Fever in the Aviva II – this time, it’s provincial

First topic message reminder :

Leinster v Munster on Friday night. Should be a cracker, all internationals will be back with both teams and we’ll both be going hammer and tongs at it to get up to speed for the HC the following week.

Let the banter begin.

Turnips….

Thread update. Teams announced:

Leinster also name team

15: Rob Kearney
14: Isa Nacewa
13: Fergus McFadden
12: Gordon D'Arcy
11: Luke Fitzgerald
10: Jonathan Sexton
9: Isaac Boss

1: Cian Healy
2: Richardt Strauss
3: Mike Ross
4: Leo Cullen CAPTAIN
5: Devin Toner
6: Sean O'Brien
7: Shane Jennings
8: Jamie Heaslip

REPLACEMENTS:

16: Sean Cronin
17: Heinke van der Merwe
18: Jamie Hagan
19: Kevin McLaughlin
20: Rhys Ruddock
21: Eoin Reddan
22: Ian Madigan
23: Eoin O'Malley


Munster:

Wian du Preez, Damien Varley, BJ Botha

Donnacha O'Callaghan, Paul O'Connell

Donnacha Ryan, Denis Leamy, Niall Ronan

Conor Murray, Ronan O'Gara

Lifeimi Mafi, Will Chambers

Keith Earls, Johne Murphy, Doug Howlett

Bench: Denis Fogarty, Marcus Horan, John Hayes, Peter O'Mahony, James Coughlan, Tomas O'Leary, Ian Keatley, Danny Barnes

In principal 5-7 years makes sense to prove they are committed. However in practice a rugby career at the top level usually lasts between 8-10 seasons, of which maybe 3-4 the player is at their physical prime.

By the time anyone qualifies for us they'll be over the hill anyway.

If your good enough your old enough. Move at 23, five years makes you 28

So the IRFU should invest in a player for 5 seasons in the hope of getting 1 or 2 seasons out of them at the end of their career?

Sorry Stag but that is unworkable IMO. 28 is too late to make an international debut bar the odd exception.

Unless the project player is no older than 20- 21 there is no point.

No Rodders the whole point is that there is no project player system. There should certainly not be buying players for international teams.

It should be at least 5 years and then if someone qualifies they may get chosen. As you say it is a poor investment which is the main thing, it discourages mercenaries but allows a committed player to represent adopted country.

roddersm wrote:So the IRFU should invest in a player for 5 seasons in the hope of getting 1 or 2 seasons out of them at the end of their career?

But that's the whole point the irfu shouldn't be investing in foreign players. If they come here to play for the provinces and eventually qualify and feel strongly enough playing for Ireland then fair enough, but we shouldn't be scouting people from other countries who are only playing for us because they cant get in their own countries team.

I don't know stag, I don't see the rules changing. It's an IRB thing and has nothing to do with citizenship.

We can't afford to take a parochial and niave view about this. If a player qualifies by whatever means then they should be considered for selection.

IMO an overseas player who is playing in Ireland and giving their all for their province is contibuting more to Irish rugby than an Irish player plying their trade abroad.

Is Andy Ward less Irish than Alan Quinlan? Ethnically and genitically maybe yes, but in a rugby sense, no I don't believe he is.

Exaclty Golden. The whole point of international rugby is that you dont buy players. You play using the cards your given.

No I don't think you are looking at it the right way. The IRFU is not buying players to play for Ireland. They are allowing the provinces to buy an additional overseas player each, to meet their own needs, on the basis that should they remain in Ireland, and if they wish to, they will become illegible to play for Ireland.

It is a compromise solution which helps the provinces remain competitive whilst not reducing our player pool as much as just signing overseas players who are not able to qualify.

If they didn't have this project player scheme and just had another NIQ place then borlase, sykes and diak would never have come to ireland. better players would have been bought in their place (not saying they should have another NIQ spot instead).

So the only reason their here is that one day they are elegible to play for us. so the irfu are employing them on the basis of playing for ireland.

I think it makes a mockery of the international game and I think it will be a dark day for international rugby if the likes of Strauss start pulling on a green shirt.

Why stag? Foreign players have played for Ireland in the past.

When Pocock plays for Australia or Tuilagi plays for England does that make a mockery of the international game?

If Strauss is committed to living in Ireland, why shouldn't he be selected?

"Foreign players have played for Ireland in the past. "

Examples please...

If these players weren't offered contracts by the irfu would they consider themselves Irish in any way?

DOD wrote:"Foreign players have played for Ireland in the past. "

Examples please...

Andy Ward. I'm sure there have been others.

Golden wrote:If these players weren't offered contracts by the irfu would they consider themselves Irish in any way?

Who says they do consider themselves Irish? They are electing to play for an Irish province on the stipulation that they won't play for another for country for the duration of their contract. After that they are free to do what they want. If they chose to remain in Ireland beyond the three years and if they are given the option of playing for Ireland then it is up to them to judge if they consider themselves 'Irish'.

If a player pulls on an Irish jersey with pride and puts his body on line and gives 110% then he is Irish, regardless of his passport, accent or colour of his skin and it is a very outdated and predjudice view to suggest he isn't IMO.

I suppose but I cant see players like Strauss settling here for life, marrying a local and becoming one of the locals.

The only other player with that commitment that I can think of at the moment is Mafi in Munster.

It opens the door to the tourist/mercenary player at an international level. Dont like it myself and agree with RS on this one.

Are any of the young Munster props injured because the front row line up doesnt read well imo.

Rodders,

Tuilagi and Pocock have been playing kiddies rugby in England and OZ when they were 13 and 14 respectively.

There is a massive difference between a professional player moving to Ireland in his mid twenties and after three seasons is representing Ireland on the world stage.

I think that while a player may feel truly committed to their adopted nation I would say its the exception rather than the rule. Im not against residency, I'm against three years of residency which makes it a good option for a union to buy players. Whether or not thats what IRFU are doing it is a real possibility under the current system. It also is such a small lenght of time - I don't believe the likes of Strauss are committed to Ireland personally. I've no doubt that he'll be back home when he'd made his money here.

However when a player is here at least five years then yes he has made a big committment - almost half a playing career and it makes it less attractive for unions to buy players.

Standulstermen wrote:Are any of the young Munster props injured because the front row line up doesnt read well imo.

Yes Darragh Hurley is injured at loosehead. Don't know why Archer isn't there. Our "project player" Borlase is also injured.

would have hoped to see Archer in there then Stag. Essentially 4 NIQ's in the squad

red_stag wrote:
I think that while a player may feel truly committed to their adopted nation I would say its the exception rather than the rule.

Based on what stag? Do you think Strauss would play with less commitment for Ireland than he would SA? Would he be less committed than Rory Best?

If so don't pick him, but who are we to judge? Why should Cronin or A.N. Other be selected if Strauss is better and IQ?

munster lads. this o mahony fella sounds like a bit of craic and a good player to boot. only seen him in a few rabo direct games. hopefully he gets a run off the bench tonight. from what some of you are saying its nuts that he is on the bench in the first place .love to see lads absolutely bulling and spitting fire after a defeat. From an Ireland prospective i think some competition at 8 would be good but can also see the merits of him playing 7

heaslip has not been the same since he started wearing the scrumcap albeit his form was not great pre concussion. hopefully he gets back to his best.

Based on the fact I think that it is too short a lenght of time for anyone to land into a country with no family ties and feel truly committed.

He'll play to win and won't want to lose - thats his job.

As I've said on several occasions I have zero problem with residency. However the current system is apallingly naiive and IMO brings international level down to club level where you can buy anyone you like once they haven't played for the senior international sides.

Ireland could decide tomorrow that we like that lad Ford who starred in the U20 World Cup for England and say to him. We'll buy you and we'll have a contact with you that you'll be in 2015 RWC.

dublin_dave wrote:munster lads. this o mahony fella sounds like a bit of craic and a good player to boot. only seen him in a few rabo direct games. hopefully he gets a run off the bench tonight. from what some of you are saying its nuts that he is on the bench in the first place .love to see lads absolutely bulling and spitting fire after a defeat. From an Ireland prospective i think some competition at 8 would be good but can also see the merits of him playing 7

heaslip has not been the same since he started wearing the scrumcap albeit his form was not great pre concussion. hopefully he gets back to his best.

Good points Dave

why not dod (re strauss settling here)

he is playing for one of the top sides in europe and is behind smit,du plessis and brits in SA pecking order so he may well see his future here. Dont know the fella personally but it could be in the best interest of his career to stay here.

Stag, underage players have to be living in the country with their parents, hence the reason why Artimev played against Ireland not with them at the RWC this year despite his years of schooling in Blackrock and being selected for underage squads.

Each individual Union has the right to set its residency rules. If the IRFU adopted the legislative criteria for naturalisation as a citizen, then I think we'd all agree that would be fair enough. But as far as I am aware, that process only starts at 18 when outside of the education system. Studying visas etc do not count toward that total. That would mean that some guys mightnt be eligable until they are 27+. A bit late for starting an international career!

This POM chap sounds like he has a bit of mongrel about him. Thats the sign of a potential top player for me. If he gets on I want to see him try and take O'Briens head off (not literally).

This match and to a lesser extent the Ulster - Connaght game will be a good indicator of where Irish rugby is at this season, whether the moral has been dampened after the RWC, or whether there is still a real fire in the bellies of the senior guys.

Hopefully there'll be real fireworks in these games to blow away the RWC cobwebs.

Debaters Im not looking for anything that complicated like citizenship or anything. Just the same systemi we have now but longer.

Individual unions can set its own residency but IRB sets the worldwide minimum.

Dave - I think you make my point well. "it could be in the best interest of his career to stay". If thats his mentality he should never play for Ireland. The best interest of his career!!!

I heard Strauss has "issues" with the SA setup and would not play for them, despite family members playing for them. Don't know the details.

Personally I am in 2 minds on the 3 year rule.

But the grandparent one can be worse.

Look at Waldrom. "Discovers" a granny who was born in England and he does not even have to do the 3 years.

At least after 3 years you can make an informed decision as to whether you feel a bond with your adopted country.

While the rule stands, I think we should play by it.

The "project" player thing is a bit iffy though. Getting the cart before the horse.

RE POM - was hoping he would make the breakthrough last year. Keep an eye on him..he will be an Ireland captain one day. A lot like P Matthews in terms of hardness and willingness to put his body/head where others wouldnt (plus he is a good ball player).

Worrying aspects are he seems to get injured a lot (see last point)...

You should only be allowed play for Ireland if a relative fought in the GPO.

Feckless in that case I bet we could round up a few English lads who probably had relatives fighting in the GPO - just on the other side.

Help!!

anyone know a uk accessible internet feed? Doesnt seem to be on any of the sky channels...

You've got mail.

Anyone who needs a link, I will try send one on.

Hour and a half or so left in work then

Pints
bantz
match
celebrate
pints

sleep

match tommorrow.

does not bode well for my performance tommorrow afternoon

D24tress wrote:Hour and a half or so left in work then

Pints
bantz
match
celebrate
pints

sleep

match tommorrow.

does not bode well for my performance tommorrow afternoon

D24tress - clearly a rip-off of my post on the Irish Derbies link;
Re: Irish Derbies - prediction time
by HURLEY_BURLEY Today at 3:23 pm

.Jonny Sexton MOM - you heard it here first.
1.5 hrs til out of work. Bellamys (pint), Embassy Grill (burger), Bellamys (couple more pints) Lansdowne Rd (Leinster 21 Boggers 9) Bellamys (more celebratory pints) Home beddy sleepy.
Whoo !!.

Great minds think alike!!

HURLEY_BURLEY wrote: (Leinster 21 Boggers 9)

Ah give us the bonus point yih scabby bollix!

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

HURLEY_BURLEY wrote: (Leinster 21 Boggers 9)

Ah give us the bonus point yih scabby bollix!

Its ok, we get the bonus point.
The 21 points is 4 tries, and then leinster are awarded 1 extra point for artistic merit when SOB tramples ROG into the hallowed Lansdowne turf.
Based on the wise Munster posters here, I am assuming Sexton will miss all kicks at goal. 4 fresh airs in fact.

Thomond wrote:You've got mail.

thanks thomond

No bother. Munster 3-0 up.

Thomond can I borrow a link?! desperate here, i'll give it straight back I promise!

Cheers Thomond - great link!

3 all.

Can someone please send me a link?! going hysterical here! tykestv isnt showing the game and i have nowhere else to go, i feel like henson

Dubs - you got mail.

Sorry Dubs was offline for a few minutes, I sent Cari the link so you should be sorted now.

ooh fisticuffs!

6 all now after a ROG penalty.

Mon Leinster. Sexton doesn't miss for Leinster.

Can someone please send me a link? im lookin for now with 40 mins and no luck ;(

munster-abu wrote:Can someone please send me a link? im lookin for now with 40 mins and no luck ;(

type twomintpork1 into google