Fever in the Aviva II – this time, it’s provincial

First topic message reminder :

Leinster v Munster on Friday night. Should be a cracker, all internationals will be back with both teams and we’ll both be going hammer and tongs at it to get up to speed for the HC the following week.

Let the banter begin.

Turnips….

Thread update. Teams announced:

Leinster also name team

15: Rob Kearney
14: Isa Nacewa
13: Fergus McFadden
12: Gordon D'Arcy
11: Luke Fitzgerald
10: Jonathan Sexton
9: Isaac Boss

1: Cian Healy
2: Richardt Strauss
3: Mike Ross
4: Leo Cullen CAPTAIN
5: Devin Toner
6: Sean O'Brien
7: Shane Jennings
8: Jamie Heaslip

REPLACEMENTS:

16: Sean Cronin
17: Heinke van der Merwe
18: Jamie Hagan
19: Kevin McLaughlin
20: Rhys Ruddock
21: Eoin Reddan
22: Ian Madigan
23: Eoin O'Malley


Munster:

Wian du Preez, Damien Varley, BJ Botha

Donnacha O'Callaghan, Paul O'Connell

Donnacha Ryan, Denis Leamy, Niall Ronan

Conor Murray, Ronan O'Gara

Lifeimi Mafi, Will Chambers

Keith Earls, Johne Murphy, Doug Howlett

Bench: Denis Fogarty, Marcus Horan, John Hayes, Peter O'Mahony, James Coughlan, Tomas O'Leary, Ian Keatley, Danny Barnes

Rodders..that comment wasnt directed at you. The best player is the best player regardless of age be it 18 or early 30's.

red_stag wrote:Rodders I would say the point has been strongly suggested that 26 upwards is on the decline for backs but forwards mature later.

No what I said was 24-28, give or take is a players athletic prime. It is very possible that a player will play their best stuff outside of this but generally in terms of pace and athleticism this is as good as it gets.

That does not mean a player, even an outside back, cannot break through at 30, however if they break through at 23 there is a good chance they will improve and sustain that level for a good few seasons whereas if they break through at 29 they are likely to start to decline pretty soon and certainly unlikely to improve very much, at least not physically.

McFadden is not a big guy and relies a fair bit on his pace and step. Once that starts to decline then he won't be as potent. I can't see him causing defences too much trouble at 31 to be honest.

DOD wrote:Rodders..that comment wasnt directed at you. The best player is the best player regardless of age be it 18 or early 30's.

+1 and I think too many people just want a team of complete U25s nowadays. I read so many comments about building for the World Cup, blooding players, squad development etc. Lets just focus on winning our games for now.

Stag I still think you are missing the point. No one is looking for a team of U-25's. However it is naive to think that a player is just suddenly going to step up to the plate at international level at 28 after years of benchwarming for their province.

Stag, sorry but you really are missing the point on this thread as well as the other one. Where is the suggestion that people want a team of U25s?? You are making things up.

Nobody here has ever said they want a team of under 25's. What are you on about stag?

I want pace in our backline.

What Stag is saying is that we should be picking the best players that are currently available. There is a natural progression in Ireland and it has worked for 99% of the time. That is as follows..

Club - Academy - Province A - Pro12 - HC - Ireland A - Ireland

If McFadden is the best player to play centre for Ireland then he should be picked. To me he is going to get a clearer chance in the next 6 months than he has ever had and was a member of the WC squad.

Suggestion seems to be to play others now so they will develop because they have some form at a lower level. The next level is now the HC its starting this weekend. I still expect McFadden to be in the prime position for the 6ns after the weekend.

Dennis Hickie and Girvan Dempsey are two examples of outside backs who played their best stuff late in their careers. No one is saying it doesn't happen. It is not something you bank on though and it's not good to have players who are pushing 26 and not 1st choice and only playing in dribs and drabs.

No one is writing anyone off but I do believe this is make or break for McFadden this season.

Surely natural progression is for Darcy to move to 13 and Paddy Wallace to take the 12 jersey with McFadden on the bench.




I'll get my coat

His low center of gravity will help him dominate all opposition this year.

My point is that on multiple threads people seem to pick their teams based on players ages. This in some cases involves mass changes, lots of bolters. I've seen calls for the likes of Dominic Ryan, Nevin Spence, Dan Tuohy, Jamie Hagan, Darren Cave, Craig Gilroy to be starting for Ireland this season on the basis that they are the future.

That is my only problem. I've seen people refer to Tommy Bowe as being "getting on a bit" at 27 years old. I've seen people call for Keatley to replace O'Gara on the Irish bench as O'Gara won't be around for 2015 RWC.

All I want right now is Ireland to win the Six Nations, then I want us to beat New Zealand in the Summer, then I want us to win another Six Nations and not until after the Lions tour do I want our coaches to make decisions with the RWC in mind.

I think if McFadden doesn't nail his position down soon, and if he doesn't improve then another player is going to come and overtake him. That is fair enough.

Feckless Rogue wrote:His low center of gravity will help him dominate all opposition this year.

red_stag wrote:My point is that on multiple threads people seem to pick their teams based on players ages. This in some cases involves mass changes, lots of bolters. I've seen calls for the likes of Dominic Ryan, Nevin Spence, Dan Tuohy, Jamie Hagan, Darren Cave, Craig Gilroy to be starting for Ireland this season on the basis that they are the future.

That is my only problem. I've seen people refer to Tommy Bowe as being "getting on a bit" at 27 years old. I've seen people call for Keatley to replace O'Gara on the Irish bench as O'Gara won't be around for 2015 RWC.

All I want right now is Ireland to win the Six Nations, then I want us to beat New Zealand in the Summer, then I want us to win another Six Nations and not until after the Lions tour do I want our coaches to make decisions with the RWC in mind.

You are completely just twisting things to make your point now Stag, by referring to what I said about Bowe in another thread that in a year when he is 28 he will possibly be on the decline and a younger winger (my choice was Gilroy) may overtake him. I explained this in the other thread for you and I am certain you seen it. It isn't to do with age. I want Keatley to replace O'Gara soon because I think Keatley is an exciting prospect and is better than ROG. Simple as that.

Nobody is talking about age except you. People have suggested exciting prospects to replace players on the starting team and challenge for the shirt. Do you really want the team to remain the same for 4 years? I am sure you want players to be challenging for their chance to replace the likes of BOD, D'Arcy, Bowe etc. Having young players pushing for a spot on the team is GOOD. Why do you think that people saying that means they want a team of U25s?

Yeah stag I think you are throwing a few different points together. I am making a specific point about McFadden (and others in the same boat) who, has some potential but moving into his peak years still isn't showing it enough.

Bowe past it at 27( !) is rediculous and there are some players in the list above who could and should be in Ireland contention on merit and some who shouldn't but those are seperate points.

I am throwing different points together as I think that its something I've seen over the last few weeks.

BTW on McFadden I've personally never rated him. I've never understood the hype. I prefer Luke Marshal of Ulster or JJ Hanrahan of Munster as long term prospects at 12.

Except, the young Irish up&coming centres have had two B&I Lions in front of them - not the easiest task to dislodge them?

Yes stag but they are separate points that need to be debated seperately the fact that age is a common theme does not mean that age is the only or even central point.

Thing is, do any of these players have the right mentality?

Paul O'Connell in Irish Times yesterday:

“That’s still there, but I think it’s all about the attitude. Young guys coming in are, as I said, they’re big, they’re strong, they’re able to play ball. But what set those guys apart and what set Munster on the run to success was those guys’ mental attitude and their mental strength. If they came across a guy that was better than them, they’d figure a way to beat them. That remains to be seen in the young guys coming through.”

Should these young players be exposed to more AIL rugby than they are. “I don’t know would it give them as it gave us back then. But it’s all mental. Rugby is an emotional game and it’s about mental strength, and the young guys who come through with that will be successful, and the guys who don’t have it won’t be.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/1107/1224307165027.html

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Except, the young Irish up&coming centres have had two B&I Lions in front of them - not the easiest task to dislodge them?

Well, D'Arcy has been crap for a while now so personally I think McFadden should be starting over him. Replacing BOD is a different matter, however. At 13 I think it will be Spence who will become our future 13. At 12, someone from Leinster. Personally I would prefer O'Malley to overtake McFadden in the running for the 12 shirt. I think he looks like a real talent.

Sin é wrote:Thing is, do any of these players have the right mentality?

Paul O'Connell in Irish Times yesterday:

“That’s still there, but I think it’s all about the attitude. Young guys coming in are, as I said, they’re big, they’re strong, they’re able to play ball. But what set those guys apart and what set Munster on the run to success was those guys’ mental attitude and their mental strength. If they came across a guy that was better than them, they’d figure a way to beat them. That remains to be seen in the young guys coming through.”

Should these young players be exposed to more AIL rugby than they are. “I don’t know would it give them as it gave us back then. But it’s all mental. Rugby is an emotional game and it’s about mental strength, and the young guys who come through with that will be successful, and the guys who don’t have it won’t be.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/1107/1224307165027.html

I read that article before sin. I know it is specific to Munster but it is a valid point. I would hope that some of those guys do have the right mentality but inevitably some won't. There's only one way to find out and thats to pick them for big games: HEC, 6N, vs the SH.

Mentality is one of the 1st things I look at when a talented young guy comes through. Thats why Earls, O'Brien, Sexton, Bowe, Healy, Ferris etc. have broke through IMO and others haven't. They have an edge about them, a desire to not settle for second best just like BOD, POC and ROG. I see it again in the likes of Spence and POM. Unfortunately I have doubts about some others like McFadden and Ryan but only time will tell.

Which Ryan do you refer to Rodders?

Rodders, I think he is talking about young players coming through in general. He mentions Sean O'Brien as a player who has come through. What the mentality he is talking about is, just not giving up. He says something like Foley & Quinlan who "would fight over a toothpick on a Monday morning" attitude.

Take for instance Sexton - he has all the skills, but I think because he never won the shirt at Leinster from Contempomi, he finds it extremely difficult to compete with ROG for the Ireland shirt, whereas O'Gara knows how to do it because he had to do it with Munster & Ireland.

Thats not a bad point SinE, when Sexton got the jersey it was down to Contepomi getting injured and leaving Leinster. Could that have a psychological barrier - possibly.

Had Contepomi never left, who do you think would have been starting between him and Sexton?

Rory I suspect people would be talking about him, the way they are now about McFadden. I think we'd have definitley reached a stage where he was a 25-26 year old who wasn't starting for his province.

Good point. Sexton already gets enough stick as it is about not being ready yet for international games despite playing 2 HEC finals and a RWC.

red_stag wrote:Thats not a bad point SinE, when Sexton got the jersey it was down to Contepomi getting injured and leaving Leinster. Could that have a psychological barrier - possibly.

I think Sexton had a tough time at Leinster under Cheika. It wasn't just Contempomi - Cheika brought back Horwell as well at one stage. Cheika just didn't rate him until he had to, which I found strange as I recall seeing him playing against Ulster in The Last Stand and I thought he was excellent. As soon as Contempomi was fit again, Sexton was dispatched back to the AIL again.

I also wonder if it was BOD who wanted D'Arcy at 12. Contempomi could have played there outside outside Sexton.

EDIT: further to D'Arcy at 12. Perhaps it was Ireland who demanded that D'Arcy be played at 12.

red_stag wrote:Rory I suspect people would be talking about him, the way they are now about McFadden. I think we'd have definitley reached a stage where he was a 25-26 year old who wasn't starting for his province.

Your forgetting though that Sexton was playing AIL/Magners prior to being selected by Kidney to play an Ireland A game. After that he was selected on the bench for the Heineken Cup game.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Had Contepomi never left, who do you think would have been starting between him and Sexton?

Sexton was looking to move to France anyway. He wouldn't have stuck around.

Apparently he still is.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Which Ryan do you refer to Rodders?

Sorry I mean Donnacha Ryan. Good player but looks too comfortable in POC and DOC's shadow for my liking. Maybe I'm wrong but thats what it looks like.

Sin you're some craic, only you could link what POC said back to Jonny Sexton !

Didn't know about that Sin. Makes you think though if he does have the psychological edge to perform with the best.. especially after the world cup and his terrible kicking form.

agree to an extent but i think ability is more important

however is mc fadden weak mentally or is it just that he has been behind an institution of a centre partnership both at province and for his country.

likewise for Donncha Ryan. He is stuck behind POC and Donners for province and country.

The only way we will find out how they are mentally is if they get guranteed first team rugby for a period of time. Mc Fadden will get close to it now with Dricos injury and i think Ryan will see a lot of gametime at 6 this year.

I think it would be of huge benefit to Ireland if the IRFU allowed season long loans abroad. Imagine if Nagle spent a year at Montpellier and Andrew Conway a year at say Bayonne or played in the Premiership where they are close to guaranteed a first team place.

The reality of our provincial system is you have lads who are in their mid 20's who have been bit part players for their whole careers. I mean how can Kidney select Spence,O Mahony,Dom Ryan if they are not getting HC time for their provinces.

Sexton was not very good when he first broke through for Leinster. He had a poor kicking range (distance) both from hand and from the tee.

On merit Contepomi was first choice. What became clear after a while was that Sextons game management as he matured was different class to Contepomi's at out half. Contepomi getting injured in HC Semi v Munster was a blessing in disguise. I dont think we would have beaten Leicester with the angry Argentinian in the out half jersey

roddersm wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Which Ryan do you refer to Rodders?

Sorry I mean Donnacha Ryan. Good player but looks too comfortable in POC and DOC's shadow for my liking. Maybe I'm wrong but thats what it looks like.

Sin you're some craic, only you could link what POC said back to Jonny Sexton !

Your wrong about Donnacha Ryan. He determined to get to the world cup and he got there. Thats the kind of fighting spirit you want. He was unfortunate that he got injured when POC was out, otherwise you would have seen a lot more of him.

OK, I'll pick someone else - what about Luke Fitz. It all came very easy for him (capped at 17, Denis Hickie retiring) and now he is struggling. Kearney had to work a bit harder at the start and look how he came back. Look at Bowe - not selected for the last world cup - rethought his career and was up for the challenge.

dublin_dave wrote:agree to an extent but i think ability is more important

however is mc fadden weak mentally or is it just that he has been behind an institution of a centre partnership both at province and for his country.

likewise for Donncha Ryan. He is stuck behind POC and Donners for province and country.

Weak is the wrong word. No professional athlete or rugby player is 'weak' mentally. However whether a player makes it to the very top or fulfills their potential comes a lot down to attitude and mental strength.

No player can fulfill their potential sitting on the bench.

MOD had the right idea, leaving Munster and coming back a better player. Jennings and Cullen to the Tigers as well.

dublin_dave wrote:Sexton was not very good when he first broke through for Leinster. He had a poor kicking range (distance) both from hand and from the tee.

On merit Contepomi was first choice. What became clear after a while was that Sextons game management as he matured was different class to Contepomi's at out half. Contepomi getting injured in HC Semi v Munster was a blessing in disguise. I dont think we would have beaten Leicester with the angry Argentinian in the out half jersey

Thats blasphemy in some parts of Donnybrook...

I don't agree Sin. Ryan got to the RWC in part because some of his rival's namely Kevin McGlaughlin and Touhy fell away through injury or lack of form and he was one of the few players who could cover the 6 and lock.

He played well, yes and deserved to go but he didn't do anything special. He's been fast tracked into the international fold by default without doing very much special at provincial level.

When was Ryans last motm performance? When has he ever done anything spectacular or taken a game by the scruff of the neck like O'Connell?

That's all very interesting. Experience of anything does make you better at it. And Sexton didn't really experience a fight with Contepomi for a starting spot. Contepomi was starting. And then Contepomi was gone. Maybe it did effect Sextons ability to handle the battle with ROG.

And I do think missing the last World Cup helped Bowe in the long run. He had the mental strength to react positively to it by improving himself. I do hope Fitzgerald uses last season disappointments to drive himself to improve, because he has bags of potential. A player who could bring a real spark to attack.

Feckless Rogue wrote:
And I do think missing the last World Cup helped Bowe in the long run. He had the mental strength to react positively to it by improving himself.

Absolutely. He really lifted his game out of sight after he missed out on the RWC. A lot of people think it was just the move to the Ospreys that improved Bowe but the change started in 2007/8, straight after the RWC. He was on fire for Ulster and regained his Ireland spot and then carried that on when he moved to the Ospreys and through to the Lions.

roddersm wrote:I don't agree Sin. Ryan got to the RWC in part because some of his rival's namely Kevin McGlaughlin and Touhy fell away through injury or lack of form and he was one of the few players who could cover the 6 and lock.

He played well, yes and deserved to go but he didn't do anything special. He's been fast tracked into the international fold by default without doing very much special at provincial level.

When was Ryans last motm performance? When has he ever done anything spectacular or taken a game by the scruff of the neck like O'Connell?

Ryan is a late calling to rugby (18). He got involved when he went down to his local rugby club to try and keep fit in the winter months as he was trying to get onto the Tipperary Minor hurling panel.

Ryan was also out for most of the season prior to the world cup. And McLauglin & Tuohy fell away because of injury or lack of form (another way of putting that is that they didn't work hard enough/compete hard enough for that world cup spot).

I think he got picked in the first place because of his performance against the All Blacks in Thomond Park. He also was on the Churchill Cup team/Canada Tour - so he has been knocking around until he broke his leg (I think) and was out for most of the season and missed the tour downunder last summer.

How many locks take the game like the scruf of the neck like O'Connell? (and he did have an excellent game against the ABs in Thomond).

Feckless Rogue wrote:That's all very interesting. Experience of anything does make you better at it. And Sexton didn't really experience a fight with Contepomi for a starting spot. Contepomi was starting. And then Contepomi was gone. Maybe it did effect Sextons ability to handle the battle with ROG.

And I do think missing the last World Cup helped Bowe in the long run. He had the mental strength to react positively to it by improving himself. I do hope Fitzgerald uses last season disappointments to drive himself to improve, because he has bags of potential. A player who could bring a real spark to attack.

Bowe has spoken about it - he said he really had to look at himself when he didn't get picked for the world cup. He said that he wasn't challenged in Ulster (in that he didn't have to compete for a starting spot and was assured of his spot ever week) and that is why he went to the Ospreys -he knew he was going to have to compete. (Remember, lots of people thought he was mad going there with the number of good backs they have).

Sin we'll have to agree to disagree old chum. Its all subjective anyway.

I have nothing against Ryan. He's a good player and hes come on well recently but I don't think either he or McFadden will ever be world beaters. Both are useful players for Ireland because of their versatility and will have their days to shine but thats the height of it I think.

I sincerly hope both prove me wrong.

[quote="roddersm"] Sin we'll have to agree to disagree old chum. Its all subjective anyway.

I have nothing against Ryan. He's a good player and hes come on well recently but I don't think either he or McFadden will ever be world beaters. Both are useful players for Ireland because of their versatility and will have their days to shine bu

Rumour has it he is started against the Saints instead of DOC
If that happens, would that convince you?

Sin é wrote:
Rumour has it he is started against the Saints instead of DOC
If that happens, would that convince you?

That's probably a progressive move by Munster although I think DOC has been playing ok. More gametime will help him I'm sure. I don't need convinced that he's a good player, I just don't think he'll be a top class international lock like O'Connell, Matfield, Shaw etc. Playing against Lawes will be a very good test for him.

jebus, Rodders, your not looking for much, are you

Rodders - those guys are the exceptions. All we want is a guy who can do a job at international level for now.

Sorry Stag/ Sin I want a guy who can do more than a job. Those guys aren't the exception stag, they are the opposition and if we actually want to win games then we need players who can match and better them.

There are some excellent young 2nd rows around like Lawes, Charteris, Grey etc. and that is the level our guys, like Tuohy and Ryan have to aspire to.

Thats the whole point, O'Connell wouldn't settle for just 'doing a job' and Ryan shouldn't either.

Well we can't magic one up Rodders - Ryan isn't in same class as O'Connell, Shaw, Matfield. Neither is Tuohy, neither is Toner.