The 606v2 Cricket Hall of Fame - Part 1

First topic message reminder :

Following on from Gregers' idea to implement our very own Hall of Fame at 606v2, here is the thread where all the deliberating will take place.

As you know, there is a Hall of Fame already set up by the ICC, though looking through it there are some names in that list which are debateable as to whether they really belong in such company. That, then, is up to us to decide. Let's make our Hall of Fame elitist in every way, ensuring that only the most worthy of candidates are elected.

I propose that we elect 30 founder members of our Hall of Fame before the voting gets underway - whose position in cricketing history we can all agree on. Remember, this Hall doesn't have to only include players but can include managers, figureheads or anyone else that we feel has had a significant impact upon the sport to deem them worthy of a place.

In order for a candidate to gain election to the Hall, they will need a yes vote of 75% or more. Anything less will see them fail to get in, although if they get between 50 and 75% of the vote they will be voted on again at a later date. Every candidate must be retired from the sport, and therefore no currently active players will be considered.

Every fortnight 5 candidates are considered. Voting deadlines and forthcoming candidates are listed at the bottom of the the stickied thread in the Honours Board section.

Forum members can nominate candidates by posting in the current thread, which is stickied in the main cricket section.

My suggestion for the inaugural 30 is as follows. It is intended that these be the 30 very best and uncontroversial inductees, so please put forward any suggestions that you may have as to possible changes to this list, before we get started. We need to get the right names in this initial 30. In no particular order:

1) Don Bradman 2) Ian Botham 3) Sydney Barnes 4) Sunil Gavaskar 5) W.G Grace 6) Jack Hobbs 7) Richard Hadlee 8) Imran Khan 9) Malcolm Marshall 10) Garfield Sobers 11) Shane Warne 12) Muttiah Muralitharan 13) Viv Richards 14) Clive Lloyd 15) Keith Miller 16) Andy Flower 17) Brian Lara 18) Bill O'Reilly 19) Wasim Akram 20) Glenn McGrath 21) Michael Holding 22) Richie Benaud 23) Adam Gilchrist 24) Allan Border 25) Curtly Ambrose 26) Dennis Lillee 27) Frank Worrell 28) Victor Trumper 29) Kapil Dev 30) Jim Laker

So, let me know your thoughts and possible changes to this 20, and then we will get on with the business of the first ten names that are up for nomination. Any questions let me know.

Close , eh?

This HOF is indeed going to be a classy outfit although I suppose some of us are going to be disappointed at the omission of some of our favourites...

For the record , guildford , I would have voted for G Chappell. I well remember the furore over the underhand (oops , underarm ) incident and I am less inclined than Mike to forgive him on the basis of pressure and lack of time for thought . We have all been faced with decisions on the field (Do I walk? Should I claim that catch? ) You always have a choice. And morals are for Internationals as well as club players. However one less than pure action should not negate a generally honourable career and Chappell was certainly one of the finest Australian batsmen of modern times ,justification enough to include him I think , even if his post-playing efforts have perhaps not added to his stature (ask many Indians , Ganguly would love to be quoted )

Also congratulations on the Cowdrey case ... alas not enough to swing it - must be too many youngsters on here

Thanks, Alfie.

Look forward to another old timer's vote for Cowdrey in 2012!

Ok guys, just to summarise, then: Joel Garner made it in to our Hall of Fame in the last round of votes, with Lance Gibbs narrowly missing out but remaining eligible for second ballot inclusion. Gooch, Gower and Graveney all missed out.

Some interesting candidate this week, who are as follows:

Gordon Greenidge - Greenidge was an opening batsman for the West Indies. He began his Test career against India at M. Chinnaswamy Stadium, Bangalore in 1974 and continued playing internationally until 1991. He was half of the West Indies prolific opening partnership with Desmond Haynes. The pair made 6482 runs while batting together in partnerships, the highest total for a batting partnership in Test cricket history.

Greenidge went on to play 108 Test matches scoring 7,558 runs with 19 centuries at an average of 44.72. He also played 128 One Day Internationals, including the 1975 and 1983 World Cup Finals, scoring 5,134 runs and 11 centuries.

Greenidge scored a double-double century performances against England in the 1984 summer Test series (also known as the "Blackwash" series WI winning 5-0). He scored 214 runs during the second Test at Lords in June 1984, then followed up with 223 runs during the fourth Test at Old Trafford during the last five days of July. The first of those innings was on the last day as West Indies successfully chased 342 for victory; it remains the highest ever run chase at Lords.

He also played many seasons for Hampshire in the English County Championship, and for many years opened with Barry Richards. He began his first class cricket career there before he played for Barbados and could have qualified for England. Late on in his career he appeared for Scotland. In his career he scored 37,000 runs and 92 centuries.

Greenidge is currently on the West Indies selection committee for Test matches, along with Viv Richards.

Greenidge was also successful in his coaching career. He became the coach of Bangladesh in 1997. Under his guidance Bangladesh became the champions of ICC Trophy in 1997 along with the chance to play at their first World Cup finals in 1999. Soon afterwards Greenidge was given the honorary citizenship of the country. He also coached them during the 1999 Cricket World Cup and the team were eventually promoted to a Test playing nation after their performance during the World Cup.

Clarrie Grimmett - born in New Zealand, he played most of his cricket in Australia. He is thought by many to be one of the finest early spin bowlers, and usually credited as the developer of the flipper.

He played club cricket in Wellington, and made his first-class debut for Wellington at the age of 17. At that time, New Zealand was not a Test cricketing nation, and in 1914 he moved to neighbouring Australia, then as now one of the sport's superpowers.

He played club cricket in Sydney for 3 years. After marrying a Victorian, he moved to Melbourne, where he played first-class cricket for Victoria. He moved to South Australia in 1923, but it is for his performances in Test cricket for the Australian cricket team that he is best remembered.

Grimmett played 37 Tests between 1924 and 1936, taking 216 wickets at an average of just 24.21 runs apiece. He took a five wicket haul on debut against England in Sydney in 1925. He became the first bowler to reach the milestone of taking 200 Test wickets, and is one of only two Test bowlers that played in their first Test after the age of thirty to take 100 wickets, the other being Dilip Doshi. He took an average of six wickets per match. Many wickets in the last four years of his Test career were taken bowling in tandem with fellow leg-spinner Bill O'Reilly.

Grimmett remains the only bowler with career figures of over 200 wickets in fewer than 40 Tests. He took a five-wicket 'bag' on 21 occasions, seven times finishing with ten wickets or more in a match. His Test career only began when he was aged 33, and ended when he was 44, playing his last Test against South Africa in Durban. Despite taking 44 wickets in the series, and continued success in first-class cricket, he was dropped for the 1936/7 series at home against England, replaced by Frank Ward, and did not join the 1938 tour to England.

His first-class records holds a total of 1,424 wickets in 248 matches between 1911 and 1941, again at a rate close to six wickets per match. This total included 5 wicket bags on over 120 occasions and - in one performance for a touring Australian side against Yorkshire in 1930, he took 10 wickets for 37 runs off 22.3 overs, one of only a very small number of players to have claimed all of the wickets in an innings. He took 513 wickets in his 79 Sheffield Shield matches.

Grimmett was a Wisden Cricketer of the Year in 1931, the same year as Donald Bradman. He died in Adelaide in 1980, but was posthumously inducted into the Australian Cricket Hall of Fame in 1996 as one of the ten inaugural members.

Wally Hammond - an English Test cricketer who played for Gloucestershire in a career that lasted from 1920 to 1951. Beginning his career as a professional, he later became an amateur and was appointed captain of England. Primarily a middle-order batsman, Wisden Cricketers' Almanack described him in his obituary as one of the four best batsmen in the history of cricket. He was considered to be the best English batsman of the 1930s by commentators and those with whom he played; they also said that he was one of the best slip fielders ever. Hammond was an effective fast-medium pace bowler and contemporaries believed that if he had been less reluctant to bowl, he could have achieved even more with the ball than he did.

In a Test career spanning 85 matches, he scored 7,249 runs at an average of 58.45 and took 83 wickets at an average of 37.80. Hammond captained England in 20 of those Tests, winning four, losing three, and drawing 13. His career aggregate of runs was the highest in Test cricket until surpassed by Colin Cowdrey in 1970. As of October 2010, his total of 22 Test centuries remains an English record, held jointly with Cowdrey and Geoffrey Boycott. In 1933, he set a record for the highest individual Test innings of 336 not out, surpassed by Len Hutton in 1938. In all first-class cricket, he scored 50,551 runs, the seventh highest total scored by any first-class cricketer as of January 2010, and took 732 wickets. He scored 167 first-class centuries, the third highest of any player as of January 2010.

Although Hammond began his career in 1920, he was required to wait until 1923 before he could play full time, after his qualification to play for Gloucestershire was challenged. His potential was spotted immediately and after three full seasons, he was chosen to visit the West Indies in 1925–26 as a member of a Marylebone Cricket Club (M.C.C.) touring party, but contracted a serious illness on the tour. He began to score heavily after his recovery in 1927 and was selected for England. In the 1928–29 series against Australia he scored 905 runs, then a record aggregate for a Test series. He dominated county cricket in the 1930s and, despite a mid-decade slump in Test form, was made captain of England in 1938. He continued as captain after the Second World War, but his health had deteriorated and he retired from first-class cricket after an unsuccessful tour of Australia in 1946–47.

It should be noted that Hammond disapproved of Bodyline bowling, believing it to be dangerous, although he understood some of the reasons for its use. He kept his feelings hidden during the tour, preferring to go along with his captain and the rest of the team. It was not until 1946 that he openly voiced his opinion.

Neil Harvey - a former Australian cricketer who represented the Australian cricket team between 1948 and 1963, playing in 79 Test matches. He was the vice-captain of the team from 1957 until his retirement. An attacking left-handed batsman, sharp fielder and occasional off-spin bowler, Harvey was the senior batsman in the Australian team for much of the 1950s and was regarded by Wisden as the finest fielder of his era. Upon his retirement, Harvey was the second-most prolific Test run-scorer and century-maker for Australia.

One of six cricketing brothers, four of whom represented Victoria, Harvey followed his elder brother Merv into Test cricket and made his debut in January 1948, aged 19 and three months. In his second match, he became the youngest Australian to score a Test century, a record that still stands. Harvey was the youngest member of the 1948 Invincibles of Don Bradman to tour England, regarded as one of the finest teams in history. After initially struggling in English conditions, he made a century on his Ashes debut. Harvey started his career strongly, with six centuries in his first thirteen Test innings at an average over 100, including four in 1949–50 against South Africa, including a match-winning 151 not out on a sticky wicket. As Bradman's team broke up in the 1950s due to retirements, Harvey became Australia's senior batsman, and was named as one of the Wisden Cricketers of the Year in 1954, in recognition of his feat in scoring more than 2,000 runs during the 1953 tour of England.

In 1957 he was passed over for the captaincy and was named as the deputy of Ian Craig, who had played just six matches, as Australia sought to rebuild the team with a youth policy following a decline in the team. Craig later offered to demote himself due to poor form, but Harvey prevented him from doing so. Craig fell ill the following season, but Harvey moved interstate and Richie Benaud was promoted to the captaincy ahead of him. Harvey continued in the deputy's role until the end of his career, and was captain for only one Test match. In the Second Test at Lord's in 1961, when Benaud was injured, Harvey led the team in the "Battle of the Ridge" on an erratic surface, grinding out a hard fought victory. Only Bradman had scored more runs and centuries for Australia at the time of Harvey's retirement. Harvey was best known for his extravagant footwork and flamboyant stroke play, as well as his fielding. Harvey was particularly known for his innings in conditions unfavourable to batting, performing when his colleagues struggled, such as his 151 not out in Durban, his 92 not out in Sydney in 1954–55 and his 96 on the matting in Dhaka. In retirement, he became a national selector for twelve years but in recent times is best known for his strident criticism of modern cricket. In 2000, he was inducted into the Australian Cricket Hall of Fame in and selected in the Australian Cricket Board's Team of the Century.

Harvey finished his Test career with 6,149 runs at an average of 48.41, including 21 centuries.

George Headley - a West Indian cricketer who played 22 Test matches, mostly before the Second World War. Considered one of the best batsmen to play for West Indies and one of the greatest cricketers of all time, Headley also represented Jamaica and played professional club cricket in England. West Indies had a weak cricket team through most of Headley's playing career; as their one world-class player, he carried a heavy responsibility and the side depended on his batting. He batted at number three, scoring 2,190 runs in Tests at an average of 60.83 (including 10 centuries), and 9,921 runs in all first-class matches at an average of 69.86. He was chosen as one of the Wisden Cricketers of the Year in 1933.

Headley was born in Panama but raised in Jamaica where he quickly established a cricketing reputation as a batsman. He soon gained his place in the Jamaican cricket team, and narrowly missed selection for the West Indies tour of England in 1928. He made his Test debut in 1930, against England in Barbados, and was instantly successful. Further successes followed in series against Australia and in three more against England, as Headley dominated the West Indian batting of the period. Following his tour of England in 1933, Headley signed as a professional at Haslingden in the Lancashire League, where he played until the outbreak of war in 1939.
The war interrupted Headley's career; although he returned to Tests in 1948 he was hampered by injuries and did not achieve his previous levels of success. Even so, he was chosen as West Indies captain in 1948 against England, the first black player to be appointed to the position, although a combination of injuries and politics meant he only led his team for one Test match. He did not play Tests between 1949 and 1953, but resumed his career in English league cricket, first in Lancashire and later in the Birmingham League. His playing career ended in 1954 on his return to Jamaica, after a public subscription paid his fare from England. After retiring as a player, Headley was employed as a cricket coach by the Jamaican government until 1962.

I'm sure you'll agree that there are some fine cricketers up for debate this fortnight, and I envisage a few tight votes once again!

Some fantastic cricketers to talk about this week.

I can see 5 YESs quite easily. At the moment I am thinking 3 definite OKs, and 2 I'm not quite sure on.

For those looking at sheer statistical weight of achievement, I hope the seven WWII years (appropriately mentioned by Fists but it's impossible to extrapolate possible accomplishments in missing years) will be taken into consideration when judging the relative merits of Messrs Hammond and Headley.

Some very good cricketers here.

Greenidge: To me he falls into a similar category as Gooch, Gower and Graveney from the last 5 candidates. Undoubtedly a very fine player, capable of outstanding innings but, for me, his overall record falls short of greatness-NO

Grimmett-Inventor of the flipper. Least matches played of anyone with 200+ test wickets. 21 5fers in only 67 innings. And all acheived despite not making his test debut til he was 33-Definite YES

Hammond- Should have been in the original 30 IMHO. Do we really need to list the reasons he should be included?-YES,YES,YES

Harvey-This is trickier. Overall record better than the likes of Greenidge, Gooch, Cowdrey etc., but not really up there with the greats. However, he was reknowned as an attacking batsman and, unlike those before him, adapted to a variety of conditions around the world. Also reknowned for never questioning the umpires and never appealing for LBW when fielding at slip.-YES

Headley-The 'Collosus', the 'Black Bradman' (although West Indians preferred to refer to Bradman as the 'White Headley'). Average of 60+, carried West Indian batting for a decade+, best on-side player Clarrie Grimmett ever saw. Again should have been in the original 30 IMHO (not having a dig Fists )-Definite YES

Kwini - good point, well made.

Very tricky this time - at least for me! As some of you know, I like to pick in my opinion a deserving (I emphasise deserving) underdog and fight his corner.

Who is the underdog of these five?

What's it all about, Alfie?

guildfordbat wrote:

Who is the underdog of these five?

Thanks for the possible steer, Hoggy.

Maybe Greenidge guilford? But then there was that 211* (I think...)...

Certainly if anyone votes NO for Hammond I will actually be annoyed... Ditto Headley.

Folks - please forgive my ignorance but can anyone tell me why Grimmett didn't play Test cricket until aged 33.

The question is not meant to be slanted either way as regards voting at this stage - just interested, thanks.

Mike - you're reading my doosra too easily! Maybe, indeed.

Btw, Mike, have you seen my post, largely for you on ''5 greatest ODI innings thread''?

Best, Guildford

guildfordbat wrote:Folks - please forgive my ignorance but can anyone tell me why Grimmett didn't play Test cricket until aged 33.

The question is not meant to be slanted either way as regards voting at this stage - just interested, thanks.

He was born in New Zealand and didn't move to to Oz until 1914. The war then intervened and it wasn't until after that that he could start establishing himself in the Sheffield Shield, first with Victoria, but it wasn't until he moved to South Australia in 1923 that his career really took off, leading to his test debut.

Thanks, Hoggy.

Certainly a slow burner before taking off in spectacular fashion.

Guilford,

Just checked out that thread, and answered your post there.

The more I think about it, the more I think I'll be giving 5 YESs this week.

Thanks, Mike.

As a comment about myself and nominees for the HoF, I never like to commit myself too quickly. I appreciate we can change our mind up until the last minute but my personal preference is to remember the player (if I can), read up a bit and listen to the opinions of others on here.

That all said, these five do on the surface seem very strong.

Completely agree, Guildford - always best to source as many bits of information and opinions as possible before giving a decisive answer.

5 very good cricketers here. My initial thoughts are:

Greenidge - In my opinion falls just short of HOF status despite the great innings already discussed

Grimmett - Undoubtedly brilliant record but a couple of points to consider. 1) He never played on sub-continent pitches or, more potently for a spinner, against sub-continental batsmen 2) Only played against 3 different teams and 22 of his 37 Tests were against England so didn't come up against the range of batsmen which post-war spinners would have done. I suppose that some of this could be considered both positive and negative - so far I am erring towards a regrettable no

Hammond - YES. Record speaks for itself and wrote the record books for English batsmen. Simply prolific

Harvey - A very difficult one. Needs further investigation

Headley - An extremely strong case for me. Great statistics in a weak team playing against stronger opposition all of the time, plus the status of being a black player in a predominantly white team and the first black captain of his country

Wow, you're a hard man to please, Shelsey! However, you make some very valid points that should be considered, too.

I have a vague idea of who I will be giving the nod to, but there are a couple that could quite easily be tipped the other way in the aftermath of the debate here in the next 14 days.

Fists,
Regarding Wally Hammond, I would like to amplify/quantify your: Hammond "was one of the best slip fielders ever".
He took 820 catches in 634 first class matches (plus 3 stumpings!), and:
He took 110 catches in 85 Test Matches.

Thanks for those stats, Kwini.

Truly exceptional stats for a non-wicket-keeper - almost Hall of Fame worthy alone

Shelsey
It must be remembered that English (and probably Australian) batsmen were far more used to facing spin bowling (especially leg-spin), at the time Grimmett was bowling than English batsmen of the last few decades and, on occasion, on pitches that aided such bowling to a very large extent .

I think you have to consider whether the restrictive nature of competition should be held against star performers of another era.

Far better for cricketers' legacies in my opinion for them not to have been able to play against certain teams (or in War Time), than for them to have accumulated massive stat's playing against weak teams, whether in the 50's and 60's or more recently.

Personally I place added importance also to cricketers who played successfully in iconic Series victories. All a bit difficult to research and try to sort the wheat from the chaff, I know.

kwinigolfer wrote:Fists,
Regarding Wally Hammond, I would like to amplify/quantify your: Hammond "was one of the best slip fielders ever".
He took 820 catches in 634 first class matches (plus 3 stumpings!), and:
He took 110 catches in 85 Test Matches.

Hammond was a real all-rounder. Great batsman, great fielder and capable of bowling in a number of different styles. Len Hutton even recalled him bowling top class leg-spin.

Early thoughts are for three votes of YES, one undecided and one NO vote.
But the undecided is very close to a YES, more work to do, for his case.

Morning all. Have been on patrol and so missed out on the announcement. Very disappointed about Gibbs, but I am sure he will stand out among the other near misses when the time comes. Fists - am hoping that the second round of voting takes place during the English cricket season when Guildford and I will be able to round up all the seasonal Surrey posters in support of Sir Lancelot.

Instant reaction - there's probably going to be 4 YES from this grouping. Obviously an oversight that Hammond was not in the original list...

Maybe we should close the voting on Hammond now...
* test average almost as high as Barrington's - but with bags of added flair and panache
*joint leading test century maker for England (in many fewer tests than Boycott and Cowdrey) - but for WWII would almost certainly be far in the lead
* third highest total of first class centuries
* outstanding slip fielder and useful bowler
* stylish - and the stuff of which heroes are made: "The instant he walked out of a pavilion, white-spotted blue handkerchief showing from his right pocket, bat tucked underarm, cap at a hint of an angle, he was identifiable as a thoroughbred".
* Against Surrey , he scored a century in both innings and held ten catches, including six in the second innings, which remains a first-class record as of January 2010
* cameo football career with Bristol Rovers, scoring twice.

Perhaps it's only fair to report that he was not always well regarded by other players:
* David Foot quotes an unnamed cricketer saying that the two ruling passions of Hammond's life "were his cricket bat and his genitals" Team-mates regarded him as moody, private and uncommunicative. * "Often silent in the company of others, he could be arrogant and unfriendly" Wiki

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:Maybe we should close the voting on Hammond now...
* test average almost as high as Barrington's - but with bags of added flair and panache
*joint leading test century maker for England (in many fewer tests than Boycott and Cowdrey) - but for WWII would almost certainly be far in the lead
* third highest total of first class centuries
* outstanding slip fielder and useful bowler
* stylish - and the stuff of which heroes are made: "The instant he walked out of a pavilion, white-spotted blue handkerchief showing from his right pocket, bat tucked underarm, cap at a hint of an angle, he was identifiable as a thoroughbred".
* Against Surrey , he scored a century in both innings and held ten catches, including six in the second innings, which remains a first-class record as of January 2010
* cameo football career with Bristol Rovers, scoring twice.

Perhaps it's only fair to report that he was not always well regarded by other players:
* David Foot quotes an unnamed cricketer saying that the two ruling passions of Hammond's life "were his cricket bat and his genitals" Team-mates regarded him as moody, private and uncommunicative. * "Often silent in the company of others, he could be arrogant and unfriendly" Wiki

I think so too, can not see anything but a YES vote, too good and still the holder of many records.

Agreed YES! for Hammond.
I had also read that he was a "serial philanderer". Not that there's (necessarily) anything wrong with that!

Corporal - agreed. Even at this very early stage, it has to be a YES from me for Hammond.

I need to consider and assess better the other four. However, I am surprised by the early NO's for some (even if tentative).

Perhaps worth ponting out that Grimmett was 6th in our Top Ten Spinners List, one place above Gibbs who so narrowly missed out yesterday.

I would guess that Greenidge will be around the same place in our Top Ten Opening Batsmen List. I've asked Fists to confirm if he can.

kwinigolfer wrote:
I had also read that he was a "serial philanderer". Not that there's (necessarily) anything wrong with that!

Kwini - not connected with your relocation to a different continent thirty-five years ago, I trust?

guildfordbat wrote:

kwinigolfer wrote:
I had also read that he was a "serial philanderer". Not that there's (necessarily) anything wrong with that!

Kwini - not connected with your relocation to a different continent thirty-five years ago, I trust?

guildfordbat wrote:Perhaps worth ponting out that Grimmett was 6th in our Top Ten Spinners List, one place above Gibbs who so narrowly missed out yesterday.

That's only 'cause some people on this board SERIOUSLY overrate Gibbs

Hoggy_Bear wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:Perhaps worth ponting out that Grimmett was 6th in our Top Ten Spinners List, one place above Gibbs who so narrowly missed out yesterday.

That's only 'cause some people on this board SERIOUSLY overrate Gibbs

guildfordbat wrote:Corporal - agreed. Even at this very early stage, it has to be a YES from me for Hammond.

I need to consider and assess better the other four. However, I am surprised by the early NO's for some (even if tentative).

Perhaps worth ponting out that Grimmett was 6th in our Top Ten Spinners List, one place above Gibbs who so narrowly missed out yesterday.

I would guess that Greenidge will be around the same place in our Top Ten Opening Batsmen List. I've asked Fists to confirm if he can.

Fists has just confirmed that Greenidge was as high as third equal in our Top Test Opening Batsmen List. Food for thought.

Looking back at the start of the thread I see that Mad for Chelsea and Hoggy both suggested Hammond for the original 30. If I had been concentrating at the time I would certainly have supported his exclusion at the expense of Clive Lloyd, but I suppose we can't rewrite history....

Must say that I'm veering toward "not quite" for Greenidge and a yes for Grimmett. The latter's haul of 5wts in an innings is very impressive as is the low number of tests he took to reach 200 wickets...

As a further piece of evidence to support Grimmett, I'd like to include my favourite Grimmett story (first posted on the Pre-war vs. Post-war thread)

When he first invented the Flipper, a major problem was that when he bowled it the fingers on his bowling hand clicked together making an audible sound and telling the batsman when he bowled it. This soon got around the circuit and, one day, Grimmett was getting more and more frustrated as everytime he bowled the Fipper the batsman knew what was coming and played a perfect defensive shot. So when he came on to bowl again, he tossed one up and the batsman heard the telltale snap of fingers, played for the Flipper but found instead that Grimmett had bowled a leg-break which took the edge of the bat and was caught at slip. The batsman walked off astounded and the Umpire turned to Grimmett and said "You sly Devil. When you bowled that you snapped the fingers on your other hand didn't you?". Grimmett simply smiled in reply..

Anecdotal, I agree, but it does give some example of the guile for which he was rightly reknowned.

I love that story, Hoggy, well worth reading again for sure!

Corporal, many a fine name were thrown forward for the initial 30, alas we couldn't get them all in. Never mind, his place will be secured shortly, I'd have thought.

Corporal - we also overlooked the Viscount ....

Can I just say that I shall without doubt be joining the YES camp for Hammond. Didn't he also briefly hold the highest test score with his 336 also?

And it has to be a clear YES for Headley, with an average of over 60. Both could easily have been included in the original 30.

The rest still require some thought, and I await arguments made either way eagerly.

Mike Selig wrote:Can I just say that I shall without doubt be joining the YES camp for Hammond.

I think the NO campaign for Hammond is keeping its power dry at the moment! Or maybe it hasn't got any powder in the first place....

Mike Selig wrote:Hi guilford,

I agree that I don't value longevity that highly. Or that is, I don't rate "being very good over an outstanding length of time" as enough to be "great". This doesn't mean I don't value longevity, far from it: I perfectly accept that someone who averages 50 over 15 years is a better player than someone who averages 50 over 5 years.

H Mike,

That is clear and fair.

I only raise the matter again as I suspect some posters may see Gordon Greenidge's Test career average of (almost) 45 in isolation and vote NO as a consequence. In my view, that would be unfair.

Your example above was very clear cut. Nothing wrong with that at all as you were trying and succeeding in making a point. However, matters become a little more blurred when trying to take a snapshot of Greenidge's Test stats.

In my view, Greenidge was much better than very good and made several outstanding contributions over a very lengthy period of time (seventeen years).

It should also be noted that in his last twenty-seven Test innings, he only twice reached fifty (although one of these innings was rather special as I'll cover tonight). If you take his final fourteen Tests out of the calculations, his Test average rises to comfortably above 47. Greenidge played his last Test innings on his fortieth birthday. I'm not saying this should be ignored but it should be recognised that at this time he was being selected very much for his influence and proven mastery.

This post is aimed very much along the lines of - Don't vote NO just on the basis of his final Test average. I'll try to post some key points in favour of a YES vote tonight although I do believe Fists' summary makes a strong case already.

Mike - I'm not suggesting there's a great deal in this post that you don't know already. I'm just keen that we don't as a group rush to vote before everything is on the table.

Initial thoughts:

Greenidge - Maybe.. leaning towards no

Grimmett
- No

Hammond - Yes

Harvey - Maybe.. leaning towards yes

Headley
- Yes

i will vote either tonight or late tomorrow.

I'm slightly leaning towards no for Greenidge - but not a decisive no and I could be persuaded otherwise..... . I imagine the yes camp will concede it's not as clear cut as several other W Indian greats such as Viv Richards, Sobers, Marshall....

Gregers wrote:Initial thoughts:

Greenidge - Maybe.. leaning towards no

Gregers,

Did you know that Greenidge hates Pietersen with a vengeance?







You didn't! Well, nor do I but he might do, I suppose. I know I'll neve be able to post such a convincing argument for you as Greenidge disliking Pietersen but I'll try to post a few factors in his favour tonight.

Gregers,

Just belatedly noticed your intended ''No'' for Grimmett.

Your vote so your call but would appreciate knowing any key negatives for you. Thanks.

guildfordbat wrote:It should also be noted that in his last twenty-seven Test innings, he only twice reached fifty (although one of these innings was rather special as I'll cover tonight). If you take his final fourteen Tests out of the calculations, his Test average rises to comfortably above 47. Greenidge played his last Test innings on his fortieth birthday. I'm not saying this should be ignored but it should be recognised that at this time he was being selected very much for his influence and proven mastery.

Guildford - I await further update with interest. Agree one has to be careful about deploying that argument. I'm wondering for example whether Gooch's average would have gone up a few if one discarded his earlier performances for England when perhaps he wasn't fully ready for selection. Or Ponting's average maybe in the process of drifting downwards at the moment. Bit difficult to know where to draw the line....

Gordon Greenidge: NO. IMO not one of windies greatest so therefore not good enough to be in HOF. NO.

Clarrie Grimmett:Toughest out of the lot to decide on. However im gonna have to say no. IMO, gibbs was better and he somehow didnt qualify so its a no from me. NO

Wally Hammond: YES. Has to be a yes. One of the greatest players of all time, probably england's best, reguarly churned out runs at nearly 59 ( he could also bowl a bit YES

Neil Harvey: YES. Fantastic player reguarly churned out runs, and one of aussie's best. YES

George Headley: YES. Didnt play a lot of tests, however he averaged 60 from 22 tests, and has to be inducted into HOF. YES

cf not trying to have a go, but in what ways do you think Gibbs was better than Grimmett?
Grimmett has a superior average and strike-rate, more 5fers (from far fewer matches), more wickets per match AND invented a delivery which has become an important weapon in the armoury of modern leg spinners.