The 606v2 Cricket Hall of Fame - Part 1

First topic message reminder :

Following on from Gregers' idea to implement our very own Hall of Fame at 606v2, here is the thread where all the deliberating will take place.

As you know, there is a Hall of Fame already set up by the ICC, though looking through it there are some names in that list which are debateable as to whether they really belong in such company. That, then, is up to us to decide. Let's make our Hall of Fame elitist in every way, ensuring that only the most worthy of candidates are elected.

I propose that we elect 30 founder members of our Hall of Fame before the voting gets underway - whose position in cricketing history we can all agree on. Remember, this Hall doesn't have to only include players but can include managers, figureheads or anyone else that we feel has had a significant impact upon the sport to deem them worthy of a place.

In order for a candidate to gain election to the Hall, they will need a yes vote of 75% or more. Anything less will see them fail to get in, although if they get between 50 and 75% of the vote they will be voted on again at a later date. Every candidate must be retired from the sport, and therefore no currently active players will be considered.

Every fortnight 5 candidates are considered. Voting deadlines and forthcoming candidates are listed at the bottom of the the stickied thread in the Honours Board section.

Forum members can nominate candidates by posting in the current thread, which is stickied in the main cricket section.

My suggestion for the inaugural 30 is as follows. It is intended that these be the 30 very best and uncontroversial inductees, so please put forward any suggestions that you may have as to possible changes to this list, before we get started. We need to get the right names in this initial 30. In no particular order:

1) Don Bradman 2) Ian Botham 3) Sydney Barnes 4) Sunil Gavaskar 5) W.G Grace 6) Jack Hobbs 7) Richard Hadlee 8) Imran Khan 9) Malcolm Marshall 10) Garfield Sobers 11) Shane Warne 12) Muttiah Muralitharan 13) Viv Richards 14) Clive Lloyd 15) Keith Miller 16) Andy Flower 17) Brian Lara 18) Bill O'Reilly 19) Wasim Akram 20) Glenn McGrath 21) Michael Holding 22) Richie Benaud 23) Adam Gilchrist 24) Allan Border 25) Curtly Ambrose 26) Dennis Lillee 27) Frank Worrell 28) Victor Trumper 29) Kapil Dev 30) Jim Laker

So, let me know your thoughts and possible changes to this 20, and then we will get on with the business of the first ten names that are up for nomination. Any questions let me know.

I'd like to know as well, I think Clarrie would be a fine addition to our Hall of Fame.

Count me in too.

I would just like to add that I have changed a few of my YES/NO votes not because i felt I had to, but because after a lot of your excellent debates and further research I felt I was wrong and too hasty in my own views.

And another one will be Chappell when he comes up for re-election.

I also think Grimmett would be a worthy addition to the HoF.

Skye, glad you made a change or two, it shows that the debate has been worthwhile

Always good to gather as much information and opinion as possible in order to make a proper assessment.

honestly, i think there are better spinners who didnt get the nod

e.g. Lance Gibbs. Bowled in a side where it was all quicks, didnt get much of a look in, but when he did made the most of it, first spinner too 300 test wickets etc

and IMO he was a better spinner. People dont agree i know, but thats my reasoning.

Cheers, CF.

I understand your points about Gibbs being the first spinner to 300 wickets and having a battle on his hands to get the ball off the quicks.

Personally, I would like to see both Gibbs and Grimmett in the Hall of Fame but there you are!

All about opinions. Just helps sometimes if the reasons for them can be explained. Thanks for doing so.

ok mate no worries.

I've already given three YES votes - for Hammond, Headley and Grimmett. I have now decided on a YES (just) for Greenidge in the light of the powerful arguments mounted, especially by Guildford. And a regretful NO (just) for Harvey - who was a very fine player.

As debate has gone on I must say I'm surprised Grimmett's position is in doubt. The arguments have been well rehearsed, but for me his remarkable haul of 5+ wickets, and his original contribution to the development of spin bowling really do stand out.

Thanks for the YES on Greenidge, Corporal.

However, as I've said to others (including Shelsey even though he was so misguided as to turn down Greenidge ), what I really appreciate is people taking the time to consider the argument.

(Hope you've seen my SOS to you on the 'Christmas Humbug' thread )

Hi ...brief visit - presume we have until 31st to get final votes in?

But anyway I will confirm "YES" for Hammond Headley and Grimmett ... which won't surprise anyone.

Still considering the other two : someone mentioned consistency - so I have to decide if I should be consistent in my own previously established standards , so my yes for Gooch ensures the same for Greenidge , and similarly Cowdrey - Harvey or should I accept the overall decisions against those two (and Boycott) as a pointer towards no?

(You can see I'm taking this business seriously)

Anyway a decision in a few days I promise and in the meantime Christmas greetings to all...

Hi Alfie, What's it all about?

Just briefly looking in whilst taking a quick break from my role as unpaid taxi driver to the Bat girls.

Your uncertainty over consistency is exactly the same as I've felt about it.

Not saying this is correct but .... I voted YES for Harvey (by a narrow margin) as I feel his overall record and achievements merit it and even though I feel he's a rung on the ladder below Cowdrey. Cowdrey of course got a certain YES from me before but an overall NO from other posters.

My stance really is to try and take everything as much as possible into account and then vote as I feel right. Comments from fellow posters on current nominees and previous votes on other nominees will always be considered by me - sometimes they may influence me, sometimes they may not. That might not be right to some but it's my vote!

Merry Christmas to you and all!

Hi all, just dropping in to let you know we can extend this one slightly, and as long as votes are in by say the 3rd January then that is fine by me. Thanks to all for the consistently brilliant debate this thread has been subject to.

Just want to offer some further comment in support of Neil Harvey, with two caveats as a prologue:

1).Surely we should be judging players, regardless of average, in comparison with others of their era?

2).And shouldn't we be judging a cricketer at his peak? Provided of course that that "peak" spans a significant period, a decade for instance.


With regard to Harvey, it has been acknowledged that he was the finest outfielder of his generation, so let's just address his batting:

1).Best of an era? Well, certainly in Australian baggy greens, he was by some way the top Australian batsman of the post-Bradman late forties to the advent of Lawry and Simpson a decade or so later. It has been noted that, upon his retirement he was second only to Bradman in Aussie Test runs scored and Centuries. Harvey's Test average through the end of the fifties was a robust 54-ish.
Harvey's performance in Ashes series have been noted, significantly lower average than against other Test opponents. The biggest scar is clearly falling victim to Laker and Lock in 1956, but even with an average of just 19 he top scored in two innings - run totals were, by and large, lower than we may have become accustomed to.
His other Ashes averages were, chronologically:
66, 40, 34, 44, 48, 42, 39.


2).It could be argued that, once he'd turned 32 Harvey owed his place as much to the lack of young Aussie up-and-comers, and his average for the final 14 Tests of his career was a more mundane 33.6. (I am well aware that this argument has also been made in testimony pro Greenidge,with equal validity.)

But let's remind ourselves how Neil Harvey is judged by fellow Aussies.

1).In the Team of the Century, named in 2000, he was named at #5:
Ponsford, Morris, Bradman, G.Chappell, Harvey, Miller, Healy, Lindwall, Warne, Lillee, O'Reilly. (No Benaud or Border from the inaugural 606v2 Hall Of Fame intake.)

2).And he was named to the Australian Cricket Hall Of Fame in 2000 following the inaugural intake of Ten players, along with Woodfull and Border.


I will be voting YES! for Neil Harvey, arguably the best Test batsman of the 1950's and the top Aussie bat between Bradman and at least Border.

My vote for these five, therefore, will be;
Greenidge: Yes (you're very persuasive!)
Grimmett: No
Hammond: Of Course
Harvey: Yes
Headley: Yes.


PS: I am also reminded of two curiosities regarding Neil Harvey during a torrid tour of Pakistan in the late fifties:
1).During the First Test, at Dhaka, Harvey scored 96 out of an Aussie total of 225 while suffering from fever and dysentry, having reportedly to leave the field SIX times "to recompose" himself.

2).In the face of a successful Aussie run-chase in the Second Test in Lahore, Pakistan time-wasted incessantly, taking advantage of a prolific, but left-hander/right-hander (Harvey/O'Neill) partnership by changing field-placings every time there was a change of strike. Harvey allegedly allowed himself to be bowled so permitting right-handed Benaud to come to the crease and knock off the necessary runs with less excuse for time-wasting and minutes to spare.

Bonus marks for each of the above!

Kwini, thanks for that, some very good information there.

I'll take one more look at Harvey in the coming days to see if I can't be persuaded.

Fists of Fury wrote:Kwini, thanks for that, some very good information there.

I'll take one more look at Harvey in the coming days to see if I can't be persuaded.

Hi Kwini - I echo Fists' opening sentence above. Certainly ''some very good information there.''

I've already voted YES but hope others who have voted NO or are yet to decide look at him again in the light of your comments.

A couple of non-Harvey questions arising:

1. Why do you vote NO re Grimmett? That's not a dig although I'm a bit surprised and certainly interested. Apologies if you covered this in those distant long ago days before Christmas and I've since forgotten..

2. Why is Benaud not revered in Australia nearly as highly as he is here?

'Evening guildford, Hope the festivities are treating you well?

1).Primarily because O'Reilly is clearly thought of more highly than Grimmett though they're both from the same generation. And I was very interested that Grimmett was passed over for the Aussie Team of the Century. I'm not inclined to be over generous to the poor guy who had to play second fiddle to a legend, though Sutcliffe may be an exception when the time comes.

Arithmetically, one would think that this intake of 606v2 HOF'ers will be somewhere between 18 and 30 in number, and I struggle with the notion that Grimmett is in that top 60. The next round perhaps. (And clearly I would have voted No to one or two already elected.) Which, of course, brings me to:

2).Never been to Australia so I'm guessing! Purely as a cricketer, Benaud's accomplishments are statistically ordinary at the top level of Test all-rounders; batting average of 24, bowling average of 27, but obviously a superb Captain. For much of his later career at the time, and in retrospect, one felt that his might have been the first name on the team-sheet, but as skipper rather than player.
Interesting that, when he was out of the team due to injury, Bobby Simpson tended to be the only Aussie spinner - no-one else worth their place.
Obviously Benaud's contributions from the commentary box have been immense, but he is hardly alone in that respect.

I wonder what alfie thinks?

Tempted to suggest a spot of mild corruption. If Kwini responded to the powerful case for Grimmett I might just see my way to having second thoughts on my NO vote for Harvey! But I'm sure such unworthy tactics and thoughts never sullied the original HoF voting....

Interesting that Benaud's test averages are rather similar to those of Graham Swann.

Happy to leave you confined to barracks on that option, Corporal punishment perhaps, though am quite happy to consider a switch - ditch Benaud from the Original 30 and consider Grimmett next time around.

Benaud's place in HoF has to be secure if only on account of his reported comparison between Gladstone Small and Graham Dilley

Just reading kwinis reasoning for his no vote against Grimmett.
Though it is true that O'Reilly is widely regarded as the better bowler (thanks largely to his prompotion by Bradman), having read a number of qotes from O'Reilly, I don't think that O'Reilly himself nesseccarily shared that view.
It is also interesting to look at their records in matches they played together.
In 15 matches Grimmett took 88 wickets at an average of 20.85, with an economy rate of 1.86, a strike rate of 67.2, 9 5WIs and 4 10WMs
O'Reilly's figures are 81, 21.46, 1.93, 66.7, 6 and 2.
So, in the matches they played together, Grimmett has the better record.
Maybe O'Reilly wasn't the better bowler afterall

Thing is Hoggy, I wasn't there to see who was better; maybe you weren't either?
So, one has to make judgements based upon the opinions of others.
I have come to my conclusion, partly circumstantial, partly anecdotal, but the real issue is whether one is inclined to pick for a very elite, presumably, group two players of (loosely) similar type.
I am reluctant to do so.

Kwini
I don't see a problem in picking two players of a similar type from the same era, if both are demonstrably greats.
Would you not pick Hammond because he's not as good as Bradman?
Any batsman from the 1910s or 20s other than Hobbs?

Hoggy,
Don't think Bradman and Hammond both played for the same team; if they did, a Players vs Gentlemen of the day perhaps?, it would be interesting to see the reviews of the time, who came out the better.
But BO'R and CG DID play for the same team at the same time, and subsequently choices were made as to who was the better bowler - invariably BO'R was chosen.
And I certainly owned up that I would have to renege that rule of thumb when considering, say, Sutcliffe.

But Benaud, the Australian Cricket Board (not to mention 606v2) and perhaps others, all selected BO'R in preference to Grimmett. And I will take their advice at this time. (Doesn't make me right, just my judgement call.)

Nice points from Kwini re Harvey.

Although I put the "maybe no" case against him I did so more in the interests of stimulating debate than from any strong anti-Harvey feelings. Trouble is , I nearly convinced myself ... Nevertheless , I am still considering voting yes, and your input is appreciated.
Must say I rather like the notion of looking at those around him : in the late 50s - early 60s I for one certainly remember wanting his wicket in Ashes Tests more than any other Australian batsman - and I don't think I was alone among England fans.

As to Benaud : I suspect if he is less honoured in this country it is probably for two reasons : First that he has been a long time retired and generations of cricket fans think of him as commentator more than player ; and second that his exploits as a very good leg spinner (a lot of the pitches he played on were not very helpful to spin bowling ) have been retrospectively downgraded as they are now seen through the prism of the more glittering career of a Greater One who came after...

Personally I think Benaud is a "must" for any HOF. (I also back Grimmett but that's another issue )

Kwini
O'Reilly is usually viewed as being the better bowler (though not, neccessarily by O'Reilly), just as Hobbs is usually see as being a better batsman than Sutcliffe (despite Sutcliffe,s superior statistics), but I don't see why that precludes either Grimmett or Sutcliffe from entry to the HoF.

Fastest bowler EVER to 200 wickets.
Higher proportion of 5 WI per innings bowled than any other spinner
Higher proportion of 10 WM per match played than any spinner other than Colin Blythe.
Average of 6 wickets per match.
Better record in matches they played together than O'Reilly
Inventor of the flipper
All achieved after his 33 birthday

How can you say no?

Hoggy,
You're very persuasive, but clearly the fastest bowler at the time to 307 Test wickets didn't make it and he was quite clearly the best on his team, perhaps the best of his era.

It becomes very subjective but I feel there will be other compelling cases and Grimmett is destined to be inducted (for me) in Round 2, but not in Round 1. (I think his age and inventions are somewhat superfluous to the debate, unless other contibutions, besides actually playing, are included in the criteria for induction.)

kwinigolfer wrote:Hoggy,
You're very persuasive, but clearly the fastest bowler at the time to 307 Test wickets didn't make it and he was quite clearly the best on his team, perhaps the best of his era.

It becomes very subjective but I feel there will be other compelling cases and Grimmett is destined to be inducted (for me) in Round 2, but not in Round 1. (I think his age and inventions are somewhat superfluous to the debate, unless other contibutions, besides actually playing, are included in the criteria for induction.)

Kwini.
Gibbs may have been the fastest to 309 wickets at the time of his retirement. But he isn't the fastest to that landmark in the history of the game. He also isn't the fastest ever to 300 wickets.
Grimmett was also the leading wicket taker in test cricket at the time of his retirement. The first bowler to take 200 wickets. Unlike Gibbs' 300 wickets, however, Grimmett reached 200 in fewer matches than ANY other bowler in the history of the game.
As for his age, I agree that that is superfluous to an extent, although it is interesting to wonder what Grimmett may have acheived if he'd been able to start test cricket a bit earlier in life. I don't, however, think that his invention of the Flipper is supurfluous to the argument. For entry to the HoF we're looking at both the players abilities and their contributions to the game. Inventing a delivery that has become a major weapon in a leg-spin bowlers armoury is a very significant contribution to the game, in my view.
So, in summary, I don't think there's any doubt that Grimmett is one of the greatest bowler's of all-time. His record shows that, far more IMO, than the record of someone like Gibbs. Grimmett also made significant contributions to the game. Therefore he should be included in the HoF.
The view that he can't be chosen because he may or may not have been as good as O'Reilly seems a little misguided to me, as I don't see why there can't be two all-time greats playing in one team in one era. After all, would you exclude Denis Compton because it was widely accepted that Hutton was a superior batsman? Or would you chose only one of the three Ws? I'm sure there are numerous other examples, but you get my point. So, choose Grimmett. You know it makes sense

lol hoggy you cant force people to vote for him.....people have given their reasons, and its up to them

I think hoggy is well aware of that fact, cf, the smiley gives it away!

Well with end of year looming I have to make a decision and at the risk of upsetting some people I've come down with a "No" to both Harvey and Greenidge.

Does this mean I think neither is good enough to win a place in the HoF ? Not entirely : They are in the ICC's version for good reason , and may well end up in this one , either now or next year through the "second round". And I won't complain. But other players that I for one think worthy of spots have already missed out , so I've eventually resolved to give an unconditional "Yes" only to those I consider pretty well indisputable - at least until I see how the list is shaping up after more groups of players are discussed.

So to confirm my final vote :
Hammond Yes
Headley Yes
Grimmett Yes
Greenidge No
Harvey No
And congratulations to all who have debated this group , it has been most interesting.

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:I've already given three YES votes - for Hammond, Headley and Grimmett. I have now decided on a YES (just) for Greenidge in the light of the powerful arguments mounted, especially by Guildford. And a regretful NO (just) for Harvey - who was a very fine player.

Just to confirm that no under-the-counter vote swapping has been done in the interests of boosting the Grimmett vote and so this remains my vote...

has everyone voted now then?

Having followed the debate closely, I have decided to go with five YES votes this week. Basically, Grimmett would be in the top 5 of my all-time spinner rankings, Greenidge and Harvey made my post-war lists of top ten openers and middle-order players respectively, while Hammond and Headley are two of the finest batsmen to have played the game (with Hammond also doubling up as a useful bowler and fine slip fielder).

I just feel we have a group of outstanding candidates this week (more so than usual) and as such have no qualms about voting them all in.

i assume thats everyone's votes now lol?

I thought we were just waiting for CF's vote for Grimmett?

i already voted

Worth a try....

i agree it was worth a try, however wont be changing my mind

Gentlemen, thanks for voting.

This round of voting saw Clarrie Grimmett, Wally Hammond and George Headley make it in to our Hall of Fame with 81%, 100% and 100% of the vote respectively.

Gordon Greenidge and Neil Harvey, with 63% and 70% respectively, miss out but remain eligible for second ballot election to our Hall of Fame when the time comes.

Next set of five candidates to go up at some point today, hopefully.

The Hall of Fame inductees thread has been updates at the 606v2 Honours Board.

Grimmett

Recount for Greenidge!

Hi Fists,

Apart from Shelsey and Alfie, I thought everyone voted YES to Greenidge. Certainly, both Kwini and Hoggy changed their provisional No's to YES votes.

?

The next 5 candidates for induction to our Hall of Fame are as follows:

Rachael Heyhoe-Flint - the second female cricketer eligible for our Hall of Fame, Flint is probably the best known female cricketer in England. She was a member of the English women's cricket team from 1960 to 1982. She was captain of England from 1966 to 1978, and was unbeaten in six Test series. She was captain when England won the inaugural Women's Cricket World Cup, held in England in 1973.

Heyhoe-Flint was chiefly a batsman. She played in 22 Women's Test cricket matches, with a batting average of 45.54 in 38 innings. She scored three Test centuries, including her highest score of 179, a world record when she scored it against Australia at the Oval in 1976, earning a draw to save the series by batting for more than 8½ hours. She was captain of the first England women's team to play at Lord's in the 1976 Women's Ashes series. She also hit the first six in a women's Test match in 1963, also at the Oval against Australia. After being replaced as England captain in 1978, she played her last Test match in the 1979 series against West Indies, but went on to play in the 1982 Women's Cricket World Cup.

Since retiring from cricket, Heyhoe Flint has been a cricket journalist and broadcaster, and after-dinner speaker. She was appointed Member of the Order of the British Empire (MBE) in 1972, and was one of the first ten women admitted to the MCC in 1999, as an honorary life member. In 2004, she was the first woman elected to the full committee of the MCC. Outside cricket, she played as goalkeeper for the England national field hockey team in 1964. She has been a director of Wolverhampton Wanderers F.C. since 1997. She has been President of the Lady Taverners since 2001. She was appointed Officer of the Order of the British Empire (OBE) in the 2008 New Year Honours. With Netta Rheinberg, she co-authored a history of women's cricket: Fair Play - the story of women's cricket.

Len Hutton - an English Test cricketer, who played for Yorkshire and England in the years around the Second World War as an opening batsman. He was described by Wisden Cricketers' Almanack as one of the greatest batsmen in the history of cricket. In 1938, he set a record for the highest individual innings in a Test match, scoring 364 against Australia, which stood for nearly 20 years. In 1952, he became the first professional cricketer of the 20th century to captain England in Tests and under his captaincy England won the Ashes the following year for the first time in 19 years. In the years immediately following the war, he was the mainstay of the England's batting.

Marked out as a potential star from his teenage years, Hutton made his debut for Yorkshire in 1934 and quickly established himself. He first played for England in 1937, and scored his record 364 in only his sixth Test. By the time the war broke out, he had established himself as one of the leading batsmen in England. However, during the war, he received a serious injury to his arm taking part in a commando training course. His arm never fully recovered, forcing Hutton to alter his batting style. When cricket resumed, he resumed his place as one of England's leading batsmen and by the time of England's tour to Australia in 1950–51, the team relied heavily on him for his batting. He was chosen as England captain in 1952 to mixed reactions, but partly owing to his effective batting, England were able to regain the Ashes in 1953. Hutton continued as captain until 1955, although his leadership was at times controversial. Worn out by the mental and physical demands of his role, Hutton retired from regular first-class cricket during the 1955 season. He was knighted for his contributions to cricket in 1956. He went on to be a Test selector, a journalist and broadcaster.

Hutton remained involved in cricket and became Yorkshire president in 1990. He died a few months afterwards in September 1990, aged 74.

As a batsman, Hutton was cautious and his style was built on a sound defence. Although capable of attacking strokeplay, both Yorkshire and England depended on him greatly for their success and awareness of this affected his style. Hutton remains statistically among the best batsmen to have ever played Test cricket (6,971 runs at 56.67). As captain of England, he also pursued a cautious approach and while he was successful, he faced criticism for his negativity and in particular for slowing the game down. He was never comfortable in the role and felt that he was not trusted by the amateurs who ran English cricket. He never became official captain of Yorkshire and tried to keep out of the clashes among members of the Yorkshire team in the 1950s.

Rohan Kanhai - a former West Indian Cricket player of Indo-Guyanese descent. He is widely considered as one of the best batsmen of the 1960s. Kanhai featured in several great West Indian teams, playing with, among others, Sir Garfield Sobers, Roy Fredericks, Lance Gibbs, and Alvin Kallicharran. C. L. R. James wrote in the New World journal that Kanhai was "the high peak of West Indian cricketing development", and praised his "adventuresome" attitude. Kanhai was part of the West Indian team that won the inaugural World Cup.

Kanhai made his Test debut for the West Indies in England in 1957 and kept wicket for his first three Tests in addition to opening the batting. Gerry Alexander took over the gloves for the last two Tests. A right-handed batsman, Kanhai scored 6,227 runs in 79 Tests at a robust average of 47.53, with his highest score of 256 coming against India in a Test at Calcutta. When Kanhai retired, his batting average was the fifth-highest of all West Indian cricketers with more than 20 Tests. He was famous for his unorthodox shots, most notably the "falling hook" shot, in which he finished his follow through lying on his back, famously in the Oval Test of 1963 when his innings of 77 won the match for West Indies. In the 1975 Cricket World Cup final, when he was grey-haired and 40, his steady half century set the platform for an explosive innings by Clive Lloyd.

Later in his career, he became West Indies captain succeeding Gary Sobers giving the team more determination and resolve. After retirement West Indies called on Kanhai as their first national cricket coach. In charge of coaching the under-19s before being assigned to the Test team, Kanhai's selection was announced at the WICBoC annual general meeting in May 1992 to start work in the autumn of 1992 "for an as yet unspecified period". He resigned in 1995 in favour of Andy Roberts.

Throughout his first class cricket career Kanhai played for British Guiana, Guyana, North of South Africa (SACBOC), Tasmania, Transvaal (SACB) in the Howa Bowl, Trinidad, Warwickshire, and Western Australia.

In his county cricket career for Warwickshire, he also played alongside Kallicharran, John Jameson, and Dennis Amiss. Kanhai scored 11,615 first class runs for Warwickshire at an average of 51.62, which is the highest for any batsman who played for the county for a considerable time.

The Indian opening batsman Sunil Gavaskar named his son Rohan after Kanhai, and wrote of Kanhai, "To say that he is the greatest batsman I have ever seen so far is to put it mildly."

The test where Rohan Kanhai scored 256, was as good as it could get, he hit 42 fours in that innings, West Indies made 614 for 5 declared and Indians replied with 124 and 154, losing by innings and 336 runs, is the biggest win (with innings win) for the West Indies and of course biggest defeat still for the Indians. This was at Calcutta.

Alan Knott - a former Kent County Cricket Club and English cricketer, as a wicket-keeper-batsman.

He played for the England Test side between 1967 and 1981, and was a Wisden Cricketer of the Year in 1970. He was particularly known for his habit of conducting limbering-up exercises at any inactive moment during a match. His major strengths as a batsman were the sweep and the cut.

Inspired by his father, he made his Kent debut in 1964 at the age of 18. He joined a long list of Kent-created wicket-keeper-batsman.

He gained his first Test cap at the age of 21, having been named Cricket Writers' Club Young Cricketer of the Year in 1965. When he made his debut, it was against the Pakistani tourists in 1967. Batting at number 8, he made a duck in his first Test, at Trent Bridge, but didn't concede a single bye in the match. He made 28 in the second match, but didn't make the starting eleven for the 1967-68 tour of the West Indies, as Jim Parks was initially preferred. However, for the fourth and fifth matches of the series, he was picked again. In the first of those, he made his first Test half-century, a score of 69 not out, and he once again excelled at wicket-keeping.

In the winter of 1968/69, again against Pakistan, he confirmed his position as England's premier wicketkeeper-batsman. He made two 50s in the series, including a score of 96 not out at Karachi when the match was prematurely ended by a pitch invasion by Pakistani fans, denying him a well-deserved hundred.

In 1970, he was Wisden's Cricketer of the Year. County captain Colin Cowdrey said:

"I think he is the most gifted and dedicated cricketer one could ever wish to play with, never satisfied with his performance and always seeking for a little more perfection."

In the 1970-71 series in Australia he was instrumental in England regaining The Ashes, taking five catches and stumping Doug Walters in the decisive Seventh Test in Sydney. In the following series against New Zealand he finally made his maiden Test century, 110 at Auckland, having missed the first match of the series, so that Bob Taylor could take the gloves as a reward for patience as reserve keeper on the four month combined tour. Knott did not miss a Test until 1977, making a sum of five centuries and twenty-eight 50s in that time.

He has the distinction of once scoring 7 runs from a single delivery in Test cricket, off Vanburn Holder in the Fourth England v West Indies Test at Headingley in 1976. Knott took a quick single to extra-cover where Bernard Julien fielded and overthrew the wicket-keeper. Knott and Tony Greig ran two overthrows before Andy Roberts, fielding at square-leg, retrieved the ball and threw it past the stumps at the bowler's end and over the long-off boundary for four more runs.

Knott helped England win the Ashes in England in 1977 but had been persuaded by England colleague Tony Greig to join Kerry Packer's World Series Cricket. This effectively put his England career on hold as the 'Packer players' were banned from Test cricket. When he returned to Tests after the end of World Series Cricket in 1980, he had very little success against a mighty West Indian side, averaging 5.14 in the series. He did not play in the tour of the West Indies that immediately followed, but was picked for the final two Tests of the famous 1981 Ashes series. Fittingly for one of England's greatest players, he ended his last Test against Australia at The Oval, with a score of 70 not out and an England series win.

Knott was known for his idiosyncratic behaviour on the field. His trademarks included always keeping his shirt collar turned up to protect him from the sun; his sleeves rolled down to safeguard his elbows when diving; and, after a tip from former Northamptonshire and England wicket-keeper Keith Andrew, warming his hands with hot water before going on the field. According to Bob Taylor, Knott preferred strong-backed gloves with full webbing and plenty of padding in the palms, wearing two pairs of Chamois inners with strips of plasticine across the palms.

In the October 2004 edition of The Wisden Cricketer magazine he was voted as the wicket-keeper in "England's Greatest post-war XI" receiving votes from 20 of the 25 panelists.

Knott scored a total of 4,389 runs at an average of 32.75 from 95 Test matches, and took 250 catches along with 19 stumpings in this time.

Harold Larwood - was an English cricket player, an extremely accurate fast bowler best known for his key role as the implementer of fast leg theory in the infamous "bodyline" Ashes Test series of 1932–33.

In 1922, at the age of 18, Larwood was invited to try playing for Nottinghamshire, where he was offered a professional contract and starred with bat and ball.

Larwood was by this stage a fearsome bowler, claimed by many observers to bowl at speeds well in excess of "90 miles per hour" (145 km/h). Frank Tyson recalled that attempts to measure his speed were highly variable, saying that "Larwood, for instance, was measured by high speed photography at between 90 and 130mph". Such speeds would match him with the fastest of modern fast bowlers, Shane Bond, Shoaib Akhtar, Shaun Tait and Brett Lee. Larwood, moreover, was also very accurate. Such a combination made Larwood the most dangerous fast bowler of his time.

In 1926, he played his first Test match against Australia in the second Test of the series, at Lord's. Taking 2/99 and 1/37, he did not secure a permanent place in the team until the 1928 series, where he took seventeen wickets, including 6/32 in the first innings of the first Test. The arrival of Donald Bradman in the Australian team saw the English cricketing hierarchy scratching their heads to devise a plan to defeat the Australian phenomenon and thus retain the Ashes trophy. Douglas Jardine, the English captain (and, like all England captains of the prewar era, a "gentleman amateur" leading a team partly made up of working-class professionals), determined that Bradman was vulnerable to short-pitched bowling, and adopted "fast leg theory". Larwood was tasked with implementing the plan, and thus the stage was set for the bodyline Test series.

By the end of the series in 1932-33, the MCC Lords celebrated the return of the Ashes back to England, not realising the damage that Larwood's bodyline bowling had caused on the fast pitches of Australia. However, in 1933, bodyline was used during the West Indies tour of England. There the MCC Lords saw for the first time that the "fast leg theory" involved in bodyline bowling was not the same as the tactic known by that innocuous name in English County Cricket. Rather, it was an extremely intimidating, premeditated plan of attack. Concerned about the worsening diplomatic relations between England and Australia as a result of this, the MCC hypocritically reprimanded Larwood and asked him to sign a Letter of Apology to the Australian Cricket Board & Players. Larwood refused on the basis that he, as a professional cricketer, was obliged to follow the directions of his captain, whose responsibility the tactics were. In fact Larwood never played cricket for England again, though he did play county cricket for Nottinghamshire until 1938. That year, he retired on medical advice. As Jardine was never asked to apologise, and Pelham Warner, the tour manager, managed to avoid the blame, Larwood felt he was being made the scapegoat for what had occurred in 1932-33.

Larwood finished his Test career with bowling statistics of 78 wickets at 28.35, from 21 Tests, including 4 five wicket hauls and 1 ten wicket haul in a match.

guildfordbat wrote:Recount for Greenidge!

Hi Fists,

Apart from Shelsey and Alfie, I thought everyone voted YES to Greenidge. Certainly, both Kwini and Hoggy changed their provisional No's to YES votes.

?

Guildford, I may well have made an error, can you carry out a recount for me please on Greenidge?

Fists of Fury wrote:The next 5 candidates for induction to our Hall of Fame are as follows:

Rachael Heyhoe-Flint - the second female cricketer eligible for our Hall of Fame, Flint is probably the best known female cricketer in England. She was a member of the English women's cricket team from 1960 to 1982. She was captain of England from 1966 to 1978, and was unbeaten in six Test series. She was captain when England won the inaugural Women's Cricket World Cup, held in England in 1973.

Heyhoe-Flint was chiefly a batsman. She played in 22 Women's Test cricket matches, with a batting average of 45.54 in 38 innings. She scored three Test centuries, including her highest score of 179, a world record when she scored it against Australia at the Oval in 1976, earning a draw to save the series by batting for more than 8½ hours. She was captain of the first England women's team to play at Lord's in the 1976 Women's Ashes series. She also hit the first six in a women's Test match in 1963, also at the Oval against Australia. After being replaced as England captain in 1978, she played her last Test match in the 1979 series against West Indies, but went on to play in the 1982 Women's Cricket World Cup.

Since retiring from cricket, Heyhoe Flint has been a cricket journalist and broadcaster, and after-dinner speaker. She was appointed Member of the Order of the British Empire (MBE) in 1972, and was one of the first ten women admitted to the MCC in 1999, as an honorary life member. In 2004, she was the first woman elected to the full committee of the MCC. Outside cricket, she played as goalkeeper for the England national field hockey team in 1964. She has been a director of Wolverhampton Wanderers F.C. since 1997. She has been President of the Lady Taverners since 2001. She was appointed Officer of the Order of the British Empire (OBE) in the 2008 New Year Honours. With Netta Rheinberg, she co-authored a history of women's cricket: Fair Play - the story of women's cricket.

Len Hutton - an English Test cricketer, who played for Yorkshire and England in the years around the Second World War as an opening batsman. He was described by Wisden Cricketers' Almanack as one of the greatest batsmen in the history of cricket. In 1938, he set a record for the highest individual innings in a Test match, scoring 364 against Australia, which stood for nearly 20 years. In 1952, he became the first professional cricketer of the 20th century to captain England in Tests and under his captaincy England won the Ashes the following year for the first time in 19 years. In the years immediately following the war, he was the mainstay of the England's batting.

Marked out as a potential star from his teenage years, Hutton made his debut for Yorkshire in 1934 and quickly established himself. He first played for England in 1937, and scored his record 364 in only his sixth Test. By the time the war broke out, he had established himself as one of the leading batsmen in England. However, during the war, he received a serious injury to his arm taking part in a commando training course. His arm never fully recovered, forcing Hutton to alter his batting style. When cricket resumed, he resumed his place as one of England's leading batsmen and by the time of England's tour to Australia in 1950–51, the team relied heavily on him for his batting. He was chosen as England captain in 1952 to mixed reactions, but partly owing to his effective batting, England were able to regain the Ashes in 1953. Hutton continued as captain until 1955, although his leadership was at times controversial. Worn out by the mental and physical demands of his role, Hutton retired from regular first-class cricket during the 1955 season. He was knighted for his contributions to cricket in 1956. He went on to be a Test selector, a journalist and broadcaster.

Hutton remained involved in cricket and became Yorkshire president in 1990. He died a few months afterwards in September 1990, aged 74.

As a batsman, Hutton was cautious and his style was built on a sound defence. Although capable of attacking strokeplay, both Yorkshire and England depended on him greatly for their success and awareness of this affected his style. Hutton remains statistically among the best batsmen to have ever played Test cricket (6,971 runs at 56.67). As captain of England, he also pursued a cautious approach and while he was successful, he faced criticism for his negativity and in particular for slowing the game down. He was never comfortable in the role and felt that he was not trusted by the amateurs who ran English cricket. He never became official captain of Yorkshire and tried to keep out of the clashes among members of the Yorkshire team in the 1950s.

Rohan Kanhai - a former West Indian Cricket player of Indo-Guyanese descent. He is widely considered as one of the best batsmen of the 1960s. Kanhai featured in several great West Indian teams, playing with, among others, Sir Garfield Sobers, Roy Fredericks, Lance Gibbs, and Alvin Kallicharran. C. L. R. James wrote in the New World journal that Kanhai was "the high peak of West Indian cricketing development", and praised his "adventuresome" attitude. Kanhai was part of the West Indian team that won the inaugural World Cup.

Kanhai made his Test debut for the West Indies in England in 1957 and kept wicket for his first three Tests in addition to opening the batting. Gerry Alexander took over the gloves for the last two Tests. A right-handed batsman, Kanhai scored 6,227 runs in 79 Tests at a robust average of 47.53, with his highest score of 256 coming against India in a Test at Calcutta. When Kanhai retired, his batting average was the fifth-highest of all West Indian cricketers with more than 20 Tests. He was famous for his unorthodox shots, most notably the "falling hook" shot, in which he finished his follow through lying on his back, famously in the Oval Test of 1963 when his innings of 77 won the match for West Indies. In the 1975 Cricket World Cup final, when he was grey-haired and 40, his steady half century set the platform for an explosive innings by Clive Lloyd.

Later in his career, he became West Indies captain succeeding Gary Sobers giving the team more determination and resolve. After retirement West Indies called on Kanhai as their first national cricket coach. In charge of coaching the under-19s before being assigned to the Test team, Kanhai's selection was announced at the WICBoC annual general meeting in May 1992 to start work in the autumn of 1992 "for an as yet unspecified period". He resigned in 1995 in favour of Andy Roberts.

Throughout his first class cricket career Kanhai played for British Guiana, Guyana, North of South Africa (SACBOC), Tasmania, Transvaal (SACB) in the Howa Bowl, Trinidad, Warwickshire, and Western Australia.

In his county cricket career for Warwickshire, he also played alongside Kallicharran, John Jameson, and Dennis Amiss. Kanhai scored 11,615 first class runs for Warwickshire at an average of 51.62, which is the highest for any batsman who played for the county for a considerable time.

The Indian opening batsman Sunil Gavaskar named his son Rohan after Kanhai, and wrote of Kanhai, "To say that he is the greatest batsman I have ever seen so far is to put it mildly."

The test where Rohan Kanhai scored 256, was as good as it could get, he hit 42 fours in that innings, West Indies made 614 for 5 declared and Indians replied with 124 and 154, losing by innings and 336 runs, is the biggest win (with innings win) for the West Indies and of course biggest defeat still for the Indians. This was at Calcutta.

Alan Knott - a former Kent County Cricket Club and English cricketer, as a wicket-keeper-batsman.

He played for the England Test side between 1967 and 1981, and was a Wisden Cricketer of the Year in 1970. He was particularly known for his habit of conducting limbering-up exercises at any inactive moment during a match. His major strengths as a batsman were the sweep and the cut.

Inspired by his father, he made his Kent debut in 1964 at the age of 18. He joined a long list of Kent-created wicket-keeper-batsman.

He gained his first Test cap at the age of 21, having been named Cricket Writers' Club Young Cricketer of the Year in 1965. When he made his debut, it was against the Pakistani tourists in 1967. Batting at number 8, he made a duck in his first Test, at Trent Bridge, but didn't concede a single bye in the match. He made 28 in the second match, but didn't make the starting eleven for the 1967-68 tour of the West Indies, as Jim Parks was initially preferred. However, for the fourth and fifth matches of the series, he was picked again. In the first of those, he made his first Test half-century, a score of 69 not out, and he once again excelled at wicket-keeping.

In the winter of 1968/69, again against Pakistan, he confirmed his position as England's premier wicketkeeper-batsman. He made two 50s in the series, including a score of 96 not out at Karachi when the match was prematurely ended by a pitch invasion by Pakistani fans, denying him a well-deserved hundred.

In 1970, he was Wisden's Cricketer of the Year. County captain Colin Cowdrey said:

"I think he is the most gifted and dedicated cricketer one could ever wish to play with, never satisfied with his performance and always seeking for a little more perfection."

In the 1970-71 series in Australia he was instrumental in England regaining The Ashes, taking five catches and stumping Doug Walters in the decisive Seventh Test in Sydney. In the following series against New Zealand he finally made his maiden Test century, 110 at Auckland, having missed the first match of the series, so that Bob Taylor could take the gloves as a reward for patience as reserve keeper on the four month combined tour. Knott did not miss a Test until 1977, making a sum of five centuries and twenty-eight 50s in that time.

He has the distinction of once scoring 7 runs from a single delivery in Test cricket, off Vanburn Holder in the Fourth England v West Indies Test at Headingley in 1976. Knott took a quick single to extra-cover where Bernard Julien fielded and overthrew the wicket-keeper. Knott and Tony Greig ran two overthrows before Andy Roberts, fielding at square-leg, retrieved the ball and threw it past the stumps at the bowler's end and over the long-off boundary for four more runs.

Knott helped England win the Ashes in England in 1977 but had been persuaded by England colleague Tony Greig to join Kerry Packer's World Series Cricket. This effectively put his England career on hold as the 'Packer players' were banned from Test cricket. When he returned to Tests after the end of World Series Cricket in 1980, he had very little success against a mighty West Indian side, averaging 5.14 in the series. He did not play in the tour of the West Indies that immediately followed, but was picked for the final two Tests of the famous 1981 Ashes series. Fittingly for one of England's greatest players, he ended his last Test against Australia at The Oval, with a score of 70 not out and an England series win.

Knott was known for his idiosyncratic behaviour on the field. His trademarks included always keeping his shirt collar turned up to protect him from the sun; his sleeves rolled down to safeguard his elbows when diving; and, after a tip from former Northamptonshire and England wicket-keeper Keith Andrew, warming his hands with hot water before going on the field. According to Bob Taylor, Knott preferred strong-backed gloves with full webbing and plenty of padding in the palms, wearing two pairs of Chamois inners with strips of plasticine across the palms.

In the October 2004 edition of The Wisden Cricketer magazine he was voted as the wicket-keeper in "England's Greatest post-war XI" receiving votes from 20 of the 25 panelists.

Knott scored a total of 4,389 runs at an average of 32.75 from 95 Test matches, and took 250 catches along with 19 stumpings in this time.

Harold Larwood - was an English cricket player, an extremely accurate fast bowler best known for his key role as the implementer of fast leg theory in the infamous "bodyline" Ashes Test series of 1932–33.

In 1922, at the age of 18, Larwood was invited to try playing for Nottinghamshire, where he was offered a professional contract and starred with bat and ball.

Larwood was by this stage a fearsome bowler, claimed by many observers to bowl at speeds well in excess of "90 miles per hour" (145 km/h). Frank Tyson recalled that attempts to measure his speed were highly variable, saying that "Larwood, for instance, was measured by high speed photography at between 90 and 130mph". Such speeds would match him with the fastest of modern fast bowlers, Shane Bond, Shoaib Akhtar, Shaun Tait and Brett Lee. Larwood, moreover, was also very accurate. Such a combination made Larwood the most dangerous fast bowler of his time.

In 1926, he played his first Test match against Australia in the second Test of the series, at Lord's. Taking 2/99 and 1/37, he did not secure a permanent place in the team until the 1928 series, where he took seventeen wickets, including 6/32 in the first innings of the first Test. The arrival of Donald Bradman in the Australian team saw the English cricketing hierarchy scratching their heads to devise a plan to defeat the Australian phenomenon and thus retain the Ashes trophy. Douglas Jardine, the English captain (and, like all England captains of the prewar era, a "gentleman amateur" leading a team partly made up of working-class professionals), determined that Bradman was vulnerable to short-pitched bowling, and adopted "fast leg theory". Larwood was tasked with implementing the plan, and thus the stage was set for the bodyline Test series.

By the end of the series in 1932-33, the MCC Lords celebrated the return of the Ashes back to England, not realising the damage that Larwood's bodyline bowling had caused on the fast pitches of Australia. However, in 1933, bodyline was used during the West Indies tour of England. There the MCC Lords saw for the first time that the "fast leg theory" involved in bodyline bowling was not the same as the tactic known by that innocuous name in English County Cricket. Rather, it was an extremely intimidating, premeditated plan of attack. Concerned about the worsening diplomatic relations between England and Australia as a result of this, the MCC hypocritically reprimanded Larwood and asked him to sign a Letter of Apology to the Australian Cricket Board & Players. Larwood refused on the basis that he, as a professional cricketer, was obliged to follow the directions of his captain, whose responsibility the tactics were. In fact Larwood never played cricket for England again, though he did play county cricket for Nottinghamshire until 1938. That year, he retired on medical advice. As Jardine was never asked to apologise, and Pelham Warner, the tour manager, managed to avoid the blame, Larwood felt he was being made the scapegoat for what had occurred in 1932-33.

Larwood finished his Test career with bowling statistics of 78 wickets at 28.35, from 21 Tests, including 4 five wicket hauls and 1 ten wicket haul in a match.

Initial reactions are:

Heyhoe-Flint-Equivocal yes. I voted yes for Clark and IMO, Heyhoe-Flint through both her playing career and subsequent contribution to cricket is, at least, Clark's equal.

Hutton-Unequivocal yes. Another who could easily have been included in the initial 30. One of the greatest opening batsmen of all-time. First professional captain of England, and winner of the Ashes in '53 and 54/5, as well as many other achievements.

Kanhai-Less unequivocal yes. Good middle-order batsman who was a Warks. great, but would he get in an all-time WIndies XI, (or even 2nd XI)?

Knott-Back to being unequivocal. Yes. One of the greatest glovemen of all-time and a sound lower-order batsman.

Larwood-Equivocal no. Open to persuasion but, despite 'Bodyline' his record isn't really that great. That may, of course, have something to do with bowling for most of his career at a certain Mr. Bradman, but others had to as well, and some had much better records.

I guess Larwood is a bit of a strange one, and a tough one at the same time.

Few bowlers can claim to have had the 'antidote' to The Don, and I'd say that a bowling average of 28 is actually quite impressive, given who he was bowling to. I don't imagine many bowlers from any era would have come out of such a contest with overly flattering statistics, but it remains to be seen whether people think he did enough to warrant inclusion in our Hall of Fame. I'm undecided at this moment in time, given the several extenuating factors that must be considered with regard to his record perhaps not being that of what you'd expect from a truly elite bowler. The Bradman equation is a the crux of this debate, you feel.

initial thoughts:

Hutton and Knott are both clear YES votes for me. Hutton's achievements are too many to name, while Knott is right up there with the very best all-time keepers (in fact I rank him n°1).

Undecided for the moment on the other three, so shall wait to see the arguments.

Fists pen-pictures and subsequent initial research are certainly evocative!

Initial takes:
Hutton: Yes - Like Hammond, difficult to believe he wasn't in the top thirty.
Knott: Yes - At least as good as any all-round wicket-keeper in history, albeit a different type than Gilchrist. Suerior to Evans in every respect except drinking.
Heyhoe-Flint: Without wishing to appear sexist, feel that there should be a different category for the Ladies. Certainly, up to Belinda Clark Heyhoe was the pre-eminent woman cricketer of all time.

As for Kanhai and Larwood, my first take is very definitely Yes, but strongly feel that this is where excellence in different eras is extraordinarily difficult to compare. Kanhai would certainly be in my All-Time W.I. Team (ahead of Lloyd for instance), while Larwood was at least as good as any English hostile fast bowler in the pre-Fifties era.

Curiously, only Hutton (2nd team) and Larwood (3rd team) are in Benaud's top three all-time teams, no Knott, no Kanhai.

kwinigolfer wrote: Kanhai would certainly be in my All-Time W.I. Team (ahead of Lloyd for instance).

Ahead of Richards, Lara, Headley, Weekes, Worrell, Walcott, Sobers?

i will think long and hard about these before voting for defo.

at the moment the only one, i can give a defintie yes to is Hutton, i will have to really think about the others.....

CF - you a Bob Marley fan?