In the aftermath of spot fixing convictions.....

by anu_d Thu 03 Nov 2011, 6:32 pm

one british bookie and 3 pakistani cricketers have been convicted and sentences handed out:

charged were as cricinfo states:

The four men had been charged with conspiracy to accept corrupt payments, and conspiracy to cheat in regard to the Lord's Test against England in August 2010,

in the aftermath :

--ICC's anti-corruption unit is going to open investigation on the remaining tests of that series

--I believe since corruption/ cheating and spot fixing has been confirmed now...that Lords test should be ANULLED.....as an official test, the individual runs/ wkst scored and it's points removed from ICC rankings

by Demon Racer Thu 03 Nov 2011, 6:36 pm

Thats never gonna happen

by anu_d Thu 03 Nov 2011, 6:45 pm

Demon Racer wrote:Thats never gonna happen

let's see what comes out of the rest of the series.
I have a fear that if more matches are found tainted, the entire series may be anulled.

and rightly so.....what's the sanctity of a game which has been proven ground for cheating and corruption

by anu_d Thu 03 Nov 2011, 6:48 pm

there is a precedence of match results being changed retrospectively.....and actually between the same two countries

by Mad for Chelsea Thu 03 Nov 2011, 6:52 pm

yeah but it was promptly changed back again wasn't it? Don't think they'll change the results, they didn't even do that when there was proper match-fixing (as opposed to spot fixing) which actually influenced the results of matches (e.g. Eng vs SA in 2000 I think).

by anu_d Thu 03 Nov 2011, 6:57 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:yeah but it was promptly changed back again wasn't it? Don't think they'll change the results, they didn't even do that when there was proper match-fixing (as opposed to spot fixing) which actually influenced the results of matches (e.g. Eng vs SA in 2000 I think).

they didn't jail the earlier convicts either Shocked

there is a first time to everything......and actions would have to be based on rationale.

you can't declare a competition affected by cheating and corruption....and retain the results

the red and the blue just don't go together

by Hoggy_Bear Thu 03 Nov 2011, 7:00 pm

anu_d wrote:
Mad for Chelsea wrote:yeah but it was promptly changed back again wasn't it? Don't think they'll change the results, they didn't even do that when there was proper match-fixing (as opposed to spot fixing) which actually influenced the results of matches (e.g. Eng vs SA in 2000 I think).

they didn't jail the earlier convicts either

there is a first time to everything......and actions would have to be based on rationale.

you can't declare a competition affected by cheating and corruption....and retain the results

the red and the blue just don't go together

Why, if the cheating and corruption didn't effect the result?

by Mad for Chelsea Thu 03 Nov 2011, 7:01 pm

sure you can, given the spot fixing didn't actually affect the results of the matches. Now if it were to emerge that Pakistan were in fact guilty of worse than maybe you could make a case, but I think if they were to change results here then you would have to go back in history and change the result of every match affected.

by anu_d Thu 03 Nov 2011, 7:10 pm

Why, if the cheating and corruption didn't effect the result?.

--if cheating / corruption is discovered in competitive exams ( such as for public services, universties)...the entire exam is anulled and reconducted.

--If cheating / corruption is discovered in commercial tenders, the entire tender is annuled and re-tendered.

the product of cheating just not acceptable in civilized societies.
It's a matter of time cricket will have to accept...the same principles.

Going back and altering all results could be done.....but even if is not or cannot be done...doesn;t mean that it should not be done for present and future also

by anu_d Thu 03 Nov 2011, 7:15 pm

i can undertsand some resistance to the inevitable, especially by English fans.....because this might mean losing the ICC ranking points from a few tests....which might put Eng's top standing on real thin ice

by Guest Thu 03 Nov 2011, 7:17 pm

anu_d wrote:i can undertsand some resistance to the inevitable, especially by English fans.....because this might mean losing the ICC ranking points from a few tests....which might put Eng's top standing on real thin ice

Or the reverse?
The fans who dont like England are so keen to see England "standing on real thin ice."

by djlovesyou Thu 03 Nov 2011, 7:20 pm

You're the first person to mention rankings and ranking points with respect to this test series and whether it should be annulled or not.

You're getting a little bit desperate if that's what you're clinging to in terms of India having top spot.

Also, you can't nullify that Lord's test. Think of poor old Stuart Broad losing his only test hundred. Surely a non-biased and honest cricket fan as yourself could see how unfair it would be on him.

by anu_d Thu 03 Nov 2011, 7:21 pm

Or the reverse?
The fans who dont like England are so keen to see England "standing on real thin ice.".

true.
those who are not convinced ( I will not say don't like) with England, will get a chance to point out:

1) ICC ranking points earned in game ( and possibly games) declared affected by cheating and corruption

2) wins against an uninterested / injury stricken Indian side.

and hence Eng purely "situational No.1"

by JDizzle Thu 03 Nov 2011, 7:23 pm

Exactly. My first thought wasn't "Oh no, England will lose some ranking points", my first thought was "Oh no, Stuart Broad will lose his 169 which is probably going to be his best ever batting performance in a Test match". The spot fixing didn't affect the result and even when Cronje had his matchi fixing incident, the result of that match still stand so there is no precedent for it being anulled.

by anu_d Thu 03 Nov 2011, 7:24 pm

djlovesyou wrote:You're the first person to mention rankings and ranking points with respect to this test series and whether it should be annulled or not.

true... there is a first person behind everything said for the first time.

You're getting a little bit desperate if that's what you're clinging to in terms of India having top spot.

your perception...but I will not debate that

Also, you can't nullify that Lord's test Think of poor old Stuart Broad losing his only test hundred. Surely a non-biased and honest cricket fan as yourself could see how unfair it would be on him.

the game and spirit of cricket is bigger than individual acheivements.

by djlovesyou Thu 03 Nov 2011, 7:30 pm

I was just teasing about Stuart Broad Anu. I tried to make it obvious by calling you non-biased and honest.

by anu_d Thu 03 Nov 2011, 7:33 pm

djlovesyou wrote:I was just teasing about Stuart Broad Anu. I tried to make it obvious by calling you non-biased and honest.

bias and honesty are judged by the rationale used..... and not because it happens to be against one's favourite country( regardless of the rationale)

by Guest Thu 03 Nov 2011, 8:04 pm

Can you post in the normal font please.

by anu_d Thu 03 Nov 2011, 8:10 pm

Sainty wrote:Can you post in the normal font please.

can you stick to the topic please.

I am merely using options provided by the forum

by Guest Thu 03 Nov 2011, 8:13 pm

anu_d wrote:
Sainty wrote:Can you post in the normal font please.

can you stick to the topic please.

I am merely using options provided by the forum

• If instructed by staff to do something, you are to comply. Failure to comply with Moderator or Admin instructions will result in punishment.
https://www.606v2.com/t1019-site-rules

I suggest you stop arguing when asked to not do something.
If you wish to take it further, send me a pm.

by Guest Thu 03 Nov 2011, 8:16 pm

This is also a work safe forum. We don't allow use of different fonts. If you can't abide by an order by an admin or mod, then clearly you're in the wrong place, anu.

by anu_d Thu 03 Nov 2011, 8:19 pm

Y I Man wrote:
anu_d wrote:
Sainty wrote:Can you post in the normal font please.

can you stick to the topic please.

I am merely using options provided by the forum

• If instructed by staff to do something, you are to comply. Failure to comply with Moderator or Admin instructions will result in punishment.
https://www.606v2.com/t1019-site-rules

I suggest you stop arguing when asked to not do something.
If you wish to take it further, send me a pm.

Dear moderator,
thx for pointing me to the rules ......I am aware of them now.

Rule 4 extract..."

if you have a complaint, report it in a civil manner via a PM."

anotehr rule:

All members, including Moderators and Admins, must follow these simple rules when using the forums:

Please follow your own rules and if you have a complain express it in PMs
thx

by anu_d Thu 03 Nov 2011, 8:20 pm

Sainty wrote:This is also a work safe forum. We don't allow use of different fonts. If you can't abide by an order by an admin or mod, then clearly you're in the wrong place, anu.

per the rules.....if you have a complain please express in PMs

I suggest you edit and remove all complains from the forum and discuss further in PM

by Guest Thu 03 Nov 2011, 8:20 pm

I don't care, anu.

You were asked to do something, now do it.

Case closed.

by anu_d Thu 03 Nov 2011, 8:23 pm

Sainty wrote:I don't care, anu.

You were asked to do something, now do it.

Case closed.

Sorry you don't have a point here per the rules of the forum.

by Guest Thu 03 Nov 2011, 8:24 pm

anu for god's sake stop before you get yourself in more trouble.

by Guest Thu 03 Nov 2011, 8:25 pm

PM for Anu

by Mad for Chelsea Fri 04 Nov 2011, 12:07 am

anu my friend word of advice:

what the admins say you do, it's no point arguing with them about admin matters. If they tell you to stop posting in blue, just do it. They run the forum, have put a huge amount of effort into it, and have made it a great place. This place is meant to be work safe, hence why they asked you to stop using the blue fonts. Why not use slanted in that case? Same effect...

by anu_d Fri 04 Nov 2011, 8:44 am

Mad for Chelsea wrote:anu my friend word of advice:

what the admins say you do, it's no point arguing with them about admin matters. If they tell you to stop posting in blue, just do it. They run the forum, have put a huge amount of effort into it, and have made it a great place. This place is meant to be work safe, hence why they asked you to stop using the blue fonts. Why not use slanted in that case? Same effect...

thx point taken
I do appreciate the effort put in by the site owners and moderators....to create and maintain a platform like this.

I actually misunderstood a few things and went on an unnecessary tangent

regards

by Guest Fri 04 Nov 2011, 9:00 am

Salman Butt and Amir appealing the length of their sentences

IMO they werent long enough!

by anu_d Fri 04 Nov 2011, 9:10 am

cricketfan90 wrote:Salman Butt and Amir appealing the length of their sentences

IMO they werent long enough!

I still believe it is wrong to turn a sporting offense into a criminal proceeding.
Pakistani board acted spinelessly...should have taken the matter in their hands.

sporting disciplinary actions of the severest order.....like Azhar, Cronje, Jadeja etc....were the appropriate actions.
Marlon Samuels returning this year....had a 2 year ban.....not criminal trials were made against him.

Criminal proceedings opens up a pandora's box-----because they are are inconsistent with precedences and also no unform law accepetd by all boards for criminal proceedings in such cases is in existence.

by **Fists of Fury** Fri 04 Nov 2011, 9:13 am

Anu, you seem to be missing the key point here.

The offences took place in the UK. Under UK law fixing, fraud, whatever you want to call it is a criminal offence with a jail term as punishment. The law was applied.

I don't care whether they're Pakistani, Mongolian or Samoan, if they come here and are in breach of our laws then they are subject to our justice system dishing out whichever punishment they see fit.

Yet again you are talking about something of which you know very little, and are somehow trying to make a point that is completely redundant.

by anu_d Fri 04 Nov 2011, 9:17 am

Fists of Fury wrote:Anu, you seem to be missing the key point here.

The offences took place in the UK. Under UK law fixing, fraud, whatever you want to call it is a criminal offence with a jail term as punishment. The law was applied.

I don't care whether they're Pakistani, Mongolian or Samoan, if they come here and are in breach of our laws then they are subject to our justice system dishing out whichever punishment they see fit.

Yet again you are talking about something of which you know very little, and are somehow trying to make a point that is completely redundant.

I may not know enouhg.....so please elaborate if you are throuhgly conversant.

1) does UK law on frauds....covers international sporting events?
2) If yes...does it bring under it's purview non-UK international sportsmen, not resident in UK under it's purview?

from my undertsanding of legalities....even if the answer to 1) is yes.......by no means answer to 2) can be yes.
heck even if the crime was bombing 2 would apply if there is a bilateral extradition treaty between the two countries.

by Davie Fri 04 Nov 2011, 9:18 am

anu_d wrote:I still believe it is wrong to turn a sporting offense into a criminal proceeding.

That's where you are wrong. It wasn't merely a sporting offence, it was a criminal offence as soon as they accepted payments.

If they had just decided to throw in no-balls for fun (or whatever other reason), then the onus is on the cricket board to punish them for bringing the game into disrepute. As soon as they accepted corrupt payments then it becomes a matter of criminal law and out of the hands of the cricket authorities.

Those cricket authorities have a chance to add their own punishments later once criminal sanctions have been applied but criminal law will trump sporting authorities every day

by anu_d Fri 04 Nov 2011, 9:27 am

Davie wrote:
anu_d wrote:I still believe it is wrong to turn a sporting offense into a criminal proceeding.

That's where you are wrong. It wasn't merely a sporting offence, it was a criminal offence as soon as they accepted payments.

criminal offence under what country's law?
what is the law in West Indies ( Marlon Samuel's case) or SA ( Cronje case) or India ( azhar case) or salim malik (Pak)

Merely disciplinary action by the sport body.

by **Fists of Fury** Fri 04 Nov 2011, 9:27 am

anu_d wrote:
Fists of Fury wrote:Anu, you seem to be missing the key point here.

The offences took place in the UK. Under UK law fixing, fraud, whatever you want to call it is a criminal offence with a jail term as punishment. The law was applied.

I don't care whether they're Pakistani, Mongolian or Samoan, if they come here and are in breach of our laws then they are subject to our justice system dishing out whichever punishment they see fit.

Yet again you are talking about something of which you know very little, and are somehow trying to make a point that is completely redundant.

I may not know enouhg.....so please elaborate if you are throuhgly conversant.

1) does UK law on frauds....covers international sporting events?
2) If yes...does it bring under it's purview non-UK international sportsmen, not resident in UK under it's purview?

from my undertsanding of legalities....even if the answer to 1) is yes.......by no means answer to 2) can be yes.
heck even if the crime was bombing 2 would apply if there is a bilateral extradition treaty between the two countries.

1) Yes, UK law covers everything that happens on these shores. It doesn't matter whether it is a tiddlywinks match-fixing scam or a high profile murder case, they're all subject to UK criminal law and are dealt with accordingly. If such a law is broken our courts of law immediately over-rule any sporting bodies, as Davie rightly says, and it becomes a whole new case in its own right.

2) Yes, if the offence is committed on these shores, or has any sort of effect on people on these shores, then the subjects can be tried under UK law. Obviously if the accused were in Pakistan at the time we could issue a plea for extradition, which if rejected we could do nothing about, but if they're in this country and are arrested then they're subject to our law just as any average UK citizen would be.

by anu_d Fri 04 Nov 2011, 9:40 am

1) Yes, UK law covers everything that happens on these shores. It doesn't matter whether it is a tiddlywinks match-fixing scam or a high profile murder case, they're all subject to UK criminal law and are dealt with accordingly. If such a law is broken our courts of law immediately over-rule any sporting bodies, as Davie rightly says, and it becomes a whole new case in its own right.

2) Yes, if the offence is committed on these shores, or has any sort of effect on people on these shores, then the subjects can be tried under UK law. Obviously if the accused were in Pakistan at the time we could issue a plea for extradition, which if rejected we could do nothing about, but if they're in this country and are arrested then they're subject to our law just as any average UK citizen would be..

fist thanks.

1) I undertsand now that fraud/ cheating in sports is criminal offence in UK.
But not in many other countries.....so the treatment of such a sporting offense is lacking consistency/ unformity across cricket playing nations.

2) You just can't extradite someone to UK...if the percieved offense in UK is not recognized by the other country as a criminal offense, even if there is an extradition treaty.

and that is where pak board erred.....they should not have allowed their players to be tried in UK for what is not a criminal offense in pak.
I believe it is not a criminal offense in Pak because salim malik was never tried legally in a court...simply banned from cricket by the board

by Davie Fri 04 Nov 2011, 9:41 am

Are you trying to say that fraud is not a criminal offence in Pakistan?

by anu_d Fri 04 Nov 2011, 9:45 am

Davie wrote:Are you trying to say that fraud is not a criminal offence in Pakistan?

are you confirming that fixing a match of cricket is considered to be a criminal offense in Pak?

by Davie Fri 04 Nov 2011, 9:47 am

I'm asking a simple question. Is fraud a criminal offence in Pakistan? If so, then yes, fixing a cricket match for money would fall under that

by talkingpickle Fri 04 Nov 2011, 9:56 am

anu_d wrote:
1) Yes, UK law covers everything that happens on these shores. It doesn't matter whether it is a tiddlywinks match-fixing scam or a high profile murder case, they're all subject to UK criminal law and are dealt with accordingly. If such a law is broken our courts of law immediately over-rule any sporting bodies, as Davie rightly says, and it becomes a whole new case in its own right.

2) Yes, if the offence is committed on these shores, or has any sort of effect on people on these shores, then the subjects can be tried under UK law. Obviously if the accused were in Pakistan at the time we could issue a plea for extradition, which if rejected we could do nothing about, but if they're in this country and are arrested then they're subject to our law just as any average UK citizen would be..

fist thanks.

1) I undertsand now that fraud/ cheating in sports is criminal offence in UK.
But not in many other countries.....so the treatment of such a sporting offense is lacking consistency/ unformity across cricket playing nations.

2) You just can't extradite someone to UK...if the percieved offense in UK is not recognized by the other country as a criminal offense, even if there is an extradition treaty.

and that is where pak board erred.....they should not have allowed their players to be tried in UK for what is not a criminal offense in pak.
I believe it is not a criminal offense in Pak because salim malik was never tried legally in a court...simply banned from cricket by the board

They broke the law in the UK, they should be tried in this country for a crime they have committed, regardless of whether its recognised as a crime in Pakistan. if it really isnt recognised as a crime in Pakistan then it just shows how corrupt Pakistan is.

by Guest Fri 04 Nov 2011, 10:02 am

Fraud is a criminal offence in Pakistan:

http://pakistancriminalrecords.com/tag/fraudulent/

by anu_d Fri 04 Nov 2011, 10:10 am

Davie wrote:I'm asking a simple question. Is fraud a criminal offence in Pakistan?

==>>It is in every country

If so, then yes, fixing a cricket match for money would fall under that

==>.that is your assumption.
Please get confirmatory evidence to support your assumption.

against your assumption...i can give you examples of Salim malik...not tried criminally
marlon samuels from WI...not tried criminally
Cronje and Azhar....not tried criminally
Most countries are NOT trying criminally sportsmen found involved in match fixing

by jro786 Fri 04 Nov 2011, 10:14 am

anu_d wrote:i can undertsand some resistance to the inevitable, especially by English fans.....because this might mean losing the ICC ranking points from a few tests....which might put Eng's top standing on real thin ice

as an indian fan myself, i think if they annulled the series over spot-fixing then it's a waste of time, the series is over and the punishment has been delivered however if no punishment was handed down from icc then i would think it would be a good idea to annul the series if there was more than this occasion

by talkingpickle Fri 04 Nov 2011, 10:21 am

anu_d wrote:
Davie wrote:I'm asking a simple question. Is fraud a criminal offence in Pakistan?

==>>It is in every country

If so, then yes, fixing a cricket match for money would fall under that

==>.that is your assumption.
Please get confirmatory evidence to support your assumption.

against your assumption...i can give you examples of Salim malik...not tried criminally
marlon samuels from WI...not tried criminally
Cronje and Azhar....not tried criminally
Most countries are NOT trying criminally sportsmen found involved in match fixing

Just because in different countries they werent tried doesnt mean the UK should follow suit and not go through with legal proceedings. They broke the law in the UK and are being rightly punished for it!

by **Fists of Fury** Fri 04 Nov 2011, 10:22 am

They wouldn't annul the result, purely because the match itself wasn't fixed, it was just the no-balls, hence the term 'spot fixing'.

Pakistan didn't throw the game, the aim was simply to make money from random occurences that did little to impact the course of the match.

by anu_d Fri 04 Nov 2011, 10:26 am

Fists of Fury wrote:They wouldn't annul the result, purely because the match itself wasn't fixed, it was just the no-balls, hence the term 'spot fixing'.

Pakistan didn't throw the game, the aim was simply to make money from random occurences that did little to impact the course of the match.

any product declared as affected by fraud/ cheating/ corruption....is automatically null and void...be it a commercial tender or a university exam...regrdless of how much impact the cheating/ corruption / fraud had on the overall result.

by Hoggy_Bear Fri 04 Nov 2011, 10:29 am

anu_d wrote:
Fists of Fury wrote:They wouldn't annul the result, purely because the match itself wasn't fixed, it was just the no-balls, hence the term 'spot fixing'.

Pakistan didn't throw the game, the aim was simply to make money from random occurences that did little to impact the course of the match.

any product declared as affected by fraud/ cheating/ corruption....is automatically null and void...be it a commercial tender or a university exam...regrdless of how much impact the cheating/ corruption / fraud had on the overall result.

Care to explain how you would cheat in a University exam without effecting the result or, at least, attempting to efeect the result?

by Guest Fri 04 Nov 2011, 10:30 am

Proof that fixing a cricket match for money is deemed fraud:
(I cant believe that is even being questioned, its obvious!)

Pakistan Penal Code (Act XLV of 1860)

24. "Dishonestly".
Whoever does anything with the intention of causing wrongful gain to one person or wrongful loss to another person, is said to do that thing "dishonestly".

25. "Fraudulently".
A person is said to do ,a thing fraudulently if he does that thing with intent to defraud but not otherwise.

415. Cheating:
Whoever, by deceiving any person, fraudulently or dishonestly induces the person so deceived to deliver any property to any person, or to consent that any person shall retain any property, or intentionally induces the person so deceived to do or omit to do anything which he would not do or omit if he were not so deceived, and which act or omission causes or is likely to cause damage or harm to that person 161[or any other person] 161 in body, mind, reputation or property, is said to "cheat".

http://www.pakistani.org/pakistan/legislation/1860/actXLVof1860.html

by anu_d Fri 04 Nov 2011, 10:30 am

Just because in different countries they werent tried doesnt mean the UK should follow suit and not go through with legal proceedings. They broke the law in the UK and are being rightly punished for it! .[quote]

UK can decide what is criminal in their own country only...for citizens and residents...not for visitng sportsmen...long gone back to their countries.

and can TRY to advice / preach/ or even dicate to others also....

in the end to take UK's advice on whether sportsmen should be tried criminally in UK...... or not is upto the soverign contries ( that's why they are called soveriegns)

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