at his cards and found say 5 of the 7 to be sub handicap they could apply rule 19 give him a general playing cut and establish a new playing handicap so there is no advantage to be had when he enters his next comp.

Seriously a 12 month ban what for.... What sort of ban do they implement if yo fart! Death by hanging

ban_bam wrote:basically its £2.50 to enter the handicap sweep and 2s - and extra £1 for the scratch sweep.

^ that is the comp fee

Having just re-read my post, let me correct an error and elaborate on a few points....

- All 7 Cards as far as im aware were above his recorded handicap, rendering his handicap +0.7.
- He did play on the competition days, but didn't enter/pay competition/sweep fee's
- All cards were marked and signed by one of his regular four ball, whilst he also marked/signed a card for another
- The Club/commitee as far as im aware were unaware of how long the DR. recommended he took for rest, only coming to their attention when he was summoned

I haven't spoken to him about it the above/postings are what has been detailed to me by my father, so I don't know if any other issues are involved though I would assume not. I know he feels deflated/let down about the whole situation and as far as I gather he has accepted their punishment as i believe he felt there was little else he could do, sanction seemingly supported up by the Union and well given the reasoning he gave at his meeting its hardly painting a shining light on himself?

The way i read it is that Ban_Bams thought on handicap engineering is what he has been accused/penalised/in breach of. As I said earlier, I know my inital reaction/thought would be if I heard of a stranger doing similar.

Speaking to an ex-club captain at work today, he detailed that had his club had noticed an issue within the first card, he would have simply been asked why he didn't enter the competition yet entered a card, in lieu of his answer would have been given a private dressing down for playing when unfit thus potentially gaining a competitive advantage and advised only to return when fit. He also added that they would have put the breach to a commitee vote on a 2 stroke handicap deduction. Potentially another harsh punishment, though at least on the face of things staying competitive. The chappy stated that if it went as far as 7 cards that he didn't actually know what they'd do/recommend as actioning as it shouldn't ever go that far due to competition checks/admin (adding that it wouldnt make the player or indeed the club look particularly good, to Union/members/vistiors), he said that most likely any handicap increases would have been deducted and most likely they would have imposed a further deduction of strokes to be decided by the commitee.

I'm just saddened by the whole affair, I don't believe that there was anything sinister behind his actions, just stupidity.

And that's the whole problem in a nutshell Gareth, that he was "summoned" by the committee, says it all really,

Why was he stupid?

I keep reading what you are saying, but as far as I can see your Grandad hasn't done anything wrong at all. I suggest that someone asks the club for a written explanation why this has happened because as far as I can see there's nothing that he's done wrong.

This is a ridiculous situation for your Grandfather it seems to me that all he's done is play in a fourball whilst the other three were in a competition he has not entered the comp but marked a card, which is similar to a handicap golfer marking a single players card playing in competition. His score obviously didn't count in the competition because he hadn't entered. What's it got to do with the club as to whether he's fit to play or not (I'm sure I'm not fit to play most Sunday mornings!)

If he played above his handicap it meant that he wasn't playing very well, so perhaps his handicap should reflect this. Unless something else happened or if he did indeed break any rules I find the clubs attitude astonishing and, if it happened to me, I would be out of there pronto.

ban_bam wrote:

ban_bam wrote:basically its £2.50 to enter the handicap sweep and 2s - and extra £1 for the scratch sweep.

^ that is the comp fee

right so your plus handicapper can just get out of paying part of it- is that just for him or can anyone do it

Why is he entering a card ?? that's the real question !! fair enough he wants to play with his pals, If the club allows this during medal comps fine !!, what is the clubs mechanism to say whether hes entered the comp eg : signed in etc.. surely the club should be disgarding these cards !! your either in the comp or your not !!. Our club would possibly allow this if there's space and nobody waiting !! I still don't understand why you would enter a card if your not in the comp, If paying a fee is the only way to enter, then why has it not been highlighted earlier ??

"The way i read it is that Ban_Bams thought on handicap engineering is
what he has been accused/penalised/in breach of. As I said earlier, I
know my inital reaction/thought would be if I heard of a stranger doing
similar."

ok so its as i said, pretty obvious really. you cant just randomly put cards in , there is no proof that you arnt just sticking cards in to engineer your handicap,from anyones perspective he could have played in many comps yet only put the bad scores in.

dr_peeps wrote:Why is he entering a card ?? that's the real question !! fair enough he wants to play with his pals, If the club allows this during medal comps fine !!, what is the clubs mechanism to say whether hes entered the comp eg : signed in etc.. surely the club should be disgarding these cards !! your either in the comp or your not !!. Our club would possibly allow this if there's space and nobody waiting !! I still don't understand why you would enter a card if your not in the comp, If paying a fee is the only way to enter, then why has it not been highlighted earlier ??

exactly- i have known people to do the above when they want to get cut or go up. they only put cards in that help there cause and that is what he is getting done for.

Grandad is 75, he's played 7 times above handicap from what I can gather over a number of weeks fairly consecutively.

75 'engineering your handicap'

He must be a ruthless old boy gearing up for the club championship - priceless.