Fever in the Aviva II – this time, it’s provincial

First topic message reminder :

Leinster v Munster on Friday night. Should be a cracker, all internationals will be back with both teams and we’ll both be going hammer and tongs at it to get up to speed for the HC the following week.

Let the banter begin.

Turnips….

Thread update. Teams announced:

Leinster also name team

15: Rob Kearney
14: Isa Nacewa
13: Fergus McFadden
12: Gordon D'Arcy
11: Luke Fitzgerald
10: Jonathan Sexton
9: Isaac Boss

1: Cian Healy
2: Richardt Strauss
3: Mike Ross
4: Leo Cullen CAPTAIN
5: Devin Toner
6: Sean O'Brien
7: Shane Jennings
8: Jamie Heaslip

REPLACEMENTS:

16: Sean Cronin
17: Heinke van der Merwe
18: Jamie Hagan
19: Kevin McLaughlin
20: Rhys Ruddock
21: Eoin Reddan
22: Ian Madigan
23: Eoin O'Malley


Munster:

Wian du Preez, Damien Varley, BJ Botha

Donnacha O'Callaghan, Paul O'Connell

Donnacha Ryan, Denis Leamy, Niall Ronan

Conor Murray, Ronan O'Gara

Lifeimi Mafi, Will Chambers

Keith Earls, Johne Murphy, Doug Howlett

Bench: Denis Fogarty, Marcus Horan, John Hayes, Peter O'Mahony, James Coughlan, Tomas O'Leary, Ian Keatley, Danny Barnes

Sin é wrote:
God, someone got out of bed on the wrong side today. No need to be insulting.

Creative Move 1: The ball is passed to SOB who runs down the middle of the pitch knocking everyone over who comes near him, with someone on his shoulder to take an offload (note: that might not work anymore because everyone will have seen the Ireland v Wales game).

Nacewa runs into space from fullback. Rob Kearney runs into contact. Thats the difference.

POM does have a discipline problem (and I'm sure all his U20s team mates like Ruddock know exactly how to wind him up) - it would be like throwing a lighted match into a fireworks factory starting him. If Munster had a load of fit backrows available for Heineken Cup duty next week, fair enough, let him loose. But introducing him for the latter part of the match might be the better option.

Anyway, Ronan needs to be match fit just as much as the rest of them.

People keep saying that Kearney doesn't run into space; this is a myth. At times he may not pass when he should but his instinct is to look for space to run into.

If you think Leinster's whole gameplan is based around giving it to sob and hoping in runs over everyone fine I'm not going to bother.

POM at times may react angrily but he has one yellow for Munster that I can remember and that was for a team warning and he was unlucky in making one infringement to far. If he can't handle the pressure of Munster/Leinste there is no way he is going to make it as an international player. I think its much more likely that hes not being risked due to the head injury last week.

Ronan has already had more than enough game time for Munster.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I know why he is playing 7 for Munster now, because they don't really have the options there atm but it is when people are suggesting he has the skillset to play 7? No he doesn't. He isn't a fetcher, he does not play anything like the likes of McCaw, Warburton, Pocock etc. So why do you think he has that skillset when he quite clearly doesn't?

Also Ireland do not really have that great depth at 8.. Heaslip and O'Brien really. Leamy at a push. However POM is definitely a better 8 than Leamy, O'Brien is best at flanker and Heaslip hasn't been in form. POM will be our next 8.

He might turn out as our next 8 but he might turn out as a 7. People have always said that Wally wasn't a 7 but he has played against the best and never come of worse. He might not be a fetcher in the mold of mccaw but he has shown this season that he can adapt his game and play well there. There is more to being a 7 than winning turnovers. He has shown this season that he is capable of linking play as well as any other Irish which is a traditional role of a 7.

Wallace is not the same player as POM, nor SOB nor any of our current flankers. He is the closest thing we have to a 7, even if he is again not the fetching openside like the others. He still has a great workrate and his support play is excellent. Also, Ireland have come up worse against sides with a true 7, so that is not true about Wallace never coming off worse. POM has played 7 once this season also, so he hasn't shown he can adapt there..

The best sides in the world have true 7s, and it was a point that was made over the world cup when the 4 best teams in it had true 7s. If you just shift 8s or 6s there you can see the weakness. It is as simple as that.

EDIT: When I say the closest thing we have, I also mean our best option. Jennings/Faloon are both proper 7s though Jennings has proved not to be international standard, and Faloon has a long way to go to be considered.

DOD_

You did indeed predict Kearney at 15 well done sir.
I do still believe it to be an awful call for Leinster. nacewa is a better 15 for Leinster's style I think that is generally agreed upon but what I want to discuss the notion that he will get as much ball at 14 as 15.

This is wrong.

First of all at 15 the ball is kicked to you more and more often than not you can run either left or right while moving forwards on the wing you get the ball less, and more often from box kicks with a chaser relatively close also generally you can only move infield unless it is a very poor kick and over extended chase.

Secondly the chase can be lazier and get away with it if the kick is placed to the wing. Kick to a 15 in the middle of the park if the chase is lazy and dog-legged the 15 can go for gaps either side of where he catches the ball where as if the ball is kicked left and there is a gap on the far right, that winger probably won't get through that gap.

Thirdly, Nacewa is great at coming from deep and attacking the line and looking for offloads from players making the crash. Kearney isn't as varied in his joining of the line, he comes in between 13 and openside winger and we rarely see him come in anywhere else. Nacewa varies this and is therefore much harder to defend against.

Nacewa is a much stronger defender on one on one tackles.

Kearney is a better fielder and kicker although Isa is good at this also.

Not saying they should switch as I feel that Isa is a better winger than Rob too but one of our best players is being moved from a position of high attacking influence to one with less influence and I think this is a mistake for Leinster albeit a good thing for Ireland.


If Shaggy was fit I wonder how this scenario would have worked out.....

Ps: I think Kearney is a good 15 just not as good as Isa.

"Doc is over 30 and has been poor in the vast majority of games for the past year. He still raise his game when he wants to for the big occasion but he no longer has the consistency of playing well week in week out. I think Ryan at 4 would improve that team but playing an actual 8 and an actual rugby player at 7 would have helped more."

Regarding DOC that is boll.x but of course its your opinion (the wrong one mind) given he has been very consistent unlike some others.

Ryan needs to step up and perform he has not got that physicality yet and bulk needed for second row (he is getting there).

I would prefer to see Ryan playing at second row over DOC, I really don't think consistent is the word I would use to describe DOC's performances..

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:
God, someone got out of bed on the wrong side today. No need to be insulting.

Creative Move 1: The ball is passed to SOB who runs down the middle of the pitch knocking everyone over who comes near him, with someone on his shoulder to take an offload (note: that might not work anymore because everyone will have seen the Ireland v Wales game).

Nacewa runs into space from fullback. Rob Kearney runs into contact. Thats the difference.

POM does have a discipline problem (and I'm sure all his U20s team mates like Ruddock know exactly how to wind him up) - it would be like throwing a lighted match into a fireworks factory starting him. If Munster had a load of fit backrows available for Heineken Cup duty next week, fair enough, let him loose. But introducing him for the latter part of the match might be the better option.

Anyway, Ronan needs to be match fit just as much as the rest of them.

People keep saying that Kearney doesn't run into space; this is a myth. At times he may not pass when he should but his instinct is to look for space to run into.

If you think Leinster's whole gameplan is based around giving it to sob and hoping in runs over everyone fine I'm not going to bother.

POM at times may react angrily but he has one yellow for Munster that I can remember and that was for a team warning and he was unlucky in making one infringement to far. If he can't handle the pressure of Munster/Leinste there is no way he is going to make it as an international player. I think its much more likely that hes not being risked due to the head injury last week.

Ronan has already had more than enough game time for Munster.

Actually, there are quite a few good ball carriers in the Leinster forwards, so its not always Sean O'Brien. The other major creative part is down to Nacewa. Leinster always have had an import to do the creative work. Thats why Sexton couldn't get a look in with the Doc.

POM keeps getting into fights and probably is lucky not to have been carded before this. He is only young, so he will learn - but I don't think this particular game is a good place to start, particularly having lost Quinlan & Wallace for this season.

As for Ronan - like it or lump it, he needs to be fully fit and ready for heineken Cup rugby - and considering you rate him so lowly, surely even you might think practice might make better.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Wallace is not the same player as POM, nor SOB nor any of our current flankers. He is the closest thing we have to a 7, even if he is again not the fetching openside like the others. He still has a great workrate and his support play is excellent. Also, Ireland have come up worse against sides with a true 7, so that is not true about Wallace never coming off worse. POM has played 7 once this season also, so he hasn't shown he can adapt there..

The best sides in the world have true 7s, and it was a point that was made over the world cup when the 4 best teams in it had true 7s. If you just shift 8s or 6s there you can see the weakness. It is as simple as that.

EDIT: When I say the closest thing we have, I also mean our best option. Jennings/Faloon are both proper 7s though Jennings has proved not to be international standard, and Faloon has a long way to go to be considered.

He's played more than one game at 7 this season and has played there on a number of occasions for cork con. Just because he isn't make a load of turnovers in a match doesn't mean hes not affecting whats happening at the breakdown.

On wallace just because Ireland have lost doesn't mean that Wally has come off worse. There have been plenty of games against New Zealand where Ireland have been outclassed but Wally has played superbly.

It really depends how you play, france were outstanding against New Zealand in the world cup final yet they don't play with a traditional openside. Jennings isn't even that good at turning over ball, he rarely ever manages to turn ball over what hes so effective at doing is slowing down opposition ball. Thats why hes considered at good 7.

Sin é wrote:

Actually, there are quite a few good ball carriers in the Leinster forwards, so its not always Sean O'Brien. The other major creative part is down to Nacewa. Leinster always have had an import to do the creative work. Thats why Sexton couldn't get a look in with the Doc.

POM keeps getting into fights and probably is lucky not to have been carded before this. He is only young, so he will learn - but I don't think this particular game is a good place to start, particularly having lost Quinlan & Wallace for this season.

As for Ronan - like it or lump it, he needs to be fully fit and ready for heineken Cup rugby - and considering you rate him so lowly, surely even you might think practice might make better.

Sexton couldn't get a look in when contemponi was there because he wasn't ready for it yet. He had an absolute nightmare of a churchhill cup in 08 and was not particularly good for Leinster in the first part of 08/09 but had shown enough glimpses of class to suggest he would eventually come good. You do know that Leinster's most creative player for the last decade is Irish? Or do you not consider O'Driscoll creative?

POM has been very good at keeping his temper in check as captain with the exception of one occasion.

Ronan is over 30, hes not going to get better his problems aren he isn't physical enough and he is going to be blown away yet again tomorrow.


DOD; In the last year DOC has had highs against Wales and England but was poor throughout the hec and disappeared against Wales. He is one of my favourite players but he is on the decline.

Also an opinion can't be wrong unfortunately.

There is a huge step up from playing for cork con to Munster and then internationally.. so that argument doesn't have much to it imo. I also never mentioned he doesn't affect the breakdown, he is very aggressive in the rucks and effective but he doesn't play the fetching role, he is not the type of player who can read the breakdown and quickly get there first to disrupt. He is more aggressive at knocking players off the ball, and at carrying the ball forward and focusing on the game he wants to play.

Wallace has played well of course but maybe the reason Ireland are not beating these sides is because of our lack of 7? We beat Australia in the World Cup obviously, but who was absent from their team? I don't think I need to say. Had he been playing I don't think our pack would have been so dominant.

Actually Dusautoir is their openside. He plays like one, though wears the 6 shirt as France play a left/right system. He is their fetcher. Looked how well he played in the final, outplaying McCaw (just like back in 2007). I didn't say he was good at turning over ball nor did I say that is what makes a good 7. They must be first to the breakdown, be smart about when to disrupt and when not to, and be a support player to the ball carriers. It is a very different game to that in which a 6 or 8 would play.

David Wallace is no more a 7 than SOB is. Neither is Dusitoir.

This lack of a 7 thing is a red herring. Ireland haven't had a natural 7 since Keith Gleeson or Jonny O'Connor.

The back row is about balance and Ireland have been and still are one of the best teams at the world at the breakdown. Only NZ are better IMO and what people keep forgetting is that we were dominating the tackle area for periods against Wales and Warburton couldn't get into the game.

What changed was that when Ireland went behind we took some poor options and runners got isolated.

This stuff about us needing a 7 is nonsence. Yes its important to have that option but ultimately you need to get the best players on the pitch and top players should be able to adapt.

Harinordique doesn't become a bad player when he moves between 7 and 8 and neither should SOB or POM.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:There is a huge step up from playing for cork con to Munster and then internationally.. so that argument doesn't have much to it imo. I also never mentioned he doesn't affect the breakdown, he is very aggressive in the rucks and effective but he doesn't play the fetching role, he is not the type of player who can read the breakdown and quickly get there first to disrupt. He is more aggressive at knocking players off the ball, and at carrying the ball forward and focusing on the game he wants to play.

Wallace has played well of course but maybe the reason Ireland are not beating these sides is because of our lack of 7? We beat Australia in the World Cup obviously, but who was absent from their team? I don't think I need to say. Had he been playing I don't think our pack would have been so dominant.

Actually Dusautoir is their openside. He plays like one, though wears the 6 shirt as France play a left/right system. He is their fetcher. Looked how well he played in the final, outplaying McCaw (just like back in 2007). I didn't say he was good at turning over ball nor did I say that is what makes a good 7. They must be first to the breakdown, be smart about when to disrupt and when not to, and be a support player to the ball carriers. It is a very different game to that in which a 6 or 8 would play.

I'm sorry if you are actually describing dusatoir as a fetcher then I'm stopping this argument.

roddersm wrote:David Wallace is no more a 7 than SOB is. Neither is Dusitoir.

This lack of a 7 thing is a red herring. Ireland haven't had a natural 7 since Keith Gleeson or Jonny O'Connor.

The back row is about balance and Ireland have been and still are one of the best teams at the world at the breakdown. Only NZ are better IMO and what people keep forgetting is that we were dominating the tackle area for periods against Wales and Warburton couldn't get into the game.

What changed was that when Ireland went behind we took some poor options and runners got isolated.

This stuff about us needing a 7 is nonsence. Yes its important to have that option but ultimately you need to get the best players on the pitch and top players should be able to adapt.

Harinordique doesn't become a bad player when he moves between 7 and 8 and neither should SOB or POM.

What cost us the welsh game was that rog and darcy both played like drains and we had no answer to roberts and north who consistenly made yards in attack. We only had ferris and sob carrying which meant that wales were prepared and were able to stop them and we had no alternatives which is one of the reasons why we need tuohy to come through soon to give us another strong ball carrying option. We lost the match due to a lack of big ball carriers in the backs and too few good carriers in the forwards. Along with a sh*t game plan and gaffney not knowing what to do with a backline.

roddersm wrote:David Wallace is no more a 7 than SOB is. Neither is Dusitoir.

This lack of a 7 thing is a red herring. Ireland haven't had a natural 7 since Keith Gleeson or Jonny O'Connor.

The back row is about balance and Ireland have been and still are one of the best teams at the world at the breakdown. Only NZ are better IMO and what people keep forgetting is that we were dominating the tackle area for periods against Wales and Warburton couldn't get into the game.

What changed was that when Ireland went behind we took some poor options and runners got isolated.

This stuff about us needing a 7 is nonsence. Yes its important to have that option but ultimately you need to get the best players on the pitch and top players should be able to adapt.

Harinordique doesn't become a bad player when he moves between 7 and 8 and neither should SOB or POM.

Wallace is more of a 7 than O'Brien etc. He is a better support player and better at the breakdown. However he is not the traditional 7. As I said Dusuatoir does play like an openside actually Rodders.. He plays like the best of them, though many people assume he is a blindside as they don't realise France play left/right. Watch where they are in the scrums if you don't believe me. That also answers your question about Harinordiquy. He isn't an openside, he plays like a blindside but wears 7 on his back. That is how it works in France. How is it nonsense when we see the effect the opensides have on the game? When Jennings came on in the HEC final we saw the difference as O'Brien could play his game at 6. The top teams in the world (this was shown in the world cup) had proper 7s and not 6s moved to 7.

Playing all the top players out of position etc is the mistake that NZ have made in the past trying to play certain players in different positions. The top players in their own positions should be playing. Would all our best players be playing if 3 of them turned out to be scrum halves? It doesn't work like that. You play whoever is best in their position.

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Actually, there are quite a few good ball carriers in the Leinster forwards, so its not always Sean O'Brien. The other major creative part is down to Nacewa. Leinster always have had an import to do the creative work. Thats why Sexton couldn't get a look in with the Doc.

POM keeps getting into fights and probably is lucky not to have been carded before this. He is only young, so he will learn - but I don't think this particular game is a good place to start, particularly having lost Quinlan & Wallace for this season.

As for Ronan - like it or lump it, he needs to be fully fit and ready for heineken Cup rugby - and considering you rate him so lowly, surely even you might think practice might make better.

Sexton couldn't get a look in when contemponi was there because he wasn't ready for it yet. He had an absolute nightmare of a churchhill cup in 08 and was not particularly good for Leinster in the first part of 08/09 but had shown enough glimpses of class to suggest he would eventually come good. You do know that Leinster's most creative player for the last decade is Irish? Or do you not consider O'Driscoll creative?

POM has been very good at keeping his temper in check as captain with the exception of one occasion.

Ronan is over 30, hes not going to get better his problems aren he isn't physical enough and he is going to be blown away yet again tomorrow.


DOD; In the last year DOC has had highs against Wales and England but was poor throughout the hec and disappeared against Wales. He is one of my favourite players but he is on the decline.

Also an opinion can't be wrong unfortunately.

First of all BOD has individual brilliance, is a great flanker & finisher (note the high personal try tally) and is Ireland's best players. Most of his big thing in recent years though, has been his defence.

POM was about ready to explode in the tv interview after the Ospreys game and really had to work on not exploding on tv. God knows what he was like on the pitch.

Ronan was 29 on the 14th Sept. That doesn't really matter though, because even if he was 39 he needs to be performing to the best of his ability for the rest of the season.

I think you are being harsh on DOC - he has played an awful lot of rugby in the last 2/3 years with POC being injured so much. He could be just jaded.

Yeah val, show your maturity by trying to belittle me and say you are "stopping this argument" for me having a different opinion on a player. As you pointed out above , opinions can't be wrong eh? I think he does play like a fetcher, though has a more rounded game compared to Pocock etc.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yeah val, show your maturity by trying to belittle me and say you are "stopping this argument" for me having a different opinion on a player. As you pointed out above , opinions can't be wrong eh? I think he does play like a fetcher, though has a more rounded game compared to Pocock etc.

You yourself have stated that he doesn't play like an openside yet you've described hims as a fetcher. He is not a fetcher, he is a tackler and a linkman. There is a reason that he is called the dark destroyer and it is because of the amount of tackles he makes in matches. He has never been a dominant figure at the breakdown. You've accepted that in France there is no such thing as an openside or a blindside yet are saying that Ireland are not able to play like this. Under Kidney for munster and ireland, he has always chosen the best combination of players possible and said to hell with them playing in their specific positions, its all about the balance of the backrow. Duasatoir is criticised in France due to his lack of fetching ability yet you're using him as an example of why POM won't be able to play there. I sorry if I belittled you, and no opinions can't be wrong but facts can and a fetcher is one thing that dusatoir isn't.

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Actually, there are quite a few good ball carriers in the Leinster forwards, so its not always Sean O'Brien. The other major creative part is down to Nacewa. Leinster always have had an import to do the creative work. Thats why Sexton couldn't get a look in with the Doc.

POM keeps getting into fights and probably is lucky not to have been carded before this. He is only young, so he will learn - but I don't think this particular game is a good place to start, particularly having lost Quinlan & Wallace for this season.

As for Ronan - like it or lump it, he needs to be fully fit and ready for heineken Cup rugby - and considering you rate him so lowly, surely even you might think practice might make better.

Sexton couldn't get a look in when contemponi was there because he wasn't ready for it yet. He had an absolute nightmare of a churchhill cup in 08 and was not particularly good for Leinster in the first part of 08/09 but had shown enough glimpses of class to suggest he would eventually come good. You do know that Leinster's most creative player for the last decade is Irish? Or do you not consider O'Driscoll creative?

POM has been very good at keeping his temper in check as captain with the exception of one occasion.

Ronan is over 30, hes not going to get better his problems aren he isn't physical enough and he is going to be blown away yet again tomorrow.


DOD; In the last year DOC has had highs against Wales and England but was poor throughout the hec and disappeared against Wales. He is one of my favourite players but he is on the decline.

Also an opinion can't be wrong unfortunately.

First of all BOD has individual brilliance, is a great flanker & finisher (note the high personal try tally) and is Ireland's best players. Most of his big thing in recent years though, has been his defence.

POM was about ready to explode in the tv interview after the Ospreys game and really had to work on not exploding on tv. God knows what he was like on the pitch.

Ronan was 29 on the 14th Sept. That doesn't really matter though, because even if he was 39 he needs to be performing to the best of his ability for the rest of the season.

I think you are being harsh on DOC - he has played an awful lot of rugby in the last 2/3 years with POC being injured so much. He could be just jaded.

Maybe tiredness is a reason for DOCs mixed form but he is getting older and it does take a toll.

On POM he may have been close to exploding but he didn't and thats the important thing. I'd prefer he played with a bit of anger, he just needs to channel it better.

valjester wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yeah val, show your maturity by trying to belittle me and say you are "stopping this argument" for me having a different opinion on a player. As you pointed out above , opinions can't be wrong eh? I think he does play like a fetcher, though has a more rounded game compared to Pocock etc.

You yourself have stated that he doesn't play like an openside yet you've described hims as a fetcher. He is not a fetcher, he is a tackler and a linkman. There is a reason that he is called the dark destroyer and it is because of the amount of tackles he makes in matches. He has never been a dominant figure at the breakdown. You've accepted that in France there is no such thing as an openside or a blindside yet are saying that Ireland are not able to play like this. Under Kidney for munster and ireland, he has always chosen the best combination of players possible and said to hell with them playing in their specific positions, its all about the balance of the backrow. Duasatoir is criticised in France due to his lack of fetching ability yet you're using him as an example of why POM won't be able to play there. I sorry if I belittled you, and no opinions can't be wrong but facts can and a fetcher is one thing that dusatoir isn't.

It is fine, though I do think Dusautoir is destructive at the breakdown, and he played like that in the final. He made turnovers and played McCaw off the park. In general he is a defensive minded player, if there's one thing we should agree on I think it is that. POM and O'Brien and other non-opensides who play 7 are attack minded players. For Ireland I am happy enough with Wallace at 7 because I think he is more effective than most other options we have. Though Ireland are such underperformers against these bigger sides, and part of me thinks we need an openside. We do not have balance in the backrow. Also I'm not using Dusautoir as an example of why POM shouldn't play there, I am saying he is not anything like POM though, other people were the first to point out the french backrow not having an openside.

Also, POM is a very aggressive player so the fact he shows such passion is a great thing to me. He hasn't let it get the better of him lately and if he can control it he shouldn't get rid of that edge to his game. His aggression is something Munster and Ireland really need.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Wallace has played well of course but maybe the reason Ireland are not beating these sides is because of our lack of 7? We beat Australia in the World Cup obviously, but who was absent from their team? I don't think I need to say. Had he been playing I don't think our pack would have been so dominant.

The Lions management had Wally at 7 as well. Back in the day, Wally was always regarded as a better 8, but he played 7 to accommodate Foley.

I don't know if you've seen the interview with POM in the Irish Indo. Says he likes playing 7.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/heineken-cup/from-crib-to-captain-2921842.html

He hasn't said it is his favourite position but that he enjoys it, and he confirms here the difference of a 7 from a 6 or an 8. Seriously though, watching POM lead Munster from 8 a few weeks ago in his MOM performance he looked like our future 8. It was a fantastic performance and his aggression, carrying ability and all around ability was true class.

He is right about needing that edge to be a backrower also (take note Heaslip and get back into your old form!)

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

valjester wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yeah val, show your maturity by trying to belittle me and say you are "stopping this argument" for me having a different opinion on a player. As you pointed out above , opinions can't be wrong eh? I think he does play like a fetcher, though has a more rounded game compared to Pocock etc.

You yourself have stated that he doesn't play like an openside yet you've described hims as a fetcher. He is not a fetcher, he is a tackler and a linkman. There is a reason that he is called the dark destroyer and it is because of the amount of tackles he makes in matches. He has never been a dominant figure at the breakdown. You've accepted that in France there is no such thing as an openside or a blindside yet are saying that Ireland are not able to play like this. Under Kidney for munster and ireland, he has always chosen the best combination of players possible and said to hell with them playing in their specific positions, its all about the balance of the backrow. Duasatoir is criticised in France due to his lack of fetching ability yet you're using him as an example of why POM won't be able to play there. I sorry if I belittled you, and no opinions can't be wrong but facts can and a fetcher is one thing that dusatoir isn't.

It is fine, though I do think Dusautoir is destructive at the breakdown, and he played like that in the final. He made turnovers and played McCaw off the park. In general he is a defensive minded player, if there's one thing we should agree on I think it is that. POM and O'Brien and other non-opensides who play 7 are attack minded players. For Ireland I am happy enough with Wallace at 7 because I think he is more effective than most other options we have. Though Ireland are such underperformers against these bigger sides, and part of me thinks we need an openside. We do not have balance in the backrow. Also I'm not using Dusautoir as an example of why POM shouldn't play there, I am saying he is not anything like POM though, other people were the first to point out the french backrow not having an openside.

I still think that POM is most similar to Harinorduquy of any player I've seen. At the moment the backrow of ferris, sob and heaslip is balanced. Heaslip takes over a lot of the duties of a 7 at the breakdown in order to leave sob free to run with the ball. Wally, ferris and heaslip was very balanced as well. We have to be careful not to throw everything out and start again because of the Welsh game. The main problems from that game imo were rog, darcy and a lack of carriers. Our backs are quite small and we rely on healy, ferris and sob to give us go forward ball. The gameplan we used was suicidal with rog at 10 and played right into the hands of the welsh defence. Hopefully we will have learned from that and can improve.

On dusatoir, I watched him play every week for the last few years and all I hear from the fans in the stands is how hes a brilliant player but why doesn't he get more involved in the breakdown. The last place you'll find him his in a ruck because as soon as hes made a tackle hes up looking to make another.

edit; On your above post, I'm not disagreeing that there is a difference between the three roles, just that players can play more than one position. I agree with you that he will probably become an 8 but I think he can become an outstanding 7 until then.

"I still think that POM is most similar to Harinorduquy of any player I've seen. At the moment the backrow of ferris, sob and heaslip is balanced. Heaslip takes over a lot of the duties of a 7 at the breakdown in order to leave sob free to run with the ball. Wally, ferris and heaslip was very balanced as well. We have to be careful not to throw everything out and start again because of the Welsh game. The main problems from that game imo were rog, darcy and a lack of carriers. Our backs are quite small and we rely on healy, ferris and sob to give us go forward ball. The gameplan we used was suicidal with rog at 10 and played right into the hands of the welsh defence. Hopefully we will have learned from that and can improve."

+1
Great post

Val - I agree with most of what you are saying. On that welsh game, we got caught out tactically, some of our players didn't perform above themselves and met a Welsh side with confidence (which is the most dangerous kind of welsh side).

It would be great to unearth a McCaw/Brussow/Hill/Gleeson/Waugh type player who can focus purely on the breakdown but there really isn't a player available at the minute for Ireland with those talents. Should Dom Ryan be turned into this player, I'm not sure. Can POM? again I'm not sure but our problem is we rely on a number of players to turn into a 7 for one in every 10 rucks and the best teams out there have a natural 7 who is involved in one of every two rucks.




On this game, its great to wet the appetite for the season. All the big guns back. A no holds barred match. Lots of intensity and some missed calls (50-50 decisions) to add some more spice. The regular season really does start tomorrow!


P.S. love the banter on here, keep it coming as it only adds to the occasion.

DOC is on the decline....possible

But still better than any alternative and once the best player in that position is playing then I'm happy with it.

Heaslip needs to improve form he has been rubbish to be honest.

POM will come good. He will be an Irish captain at some stage. In fact I would prefer if McGahan had left him as Captain when POC returned

Last year Leinsters creativity in midfield came from Sexton. He was always breaking the gainline with dummy passes and bursts of speed. His link ups with BOD made the most of BODs vision and rugby brain, while it was Sextons pace that made the break. The loops that Leinster executed so well were a good example.

Nacewa was another very creative player. But Leinsters great attacking was not just down to him. It was a combination of a grizzled tight five, and rampaging backrow, a great flyhalf and good back five. It was the whole package that resulted in the team scoring an average of about 30 points per game throughout the entire Heineken Cup.

I think Dom Ryan should be groomed into that player, (a 7 who hits every 2nd or 3rd ruck) I think he has all the right attributes.

TBH Faloon is the player I really was hoping (still am) to come through as our 7. Thing is, Ulster aren't even playing him right now, so unless he really works his ass off from now until the 6 nations/summer he will miss out his oppurtunity.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Last year Leinsters creativity in midfield came from Sexton. He was always breaking the gainline with dummy passes and bursts of speed. His link ups with BOD made the most of BODs vision and rugby brain, while it was Sextons pace that made the break. The loops that Leinster executed so well were a good example.

Nacewa was another very creative player. But Leinsters great attacking was not just down to him. It was a combination of a grizzled tight five, and rampaging backrow, a great flyhalf and good back five. It was the whole package that resulted in the team scoring an average of about 30 points per game throughout the entire Heineken Cup.

Sexton is a one trick pony...the loop around the centres...it came off a couple of times...

Now dont get me wrong he is a good outhalf (not a great one) but he needs to have more up his sleeve. He isnt a Dan Carter or even a Trinh-Duc in terms of being able to make a break. Going forward I think Madigan or Keatley are better options.

Fever in the Aviva?

Don't you mean Mumps in the T14? -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/15575853.stm

Sexton is a one trick pony

Yep. He sure is. I can't remember him doing a loop in the HEC final though. His inspirational half time speech, two tries, three conversions and four penalties must have been a second trick he's acquired. I'm sure that'll be figured out now too.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I think Dom Ryan should be groomed into that player, (a 7 who hits every 2nd or 3rd ruck) I think he has all the right attributes.

I don't think he has the brains to be a 7. Hes more of a 6 than a 7. Faloon looked to have the best potential but as Rory is saying hes being f**ded around by Ulster. Eoghan Grace looked to have great potential, everytime he played in the AIL he was always the best player on the pitch but he never got a look in with Munster and he has a cr*p luck with injuries since he moved away.

Looking at the backrows coming through and most of them are 6s and 8s, we're(Ireland and Ulster) cursed with the injury to Pollock, he would have been the equal of Warburton at least.

Dom Ryan isn't smart enough to be a 7 I would agree with that. Maybe Butler could do a job there for Munster but not sure about Ireland.

I agree with what the last two posts have said about Ryan. Pollock was a real talent. Very unfortunate. Lets just hope Faloon will get his gametime in the HEC this year, and prove people wrong about his lack of pace/strength. He is a smart player and has great potential imo.

Speaking of Ulster, anyone know when their squad will be released for saturdays game?

Thomond wrote:Dom Ryan isn't smart enough to be a 7 I would agree with that. Maybe Butler could do a job there for Munster but not sure about Ireland.

Butler has looked very disappointing any time hes played for Munster yet he looked the equal of Ruddock and Ryan when he played u20.
Maybe Jordi Murphy might be worth a shout even though he has a lot of people ahead of him at Leinster. Leckey at Ulster has potential as well but once again the two of them are probably more 6s than 7s.

One I forgot about is Brian O'Hara, he was captain of the u20 team with ruddock, ryan and butler until he got injured and missed out on the squad but got a late call up. He has been class whenever I've seen him play but is very light and a bit injury prone. If he could make it, he is your typical traditional 7 in the style of mccaw and whoever you want to mention. If he makes we will have a gem but like pollock injuries could f**k him up and he has the additional problem of being very slight.

Ireland had more possession and territory in every game they played in the World Cup. So I don't think we're a team being starved of ball due to the lack of a fetcher. I wish we did have a great fetcher. But we don't. And our pack still gave us plenty of possession against Wales in the World Cup. Our complete lack of creativity and penetration in midfield and inability to score points against Wales that was the main problem.

I see Dom Ryan as a tackling flanker in the mould of Dusatoir. Seriously though the French never have an out and out fetcher. They just have left and right flankers. The South Africans won a World Cup without a fetcher. It's a specialist skill. We have nobody to match Pocock or McCaw. But a team can make up for the lack of Pocock type player.

Leinster 45-0 Munster. Turnips to get mashed roysh.
Please do not adjust your mind-sets. Normal service will be resumed.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Wallace is more of a 7 than O'Brien etc. He is a better support player and better at the breakdown. However he is not the traditional 7. As I said Dusuatoir does play like an openside actually Rodders.. He plays like the best of them, though many people assume he is a blindside as they don't realise France play left/right. Watch where they are in the scrums if you don't believe me. That also answers your question about Harinordiquy. He isn't an openside, he plays like a blindside but wears 7 on his back. That is how it works in France. How is it nonsense when we see the effect the opensides have on the game? When Jennings came on in the HEC final we saw the difference as O'Brien could play his game at 6. The top teams in the world (this was shown in the world cup) had proper 7s and not 6s moved to 7.

Playing all the top players out of position etc is the mistake that NZ have made in the past trying to play certain players in different positions. The top players in their own positions should be playing. Would all our best players be playing if 3 of them turned out to be scrum halves? It doesn't work like that. You play whoever is best in their position.

Sorry Rory I disagree. Wallace is not more of a 7 than O'Brien. O'Brien's support lines are better and he's a better offloader. Wallace carries the ball with one arm and very rarely offloads. Wallace is a great player but never has been a stereotypical 7. He plays his own unique game and that is what O'Brien does in the role.

Having a Warburton type 7 who is first to the breakdown is not that big an issue for Ireland because we have so many players who are very strong at getting over the ball and winning it on the deck e.g. Best, Heaslip, BOD, D'arcy, POC, DOC and Healy and also extremely aggressive countteruckers like Ferris, POC, O'Brien etc. Like I said before we are one of the best sides in the World in this area.

One area were maybe we do struggle is in support play and offloading out of the tackle and perhaps a Jennings or McCaw type player would help but in terms of competing at the breakdown I do not believe we have a problem and O'Brien, Ferris and Heaslip is still our strongest possible back row combination.

Hopefully Wallace will return and POM will add depth at 7/8 but backrow is still our strongest area for me.

"I do not believe we have a problem and O'Brien, Ferris and Heaslip is still our strongest possible back row combination"

Only if a certain Mr Heaslip would stop admiring himself and start playing to the best of his capabilities.

Agreed DOD, Heaslip has been below par for most of this season.

Thats why its good to see someone like POM really step up to the plate. He looks like another one of those guys who can play across the backrow so should put pressure on the others and would be a great option on the bench.

On a related note just see Robbie Diack stating that he is keen to play for Ireland 'A's.

Robbie Diack?? We don't need him. Can't say I want him or any project players playing for Ireland either.

All jokes aside in 2 years we could have Strauss, Ah You, Sykes and Diack in our pack. That would be a disgrace to international rugby.

Disagree stag. If those guys are fully committed to living in and playing for Ireland then I have no problem with them playing for us.

A thundering disgrace I would say RS...

But I do agree its not a way forward for us...

Rodders I couldnt give a fiddlers whether they want to play for Ireland or not they aren't Irish, they have no family ties and they landed in here in their 20s as they weren't able to cut it in their own country.

THere will be genuine cases of players who want to settle down here forver who will be denied. I see that as necessary but unfortunate.

Whats to stop Japan or Russia buying loads of underage/uncapped young talent and having a fantastic team in a few seasons.

IRB badly needs to tighten up this area. Make it 7 years residency and I won't grumble.

Stag I don't want to get into a whole debate about. I'm pretty middle of the road about it. I don't want to see mercenaries playing for our teams but for me if some overseas players integrate into our way of life and feel passionately about our provinces and country and are elligable under the IRB rules and good enough then I think we should pick them.

Rodders I want the same thing. No Mercenaries. If someone wants to turly be a part of Ireland I'm fine with it.

No well of telling at the minute. If its a 7 years I'm satisifed they want to commit.

red_stag wrote:Rodders I want the same thing. No Mercenaries. If someone wants to turly be a part of Ireland I'm fine with it.

No well of telling at the minute. If its a 7 years I'm satisifed they want to commit.

Anyone living here for 5 years are entitled to citizenship, or if they marry an Irish citizen, 3 years. Both of those I'd be happy with. Basically, anyone who is eligible and becomes an Irish citizen is the only way I would want it to happen. Don't know how it would work in Ulster/NI though as I don't think being resident in NI for 5 years would entitle anyone to Irish citizenship. I suppose they could just leave out being officially able to take out Irish citizenship to just being resident in NI for 5 years.

I could make my peace with 5 years