Fever in the Aviva II – this time, it’s provincial

First topic message reminder :

Leinster v Munster on Friday night. Should be a cracker, all internationals will be back with both teams and we’ll both be going hammer and tongs at it to get up to speed for the HC the following week.

Let the banter begin.

Turnips….

Thread update. Teams announced:

Leinster also name team

15: Rob Kearney
14: Isa Nacewa
13: Fergus McFadden
12: Gordon D'Arcy
11: Luke Fitzgerald
10: Jonathan Sexton
9: Isaac Boss

1: Cian Healy
2: Richardt Strauss
3: Mike Ross
4: Leo Cullen CAPTAIN
5: Devin Toner
6: Sean O'Brien
7: Shane Jennings
8: Jamie Heaslip

REPLACEMENTS:

16: Sean Cronin
17: Heinke van der Merwe
18: Jamie Hagan
19: Kevin McLaughlin
20: Rhys Ruddock
21: Eoin Reddan
22: Ian Madigan
23: Eoin O'Malley


Munster:

Wian du Preez, Damien Varley, BJ Botha

Donnacha O'Callaghan, Paul O'Connell

Donnacha Ryan, Denis Leamy, Niall Ronan

Conor Murray, Ronan O'Gara

Lifeimi Mafi, Will Chambers

Keith Earls, Johne Murphy, Doug Howlett

Bench: Denis Fogarty, Marcus Horan, John Hayes, Peter O'Mahony, James Coughlan, Tomas O'Leary, Ian Keatley, Danny Barnes

DOD wrote:
Has Captained every team he has played in and will eventually captain Munster (although some say its to stop him doing stupid things and getting sent off )

I remember reading an interview with PoC a few years ago where he mentioned he had discipline problems as a young player coming through.The interviewer mentioned that it is almost a necessity at the top level to have that sort of aggression,I suppose it's just all about learning to control it.

True...was at the game against Dragons and basically MickO'D was telling him what to do, when to ask the ref and when to shut up.

roddersm wrote:OK Rory I didn't realise Henry was that big. He's clearly bigger than he was last season. I think there is a difference between functional muscle and bulk though so I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the players actual weight.

Ferris and O'Brien are obviously freakishly strong and powerful and Wallace too to a slightly lesser extent with his amazing lower body strength and leg drive. I don't think we have many guys of this ilk and possibly POM could turn out to be another?

Yeah I was surprised of his size also. However look at Diack! 115kg and he couldn't make the same impact Ferris does in contact! Strength>Size every time.

POM as previously mentioned is 6"3 and 105kg. The same size as Harinordoquy and Read, 2 of the best 8s in the game. POM has been compared to Harinordoquy a few times on this forum already. Cork Con is obviously not the same league as Munster, where POM has shone so far (IMO) at 8, the match he won a MOM award and where I was truly impressed. He also played 8 in the U20s tournament I remember.

The main asset I have noticed from POM is his aggression going into contact. He is so aggressive, a big ball carrier and wrecks havoc in all areas around the pitch. Stag, you mention there is a spot open at 7 for Ireland. Will POM replace O'Brien? Wallace if he returns? Or Heaslip, the current weak link of the backrow? I think where he should slot in is obvious.

SOB is a better 8 than Heaslip..he showed that for Leinster last year. He is a 6/8 rather than a 7.

I don't agree that SOB is a better 8 than 6/7. Or that he is a better 8 than Heaslip. Nor do I see Heaslip getting replaced at Leinster. For Ireland however, POM will challenge him for the 8 shirt.

SOB is a fantastic all around flanker and can play all positions excellently. His best game for Ireland was definitely against Australia, and he was a 7 in that match.

What is O'Mahoney like in the lineout,thats the one area where SoB is relatively weak and Ireland would struggle without 2 backrows who can be lifted.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:What is O'Mahoney like in the lineout,thats the one area where SoB is relatively weak and Ireland would struggle without 2 backrows who can be lifted.

It is another skill for POM that hasn't been mentioned too often - he is actually very good in the line-out.

Good to hear,we're looking stronger in the backrow every year.

O'Brien is a 6. That's the position where he can play to his strengths more often. We happened to have another world class 6, Ferris, and not many options at 7 after Wallace's injury. That's the only reason O'Brien played 7. He can play well at 6, 7 or 8. But 6 is definitely his best position. He's said himself that 6 is his best position, although he is happy to play anywhere.

"SOB is a fantastic all around flanker and can play all positions excellently. His best game for Ireland was definitely against Australia, and he was a 7 in that match."

One swallow does not a summer make.

I disagree, when Leinter were poor at the beginning of last year it was SOB playing at 8 who lead the way. POM is a 7 its his best position why try to change it and as RS said we do have an opening there.

Yet his best position for Ireland was against Australia, where Ferris and O'Brien were wrecking balls at flanker. Against Wales, it was 2 world class flankers against 3 world class back rowers - Heaslip was a weak link and that is why they were shut down.

Who says 7 is his best position? Because you seen him play there for Cork Con? If you go by statistics, his best game has been at 8 where he won a MOM game. He also played 8 for the U20s. Both are levels above Cork.. We don't know his best position though to me it looks to be at 8.

Also there isn't an opening at 7. O'Brien is playing there.

Rory you have to play well provincially first. He isn't a starter for Munster - there is an opening at 7 for Munster. If he plays well he'll get a shot internationally. And if he is playing well at 7 for Munster why move him about.

You say now that we don;t know his best position and yet you are adamant its silly to play him anywhere other than number 8. We are merely saying that we don;t know his position and we should play him where we have an opening.

red_stag wrote:Rory you have to play well provincially first. He isn't a starter for Munster - there is an opening at 7 for Munster. If he plays well he'll get a shot internationally. And if he is playing well at 7 for Munster why move him about.

You say now that we don;t know his best position and yet you are adamant its silly to play him anywhere other than number 8. We are merely saying that we don;t know his position and we should play him where we have an opening.

Please quote me where I said it is silly to play him anywhere than 8. I have said 8 will be his best position, as he is best suited to it. DOD is the one who is saying we should only play him at 7 as it is his position. In what way is he suited to playing 7? He does not play like a McCaw, Pocock, Warburton etc. He shouldn't try and play like them either, he is fantastic in other areas of his game. Also you say he is to play well provincially first. Captaining munster during the world cup and a MOM award at 8 is a good start.

There is an opening at 7 because of the injury to Wallace. When Wallace returns, POM will play either 8 or 6 at the expense of Leamy or Coughlan. I would play:

6) Leamy
7) Wallace
8) O'Mahoney

19) Coughlan

That is a very good backrow, and if I was a munster supporter I would be very happy with that tbh.

Like I said Rory he can and has played across all three positions in the backrow. He is that versatile.

However he has played 7 most of his senior career and has excelled as a 7. He links well with the backs is a good ball player as well as being destructive at the breakdown and is also a very good poacher..

Maybe 8 will be his final position but at the moment if it looks like a duck...etc

Also for the Munster backrow...

6 Leamy
7 POM
8 Coughlan

Would be most people preference. Coughlan is our best No.8 and would play him over Leamy anyday. Leamy is a better 6 anyhow.

So if Wallace returns you would omit him? He was your best backrower last season by a fair bit, and played fantastic in the magners league final. Was playing some of the best rugby of his career.

His senior career has mostly consisted of him playing 6 or 8, he has played one game for munster at 7, DOD. He captained the U20s at 8 at the JWC a few years back, and has played 6/8 mostly for Munster. Cork is not the same, as I have said.

Destructive at the breakdown? He is not that sort of player from what I have seen.. He is an aggressive ball carrying monster. He is aggressive in the tackle area and the breakdown. He is not a smart breakdown player who can slow the opposition ball like the players I mentioned above. The fact he links well with the backs is another necessity for an 8 more than a 7.

I will also add that we probably won't convince one another here so we will have to agree to disagree and conclude that he will be featuring for Ireland somewhere in the not too distant future

In fact Rory he will be Captain of Ireland. No matter where he plays. Its written in the stars...

O'mahony hasnt even played a heineken cup game, he hasnt been the best player on the pitch in a rabo game even and yet people are talking about him maybe overtaking two players that have been at one stage been talked about as the best in the world at there position.

i'm sure he will be good, he's aggressive which is great, let him get a heineken cup under his belt then bring him down under with the dirt trackers and then we can talk about him playing for ireland proper.

D24tress wrote:O'mahony hasnt even played a heineken cup game, he hasnt been the best player on the pitch in a rabo game even and yet people are talking about him maybe overtaking two players that have been at one stage been talked about as the best in the world at there position.

i'm sure he will be good, he's aggressive which is great, let him get a heineken cup under his belt then bring him down under with the dirt trackers and then we can talk about him playing for ireland proper.

Actually, he has been as he won MOM against Ospreys (I think) at 8 He was definitely the best player on the pitch in that game. He has shone every game he has played so far.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

D24tress wrote:O'mahony hasnt even played a heineken cup game, he hasnt been the best player on the pitch in a rabo game even and yet people are talking about him maybe overtaking two players that have been at one stage been talked about as the best in the world at there position.

i'm sure he will be good, he's aggressive which is great, let him get a heineken cup under his belt then bring him down under with the dirt trackers and then we can talk about him playing for ireland proper.

Actually, he has been as he won MOM against Ospreys (I think) at 8 He was definitely the best player on the pitch in that game. He has shone every game he has played so far.

I will be disappointed if he doesnt make the 6ns squad at least this year. I was disappointed McGahan didnt give him more time last year (we needed a player like him).

SOB is neither a 6, 7 or 8. Like Wallace he has some but not all of the attributes of all 3 backrow positions.

He might prefer 6 but I don't agree that he is significantly more effective there and has been motm in all 3 positions. People read too much into the HEC final. Jennings obviously made an impact but the fact that O'Brien switched flanks wasn't that big of an issue.

How effective O'Brien is depends on how much front foot ball his team can get him not the number on his back.

For those who think he can't win ball on the deck, the best steal of the match last weekend was by O'Brien and this isn't the 1st time either.

Likewise if Heaslip doesn't find his form O'Brien could easily take his 8 shirt.

So Rodders, would you say the “Feek tweek” had as much to do with us winning that final as Jennings coming on?

I tend to agree with you though, it doesn’t really matter where he plays, it’s all to do with what’s going on in front of him.

Nah the Saints just got tired, they had a tough old season you know.....

roddersm wrote:Nah the Saints just got tired, they had a tough old season you know.....

fair point Jim!

Just reading an article by Bernard Jackman there about BOD's injury. Apprenetly they measured the Gforces his body is under during a game, and he hit 13G at one stage... That's the equivelant of a car crash...

Interesting Mickado. Its a brutal game these days.
BOD has to have taken, and given, more big hits than nearly any other player since the game went pro.
Particularly given that he is not a 20 stone bruiser, and is in fact only a wee little back.

roddersm wrote:SOB is neither a 6, 7 or 8. Like Wallace he has some but not all of the attributes of all 3 backrow positions.

He might prefer 6 but I don't agree that he is significantly more effective there and has been motm in all 3 positions. People read too much into the HEC final. Jennings obviously made an impact but the fact that O'Brien switched flanks wasn't that big of an issue.

How effective O'Brien is depends on how much front foot ball his team can get him not the number on his back.

For those who think he can't win ball on the deck, the best steal of the match last weekend was by O'Brien and this isn't the 1st time either.

Likewise if Heaslip doesn't find his form O'Brien could easily take his 8 shirt.

Agreed, though I think 8 is a more specialist position than either flanker positions and though O'Brien can do a job there he would never be a world class 8. At 6 or 7 he is world class though. Many people selected him at 7 for their team of the RWC. Heaslip either needs to find form or be replaced in Leinster by Ruddock, and in Ireland by POM.

I used to think a proper 7 was needed until you and others pointed out they are not needed. 7 is not a specialist position as many people think, Munster have had one of the best backrows with Quinlan and Wallace and Ireland are doing that now with Ferris and O'Brien.

It's coming back to me now, I read about that before. I think it was the hit on Zane Kirchner at the end of the SA game in 09, he was concussed at the time. Unreal.

The best part of the article was Jackman saying that this type of surgery has a high success rate and he fully expects BOD to be back and fit enough to play next summer.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
I used to think a proper 7 was needed until you and others pointed out they are not needed. 7 is not a specialist position as many people think, Munster have had one of the best backrows with Quinlan and Wallace and Ireland are doing that now with Ferris and O'Brien.

I don't think its a case of not needing one but how much you need a specialist 7 depends on how you play and the dynamics of the rest of the side. The bottom line is we don't have a world class specialist 7,and haven't for some time, but we do have other world class guys like O'Brien and Wallace who can play there. If Ritchie McCaw or Pocock were Irish I might think differently but personally I want Ferris and O'Brien in my starting XV and to do this O'Brien needs to play 7 or 8 and I'm more than confident he can do either.

But thats just like my oppinion man .

I think with flanker in general you can have one poacher and one carrier, whether they wear 6 or 7 on their backs. Flanker isn't a specialist position, finding the right combination is important though. Similar to inside and outside centre. Generally you have a playmaker and the strike runner.

Look. How long does it take ye goys to realise the Truth?
4 x RWC Semi-Finalists. All 4 with out-and-out 7's in their XV.

Winners of 2 out of the last 3 HC's. They had one too.

Please keep up and/or smell the dork-orts coffee.

They still cant see it. Bless em

France had no out and out 7, as many people told me.. Dusautoir, Harinordoquy and Bonnaire still outplayed the NZ back row however in the final. SA won the world cup in 2007 with no out and out 7. I don't think "out and out 7s" mean anything honestly. I have changed my stance on it all.

What about Munster with Quinlan and Wallace at 6 and 7? I don't think it matters which is the poaching destructive flanker. As long as they and the rest of the pack work as one unit.

Dussatoir was the go to man for France.

As for Munster? They are dead and buried at HC level - along with their style of play. That is why they are in the sheet they are in.

Kidney was their ex-coach in a 10-man rugby era. He left them with an aging, anti-rugby - team. Cant anyone else see what is happening here?

Look at Ireland.

Gibbo I think Munster have the team to play sexy rugby. Maybe a change of attitude is needed. Leinster played and won with grunge. Maybe we can try throwing the pill about more.

Possible Team:

01 Darragh Hurley
02 Mike Sherry
03 BJ Botha
04 Donnacha Ryan
05 Paul O'Connell
06 Peter O'Mahony
07 David Wallace
08 James Coughlan
09 Conor Murray
10 Ian Keatley
11 Simon Zebo
12 Keith Earls
13 Danny Barnes
14 Doug Howlett
15 Felix Jones

16 Jerry Flannery
17 Stephen Archer
18 Donnacha O'Callaghan
19 Denis Leamy
20 Tomas O'Leary
21 Ronan O'Gara
22 Lifeimi Mafi

#howcanwelose

The problem with ireland is/was dk relying on an ageing not fully fit leinster midfield, who obviously werent truthful about their level of fitness..

DOD wrote:The problem with ireland is/was dk relying on an ageing not fully fit leinster midfield, who obviously werent truthful about their level of fitness..

+1

Sorry, I should have said the "old" Munster. They are not as good anymore but back when they dominated teams with their pack, they never had a proper openside. They had a master of disrupting and slowing down play (Quinlan) and a fantastic ball carrying support player (Wallace). It worked! For Ireland we have something similar with Ferris (defensive player) and O'Brien (offensive player). At 8 someone dynamic and explosive and you have a world class back row. Simple.

I think all forwards now should be able to turn over ball, retain possession etc. It isn't just the job of a 7, who can't be everywhere at once. It all depends on the balance of the pack. Against Austrailia, Ferris and O'Brien were a fantastic combination.

As long as yer happy lads. Been listening to that self-serving, self-ingratiating, Irish BS - for 40 years now. Still only made a QF.
He failed.
Next.

red_stag wrote:Gibbo I think Munster have the team to play sexy rugby. Maybe a change of attitude is needed. Leinster played and won with grunge. Maybe we can try throwing the pill about more.

Possible Team:

01 Darragh Hurley
02 Mike Sherry
03 BJ Botha
04 Donnacha Ryan
05 Paul O'Connell
06 Denis Leamy
07 David Wallace
08 Peter O'Mahoney
09 Conor Murray
10 Ian Keatley
11 Simon Zebo
12 Keith Earls
13 Danny Barnes
14 Doug Howlett
15 Felix Jones

16 Jerry Flannery
17 Stephen Archer
18 Donnacha O'Callaghan
19 James Coughlan
20 Tomas O'Leary
21 Ronan O'Gara
22 Lifeimi Mafi

#howcanwelose

I think that looks like a very competitive team for the future. Why Earls at 12 however stag? Also I fixed a few things

RE: Earls at 12 - he's put on a lot of muscle, he actually runs well into contact, if he finds a gap he'll be good to have, our midfield isn;t working and its a change worth making.

He doesn't have the distribution skills or handling for 12 though.. the 2 things you want most from your 12. Earls hasn't the best set of hands really.

Earls is not the answer at 13. Kidney will go for it. But, as much as it hurts me to say it, he's not the answer. I thought 2 years ago he was the answer. Don't now. Not smart enough and his defence is weak. Its another Paddy Wallace.

Stick him on the wing/bench. Its where the lad is happiest.

I don't think Earls will be playing for Ireland when Kidney finishes.

Mark it down

Gibson, I think it is almost certain that Earls or McFadden is going to be playing at 13 during the 6 nations.. it should be Spence or Cave (preferably Spence). But I know he will prefer to go with Earls/McFadden. I hope I am wrong.

You (or was it mbtgog) have been suggesting earls at 12 from the beginning. I would try anything at this stage. Also i dont get why zebo isnt even in the squad. Anyone know of a reason..mcgahan seems to not rate him

It was MBTGOG, I felt his position is in the back 3.

Rory.
Have a go at me later. But forget Spence and Cave for the Irish 1st XV. Wont happen.

Yes of course one of our top try scorers shouldnt be playing. I'm sorry but spence and cave are just not good enough yet and McFadden looks like being another jennings (looks good in the mini rugby games but anonymous with the big boys). Barnes will make it before the aforementioned trio. Oh and mr earls has done the business for ireland at fb, wing and centre. Maybe we should try him at oh cos mr sexton is lookingat best as beinga caretaker of the position and not much else

DOD wrote:You (or was it mbtgog) have been suggesting earls at 12 from the beginning. I would try anything at this stage. Also i dont get why zebo isnt even in the squad. Anyone know of a reason..mcgahan seems to not rate him

Too inexperienced to face Ashton. They'd target him. Better off getting a game in B+I cup.

Love you Decco. X.

Geen sport voor watjes jonge

Gibson wrote:Rory.
Have a go at me later. But forget Spence and Cave for the Irish 1st XV. Wont happen.

Do you not feel they are good enough?